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If you want to bring Smashboards back...it's up to you

PracticalTAS

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
34
If you have write privileges on this subforum, and you seriously want smashboards to become a community hub again like it was back in the melee/brawl days, then it's up to you to make that happen.

---

I've seen a lot of people lament that smashboards is dying, but nobody really wants to do anything about it. I don't blame you; it's harder to build a following and get an audience here than it is through reddit/twitter/twitch/discord/literally anywhere else. You can't monetize your **** here. You're busy. We're esports now. I know. I know.

But if you want the sense of community back, if you want a centralized and easily searchable repository of tech and frame data back, if you want 300-page-long year-old general discussions back, if you want smashboards back...it's up to you.

Maybe I'm wrong and you don't actually miss smashboards, you just miss the good old days when the community was smaller and more close-knit. Smashboards is emblematic of those days, so you might just be nostalgic but ok with smashboards falling by the wayside. In which case, carry on.

But if I'm right, and you want this website back, now is the perfect time. With the new smash coming out soon, there will be millions of new eyeballs on us (that includes you, Melee scene; we *will* grow alongside Smash Switch in whatever form it takes) and they *will* be looking for community hubs.

You're all tastemakers in this community. You have your audiences, and they're about to become much larger if you play your cards right. The current people will listen to you, and the new people will listen to them. If you really want to bring smashboards back, start using it again.

And if you're fine with letting it die, just keep doing what you've been doing.

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P.S. My pre-TAS smashboards account is over 10 years old now (holy ****!), so it's not like I'm saying this without understanding what smashboards meant. I've been around the block a few times.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
The problems I personally see with Smashboards are the same as before, and they aren't really any less in this VIP subforum than in the other subforums of Smashboards: good, insightful, helpful posts get buried under heaps of low-quality / banter posts and threads.

The potential I see for the future for Smashboards is mainly in one specific area: archival of game knowledge. Be it in form of @Dr Peepee's very thorough write-ups on many different subjects, frame data or game mechanics explanation threads, these are what the structure of Smashboards is suited for better than Reddit / Twitter etc.
With these hallmark threads of Smashboards, a problem has been that the good information is scattered among hundreds of thread pages, is not indexed at all, and nowadays people mostly read it in form of screenshots of the posts archived and organized in Google Drive.

My hope was for a VIP board to select members based on their ability and willingness to write only thoughtful, helpful, competent posts free of banter, which could then easier be organized here directly, so that people can read comfortably and efficiently on Smashboards directly.
That was not the decision made, as has showed in the one discussion thread that was created here. People have been given privileges without demonstrating their responsibility to use them appropriately, so there isn't really any incentive for them to refrain from banter.

Not that I think banter is necessarily bad, it's just out of alignment with what I think Smashboards should be focused on, at least as much as Melee is concerned. Knowing that other members here are probably not that motivated about adding to insightful threads but rather joke around does not motivate me personally to contribute here, to put it bluntly.
On the other hand, I agree with you that those who want to see change should make that change themselves. My point is just that it's more likely and easier for people to start contributing if they are in a positive environment with a clear focus and motivated leadership. With this subforum as it is now, there is no clear focus or goal. It's just "community figures write with each other and everyone can read it".
 

Warchamp7

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The potential I see for the future for Smashboards is mainly in one specific area: archival of game knowledge. Be it in form of @Dr Peepee's very thorough write-ups on many different subjects, frame data or game mechanics explanation threads, these are what the structure of Smashboards is suited for better than Reddit / Twitter etc.
With these hallmark threads of Smashboards, a problem has been that the good information is scattered among hundreds of thread pages, is not indexed at all, and nowadays people mostly read it in form of screenshots of the posts archived and organized in Google Drive.
This is something I want to see as well, but it's up to those high level players to have those discussions and share that knowledge.

My hope was for a VIP board to select members based on their ability and willingness to write only thoughtful, helpful, competent posts free of banter, which could then easier be organized here directly, so that people can read comfortably and efficiently on Smashboards directly.
This was done, as evidenced by your and PracticalTAS PracticalTAS presence here right now. You are both among multiple intelligent and thoughtful members of the community. If there are people you feel also deserve a presence here and were not given it, please let me know. Not everyone has a Smashboards account that actually matches their current tag, so some people will get missed or overlooked.

