• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

If you could make one (or more) change to Mii Gunner...

Skailler

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
29
Location
Why do you wanna know?
NNID
Skailler
First of all: If this doesnt belong here or already exists, Im sorry. Tell me and Ill lock this. Im also aware that balance patches propably wont happen anymore, this is just hypothetical.


Anyways... This is exactly what the thread title suggests: What change(s) would you make to Guest Size Mii Gunner if you could? I think it would be interesting to hear some more experineced players than I am speak up and discuss what Mii Gunner could be like if certain changes were made. Personally, Id either add kill power to Super Missiles, add Missile Cancelling and/or make FThrow a kill throw at about 150%. Giving Grenade its auto-explosion on contact with another projectile back would be neat as well, but its not that neccessary imo. So, what do the experts think?
 
Last edited:

AEMehr

Mii Fighter
Moderator
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
7,702
Location
SoCal
Gunner's multi-hit moves linking better. Up Smash moreso imo.
 

Protom

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Messages
1,511
Location
Brooklyn, New York
NNID
Toonfearow
3DS FC
1521-4412-3019
^ that
and also an overall 2~3% damage output buff on her throws, as it's not like they're super amazing for killing or comboing, and all of them doing 5% is kinda meh..
Obviously a lot of other stuff would be great, but I feel the only big buffs needed are towards multi hits and throws..
 
Last edited:

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
I would reduce the endlag of down throw by 5 frames, make the hitboxes of reflector, flame pillar, and ftilt match the animation (this will make reflector into a more reliable combo breaker and make all of the moves better at keeping opponents away), and make the smashes connect better.
 

HermitHelmet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
290
Location
Newcastle, UK
NNID
Hermit_Helmet1
Make Reflector come out Frame 1

forreal, you can't JC it and it has a ton of endlag, gives us a reason to use it over better recovery (vortex) and bomb (stupidly good move)
 

Skailler

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
29
Location
Why do you wanna know?
NNID
Skailler
Make Reflector come out Frame 1

forreal, you can't JC it and it has a ton of endlag, gives us a reason to use it over better recovery (vortex) and bomb (stupidly good move)
Well, it is a reflector, so theres already a reason. It also is Frame 3 iirc, so basically it can be a pseudo-Luigi Nair in terms of pressure escaping I guess.
 

marteen_

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 19, 2016
Messages
33
Location
Maryland
NNID
martinthelee
- Jab has it's hits link together better.
- Forward tilt's hitbox matches it's animation better. Far ends of the attack should deal minimal knockback.
- Down Smash and Up Smash has it's hits link together better.
- Forward Air has a shorter autocancel frame, allowing ground level fairs to be easier to do.
- Up Air doesn't last as long, making it more usable.

- Charge Shot can be charged midair.
- Charge Shot does more damage.
- Flame Pillar lingers longer.
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
- Jab has it's hits link together better.
- Forward tilt's hitbox matches it's animation better. Far ends of the attack should deal minimal knockback.
- Down Smash and Up Smash has it's hits link together better.
- Forward Air has a shorter autocancel frame, allowing ground level fairs to be easier to do.
- Up Air doesn't last as long, making it more usable.

- Charge Shot can be charged midair.
- Charge Shot does more damage.
- Flame Pillar lingers longer.
Are you talking about reducing the lag on up air or are you talking about reducing the amount of time that the hitboxes last? The long lasting hitboxes of up air are one of the most useful parts of the move, since it lasts almost as long as an airdodge (it catches airdodges unless they are perfectly timed).
 

Zoramine Fae

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
227
Location
United States of Go Screw Yourself
3DS FC
2895-8088-7214
Here's what I really want, and I know the list is heavy but I'd like a bunch of things to generally make Mii Gunner better. She holds a close place in my heart. If anyone wants to tell me what isn't necessary, tell me.


General Attack Changes

- Decrease Jab's FAF Frame into the following hits so it is impossible to attack out of it, as well as having the second hit drag opponents inwards to connect the final hit easier. Currently characters can just attack out of it with invincible attacks such as True Shoryuken, Marth's Up Special, and Sheik's everything. Damage increase as well to 1.5%, 2%.

- Make final hit of Jab be one single blast instead of being an odd multi-hit with the first hit dealing less damage and the second carrying a bit more. Final hit doing 6-7% overall would be nice, too. Slightly increased hitbox radius so it is more useful, as well.

- Forward Tilt can be weaker at the tip but stronger at the base to make it more worth using. Also, adding an electrical attribute to it could be helpful.

- Down Smash first hit has lower knockback and a higher launching angle, connecting into the second hit easier and becoming untechable. This increases its viability of a move. Damage isn't needed to be touched, it's similar on par to Cloud's Down Smash. An increase of range on the hits could also be easier to a bit more match the attack's animation.

