If They Didn't Hate Me Before, They Will Now: Vayseth's Official Chaingrab Thread

Vayseth

Smash Master
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#1
Vayseth's In-Depth King Dedede Chaingrab and Grab Release Guide

Table of Contents:

  • Chapter 0.0: An Introduction by Vayseth
  • Chapter 1.1: Grab Release General Information
  • Chapter 1.2: Forcing a Specific Grab Release Animation
  • Chapter 1.3: The Pummel Break
  • Chapter 1.4: Applications of the Grab Release
  • Chapter 1.5: Edgeguarding with the Grab Release
  • Chapter 1.6: Guaranteed Combos with the Grab Release
  • Chapter 1.7: Mindgames with the Grab Release
  • Chapter 2.1: Standard Chaingrab General Information
  • Chapter 2.2: The Chainable Few
  • Chapter 2.3: The Lucky Ones: L2Tech Chase!
  • Chapter 2.4: Follow Ups From the D Throw
  • Chapter 2.5: Characters who Attempt to Disrupt Your Chaingrab
  • Chapter 2.6: The Chaingrab in Doubles Play
  • Chapter 3.1: The Standing Infinite Grab General Information
  • Chapter 3.2: The Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab
  • Chapter 3.3: The Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab on an Edge
  • Chapter 3.4: Stages that Cause or Aide in King Dedede's Infinite Chaingrabs
  • Chapter 3.5: The Yoshi Controversy
  • Chapter 3.6: The Wario Controversy
  • Chapter 4.1: The Walking/Nudging Chaingrab General Information
  • Chapter 5.1: The Conclusion and Thanks!

Chapter 0.0: An Introduction by Vayseth

Before we begin, I'd like to introduce myself. Hey! I'm Vayseth, also known as Alex (my real name). I live in various cities in Michigan so I have the pleasure of bouncing ideas off of one of the best DDDs out there, lain, while also getting to play against some of the best players in the country who use some of the more unique characters so I can fully test all aspects of my game. Compiling this guide has been the tedious work of playing against some of the best in the business including Quivo's Toon Link, Alpha Zelot's Diddy, Anther's Pikachu, lain's ICs and DDD, Omniswell's Wolf, ICs, Wario, and Metaknight, Judge!'s Metaknight, Snake, Wario and Falco, Ankoku's Sheik and Zelda, Mikey Lenetia's Peach and Zelda, SamuraiPanda's Snake and Random, and SamuraiPanda, SCOTU, and Ankoku's help in figuring out some more technical aspects of the game. So, if you haven't heard of me, you definitely have heard of my competition. I have been trying to figure out how to do this for many months and I hope that you guys enjoy the finished product. Thank you guys for your help and support. Without any further interruption, here's my chaingrab guide!

Chapter 1.1: Grab Release General Information

Here I will go more in-depth into Grab Releases than anyone probably has in smash boards history. There is a lot of information here that people do not know, so I would try and make sure you understand everything here before moving on to the applications I have come up with later.

The first thing you may not be familiar with is that there are three types of grab releases in the game. Yes three. They are what I have termed Ground Breaks, Air Breaks, and Pummel Breaks. It is possible to force the first two guaranteed, but the third requires some luck.

Everyone is familiar with what I have termed Ground Breaks and Air Breaks. An Air Break is when you force the opponent to break in an upwards motion. A Ground Break, therefore would be when the opponent breaks downward. But then what's a Pummel Break? That's going to require a bit more explanation.

For most of the cast, an Air Break is defined as a grab release animation where the opponent is sent in an arching motion going up and away from where the break happened. The distance and height vary based on the character but there are also three major types of Air Break trajectories. The most common is one which sends the opponent noticeably higher and far away, like Snake's for example. Most characters have these. Some characters get sent on a low arch trajectory for some reason, which can be really helpful in regards to edge guarding. Examples include Squirtle, Sheik, Fox, Falco, etc. The third I only remember seeing in Wario and Metaknight. This is the strange parabola-shaped motion which sends them up and they hopelessly fall down unable to do anything until they reach the ground. This is why there are so many things you can do out of grab release on these characters, because of their strange Air Break properties, where most other characters can input commands much faster. I will tell you how to force an Air Break in a moment. It's required for explaining the Pummel Break.

So if an Air Break is something which forces the opponent up and away, then a Ground Break is defined as a grab release animation where the opponent is sent a short distance away and stays grounded. There really isn't much to note about Ground Breaks other than depending on the opponent's amount of traction they will slide further away. Wario and R.O.B. are members of the group who break closest (conveniently enough in regrabbing range) while Luigi rockets clear across the stage from a normal Ground Break. There are in general five classes of characters who slide a set distance away but other than that, every character has the same animation. Which character slides how far is listed in Chapter 1.7, Mindgames.

Chapter 1.2: Forcing a Specific Grab Release Animation

To actually force one animation over the other is somewhat tricky. A Ground Break is the easiest. Simply standing grab the character over the level or platform with a normal grab and either pummel until they break out or just hold them until they do. If the opponent has some sort of ground underneath them, they will perform a Ground Break. Note I said "standing grab". If you perform a dashing grab, this may still happen, but depending on the size of the two characters, it may not.