That said, I don't think that such a concept need be mutually exclusive to giving top players the space to also discuss. Some players like PPMD are far more likely to foster good discussion of course, but I don't think anyone at the top level should have been outright passed over.

That was not the decision made, as has showed in the one discussion thread that was created here. People have been given privileges without demonstrating their responsibility to use them appropriately, so there isn't really any incentive for them to refrain from banter.

Not that I think banter is necessarily bad, it's just out of alignment with what I think Smashboards should be focused on, at least as much as Melee is concerned. Knowing that other members here are probably not that motivated about adding to insightful threads but rather joke around does not motivate me personally to contribute here, to put it bluntly.
As I said above, I think everyone of note deserved a chance. Some people demonstrated pretty quickly that they are not likely to use this space as intended. Access here is a privilege meant for the betterment of the community and it will be treated as such. Some people have already lost their access

On the other hand, I agree with you that those who want to see change should make that change themselves. My point is just that it's more likely and easier for people to start contributing if they are in a positive environment with a clear focus and motivated leadership. With this subforum as it is now, there is no clear focus or goal. It's just "community figures write with each other and everyone can read it".
I agree 100%. It's clear you have a vision for this section and I am happy to give you the necessary tools to foster that if you desire
 

Scribe

Sing, sing for ourselves alone.
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I'm probably the least experienced person in this subforum and this is sort of going off in a different direction than the current conversation thread, but if I may make a suggestion, I'd like to say that, as permanent and searchable as the forums are, the overall structure isn't very useful as reference material for mechanics, strategy, etc.

While I'd hate to step on both SSBWiki's and our own toes, I feel like we could certainly benefit from having a system reference wiki as a companion for the forums, much like what Dustloop and Shoryuken have. The forums are great for discussing community matters and metagame development, but navigating the forum is somewhat clunky when it comes to finding more non-interactive information on stuff like frame data, guides on how to use a character's tools, combo guides, video databases, etc. Pinned posts that link to each other are useful when you're just looking at one character, but navigating the site while trying to look at info for multiple characters or for both characters and universal stuff can be kinda clunky.

I think on top of trying to hone in on what this subforum might be best for, I think we might also want to figure out what the forums as a whole are best for. Personally, I think that's somewhere in the realm of discussing both community matters and metagame development, and providing a permanent record thereof.
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I'm not sure how/when it happened, but apparently I got posting privileges in this forum, which I'm glad about because I think I have a lot of good ideas as to how SmashBoards fits into the community in 2018.

First thing that I think needs to be established is what SmashBoards is not. SmashBoards' main trait is its long form discussion threads as a standard forum which limits it in some ways, but also gives it possibilities that are never going to work on other sites. If you want your daily Smash news, chances are you're going to Reddit. Reddit's upvote system and algorithms push interesting topics to the top and they gradually fall as the original post ages and gets displaced by newer news. SmashWiki and to a lesser extent, Liquipedia, are for data archiving. The flexibility of adding charts, pictures, and other sorts of formatting make these resources very simple and easy to use. The comprehensiveness of certain pages is sometimes lacking, but any page touched by Kadano or other knowledgeable community members becomes a gold mine.

The biggest mistake SmashBoards could make is to try to "out-news" Reddit or "out-archive" Wiki sites. Those services are what they are designed for, so you'll have a hard time convincing the general population to come to SmashBoards for those things when there are sites specialized for it. Don't get me wrong, I think it's totally fine for SmashBoards to have a news section and archive certain kinds of data, but that can't be the main focus. It should be more of a supplementary thing to the rest of the site. SmashBoards' main focus should be on discussion since that is where it trounces every other medium. Maintaining conversations on Reddit and Twitter for more than a few responses is all but impossible, and for Wikis there's no discussion at all. Twitch chat is the antithesis of productive conversation, and YouTube comments aren't much better. Discord and Facebook groups probably come the closest, but Discord's chat-style doesn't suit discussions, and Facebook groups aren't that accessible. What I'd like to see SmashBoards do is capitalize on this conversational drought by piggybacking off of all the content that's being produced.

