If Young Link is in Project M, what happens to Toon Link?

[AceGamer]

Oh, sorry. I just seemed like that is what you meant. My apologies.

Hm, I will need to get that then when Project M is release on PAL.

No worries, it's cool

 

[McLefty]

What i mean is, all the melee characters should be in project m. I know Dr. Mario is an alternate costume, but i think young link would need his own slot. I think the project m team needs to listen to the community more. No, i'm not saying they should add every character from every game and tv show, what im saying is that they should bring back ALL the melee characters. Since Dr. Mario, Roy, and Mewtwo are already in the game, why not just bring back the remaining two? They could even give Dr. Mario his own slot as well, and the roster would look like this

See how nice it looks?

 

[Narpas_sword]

You need stronger reasoning than an appeal to tradition.

What would young link add?
What would pichu bring?

 

[The Merc]

You need stronger reasoning than an appeal to tradition.

What would young link add?

HIs mask Transformation. His Hyrule Warriors moveset. More Cuteness

Fierce Deity.

Need I say more.

 

[steakhouse]

You need stronger reasoning than an appeal to tradition.

What would young link add?
What would pichu bring?

sd remix pichu is incredible. 3 interesting changes : long wavedash, downB kills to the sides (incl. lightning bolt), dair is meteor. If not for that, pichu bros., an ICs style character, would be incredible as well.

Young Link's case is harder to make because TL is pretty much Young Link+. A moveset based on his MM masks would be cool; for example, up B could launch you into the air, transforming you into a deku for a brief period, then revert the transformation upon landing.

 

[AceGamer]

sd remix pichu is incredible. 3 interesting changes : long wavedash, downB kills to the sides (incl. lightning bolt), dair is meteor. If not for that, pichu bros., an ICs style character, would be incredible as well.

Young Link's case is harder to make because TL is pretty much Young Link+. A moveset based on his MM masks would be cool; for example, up B could launch you into the air, transforming you into a deku for a brief period, then revert the transformation upon landing.

A long wavedash, side killing down B and meteor dair aren't something new to Smash. Then again it is hard to bring something truly new at this point unless you pull a Lucario lol.
And the problem with basing YL off MM is that transforming requires another slot, although I'm not sure if it's transforming in general or transforming and having a moveset that needs another slot

 

[gmBottles]

A long wavedash, side killing down B and meteor dair aren't something new to Smash. Then again it is hard to bring something truly new at this point unless you pull a Lucario lol.
And the problem with basing YL off MM is that transforming requires another slot, although I'm not sure if it's transforming in general or transforming and having a moveset that needs another slot

I don't think he was implying that those features are new to Smash, just new to the character.

 

[steakhouse]

A long wavedash, side killing down B and meteor dair aren't something new to Smash. Then again it is hard to bring something truly new at this point unless you pull a Lucario lol.

you read half my post

And the problem with basing YL off MM is that transforming requires another slot, although I'm not sure if it's transforming in general or transforming and having a moveset that needs another slot

you did not read my post

 

[AceGamer]

You said he could transform into a deku for a brief period for an up B for example and I said I wasn't sure if it's transforming at all that requires another slot or transforming and having different moves

 

[steakhouse]

ooooooooooooh

i just think neither of us understand the other

my idea is just a brief model swap for the duration of a move. Not like Shang Tsung (MK) or Convinct (Newgrounds Rumble) transformation, just change the model for a brief period.

Anyways, to answer OP, Young Link in Hyrule Warriors looks like a really good basis. He's super different from Melee Young Link / PM Toon Link.

For starters, he could use the 2-handed Great Fairy Sword, that alone would bring an "easy" change to all his normals, while his specials could be managed by masks : up-B deku flower, side B goron roll, neutral B zora rangs, down B could be a shine-like blast from the Blast Mask that would self harm in a Snake kinda way, but have a cooldown (as it does in majora's mask) to avoid infinite recovery.

Final smash is the obvious fierce diety, but could be changed to just equipping the double helix sword if modelling the fierce deity, or coding a transformation, would be a hassle

 

[xLithiumx]

Honestly, I just wish Tink had Young Link's B-air because imo, Tink's is trash. At least Young Link's could combo. Only problem is that he'd be more similar to Link, who I find not as fun as Tink.