- Overall damage increase to looping hits and final hit of Forward Smash and Up Air to make them more useful and viable as options, as currently Forward Smash is extremely weak and only really kills if charged and near the ledge before 100%.

- Forward Air needs its FAF reduced. Seriously. Using it offstage basically is death since it has nearly a second of lag on it.

- Down Air has better spiking hitboxes, sourspot does more % but sweetspot has reduced % but compensated higher knockback.



Grab and Pummel/Throw Changes

- Make Mii size affect grab hitbox (I'd like this as a general change) in order to benefit Miis that have bad sizes. Also a general size increase to Mii Gunner's grab would be nice.

- Either increase the Pummel's speed to match a character such as Roy's or increase its damage to 3% per hit. Right now it's merely a lackluster thing you might do at insane percents and only get one off before doing a throw.

- Forward Throw gets a damage buff from 2%, 3% to a flat 6% throw forwards with average stats, and gets a knockback increase and a reduced upwards angle for tech chasing. Back Throw goes from 2%, 3% to 1%, 7% and the laser causes electrical damage, with reduced knockback as compensation. Up Throw changes from 2%, 3% to 1%, 6% and has a reduced FAF frame so it can link into Up Air at moderate percents. Down Throw... Eh, it's fine other than going from 5% to 7%. General throw damage increases are nice, especially considering size changes this to even worse amounts.



Special Changes

Charge Shot- Decreased shot speed but increased damage to differentiate from Samus's Charge Shot, burf'd (Buff/Nerfed). Electrical Attribute and reduced shield damage for more shield stun but same shield damage would be nice.

Laser Blaze- SIGNIFICANTLY reduced lag after use.

Grenade Launch- Fine as is. No need for changes.

Flame Pillar- Blast has reduced knockback and hits more frequently, catching opponents and locking them in similar to Ness's PK Fire. However, has increased KBG to compensate and a high SDI multiplier, making it easy to escape from but at low percents being very much so a PK Fire. Burf.

Stealth Burst- Give the attack a bit of vertical movement. Attack can go farther and gets stronger the farther away the attack is when used; when hit within 10 frames of being able to release, does minimum damage (6%, less than current), for the next 10-30 frames or so depending on speed of attack buff/nerf (8%, 1% more than current), and if released at the very end of its movement pattern does 12%.

Gunner Missile- Increased knockback for homing missiles, changed from set knockback to increased knockback at higher percents. High base but EXTREMELY low knockback growth so it actually can kill in Sudden Death and does above-average knockback at around 100-120%. Super Missiles don't need altered. Homing Missiles also need a FAF drop.

For Up Specials... Can't say much really. Arm Rocket could be buffed for a bit more range, though, it just seems like the worst option currently.

Echo Reflector- Attack comes out Frame 1, has a faster FAF, and reflects at same power. Gives it an actual use. Also, if it doesn't already, electrical damage.

Bomb Drop- Increased Shield damage but not actual damage (+1 to +4) for more shield pressuring.

Absorbing Vortex- Windbox upon attack release is stronger (maybe 1.5x? I don't know.)
 

marteen_

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 19, 2016
Messages
33
Location
Maryland
NNID
martinthelee
Are you talking about reducing the lag on up air or are you talking about reducing the amount of time that the hitboxes last? The long lasting hitboxes of up air are one of the most useful parts of the move, since it lasts almost as long as an airdodge (it catches airdodges unless they are perfectly timed).

The hitboxes, I find the move difficult to use because I need to go pretty high to get the finishee hit, making the move quite situational from what I've seen.
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
The hitboxes, I find the move difficult to use because I need to go pretty high to get the finishee hit, making the move quite situational from what I've seen.
Actually the landing lag of the move is the biggest problem. If the landing lag or the autocancel frames were reduced then the weaker hits of up air would confirm into an up tilt (this would kill earlier than the final hit). The hitboxes aren't the problem since they finish in a shorthop if you use the c-stick in order to buffer the aerial on the first frame that you are in the air. Reducing the length of the hitboxes without reducing the amount of lag on the move would only make it worse.

Here's what I really want, and I know the list is heavy but I'd like a bunch of things to generally make Mii Gunner better. She holds a close place in my heart. If anyone wants to tell me what isn't necessary, tell me.


General Attack Changes

- Decrease Jab's FAF Frame into the following hits so it is impossible to attack out of it, as well as having the second hit drag opponents inwards to connect the final hit easier. Currently characters can just attack out of it with invincible attacks such as True Shoryuken, Marth's Up Special, and Sheik's everything. Damage increase as well to 1.5%, 2%.

- Make final hit of Jab be one single blast instead of being an odd multi-hit with the first hit dealing less damage and the second carrying a bit more. Final hit doing 6-7% overall would be nice, too. Slightly increased hitbox radius so it is more useful, as well.