The size of the characters involved plays a huge role in whether or not you can force an Air Break Grab Release. It is extremely character specific. Luckily for you, I have provided you with a list of characters who King Dedede can perform Air Breaks on. Basically, to perform an Air Break you need one thing: to make sure the character is not touching the floor. Anyone can be Air Breaked over the edge. To perform one, just make sure they have nowhere to go and do nothing. When they break out, you will force an Air Break. If they break out during a pummel when they are dangling, oh, well, you'll see what that yields soon enough. For most characters, the only way to get the feet dangling animation while you are still on the level, is to dash grab them. The dash grab will hold them higher off of the ground so it is possible to get that animation. The characters who King Dedede can force an Air Break on over the level are:

  • Mario
  • Luigi
  • Yoshi
  • Wario
  • Ice Climbers (Solo Popo or SoPo).
  • Kirby
  • Metaknight
  • Olimar
  • Pikachu
  • Squirtle
  • Jigglypuff
  • Ness
  • Lucas
  • Mr. Game and Watch

That is to say, only the listed characters are small enough to cause a feet dangling animation, which allows you to force an Air Break on them. To do this you must dash grab them to trigger the feet dangling animation and then let them break out naturally. They will always perform an Air Break.

I know this is pretty dry so far, interesting, but dry. Don't worry, the application of this knowledge is coming soon.

Chapter 1.3: The Pummel Break

I believe I am the first to discover this animation so it's possible you will not have heard of this before. If someone has, please let me know and I will credit you for the discovery. Everything else I have listed until now is common knowledge. Here's the fun part:

The list I gave for who can be forced into an Air Break over the level is extremely important. To force the Air Break every time, you just dash grab them, trigger the feet dangling animation, and let them break out. The reason is if you are pummeling them at the time when they break out, they will perform a completely different animation.

To prove all three animations exist I suggest trying them on Luigi, who with King Dedede can show all three work.

1. Ground Break: Standing grab Luigi and let him break out. He will slide pretty far away along the ground.
2. Air Break: Dash grab Luigi and let him break out. He will float up and away really far away.
3. Pummel Break: Dash grab Luigi and pummel him until he breaks out of a pummel hit. He will land right next to you.
*Note, 2 and 3 work with King Dedede. Forcing the feet dangling animation is extremely character specific, so you will have to test it out for yourself who you can force an Air Break on. Remember, it has to do with the size of the characters involved.

So, the Pummel Break is defined as a grab release animation where the opponent would normally perform an Air Break, but broke out during a pummel, forcing them to break downward. The cool thing about the Pummel Break is that it breaks the opponent closer than a normal Ground Break which can allow for follow ups, or serious edge guarding. Because they broke out during a hit, the opponent is actually in hit stun and recovers slower than Dedede does. This can guarantee a regrab on some, or for Ness and Lucas, this can guarantee a D Tilt.

Chapter 1.4: Applications of the Grab Release

There are a couple things you need to know about the grab release that help out King Dedede's game. The three main things they allow you to do are edge guard more effectively, allow guaranteed combos, and allow for serious mindgames. This is where we combine everything I've talked about so far so if you get lost please ask me. I may have written down some things in a hurry and they may not have come out the way I wanted them to. I would ask you to, if you do not know what's going on, check back in the sections before and if you are trying this yourself, make sure you are correctly performing an Air Break, a Ground Break, or a Pummel Break when I'm listing those. It's very important to distinguish between them so I ask that you please check to make sure you're doing everything right before you flame me =P

Chapter 1.5: Edgeguarding with the Grab Release

Believe it or not you can do a lot of damage to people by mixing in grab releases after a chaingrab instead of always doing a forward throw. Here's some key examples:

Example #1: Snake and Link.
Snake and Link have some of the most gimpable recoveries in the game. If you force a Pummel Break on either character and immediately edge hog, the character has no choice but to jump and up B. For Link, his jump and Up B are so shallow he can't even make it onto the stage again! Play your cards right and a Pummel Break at any percent could cause instant death for Link. For Snake, you are forcing him to Up B which is good. If he Up Bs at the level, there's a free cypher grab. If he Up Bs away from the level, he's low enough and moving slow enough that you can time a fair right to the face. For both Link and Snake and their gimpable recoveries, causing a Pummel Break on them and landing a fair or bair or two might be enough to kill them every time!

Example #2: Sheik, Fox, Falco, Etc.
Their strange downward arching Air Break animation sets them up for PERFECT edge guarding. It might be more risky against Fox or Falco who can just Illusion back, but a well-timed edge hog could limit their options. For Sheik, she is placed at perfect bair range and since she doesn't have a great recovery, it's just a matter of landing one bair and an edge hog to finish her off.

Remember, mix in Air and Ground Breaks over edges instead of forward throw after a chain grab! Air and Pummel breaks over the edge will send people on a very specific trajectory which allows you to put them exactly where you want them so you can edge guard them more easily. If the opponent has a poor recovery, forcing a Pummel Break can even lead to their deaths! King Dedede will recover before the opponent in both cases allowing for an easier edge guard.

(Credit for this application goes to lain, who initially told me that I should grab release Snakes off of the edge after a chain grab because if you forward throw them they can recover too high to edge guard them. Little did he know that it would spark me to find many more instances to use it for edge guarding. Thanks lain! <3)

Chapter 1.6: Guaranteed Combos with the Grab Release

Let me preface this, the only guaranteed combo that is worth anything in game is the guaranteed link to a D Tilt on Ness and Lucas. Everything else is purely speculation, and really isn't metagame changing, but is interesting to note.

The Pummel Break is very unkind to Ness and Lucas. Ness and Lucas players both know this very well. An infinite regrab from Marth, a guaranteed Bowser Bomb from Bowser, and now a D Tilt after a chain grab from King Dedede, what else could the Pummel Break do to these poor guys?

The Pummel Break, as I explained earlier, puts the opponent in brief hit stun and they drop from the feet dangling animation, placing them closer to the opponent at a frame disadvantage. For some reason, Ness and Lucas have a HUGE frame disadvantage on a Pummel Break. This allows for a guaranteed D Tilt after a chain grab on Ness and Lucas which could lead to death.