 

[steakhouse]

Tink bair is 100% fine.

 

[Stormghetti]

Tink bair is 100% fine.

You're right, Toon Link's b-air can make good combos but for God's sake, Yink's b-air is more viable and makes more (no pun inteded) "link"able combos.

 

[Ledemduso]

What would pichu bring?

Well, what did Roy bring? He's worse than Marth and was brought back. Pichu is worse than Pikachu and wasn't. Equality for everyone (obviously)!

...when Project M is release on PAL.

We all keep dreaming... we keep dreaming.

 

[archedmaid]

Young Link would need complete reworking, so never expect him to be the same if he ever is official in PM.

Neutral B: Sling Shot, this would act similar Falcos Blaster as it would be shooting Deku Nuts (not the item).

Forward B: Sword Charge, this would act like Dededes Jet Hammer.

Up B: Cucco, this would act similar to Snakes Cypher except it would be a Cucco instead.

Down B: Bombchu, that acts the same as the Hothead item except explodes on contact, and goes a shorter distance.

His grab would use the Goron Bracelet essentially turning his grab more like Donkey Kongs.

I also was thinking of the Hylian Shield being on his back with the same affect as the shield would while holding it. It would also give super armor on crouch sorta like Bowser.

 

[Kenith]

But here's the problem. If you're going to make Young Link a completely new character moveset wise, why not just add an actual new Zelda character?
Since his moveset would be derived from Majora's Mask you could have Skull Kid anyways.

 

[archedmaid]

But here's the problem. If you're going to make Young Link a completely new character moveset wise, why not just add an actual new Zelda character?
Since his moveset would be derived from Majora's Mask you could have Skull Kid anyways.

Exactly.

 

[mimgrim]

Well, what did Roy bring? He's worse than Marth and was brought back. Pichu is worse than Pikachu and wasn't. Equality for everyone (obviously)!

This post reeks of ignorance.

 

[The Merc]

We all keep dreaming... we keep dreaming.

I've sort of lost my interest in PM. Nothing about it really excites me anymore.

But here's the problem. If you're going to make Young Link a completely new character moveset wise, why not just add an actual new Zelda character?
Since his moveset would be derived from Majora's Mask you could have Skull Kid anyways.

We really need Ghirahim to be in Smash . Though Skull Kid would have been awesome.

Still want Young Link

 

[devilshead]

From what I know, PM was made to make brawl more like Melee, to add back the lost characters in one way or another, and to restore a more Melee style of gameplay. As I understand it, this was mainly for nostalgia, and because of discontent over the brawl playing style. This means that Young Link needs to be put back in. However, i can see not wanting 3 clones of the same person, and I can understand the idea that adding young link is unnessisary, but if you think about it, the entire project is unnessisary. He is a fun, fairly popular character brawl forgot, and should be added, and he should be different than Yink. I have 4 ideas for how adding him should be done, three of which those who don't want 3 separate links could possibly get behind.

The first would be to just add him, but change his moves so that b is sling shot, etc. like was mentioned before with fierce diety being final smash.

The second would be to make him an alt skin for Tink that would act sort of like dr. Mario, changing the appearance size and shape (and possibly name) retaining most the move set, while doing minor changes to some of the other moves. For example, replace the bow with a slingshot, or making the bow and arrows look more like Yink's (sort of like how dr Mario throws pills not fireballs), having it effect only a couple of the moves, and the final smash. (Have the final smash be like triforce slash, doing the same basic moves, and doing the same damage, but have it where during the move he is in the form of fierce diety, and doesn't have the glowing triforce cage, and in activation he puts on the mask instead of the hand flash thing...). So it would still essentially be the same character, just with a different look to both character and some of the moves, and would still essentially play the same.

The third way would be to pull a leaf out of Brawl's book, and put Yink, and Tink in the same box, the way Zelda and sheik are in brawl, with each having their different, maybe semi-similar move sets, with the person able to choose which one they are in a manner similar to that of sheik and zel in regular brawl.

The fourth and final way would be to put him as a sort of alt that holding something like z on a GameCube remote would cause him to show instead of Tink. Sort of like what they did with stages...

