If Super Smash Bros. Debuted Later

[MysticalCatlife]

Inspired by this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFSvuJXxUSk

My take would be somewhat of a Mario esque spin-off that features half Marioverse characters (including Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong) and the other half are from various Nintendo properties.

This would be the roster for the first game, titled "Mario All-Star Fray" (which would've launched for N64 in 2000):

Spoiler: ROSTER

01. Mario
02. Luigi
03. Peach
04. Bowser
05. Yoshi
06. Wario
07. Donkey Kong
08. Diddy Kong
09. Banjo & Kazooie
10. Conker
11. T.T. (assuming he warranted his own series)
12. MIPS (assuming he warranted his own series)

13. Link
14. Pit
15. Samus
16. Takamaru
17. Marth
18. Fox
19. Kirby
20. Tetrimono (based on the characters from the Virtual Boy title "3D Tetris")
21. Ryota Hayami
22. Captain Falcon
23. Lip
24. Pikachu

 

[Pupp135]

Thought exercises on seeing what would have happened if SSB started after 1999 are pretty interesting. If we’re specifically discussing SSB64, I’d assume that the latest release timeline would be the turn of the century, which would be around Mario Party 3/Pokemon Stadium 2/Paper Mario’s release.

Spoiler: Roster

​

Reasons
Given that this alternate timeline is about 2 years after the original, I meed to consider whether development still starts with 1997. If we still use 1997 or 1998 as the starting point, I think I’ll give myself about 12 fighters give or take for the base roster. At the minimum, the original eight are staying. I think I would have incorporated Fire Emblem, Mother, and Wario Land for initial planning. Marth would still be there as he’s the mascot, and Ness is there initially as I wouldn’t have too much information on Earthbound 64 at the time. Finally, Bowser would be the final proposed. As development went on, I could see myself at least consider Princess Peach, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, King Dedede, and Mewtwo for unique additions, and Luigi, Falco, Lucas, and Pichu for clones. In the end, I don’t think all nine of these fighters would be added. If I had to wager, the highest priorities would go to Princess Peach (let’s just assume that the polygon limitations are overcome here), Captain Falcon, Mewtwo, Luigi, Lucas, and Pichu. For secret fighters, let’s assume that Luigi, Bowser, Wario, Marth, Captain Falcon, Lucas, Pichu, and Mewtwo fill these spots.

Spoiler: Sequels

SSB2 (late 2004)

()(Eliwood)
(Blaziken)(Isaac)​

Reasons
Given that the alternate 64 released in late 2000/early 2001 planning probably starts in late 2001/early 2002, and I think a release between in holiday 2004 seems the most feasible given Double Dash for holiday 2003. In terms of cuts, Lucas and Pichu feel like the low hanging fruits, but I’m open to keeping Lucas as he’s kind of an OC at this point. If anyone else was cut, it would have been Captain Falcon or Mewtwo due to time constraints. Going into the newcomers, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, and Olimar seem obvious enough in addition to something from Legend of Zelda. For Legend of Zelda, Ganondorf is easier to work with in theory as there wouldn’t be much information on Wind Waker during planning, but I think the Zelda/Sheik duo is still relevant enough at the time. I think that Snake and Sonic could have joined here based on requests. As I don’t plan on adding too many more unique fighters, I’ll give myself three more unique newcomers. A new pokemon seems reasonable as Hoenn was relevant at the time. I‘ll pick Blaziken as it seems the most fighter ready of the three starters. For my remaining newcomers, I think Isaac would interest me as a character design-wise, and for the final newcomer, I’d like to include one more Nintendo franchise. Currently, I picked Mr. Game & Watch as a surprise choice. Princess Daisy, Toon Link, Falco, and Eliwood would be my clones. For unlockable fighters, I’ll have Princess Daisy, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon, Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Toon Link, Eliwood, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Snake, and Sonic.
SSB3 (between holiday 2008 and summer 2009)

()(Micaiah)
(Isaac)

​

Reasons
This one becomes pretty interesting because my Gamecube roster is larger, and almost half of Brawl’s newcomers were already present. In terms of cuts, Eliwood and Blaziken are the lowest hanging fruit. For enduring all-stars, Ganondorf and Meta Knight seem like the mext steps forward. For newer characters, I think Micaiah, Lucario, and Mii Fighters would join the roster. I think third party expansion would continue, where Mega Man and Pac-Man would be the next priorities. I also like the idea of a playable Pokemon Trainer. I’ll just finish it off with Zero Suit Samus, Pit, and R.O.B. for the same reasons they were added in Brawl, barring the removal of Zero Suit Samus as a transforming fighter.
SSBFor (holiday 2014, It’s far enough from SSBWii)