Notice before that I said there were a list of characters who were small enough to trigger the feet dangling animation over the level. Well, of those characters, the following six characters fall right next to King Dedede and are in range of a D Tilt:

Mario, Kirby, Metaknight, Olimar, Ness, Lucas.

I know what you all are hoping for and unfortunately that is not the case. The other four characters have faster Pummel Break recoveries and a D Tilt is not guaranteed. Could it work as a mindgame? OH YEAH. Not guaranteed though. However, people might not be conscious of this information, so you never know who you could get with it. I was, however, able to get a regrab consistently on each character. What does this mean? If you just so happen to dash grab any of those characters (three of which can't be chaingrabbed, so there's no guaranteed set up for it), and just so happen to force a Pummel Break instead of an Air Break, you can regrab them and pummel them some more. So... at most 10% more in damage, if the stars and planets align and your opponent put down his controller. Also, since you had to dash grab them to cause the Pummel Break and there isn't time to dash grab again (only time for a normal, standing grab) you cannot force the animation to happen twice in a row, so all you get is some extra lousy pummel damage but it's interesting to note!

In summation, this is more for my next section "Mindgames" than it is for guaranteed stuff. The only thing I have noted being guaranteed is the D Tilt on Ness and Lucas following a chaingrab (if you force a Pummel Break on them on the ground, and not by the edge). If you want a short version of what guaranteed combos King Dedede has out of grab release, here is the list:

Out of Ground Breaks:
None.

Out of Air Breaks:
  • Wario: U Tilt, U Smash, and Bair

Out of Pummel Breaks:
  • Lucas: Grab, D Tilt (2:09)
  • Ness: Grab, D Tilt

Chapter 1.7: Mindgames with the Grab Release

There are plenty of characters who after being Ground Breaked can have many follow ups because they are in range of your attacks. The following lists of characters are groups segregated by distance sent away from King Dedede as a result of a Ground Break. Maybe you can catch the opponent off guard and hit them with any of the moves that they are in range of? None of them are guaranteed, but if I was playing against a Dedede and getting chaingrabbed, I probably would stop and go "WTF?" when I'm now suddenly getting grab released. If you think they are going to spot dodge, start charging that D Smash! There's quite a few possibilities here.

Here's my philosophy: If you can jab someone, jab them, see if they sheild and run and regrab. If you can regrab someone, try and regrab them. If you can D Smash, try and do that! If you can do all of these out of a chaingrab, you can confuse your opponent and hit them with a killing move before they even figure out why you are suddenly grab releasing them when you could easily get in another grab in your chain. The possibilities are endless, and I'd like people to experiment with some of it.

Once again, the groups are segregated based on the distance they slide away from King Dedede after a Ground Break. A being the closest to King Dedede and E being the farthest. For each group I have listed attacks that if the opponent did nothing (or had a low sheild) could not get out of. I have consistently hit people with low shields with D Tilt after a grab release. It WILL shield poke. Try out your own combinations!

Group A: In range for Regrab, Jab, D Tilt, D Smash.
  • Jigglypuff
  • Lucario
  • Ivysaur
  • Charizard*
  • Bowser*
  • R.O.B.
  • Wario
*If they shield they bend their head back just enough to not be able to be regrabbed.

Group B: In range for Jab, D Tilt, D Smash.
  • Mario
  • Peach
  • Donkey Kong
  • Link
  • Sheik
  • Ganondorf
  • Samus
  • Olimar
  • Wolf
  • Mr. Game and Watch

Group C: In range for D Tilt
  • Metaknight
  • Kirby
  • Toon Link
  • Fox
  • Falco
  • Marth
  • Snake
  • Sonic

Group D: Nothing is in range.
  • Diddy Kong
  • Yoshi
  • Zelda
  • Zero Suit Samus
  • Pit
  • Ice Climbers (Solo Popo or SoPo)
  • King Dedede
  • Captain Falcon
  • Pikachu
  • Squirtle
  • Ike
  • Ness
  • Lucas

Group E: Nothing is in range because he slides all the way across the stage.
  • Luigi

While all of the characters in each group do not slide the EXACT same distance (Falco can be hit by a jab but Toon Link can't) it's just a rough estimate of where each character slides away from King Dedede.

I think there's plenty more we can learn with grab releases and I encourage your comments and suggestions (or even additions) to my section if you know of anything else.

Chapter 2.1: Standard Chaingrab General Information

Did you know King Dedede's D Throw is actually two hits? Yes, if you go into training mode and perform a down throw you can see that there are two consecutive hits, each dealing 4% for a total of 8%. The first hit is the sitting down animation and the second hit comes from a waft that is created which sends the opponent away in the direction they were grabbed a set distance, regardless of how stale the D Throw is and what percent the opponent is at. The waft portion of the move can stale, from what we can tell, but the specifics of the throw in detail will be covered in the Standing Infinite Chaingrab section, since it effects how that move is performed.

What allows the chaingrab to work is after the hitstun has taken place the opponent lands. The hitstun is similar for every character. It involves the opponent turning slightly sideways in pain before finally landing in what I like to call "landing dust." If you played melee you'd know precisely what this looks like because to perform a wave dash you must leave the ground and land very quickly causing dust to appear as you're dashing. The same holds true in this game. Why the opponents move that set distance is because their hitstun is being directed in a specific direction at a set distance by the waft, the second hit of the King Dedede D Throw.