With that in mind, the question is obviously how? Top players are always saying how much they miss SmashBoards, but then why don't they post here? There's a lot of reasons, but I think the biggest one is incentive. Armada's videos get streamed on Twitch, uploaded to YouTube, shared on Twitter, and posted to Reddit. With all these mediums, none offer any real valuable discussion based on the content of the video. As someone who prefers long-form discussions, it's not uncommon to find me posting walls of text on YouTube comment sections or Reddit threads, but the environment simply doesn't encourage actual discussion. I may get 100 likes on a YouTube comment and have literally no responses to discuss the issue, which is kind of lame. SmashBoards needs to reach out to top players directly and implement a way to publish content to the forums quickly and easily. If you take YouTube videos and other content then publish them to the forums in the form of individual threads, people can comment on and discuss the content.

For example, here is a relatively standard video from Armada:

It would be awesome if Armada could come to SmashBoards, paste a link into a form, and have the video converted into a thread automatically. The thread's title can be the video's title, the video can be embedded at the top of the post, then below the video you can include the video's description or prompt the thread creator to include a few questions or comments to spark discussion. Then we can have players of all skill levels properly discuss the video instead of throwing away comments on YouTube and Reddit. This not only gives SmashBoards a role to fill, but it incentivizes top players to use SmashBoards because they are able to share their content. The more people discussing Plup's Genesis 5 win in Armada's SmashBoards thread, the more people you have watching Armada's YouTube content and subscribing to him.

To increase the incentive even more, player profiles need to cater towards content creators. Right now, when you check out a profile, it's a weird amalgamation of different social media tools. I have users I'm following or being followed by on the left. I have a status box with a 140 character limit. And I have a wall where people can effectively publically DM me. I shouldn't have to explain how obsolete all of these tools are with Twitter and Facebook in the picture. I'm the biggest SmashBoards junkie you'll find in 2018, and I've literally never thought to update my "status" on the site. I'm not even sure anyone would see my status update within the week. Instead, I'd like to see a player's profile page be designed to promote them and their content. A profile absolutely needs to link the player's Facebook, Twitter, and Patreon. Linking their Twitch and YouTube would be nice, but I'd take it a step further and embed these things right on the page.

If I click Armada's profile while he's streaming on Twitch, it seems unforgiveable for SmashBoards to not have an embedded Twitch window with a big red "LIVE" begging me to click play. Hopefully you are starting to see why Armada would be much more inclined to post stuff to SmashBoards if it means he's got his 10 most recent videos in Melee Discussion, all of the threads are filled with players discussing the topic at hand, and then clicking his profile from any of those threads directly leads into his social media, Twitch, and YouTube content. Ideally, users would be able to customize how their profile appears. Players who stream daily can embed their Twitch at the top of their profile while those who are more YouTube focused can have all of the content they published to the forums listed in order from newest to oldest. Hell, even someone who blogs or Tweets can have these things embedded onto the page.

Along with this shift in focus to being a resource for content discussion, I'd like to see SmashBoards rearrange their forum structure as well. Call me crazy, but I think even in SmashBoards' prime there were a few too many forums that needed to be trimmed. Reddit covers all of Melee's news and it's just a single page with 50 links. SmashBoards has an individual forum for all 26 characters... It's basically April and there are still several forums without a single post since last year. Like, c'mon now, that should not be happening. Even in the Falco forums which is probably one of the more active areas, there is only really discussion in one thread. Every other thread is from last year. This isn't just a waste of space; it creates this terrible feeling of everything and everyone being spread out. I don't know what kind of traffic SmashBoards gets, but if you are actually active in a forum it is hard to believe it's anything but dead.

The forums need to be reorganized so everything Melee related is in a single forum. There's absolutely no reason Melee discussion can't house all Melee-related threads since there's probably ~50 active threads, many of which have <10 comments and are mostly garbage that shouldn't stick around on the front page anyway (e.g. "Is Hbox the GOAT?", "Who should I main (Im Noob)", "My tier list"). While all the Melee threads can go in one place, that's no reason to leave things disorganized like on Reddit. Threads should more heavily utilize the colored prefixes in front of titles. If I want to make a thread about Falco, instead of posting it in the Falco forums with 10 active users, I should post it in Melee discussion with every active user, and slap a beautiful blue "Falco" prefix right in front of the title. Allow users to filter posts by prefixes, and voila, suddenly you still have the Falco forums just be selecting the Falco prefix. When Armada uploads his video about Falco in doubles, he can publish his thread with the Falco prefix. If I decide to leave Melee Discussion filtered just to display Falco and Marth threads, I will see his thread, click it, and get to immediately watch his video embedded in the thread. Then I get to go comment about something I noticed in his gameplay or respond to something Armada wrote himself to spark discussion.