- Forward Tilt can be weaker at the tip but stronger at the base to make it more worth using. Also, adding an electrical attribute to it could be helpful.

- Down Smash first hit has lower knockback and a higher launching angle, connecting into the second hit easier and becoming untechable. This increases its viability of a move. Damage isn't needed to be touched, it's similar on par to Cloud's Down Smash. An increase of range on the hits could also be easier to a bit more match the attack's animation.

- Overall damage increase to looping hits and final hit of Forward Smash and Up Air to make them more useful and viable as options, as currently Forward Smash is extremely weak and only really kills if charged and near the ledge before 100%.

- Forward Air needs its FAF reduced. Seriously. Using it offstage basically is death since it has nearly a second of lag on it.

- Down Air has better spiking hitboxes, sourspot does more % but sweetspot has reduced % but compensated higher knockback.



Grab and Pummel/Throw Changes

- Make Mii size affect grab hitbox (I'd like this as a general change) in order to benefit Miis that have bad sizes. Also a general size increase to Mii Gunner's grab would be nice.

- Either increase the Pummel's speed to match a character such as Roy's or increase its damage to 3% per hit. Right now it's merely a lackluster thing you might do at insane percents and only get one off before doing a throw.

- Forward Throw gets a damage buff from 2%, 3% to a flat 6% throw forwards with average stats, and gets a knockback increase and a reduced upwards angle for tech chasing. Back Throw goes from 2%, 3% to 1%, 7% and the laser causes electrical damage, with reduced knockback as compensation. Up Throw changes from 2%, 3% to 1%, 6% and has a reduced FAF frame so it can link into Up Air at moderate percents. Down Throw... Eh, it's fine other than going from 5% to 7%. General throw damage increases are nice, especially considering size changes this to even worse amounts.



Special Changes

Charge Shot- Decreased shot speed but increased damage to differentiate from Samus's Charge Shot, burf'd (Buff/Nerfed). Electrical Attribute and reduced shield damage for more shield stun but same shield damage would be nice.

Laser Blaze- SIGNIFICANTLY reduced lag after use.

Grenade Launch- Fine as is. No need for changes.

Flame Pillar- Blast has reduced knockback and hits more frequently, catching opponents and locking them in similar to Ness's PK Fire. However, has increased KBG to compensate and a high SDI multiplier, making it easy to escape from but at low percents being very much so a PK Fire. Burf.

Stealth Burst- Give the attack a bit of vertical movement. Attack can go farther and gets stronger the farther away the attack is when used; when hit within 10 frames of being able to release, does minimum damage (6%, less than current), for the next 10-30 frames or so depending on speed of attack buff/nerf (8%, 1% more than current), and if released at the very end of its movement pattern does 12%.

Gunner Missile- Increased knockback for homing missiles, changed from set knockback to increased knockback at higher percents. High base but EXTREMELY low knockback growth so it actually can kill in Sudden Death and does above-average knockback at around 100-120%. Super Missiles don't need altered. Homing Missiles also need a FAF drop.

For Up Specials... Can't say much really. Arm Rocket could be buffed for a bit more range, though, it just seems like the worst option currently.

Echo Reflector- Attack comes out Frame 1, has a faster FAF, and reflects at same power. Gives it an actual use. Also, if it doesn't already, electrical damage.

Bomb Drop- Increased Shield damage but not actual damage (+1 to +4) for more shield pressuring.

Absorbing Vortex- Windbox upon attack release is stronger (maybe 1.5x? I don't know.)
Gunner's first 2 jabs already do 2% damage. While it would be nice if Forward air's FAF was reduced, it isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Using fair offstage doesn't get Gunner killed, and it can actually be used as a mixup on a high recovery. Mii size already affects grab range. Gunner's charge blast is already different from Samus's Charge Shot (while Gunner's is weaker, it has much less endlag), but a knockback increase would be nice. Reflector has some uses for Gunner since it is already fast enough to reflect projectiles, it is a situational combo breaker because it is a frame 3 move, and it allows Gunner to stall in the air.

While most of the buffs that you mentioned would be helpful to Gunner, a lot of them didn't address the main problems Gunner has in competitive play. For that reason, most of the buffs that you mentioned aren't necessary. Honestly the buff that you mentioned to Gunner's up throw alone would make Gunner a high tier character.
 

Zoramine Fae

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
227
Location
United States of Go Screw Yourself
3DS FC
2895-8088-7214
Actually the landing lag of the move is the biggest problem. If the landing lag or the autocancel frames were reduced then the weaker hits of up air would confirm into an up tilt (this would kill earlier than the final hit). The hitboxes aren't the problem since they finish in a shorthop if you use the c-stick in order to buffer the aerial on the first frame that you are in the air. Reducing the length of the hitboxes without reducing the amount of lag on the move would only make it worse.