 

[mimgrim]

Your understanding of what Project M is and what it goal was (and what the goal currently is as the goal has changed overtime) is flawed.

The project originally started on the simple basis of wondering if they could give Falco back his Melee Shine. And the goal has never been to add in lost characters from Melee.

And now in the about section of the Project M homepage you can see what their current goal, or goals to be precise, currently is.

http://projectmgame.com/en/about

Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone. The following is a list of the main aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee that inspired and have carried over into Project M:

A fast-paced game
with flowing, natural movement
where the player has a great degree of control over their character due to the technical skill that they've achieved.
The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.
Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

In short, Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes.

Their focus on Melee is solely the gameplay aspect and even there they don't plane to be a 1:1 clone.

So the argument that Project M trying to make Brawl more like Melee only holds true in the gameplay aspect (and even then not completely 100% identical) but never has their goal actually been trying to add in lost characters from Melee.

Mewtwo and Roy mainly happened because of their really big fan base and how popular they are.

 

[devilshead]

Thank you for helping set me straight. However, just so you know, I never mentioned making project M a complete clone of Melee. Making project M into a total clone of Melee would suck, and would be a tragic waste of potential. I'm not sure anyone would be foolish enough to support that, especially since doing so would cost them several fun brawl characters that were never in Melee, and would also cost them truly epic things like the final smash moves.

 

[devilshead]

Also, you did not mention anything about how my ideas might or might not work, nor their advantages and/or faults, and I would really like to hear your, and anyone else's take on them.

 

[mimgrim]

I didn't mention anything about your ideas because of the simple fact that I think Young Link would be competently and utterly pointless to put in Project M no matter what they would do with him. :L

 

[devilshead]

If that is truly your opinion, why come here, unless you are just deliberately looking for a chance to insult people? Especially considering what the topic of this is about, and has become? Are you just some troll? If you are, kindly restrain yourself from future use of this. If you are not, maybe you should rethink your purpose here. Also, you shouldn't forget that the entirety of project M was originally made as a sort of just for fun experiment/challenge to see if they could make brawl more like Melee. You should also keep in mind that doing many of the things they have done, (including many of their most popular actions), like splitting Pokemon trainer up, adding costumes to characters, adding new/old characters, and pretty much everything else in this project has been pretty much pointless. In addition, just because YOU can't see any point or use for adding something, be it the addition of young link, or a new game feature, or whatever, that does NOT mean someone ELSE, or one if the devs can't. Also, not everything has a point or use! Some things are made for no point at all, or just for fun. Think about it.

(I must apologize for any typos or grammatical errors, as I am unused to using a phone for things like this)

 

[devilshead]

Oh, and FYI, in the post before last, I was asking for thoughts on my ideas for adding young link, while still retaining toon link could be done, as in how viable a method each would be, if they could be applied, what problems would they cause/encounter, if said ideas could be applied to the creation of other characters, or other aspects of the game... I was not looking for opinions of if young link should be added or not, which should be apparent if you read it.

 

[mimgrim]

Lmao.

This guy.

 

[InevitableH]

If that is truly your opinion, why come here, unless you are just deliberately looking for a chance to insult people?

Why come here, to the Toon Link board, asking what you would change about Toon Link, an already developed character, were Young Link, a character that heavily influenced Toon Link's development (a spiritual successor), be added to the game?

By saying "Young Link must be in PM to meet some arbitrary goal and needs Toonlink's movesets, so what will be Toonlink's new moveset be?", you are rubbing a lot of people the wrong way. So don't be so shocked when people call you out, especially when there already five Zelda reps and two Links.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

What i mean is, all the melee characters should be in project m. I know Dr. Mario is an alternate costume, but i think young link would need his own slot. I think the project m team needs to listen to the community more. No, i'm not saying they should add every character from every game and tv show, what im saying is that they should bring back ALL the melee characters. Since Dr. Mario, Roy, and Mewtwo are already in the game, why not just bring back the remaining two? They could even give Dr. Mario his own slot as well, and the roster would look like this

See how nice it looks?

No pichu though XD. He was basically a joke character.