I genuinely think SmashBoards still has a place in the Melee community, it just needs to restructure some things, and I have more ideas beyond the ones I laid out already. Just for example, I think there's plenty of archive-related things that SmashBoards actually is suited better for than a SmashWiki. Local Power Rankings in particular are something that don't have a very good spot. I have seen them on SmashWiki, but you basically just have to type in the region and search manually. There's no way to search PRs or PR history for certain players, and I doubt smaller regions like college campuses even have their PRs on there at all. Having a PR system and integrating it with a new SmashBoards ranking system that uses Smash.gg results (not sure if that info is open to use for stats however) would be a great resource for the community that wouldn't really fit anywhere else. Smash.gg has done a great job branching out to TOs and has tons of information, but I'm not sure they're interested in compiling stats and working with ranking/rating systems. This might be something they'd be willing to outsource to SmashBoards.

Hopefully none of this came off as nonsensical rambling since I can see everything very clearly in my head, but I may not have described it properly. Let me know what you guys think and feel free to shoot an idea down if you see a logistical problem or limitation that I might not be aware of.
 
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PracticalTAS

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
34
If there are people you feel also deserve a presence here and were not given it, please let me know.
I don't know how many of these people already have write privileges here but:

Melee Frame Data Nerds

@Vestboy_Myst
https://smashboards.com/members/tipo-mastr.21573/ aka Typo
https://smashboards.com/members/dan-salvato.205226/ aka Dan Salvato
@Achilles1515
@tauKhan
https://smashboards.com/members/vesne.134474/ aka Vesne aka Evsen
Gentlefox Gentlefox
@schmooblidon
@Stratocaster
@UnclePunch
Alexspuffstuff (can't find @)
Remix (can't find @)

Melee Stats Nerds

@Ambisinister
https://smashboards.com/members/farge.241258/ aka Dingusmaster
Gimmedatwheat (can't find @)
https://smashboards.com/members/ovenn.261354/ aka Ovenn
https://smashboards.com/members/chroma.189065/ aka Chroma (not 100% sure if this is the right account)
edwinbudding (can't find @)
https://smashboards.com/members/343.216338/ aka tl343 aka algebra
Fairfax (can't find @)
https://smashboards.com/members/miketastic5.224357/ aka Pikachu942
SaveAsUntitled (can't find @)
https://smashboards.com/members/ycz12.21174/ aka ycz
Firepuff12 (can't find @)
@KayB

Also most of the people I can't find don't have accounts, I'll reply or edit below if they register/tell me who they are.

Edit:

Remix is @Dorito Remix
 
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Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Magus doesn't seem to have writing privileges here yet, too. https://smashboards.com/members/magus420.12573/

Also, Bones0 Bones0 , in reply to your point about ssbwiki being better for archival, while that is true for certain generalized content like character frame data (active frames, hitbox properties etc.), for more specific content, especially things like micro-situation analysis, it's not the right place at all. The ssbwiki could, however, include links on its character pages for specific well-written insightful posts written here on Smashboards, which I think would be a good combination.
 