The opponent cannot input anything while they are riding the waft. For any chaingrabbable character, this is before they land, which almost always looks like the opponent is kneeling slightly before they stand. They can input moves at that instant. If you see a shield, you know your opponent can input commands. Your goal is to grab them before they get up from the ground. Some characters slide further than others, which was detailed in my grab release chapter. So, instead of listing characters that could be chaingrabbed, I've ordered those characters in order of the difficulty to efficiently chaingrab them by counting the number of times on average the opponent could be successfully chained from one side of Final Destination to the other. I'll order them the same way we order our match ups in match up topic: Red, for "Very Hard", Green for "Average", Blue for "Easy", and Pink for "********". I'll also add in Oranage, for "Hard."

Before we move on, I want to encourage everyone to read Buuman's thread. I will source it constantly, but his "Grab Laws" section are extremely important nuggets to keep in mind when you are chain grabbing.

Buuman's King Dedede Grab Laws:
  • If you shield grab chain grab perfectly, you will get more grabs/chain grabs off overall.
  • If you down throw immediately after a re grab during the chain grab, the sliding animation will be negated
  • If you want to change the distance of the slide during a chain grab, wait a minimal amount of time between dash grabs, OR grab attack during the chain grab, you will get the same effect.
  • If you input a grab during your running animation you will dash grab. It MUST be finished in order to do a standing grab, this includes the ending part of the dash animation, when Dedede slows down.

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Source: Dedede Database (The *Buuman trap* included). http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224054

Chapter 2.2: The Chainable Few

******** Difficulty (3 Grabs Max):
  • Luigi

VERY HARD Difficulty (4 Grabs Max):
  • Diddy Kong
  • Toon Link
  • Pit

HARD Difficulty (4-5 Grabs)
  • Peach
  • Ice Climbers (Solo Popo or SoPo)
  • Marth


AVERAGE Difficulty (5-6 Grabs)
  • Mario
  • Yoshi
  • Wario
  • Link
  • Gannondorf
  • Samus
  • R.O.B.
  • King Dedede
  • Wolf
  • Captain Falcon
  • Ivysaur
  • Charizard
  • Lucario
  • Ike
  • Ness
  • Lucas
  • Snake
  • Sonic


VERY EASY Difficulty (6+ Grabs!)
  • Bowser
  • Donkey Kong

A brief explanation of this list:
1. ********- Luigi slides really far away making the difficulty for a regrab as well as the timing required to successfully chain D Throws together is very tight. Be careful or you'll eat a fire punch.

2. VERY HARD- These three slide a good deal out of the way and are able to be grabbed again, but not by much. Again, the timing to successfully chain your D Throws is a very small window.

3. HARD- These guys can be chained effectively more times than the previous three, but the window to chain D Throws is very tight.

4. AVERAGE- These are your average 5-6 grab across the stage guys. Some you'll only get 5, some you can squeeze in 6, it all depends on your buffering and timing. Don't worry about screwing this up.

5. VERY EASY- You'd have to be an idiot to not successfully chain grabs against these guys. The timing is so forgiving it's a joke. They move only a short distance from King Dedede that you won't even need to take more than a step sometimes (*cough* Walking Chaingrab *cough*).

Chapter 2.3: The Lucky Ones: L2Tech Chase!

There are 12 characters in the game who instead of landing standing up after a grab, they land on the ground. Why this is is still largely a mystery but I like to think of it as these are the 12 lightest characters in the game and some combination of weight and size puts them immediately landing on the ground instead of landing safely on their feet. You cannot grab someone when they are laying on the ground, which is why the chaingrab doesn't work. They also have the least amount of time spent in hit stun from the D Throw.

The Unchainable 12:
  • Zelda
  • Sheik
  • Zero Suit Samus
  • Kirby
  • Metaknight
  • Olimar
  • Fox
  • Falco
  • Pikachu
  • Squirtle
  • Jigglypuff
  • Mr. Game and Watch

There are several options these characters have after landing and even before landing that they can do.

  1. DI upward and airdogde even before hitting the ground.
    If they do that, the air dodge animation will cancel when they touch the ground, allowing you to regrab them. If you know your opponent likes to do this, do not worry, they have only made themselves unknowingly chaingrabble. Just wait for the air dodge to cancel and regrab.
    [*]DI upward and either jump or up B to prevent any sort of a tech chase.
    Those characters are Metaknight, Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, Squirtle, and Mr. Game and Watch. To stop this, predict what your opponent will do and try and follow it up with a counter of your own. Be creative.
    [*]Tech upon landing in three different ways: straight up, rolling left and rolling right.
    These are the hardest to combat with, except for if they tech straight up. If they do that, they are then chaingrabbable. If you have a tech-happy opponent, you might make their life very hard.
    [*]Land and then do one of four different get up animations: stand up, roll left, roll right, and get up attack.
    You can punish these by reading where your opponent will go preparing for it and regrabbing them. Either shield the attack and regrab, wait and catch them as they roll at you or run after them and grab them after they roll away. The tech chase can be one of your greatest allies. Oh, and don't forget the Buuman trap! (really, read his thread, it's good stuff).
Source: Dedede Database (The *Buuman trap* included). http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224054

Chapter 2.4: Follow Ups From the D Throw

Whether you are chaingrabbing someone or not, there are always guaranteed follow ups to the D Throw. The most common follow ups are F Tilt (guaranteed on almost the whole cast), and D Tilt (guaranteed against a select few, and even fewer only on the edge). But, I'll also include some fun things you can follow up with if your opponent likes to spot dodge or try to run away if you mess up a grab or you cannot chain grab them at all.