 

[Kart8Smash4]

It's really quite easy how to have all three Links and have all three be different: leave Link as he is (gale boomerang included).
For Young Link: no hookshot, because he can't use it in Ocarina (he'll just have to grab with his hands); normal boomerang; slingshot; and change bombs to bombchus. A Majora's Mask version of him would be quite fun, so really it would be four Links.
Toon Link: Change the hookshot to the grappling hook; his Up-B is now the deku leaf, his Down-B is now the skull hammer; his B is ice or fire arrows.
Tada!

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Young Link without a hookshot would be super cool. It'd create an archetype of character that I've wanted to see but hasn't revealed itself yet in Smash. Think about it, he'd have his bair and nair shield pressure + bomb shenanigans and now grab mixups as well. Factor that in with his pretty good dash dance, his quick wavedash and even threatening moves like dsmash and dash attack (to an extent), and you've got a character that can range with projectiles and go aggro as well. He'd be kind of like a Fox-Link hybrid. I think the closest we have to someone that ranges out opponents and goes aggro is ZSS, but she isn't projectile based nor does she feel like Young Link did in Melee. ZSS feels more airy, fluid, and light (i.e. float like a butterfly, sting like a bee), while this character design would feel piercing and more striking rather than elegant and smooth. I think it'd be a great addition to the game, game play-wise and nostalgia-wise.

 

[mimgrim]

Toon Link: Change the hookshot to the grappling hook; his Up-B is now the deku leaf, his Down-B is now the skull hammer; his B is ice or fire arrows.

No.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

While I think the addition of Young Link would be cool, it's not right to take an existing character and change their moveset just to make it work better. We'll just have to try harder to make Young Link both familiar and unique at the same time.

 

[Kart8Smash4]

Young Link without a hookshot would be super cool. It'd create an archetype of character that I've wanted to see but hasn't revealed itself yet in Smash. Think about it, he'd have his bair and nair shield pressure + bomb shenanigans and now grab mixups as well. Factor that in with his pretty good dash dance, his quick wavedash and even threatening moves like dsmash and dash attack (to an extent), and you've got a character that can range with projectiles and go aggro as well. He'd be kind of like a Fox-Link hybrid. I think the closest we have to someone that ranges out opponents and goes aggro is ZSS, but she isn't projectile based nor does she feel like Young Link did in Melee. ZSS feels more airy, fluid, and light (i.e. float like a butterfly, sting like a bee), while this character design would feel piercing and more striking rather than elegant and smooth. I think it'd be a great addition to the game, game play-wise and nostalgia-wise.

Your enthusiasm is getting me even more pumped about playing as him. I really do hope that they do it.

 

[Kart8Smash4]

While I think the addition of Young Link would be cool, it's not right to take an existing character and change their moveset just to make it work better. We'll just have to try harder to make Young Link both familiar and unique at the same time.

What about Wolf, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard? They all had moveset changes for Project M, and I found them to be great. I'm sure other character had moveset changes, but those are the ones that I know. Particularly with Wolf, they made him so much better.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

While that's true, those characters were changed prior to their debut in PM. Toon Link is already a character who has a developed metagame and a playerbase who doesn't want to lose their character. It's too late in the development cycle to change Toon Link. However, there are changes that can be made to Young Link to make his playstyle drastically different.

Already, removing the hookshot means that he has better options to go aggressive, which contrasts with Link's and Toon Link's defensive playstyle. If the PMDT were to give Young Link even more changes that make him suitable for close-range play, such as a more short-range boomerang with better start-up (sounds op... but hey, it's possible to balance it and keep it useful), better tilts, and possibly a better short hop and/or fast fall then it would enable Young Links to play closer to the opponent. These suggestions are all of course ideas, and having all of these buffs without nerfs would probably be broken.
P.S. His fair in Melee sucked, but was kinda good at zoning, a buff to it would make it incredibly useful.