Scribe

Sing, sing for ourselves alone.
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Magus doesn't seem to have writing privileges here yet, too. https://smashboards.com/members/magus420.12573/

Also, Bones0 Bones0 , in reply to your point about ssbwiki being better for archival, while that is true for certain generalized content like character frame data (active frames, hitbox properties etc.), for more specific content, especially things like micro-situation analysis, it's not the right place at all. The ssbwiki could, however, include links on its character pages for specific well-written insightful posts written here on Smashboards, which I think would be a good combination.
I'd suggest creating a separate system reference document-style wiki for frame data and stuff, if only because using SSBWiki as a system reference document for stuff like frame data on top of what it's already used for (more of a historical archive of the series, content featured in it, and the competitive scene) would get kinda cluttered and unfocused.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
To clarify, when I mentioned archivable content, I was mostly referring to numbers-in-charts data. I think moveset frame data is the best example. It's very clear how much more clean and stylish this page is compared to my own SmashBoards thread that cites it (albeit it's lacking the actual numbers, but you get the point). Ideally, I actually would prefer SmashBoards to have a wiki section, but I think the wiki-style formatting and editing system are crucial, and I didn't feel justified in requesting SmashBoards to completely overhaul their site for better archival purposes when we already have other sites for that.

All I know is, just from managing that one page of archived data, I've had to go back multiple times to fix broken images and redo formatting as the coding changed. And honestly, I think frame data is accessed so often and is so important that it should have its own section on the site. It's kinda silly that even if I'm already on SmashBoards, the quickest way to get to a hitbox thread is to type "falco hitbox thread" into my address bar.

When we start talking about less objective content like PP's best posts in his thread or full-fledged guides, I definitely agree SmashBoards can make that work with a simple list of links. I know Melee Library already has something to this effect, but the fact that it's not on SmashBoards has left countless amazing posts to slip through the cracks because the people writing them aren't encouraged to submit them, and I think having a single thread archiving quality posts on different subjects is totally doable.

@Stratocaster 's compendium is the closest thing SmashBoards has to a Melee Library, but it hasn't been updated since 2014, which can hardly be criticized considering how infrequently it is probably used relative to its actual value. Even the pinned section of Melee Discussion is redundant, disorganized, or just plain useless. Most of the pinned threads should be referenced in the reference/compendium thread, and the rest shouldn't be pinned at all. This might not be a big deal except for the fact that people naturally want to skip over the best reference thread we have because it's surrounded by so much clutter.
 

Gentlefox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 6, 2013
Messages
47
I'd suggest creating a separate system reference document-style wiki for frame data and stuff, if only because using SSBWiki as a system reference document for stuff like frame data on top of what it's already used for (more of a historical archive of the series, content featured in it, and the competitive scene) would get kinda cluttered and unfocused.
I created meleewiki.com for this purpose, but as you would imagine, it's very difficult to say "Here's a blank wiki, please help me fill in all the frame data about Melee." Some people have shown interest, but it's hard to get momentum going. I spent like 10 hours inputting all the character attributes in, and nobody really cared.

In response to everyone else, I agree that PP'esque discussion threads would be a great thing. For example: Fox-Puff. As Leffen has stated elsewhere, it's easy to get hundreds of low-level players speculating about the MU, but I haven't seen an intelligent discussion about it between knowledgeable players. The thread could go over things like if and when lasers are worthwhile, different approaches to the MU and how they work out in practice, etc. so that players and theorycrafters can refer to them before pointlessly speculating. Things marked as viable or non-viable could be further studied by frame-data experts to see if they are actually too strict of a timing, if the inputs can be optimized, etc.
 

Scribe

Sing, sing for ourselves alone.
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I created meleewiki.com for this purpose, but as you would imagine, it's very difficult to say "Here's a blank wiki, please help me fill in all the frame data about Melee." Some people have shown interest, but it's hard to get momentum going. I spent like 10 hours inputting all the character attributes in, and nobody really cared.

In response to everyone else, I agree that PP'esque discussion threads would be a great thing. For example: Fox-Puff. As Leffen has stated elsewhere, it's easy to get hundreds of low-level players speculating about the MU, but I haven't seen an intelligent discussion about it between knowledgeable players. The thread could go over things like if and when lasers are worthwhile, different approaches to the MU and how they work out in practice, etc. so that players and theorycrafters can refer to them before pointlessly speculating. Things marked as viable or non-viable could be further studied by frame-data experts to see if they are actually too strict of a timing, if the inputs can be optimized, etc.
Yeah. I think that sort of thing would be especially useful once the new Smash game comes out, just because of how much unexplored depth there'll be - it might not follow the same format, .

And as for working on a wiki, I guess the first place I'd start is asking folks from other communities who've done the same what their general procedures are for getting everything up and running, especially when they have multiple games to cover.
 
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