Characters Who can be comboed into F Tilt:
  • Mario
  • Peach
  • Bowser
  • Donkey Kong
  • Diddy Kong
  • Yoshi
  • Wario
  • Link
  • Zelda
  • Sheik
  • Ganondorf
  • Toon Link
  • Zero Suit Samus
  • Samus
  • Pit
  • Ice Climbers
  • R.O.B.
  • Metaknight
  • King Dedede
  • Fox
  • Falco
  • Olimar
  • Wolf
  • Captain Falcon
  • Pikachu
  • Ivysaur
  • Charizard
  • Lucario
  • Mr. Game and Watch
  • Snake
  • Sonic

That leaves the only ones who F Tilt does not link into are: Jigglypuff, Luigi, Kirby and Squirtle.

Characters who can be comboed into D Tilt:
  • Donkey Kong
  • Bowser
  • Samus
  • Ivysaur
  • Charizard

Characters who can be comboed into D Tilt (if spaced properly over an edge):
  • Yoshi
  • R.O.B.
  • King Dedede
  • Snake

Characters who can be comboed into D Smash (if the opponent does not slide off of the edge):
  • Bowser

To clarify, the first D Tilt list are characters where D Tilt combos regardless of the position on the stage, the second list only combos if you hit them as they are falling off of a ledge or a platform, and the third list can only link D Smash if they are not near an edge.

Here's some moves which tend to take your opponent by surprise if they try and recover and then spot dodge (works as a tech chase against the unchainable 12 as well):

  • Dash Attack: This is one of the few chances us Dedede players get to use this seemingly useless yet extremely powerful move. It will break spot dodges so even if they are chaingrabbable, if you expect them to spot dodge after a D Throw, hit them with the Dash Attack!
  • Inhale: D Throw is one of the best set ups for inhale. Your opponent will be set a perfect distance away for you to short hop forward and gobble them up. It'll break spot dodges, but if timed right, your opponent can roll behind you and avoid it. Use sparingly.
  • D Smash: Nothing like your opponent thinking they're in the clear and then suddenly seeing you spacing a D Smash by the edge of the level only to realize they have nowhere to go from there. This is in essence, the Buuman trap. I also like to grab release people I can chain grab right before the edge so they land on the ground with nowhere to go. I immediately start charging a D Smash and read what they are going to do. If they roll or spot dodge, they're getting hit, if they shield, they're going to be pushed off of the level onto the edge, making me safe. It can be really effective.
Source: Dedede Database (The *Buuman trap* included). http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224054

Chapter 2.5: Characters who Attempt to Disrupt Your Chaingrab

There are a couple characters who if you mess up the timing of your chaingrabs by even a frame, you can eat an attack, or they can get out of your chain grab. If your opponent can do ANYTHING, you have messed up the timing on your grab. Better get practicing.

The most common counters to the grab are the following:

  • Snake: If you do not grab Snake perfectly, he can drop grenades in between your D Throws and if you sit on a grenade, you both go boom. This is where ports become a huge issue. If Snake is a lower port than you are, he has faux super armor and takes the damage but no knockback. This could mean death for you if you are not careful. Make sure you are chaingrabbing correctly and secondly, just in case, get a lower port than Snake ALL THE TIME.
  • Marth: Marth players think they are so clever. They think that they can just use Up B like it is their own personal "get out of jail free" card. Well, in most cases it is. Having an incredibly fast kill move that is invincible is absolutely awesome. If we had it we'd use it too. Oh wait, we do, the U Tilt. Anyway, they're going to want to mash Up B against King Dedede players who might occasionally miss their grabs. I say let them get used to you messing up occasionally so when you prepare for them to Up B, you can hit them with a F Smash or a Down B as they are falling helplessly, unable to prevent their impending doom.

I know there are more ways that other characters try and get out of this so if you have any suggestions let me know and I'll add them to the list!

Chapter 2.6: The Chaingrab in Doubles Play

I'm just recently becoming more accustomed to singles play but if there's anything I know it's doubles. King Dedede can be a serious threat in doubles if played correctly. In doubles there are usually two types of players: the dominant player, who goes for all the kills and likes to take people 1-on-1, and the support player, who distracts the other teammate while their partner is getting mercilessly edge guarded or follows their own teammate's movements in order to set up team combos. King Dedede is in my mind one of the top support doubles characters in the game. His grabs are easy set ups for team combos and also get your opponent's teammate out of the way when you want a chance to edge guard or team combo more effectively.

Here's some rules to live by:
  1. You should always chaingrab in doubles if given the chance.
    King Dedede's chaingrab is his best asset. Instead of not using it as much, adapt to the chaos doubles breeds and use it to your advantage. Chaingrab right into your teammate who can then hit them for you allowing you to follow up making a devastating team combo. Don't forget that the F Throw and B Throw are extremely fast and hit everyone in the radius of your hammer. If you are chaingrabbing someone and their teammate comes to save the day, throw their own partner at them. Chances are they'll get hit by the throw animation, their own teammate, or both.
  2. D Throw is the best move in the game for setting up team combos.
    If you didn't know before reading this, King Dedede's U Tilt has invincibility frames on it. This allows you to do amazing things with your partner to rack up damage as well as get early kills. All you need to do is D Throw, have your partner space enough away and time an attack that sends the opponent right back at you. When the opponent is shot back, use the U Tilt. If timed correctly you will have successfully chained three moves together, all powerful, racking up a ton of damage sending them sky high, usually to their deaths. My favorite set up is a D Throw into a Metaknight D Smash right back into an U Tilt of your own. It is not only cool looking but so fast that you can perform it regularly during your match! Try it for yourself!
  3. You are big so stay out of giant cluster ****s or you will be eating a ton of damage.
    King Dedede plays the support card really well. However, he can become a burden if up against a Metaknight who really likes to edge guard. Try to team with someone who can prevent you from getting mercilessly team comboed which King Dedede is subject to due to his large size. Teams at a high level is just organized chaos. Try to play the tank role and just stay alive throwing your opponents into fully charged smashes.