Giving Young Link something like slingshot or Deku Nuts (which surprisingly haven't been seen as an item in Smash... weird) would obviously center his game closer to the opponent since Deku Nuts are tossed right in front of him and I can't see slingshots shooting as far as arrows or rangs anyways... without having to be charged. I don't know. Maybe make Deku Nuts give stun, something like Tranqs or ZSS paralyzer/dsmash. Wouldn't that be really cool? Having Young Link be able to zone with projectiles, space with well-placed aerials, go aggro shield pressure, combo well, and have sick edgeguards? Or make Deku Nuts a grounded kill move since he clearly lacked that in Melee (we have dsmash, but it's mostly only good for edgeguarding or killing spacies... in fact his only "kill moves" outside of dair and lengthy uair strings are just edgeguards in all).

**** Lost a lot of my comment b/c nightly backup :/ Oh well. It was getting long anyways.

 

[Kart8Smash4]

While that's true, those characters were changed prior to their debut in PM. Toon Link is already a character who has a developed metagame and a playerbase who doesn't want to lose their character. It's too late in the development cycle to change Toon Link. However, there are changes that can be made to Young Link to make his playstyle drastically different.

Already, removing the hookshot means that he has better options to go aggressive, which contrasts with Link's and Toon Link's defensive playstyle. If the PMDT were to give Young Link even more changes that make him suitable for close-range play, such as a more short-range boomerang with better start-up (sounds op... but hey, it's possible to balance it and keep it useful), better tilts, and possibly a better short hop and/or fast fall then it would enable Young Links to play closer to the opponent. These suggestions are all of course ideas, and having all of these buffs without nerfs would probably be broken.
P.S. His fair in Melee sucked, but was kinda good at zoning, a buff to it would make it incredibly useful.

Giving Young Link something like slingshot or Deku Nuts (which surprisingly haven't been seen as an item in Smash... weird) would obviously center his game closer to the opponent since Deku Nuts are tossed right in front of him and I can't see slingshots shooting as far as arrows or rangs anyways... without having to be charged. I don't know. Maybe make Deku Nuts give stun, something like Tranqs or ZSS paralyzer/dsmash. Wouldn't that be really cool? Having Young Link be able to zone with projectiles, space with well-placed aerials, go aggro shield pressure, combo well, and have sick edgeguards? Or make Deku Nuts a grounded kill move since he clearly lacked that in Melee (we have dsmash, but it's mostly only good for edgeguarding or killing spacies... in fact his only "kill moves" outside of dair and lengthy uair strings are just edgeguards in all).

**** Lost a lot of my comment b/c nightly backup :/ Oh well. It was getting long anyways.

That's a valid point. I guess what I really want is the addition a more custom moves in the (hopefully inevitable) Smash 4 mods. That way, those that want to keep their Toon Link as he is can, and those that want less of a clone can change things. Maybe it'll even be an official addition. That's highly doubtful, but possible. They could even sell it as DLC as they do everything else.



Deku nuts as a DownB would be a great alternative to bombchus. The deku nuts are in Smash 4, though. The slingshot definitely should not go as far as arrows. These changes would make Young Link his own character, which is very deserving.

I usually give up when I lose My posts; I often find it too much to retype.

 

[mimgrim]

The only Special I would accept changed into a whole different move is Neutral Special (Fire Arrow) and that is only because it has very little relevance in his current kit because Boomerang and Bomb are 10x better in pretty much every way So it being changed into something that has more relevancy to his kit I wouldn't complain, but he doesn't need it.

Also the PMDY have already gone on record to say that they will not be doing Project M on Smash 4 so if a mod were to be created on Smash 4 it won't be by the Project M team.

Also Deku Nut is already a spawnable item in Brawl/Project M as an FYI.

 

[Jamble]

Nothing, really. I imagine Young Link would just be more of a straight clone of Link. Which I really, really hope they don't end up doing. Toon Link in PM I'm finding plays a lot more like Young Link when it comes to the general movement, weight, and physics, but all of his non-special attacks are just so vastly different that he really does play as a completely different character. That being said, the two characters would "fill" the same little niche, and I feel like it'd be a really redundant design decision that didn't add much to the game.

So yes, while their physics and weight are much more similar, their movesets are so different that they ARE incredibly different characters. I just personally feel that again, YLink's addition would add nothing to the game that TLink doesn't already, niche/combat style-wise unless they really did a complete overhaul of him, making him more centered around like.. his MM incarnation.