Gunner's first 2 jabs already do 2% damage. While it would be nice if Forward air's FAF was reduced, it isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Using fair offstage doesn't get Gunner killed, and it can actually be used as a mixup on a high recovery. Mii size already affects grab range. Gunner's charge blast is already different from Samus's Charge Shot (while Gunner's is weaker, it has much less endlag), but a knockback increase would be nice. Reflector has some uses for Gunner since it is already fast enough to reflect projectiles, it is a situational combo breaker because it is a frame 3 move, and it allows Gunner to stall in the air.

While most of the buffs that you mentioned would be helpful to Gunner, a lot of them didn't address the main problems Gunner has in competitive play. For that reason, most of the buffs that you mentioned aren't necessary. Honestly the buff that you mentioned to Gunner's up throw alone would make Gunner a high tier character.
Forgive me, my knowledge of Mii Gunner is less than par and maybe they didnt help but thats just what I wanted (after trying to learn her and doing somewhat well so far.) This is why I'm not on the balancing team, OK? If everything is broken, nothing is broken.

Using FAir offstage has gotten me killed repeatedly, despite switching off Cannon Uppercut to the first special (which isn't that... Good anyways.) It's a bit frustrating but decreasing it JUST a bit would be nice.

Didnt know Mii Size affects grab hitboxes. Must be really tiny.

Alright, you got me on the jab. The Mii that I use does like 1.2% or something, really pitiful.

Gunners is different for Charge Shot? Never noticed. I never really use either Samus at all or Charge Shot since I prefer Grenade Launch, but after the current buffs to Samus from 1.1.5 I kinda have the obligation to do so.

Never found a use for Reflector outside of just being used in MUs like Link and Samus. If I were going into a tournament and going to win, I'd still prefer Absorbing Vortex to Reflector and definitely Bomb Drop.
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
Forgive me, my knowledge of Mii Gunner is less than par and maybe they didnt help but thats just what I wanted (after trying to learn her and doing somewhat well.) This is why I'm not on the balancing team, OK? If everything is broken, nothing is broken.

Using FAir offstage has gotten me killed repeatedly, despite switching off Cannon Uppercut to the first special (which isn't that... Good anyways.) It's a bit frustrating but decreasing it JUST a bit would be nice.

Didnt know Mii Size affects grab hitboxes. Must be really tiny.

Alright, you got me on the jab. The Mii that I use does like 1.2% or something, really pitiful.

Gunners is different for Charge Shot? Never noticed. I never really use either Samus at all or Charge Shot since I prefer Grenade Launch, but after the current buffs to Samus from 1.1.5 I kinda have the obligation to do so.

Never found a use for Reflector outside of just being used in MUs like Link and Samus. If I were going into a tournament and going to win, I'd still prefer Absorbing Vortex to Reflector and definitely Bomb Drop.
It's alright. Most of the buffs that you mentioned were helpful. As long as you don't use fair when you are below the stage, you should be able to make it back using Lunar Launch. While Lunar Launch isn't very good, there is tech for the move called Lunar cancelling that can occasionally set up for combos (There is a thread for this tech that also has a video to show the combos for this technique. It is basically a better version of A-Landing). Gunner's Charge blast only does 22 damage as opposed to 25 damage for Samus's Charge Shot; on the other hand, Gunner's charge blast ends on frame 39 while Samus's Charge Shot ends on frame 54. Reflector is a good option for reversing direction in the air and gundashing back to the stage.
 

Zoramine Fae

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
227
Location
United States of Go Screw Yourself
3DS FC
2895-8088-7214
It's alright. Most of the buffs that you mentioned were helpful. As long as you don't use fair when you are below the stage, you should be able to make it back using Lunar Launch. While Lunar Launch isn't very good, there is tech for the move called Lunar cancelling that can occasionally set up for combos (There is a thread for this tech that also has a video to show the combos for this technique. It is basically a better version of A-Landing). Gunner's Charge blast only does 22 damage as opposed to 25 damage for Samus's Charge Shot; on the other hand, Gunner's charge blast ends on frame 39 while Samus's Charge Shot ends on frame 54. Reflector is a good option for reversing direction in the air and gundashing back to the stage.
Alright. I don't really view Mii Gunner techs much (Since she is pretty hard to use despite being fun, isn't legal in many places, and the main place where I get practice doesn't allow them.) I didn't know Charge Blast has different properties than Charge Shot, but that's because I use Grenade Launch always since I dislike Charge Blast. Reflector... Alright, maybe it has some uses, but I won't see a reason for using it over Bomb Drop or Absorbing Vortex unless I'm desperate.
 
Top Bottom