I hope I've taught you something new about the applications of the D Throw in doubles, especially the D Throw to Smash to U Tilt combo. When performed in a match, nothing feels sweeter in this game. NOTHING.

Chapter 3.1: The Standing Infinite Grab General Information

My original tutorial made over a year ago first explained this phenomenon and I was the original King Dedede player to use it in a tournament (Sorry TheMann). I lost the set (lol...) but that was just as we were learning about the specifics, so don't nitpick my skills please. You can see both videos here:

Vayseth's Tutorial
Vayseth vs TheMann 1

That video has a lot of outdated information, and information missing which is crucial to understanding this strange phenomenon. Below I hope to clarify myself.

There are three varieties of the Standing Infinite Grab. The ones who can be regrabbed against a wall after a D Throw infinitely, the ones who can be regrabbed without a wall infinitely, and the ones who can be regrabbed infinitely if you have the opponent spaced perfectly over an edge. If your opponent can be chaingrabbed, congratulations, you can chaingrab them infinitely into a wall. The best way to kill out of this set up is probably to U Tilt them because it is fast, one of King Dedede's best killing moves, and will get you the quickest and safest results.

Specifics of the other two are detailed below.

Chapter 3.2: The Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab

The Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab can be performed on 4 characters in the game: Donkey Kong, Mario, Luigi, and Samus. The others require some sort of a perfectly spaced set up to work. Donkey Kong is by far the easiest to chaingrab. You can literally mash the throw button after each D Throw and manage a regrab 90% of the time. The other three require some explanation.

As I said in my video, the others cannot be successively chained more than 5 times before the D Throw stales and they can no longer be chained. Ankoku and I actually used this information to not only prove that the move stales but also to prove that there were only 9 moves in the stale move list. Here's how:

If we assume there are 9 moves in the stale move list, then my move list on Donkey Kong when performing the Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab would look something like this:

D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw
(with each successive D Throw replacing the first one in the list over and over)

The problem with Mario, Samus, and Luigi is, after 5 successful D Throws, they suddenly are no longer in reach. SCOTU discovered the reason for this. The problem is the waft itself stales which screws up their trajectory and does not allow for a regrab. Why is this? No one really knows. If the waft stales it would make more sense that they move closer not out of your reach but then again, that's one of Brawl's great mysteries. Anyway, to make it an infinite combo, we would have to ensure that there were no more than 5 D Throws in the stale move list at one time. If we add a single pummel in between each D Throw, the stale move list looks like this:

D Throw, Pummel, D Throw, Pummel, D Throw, Pummel, D Throw, Pummel, D Throw
(therefore, the next stale move list would have 5 pummels and 4 D Throws and would rotate constantly in that order)

Because there are never more than 5 D Throws in my stale move list, the D Throw never stales enough to make them miss the trajectory, so they will then be stuck in the grab infinitely. The only problem is at lower percents you probably will not be able to guarantee even 1 pummel in the chain, so this is only an infinite at higher percents. Even then, you must buffer in a hit and buffer in the D Throw immediately for this to be a true infinite.

Chapter 3.3: The Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab on an Edge

For some unlucky few, the Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab works on them but only when they are spaced perfectly on an edge, and the timing is the most strict of any chaingrabs listed so far in this guide. You have to buffer in the down throw immediately or they will break out due to being off of the edge partly. It really screws with the game's physics. The characters who can be infinitely chaingrabbed over an edge are: Bowser, King Dedede, and Wolf. Of the former characters who can be chaingrabbed anywhere, Mario is the only character who cannot be chaingrabbed infinitely over an edge, no matter the situation. This works the exact same way. Obviously, because of the spacing, it is stage specific where you must grab each character to make the infinite work, but there is a way to get it on almost any stage.

Chapter 3.4: Stages that Cause or Aide in King Dedede's Infinite Chaingrabs

These are a collection of stages, still allowed by the SBR, where characters can be chaingrabbed infinitely into a wall, off of a level, or on a moving platform. I'll detail where and for how long you can successfully infinite chaingrab someone on these levels.

Starter
Battlefield: None.
Final Destination: None.
Smashville: The floating platform can cause an infinite regrab situation if you grab them on the platform and are grabbing them on the edge of it in the direction the platform is moving. Extremely situational, but M2K used it against TheReflexWonder in the grand finals of FAST1 (1:52). Follow it up with a D Tilt on everyone in the cast.
Yoshi's Island: None.

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege: During the second transformation King Dedede can chaingrab followed by a forward throw off of the sides.
Halberd: There's a walk off and 2 walls in the beginning 11 seconds of the stage. When the match starts out, the entire arena is flat. About 3 seconds into being on that stage, the platform appears from a shaft under the players. Once the 'primary' platform completely rises up [about 4 second into the match] 2 walls are available inside that shaft the platform raised out of. That shaft has a door that closes over top of it shortly after the primary floaty platform comes up. (credit to "D.E.").
Lylat Cruise: None.
Pokémon Stadium 1: Walls are formed twice on the stage and there are three altogether. The first is during the rock transformation in the little area formed next to the big rock which takes up the majority of the left side of the stage. The other two are during the fire transformation. One on the left side of the tree and the other on the right side of the tree.

Counter
Brinstar: None.
Delfino: There are so many I can't even count them. Anytime there's a walk-off section, you can chaingrab to forward throw to kill them. There are also mini half walls which spawn with some water running through them. They count as walls. The other one people might not know about is the transformation with the house that doesn't have a ledge. On the left, it is a walk off, so you can chaingrab them off of it like normal, but on the right there is a part of the house with no edge on it. If you Pummel Break a character there, it can lead to instant death depending on the character. I have done this successfully to Wolf, but I'm not sure who else it works on. Anyone with a crappy recovery might mean instant death too. Be careful not to be so concerned with the kill that the stage leaves without you however!
Frigate Orpheon: When the platform on the right is at it's lowest on the first transformation, you can chain a couple grabs into the wall on the left before it goes back up. Also, on the second part, you can technically chain them off of the platforms that appear and disappear, but it could also get you killed.
Jungle Japes: None.
Pictochat: A few walls form temporarily during a few of the transformations.
Pirate Ship: The small ship that comes on the right has a tiny wall, but it's not worth your time.
Pokémon Stadium 2: None. (you'd think the sandpile might work, but a lot of the time it doesn't.)
Rainbow Cruise: The right side of the boat acts as a wall there are also walls at the top after the big swing and one just as the stage is returning to the boat.

Counter/Banned
Distant Planet: Walk-off on the left side (timing is tricky!) Watch out for the water
Green Greens: The blocks, once collected form walls. Watch out for the wind which can disrupt the infinite.
Luigi's Mansion: None.
Port Town Aero Dive: There are two areas with walkoffs that are suitable for walkoff cgs: here and here. There are also three areas in this stage that have a pair of walls, but the transformations don't last long in this stage so you will have to be quick to use them! (credit to Kirk for the pictures and SimaMatt for the explaination.)
Yoshi's Island (Pipes): The right side has a walk-off (timing is tricky!)
Norfair: None.

Use this knowledge to your advantage because nowhere are chaining off of walk-offs or infiniting into walls banned!

Chapter 3.5: The Yoshi Contraversy
I was sent this video and I would like you to take a look at it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rkl-4-g5bA

No, Yoshi is not able to be infinitely grabbed. Why did this happen? I'm not sure. It could be a combination of the King Dedede player using inhale, followed by grabbing Yoshi out of his egg followed by it being an online match. If you watch, the Yoshi's distance traveled after the second D Throw is noticeably different from the first. What caused it? I'm not sure, I haven't been able to recreate it. If you can explain it, I'll add you in here.

Chapter 3.6: The Wario Controversy

Seibrik got a lot of people wondering just how devestating the Air Break was on Wario when he released one of his latest combo videos.

"Grab Happy: A King Dedede Combo Video" by Seibrik. (4:34)

This was possible because Seibrik managed to grab the Wario player out of his second jump so he had nowhere to go. Wario could have inputted other commands but did not. As far as we know, Wario cannot be Air Break infinited.

Chapter 4.1: The Walking/Nudging Chaingrab General Information

The Walking Chaingrab is where King Dedede does not dash between each grab of the chaingrab but instead takes a step and regrabs the opponent. It works on a variety of characters but how effective or practical is it? You be the judge.

A while back someone posted this video online which got us all thinking. Does it really work?

"More ways to chain grab with King Dedede" by Pdiamond1231.

My conclusion: It works on some but not others. Could it work on more than two people? I think it may but we're going to have to test it thoroughly. Here's my data:

On Bowser and Donkey Kong it really does work. From one side of the stage to the other you can manage anywhere from 20-25 grabs on average as opposed to approximately 6. That's a HUGE difference. It doesn't help that both of these characters can be comboed into killing moves and infinited in addition to that. I have proven that this does work for these characters.

As for Wolf, Wario, and Ganondorf I'm not so sure. If it works, the timing is insane and the hardest of all of King Dedede's chaingrabs. I have not been able to consistently do it and it might be a combination of me screwing up or my friend who was helping me test it screwing up. If it did work, I've calculated that you can get approximately 10-12 grabs across the stage on each of them. I have found no concrete evidence if this really can work in a real match or not. If someone can prove me otherwise, I'd love to see it.

The rest of the cast are unaffected by the Walking Chaingrab. A dash is required in order to do the chaingrab correctly.

Chapter 5.1: The Conclusion and Thanks!

In conclusion, King Dedede's chaingrabs are absolute ****. Learn them and watch your opponents cower in fear as you destroy their will to play this game.

Thank you so much for your help in support with this guide. I hope I opened up a new world to your smash game and can help you improve King Dedede's metagame in the process. Now I leave it up to you guys to take the information here and integrate it into your play styles.

Thanks goes out to:
lain
Ankoku
SCOTU
SamuraiPanda
Buuman
Quivo
Alpha Zealot
Anther
Omniswell
judge!
Mikey Lenetia
TheMann
Dogma
JimboCav09
JustKindaBoredUKno
BOODA
What's the Point
Kel
The King Dedede Boards
...and everyone else who contributed towards this guide or practicing with me to help me figure out the specifics I have listed here or causing some strange event that allowed me to research it and find out why and post it for everyone to see.

Thank you all so much!
 

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
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#13
That's because he's a king. He doesn't believe in that one for all, democracy crap.
Its only him and his knights.
No, it's because he's a fat penguin that has a huge ***, and huge arms, combines those together to keep on sexually harassing people.

There's your true answer.

At least Falco's chaingrab has some sense to it.
 

CRASHiC

Smash Debater
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Messages
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#14
No, because King Dedede's chaingrab is intentional. Falco's could be an accident.
Samurai Panda proved it.
There is wind programed into the throw to keep characters from falling down in the way that Metaknight does when we dthrow him.
 

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
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Ray_Kalm7
#15
No, because King Dedede's chaingrab is intentional. Falco's could be an accident.
Samurai Panda proved it.
There is wind programed into the throw to keep characters from falling down in the way that Metaknight does when we dthrow him.
That still proves my theory..
 

Vayseth

Smash Master
Writing Team
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#19
Chapter 1 is uploaded! What will be in the proceeding chapters? Is Vayseth off of his rocker and where did he come up with this stuff?

TUNE IN TOMORROW.

Comments/suggestions/corrections/additions all Welcome.

I've just noticed, I don't know if I can fit all of my chapters into the single post up there. Is there a text limit? If there is, I might open up another thread and just reserve the first couple posts.
 

MetalMusicMan

Sleepwalk our lives away.
Joined
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Messages
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St. Charles, Missouri
#21
Chapter 1 is uploaded! What will be in the proceeding chapters? Is Vayseth off of his rocker and where did he come up with this stuff?

TUNE IN TOMORROW.

Comments/suggestions/corrections/additions all Welcome.

I've just noticed, I don't know if I can fit all of my chapters into the single post up there. Is there a text limit? If there is, I might open up another thread and just reserve the first couple posts.
Great work Vayseth, I can't wait for the rest of it!


The only suggestion that I have is to bold and make the text larger/brightly colored in a sort of "TLDR" summary for each important section, since you know that will get the information across to more people and increase everyone's likelihood of reading it all.

Here's an example of what I mean.

If you don't have time or just don't want to format it, I'd gladly do it for you to help out with the chances of getting the information as easily accessible as possible.
 

Jupz

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
3,285
Location
Perth, Australia
#22
Wow this is crazy!!! Nice work Vayseth discovering the Pummel Break!! I loved this and I can't wait for the next installment :)
I knew sometimes characters didn't slide as far but I never knew why lol :p
 

CRASHiC

Smash Debater
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#23
lololololol
Show this to Lain and you'll get in the backroom all right.
This is just what the DDD boards needed for a boost.
A little bit of new information inspires new information from others.
 

Vayseth

Smash Master
Writing Team
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Messages
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#24
Even if I do get in the SBR, I hope it is for my TO skills and then hopefully my respect as a player. I gotta work on my placements before I feel qualified to enter that room.

Thank you all for your support! I have most of the data I need for Chapter 2 and I'll be working on getting it online in a couple hours.

MetalMusicMan- If you want to, I wouldn't mind it but I'd like at least for the whole thing to be out for a little while so it sorta forces people to read through the details first. Maybe starting Monday when people have had the weekend to view it should you start editing color and etc in. Thanks for your support!
 

CRASHiC

Smash Debater
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Messages
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#25
Make the color scheme purple and gold.
They are the two most used DDD colors.
Also, I hope your info and the standing helps us figure out the yoshi grab.
 

MetalMusicMan

Sleepwalk our lives away.
Joined
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#28
MetalMusicMan- If you want to, I wouldn't mind it but I'd like at least for the whole thing to be out for a little while so it sorta forces people to read through the details first. Maybe starting Monday when people have had the weekend to view it should you start editing color and etc in. Thanks for your support!
Haha, sounds good-- I'll just copy and paste and edit and PM it to you after Monday if you haven't already done it by then-- it looks like you already added some flare to the 2nd chapter though-- bravo sir!
 

Moozle

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Madison, WI
#30
Well this helps a lot. I was reading a thread on grab releases on the Yoshi boards yesterday and I was really confused lol. This cleared A LOT up for me. Thanks!
 

Vayseth

Smash Master
Writing Team
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#32
So modest too lol.

You should add in which characters can be hit by a Waddle Dee throw after dthrow.
I know right <3 If you make that list and PM it to me, I'll add it in. I've never attempted this and figured it was too slow. Is this confirmed? I only want natural combos that the opponent cannot get out of.

Well this helps a lot. I was reading a thread on grab releases on the Yoshi boards yesterday and I was really confused lol. This cleared A LOT up for me. Thanks!
Please spread the word! I made this for King Dedede players but the knowledge can help the majority of smashers.


Chapter 3 and 4 are shorter, so I'm going to start working on them now. Who knows, maybe it'll be done soon? =D

EDIT: I edited Chapter 1 a bit to show exactly which combos where guaranteed out of grab releases in easy-to-read lists. Enjoy!
 

Vayseth

Smash Master
Writing Team
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Messages
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#38
Thank you guys. I know it is quite a read (18 pages in Microsoft Word after C+P lol) so I understand if you guys don't take it all in.

There's still a couple ungrammatical sentences and some misc errors I'm fixing as I reread it, but if you see anything PM me will ya? I don't want this thread about anything that isn't related to the data.

EDIT: I added a couple subsections here and there that I forgot. 2 in Chapter 2 and 1 in Chapter 3. Man, this is slowly turning into a dissertation XD
 

Vayseth

Smash Master
Writing Team
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Messages
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#40
I am now scared of Dedede, I did not know his chain grabs was that in depth. O_o
They can be as shallow or as deep as you want them to be. Honestly, other characters benefit more from grab releasing than King Dedede, I just figured it was an avenue that us DDD mains never got into, so I researched the hell out of it.

I've reread everything, edited in some stuff, taken some stuff out, added color or bolding in areas so it's not just TEXT everywhere. There's also now more hyperlinks and they're better embedded in the post so they're not a huge eye sore. I hope you enjoy it. I think I'm done with it (finally. (...maybe).

It's also on AiB here: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=94648

EDIT: It's up to 20 pages now, lol.
 
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