(Micaiah)
(Isaac)
​

With the absence of Wolf and Ice Climbers and Lucas becoming a higher priority due to senority bias in this scenario, I’ll just drop Snake and Pokemon Trainer here. Most of the unique Nintendo lineup would remain for the jump to For, but I’m replacing Robin with Chrom here as I have Micaiah. I think that I could’ve made Ridley work in For. For base third parties, I assume Bayonetta and Ryu would be next in line. DLC is weird, but I think this could have worked. The three cut characters before the Wii version return, and Cloud, Kazuya, and

I’ll later make future rosters for a late 2003/early 2004 SSB2 (I assume other games would have similar timelines, and it‘s a matter of how much content could actually fit then).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Smash 64 + Bowser + Peach + Wario + Diddy Kong + King Dedede + Mewtwo + Charizard + Marth.

I think that's just about it.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I’m going to go much later in the timeline to 2016, the final year of the Wii U.

Super Smash Bros. (2016)



​

It’s a small roster, of only 24, chosen from Nintendo’s biggest series at the time (don’t think about the butterfly effect too hard).

The game, like many Wii U games would get a port to the next system, the Nintendo Switch, alongside an extra seven characters on the roster. It released right before the COVID-19 pandemic.

Super Smash Bros. DX (2020)
[Cinderace]
()[Octoling]​

 

[chinkuru]

01. Mario
02. Luigi
03. Peach
04. Bowser
05. Yoshi
06. Wario
07. Toad
08. Donkey Kong
09. Diddy Kong & Dixie Kong
10. King K Rool
11. Banjo & Kazooie
12. Conker

13. Link
14. Zelda/Sheik
15. Ganondorf
16. Pikachu
17. Meowth
18. Mewtwo
19. Kirby
20. Samus
21. Ness
22. Captain Falcon
23. Joanna Dark
24. Fox

 

[RodNutTakin]

I've been waiting for a topic like this to show up for quite a while, to be honest. Tackling what-ifs is a favorite past-time of mine.
The video linked in the opening post actually ties in well to what I want to talk about, as it is about a few other videos made by the same creator as the one linked in the first post.
Prior to the Smash 64 video, David did a three-part series documenting his idea of an "ideal" Smash Bros. timeline. I'll link the three parts below:

What if Melee was the first Smash game?
What if Brawl was better?
What if Smash Wii U, 3DS, and Ultimate were 1 game?

I actually have my own personal takes/rebuttals on these three videos, particularly concerning the character selection, of course. But before I detail my personal opinions and "response rosters", I would genuinely like to know what everyone else's personal opinions are on the ideas and choices David presents here in these three videos.

For those wanting a quick TL;DW on the videos, I'll attach David's rosters here in the spoiler below:

Spoiler: David's what-if rosters

 

[BritishGuy54]

I've been waiting for a topic like this to show up for quite a while, to be honest. Tackling what-ifs is a favorite past-time of mine.
The video linked in the opening post actually ties in well to what I want to talk about, as it is about a few other videos made by the same creator as the one linked in the first post.
Prior to the Smash 64 video, David did a three-part series documenting his idea of an "ideal" Smash Bros. timeline. I'll link the three parts below:

What if Melee was the first Smash game?
What if Brawl was better?
What if Smash Wii U, 3DS, and Ultimate were 1 game?

I actually have my own personal takes/rebuttals on these three videos, particularly concerning the character selection, of course. But before I detail my personal opinions and "response rosters", I would genuinely like to know what everyone else's personal opinions are on the ideas and choices David presents here in these three videos.

For those wanting a quick TL;DW on the videos, I'll attach David's rosters here in the spoiler below:

Spoiler: David's what-if rosters

View attachment 395194View attachment 395195View attachment 395196

The Melee and Brawl rosters are generally fine.

The Ultimate roster is way too bloated though, leans too much towards the West in character choices, and lacks sufficient first party Nintendo additions.

 

[Veca Gorebyss]

•


the 2000 era was of loud. slamming. pop.

the game of super smash bros seemed. darker. mysterious. like. sega gargoyles.

so. just a bit of more years. and. i think it wouldve been a showstopper. like. big platformer. or with like. big party fiesta or something.

and definitely i think characters wild appearing like the inkling character from ultimate. says party character or something like that.


•

 

[RodNutTakin]

Oh jeez, I meant to follow up on my previous post like several days ago. Time certainly flies I guess.

For now, I will post the three rosters I made in response to David's videos, with some context given to each one.

Spoiler: Melee as the first Smash game

I followed the same general context as David's proposal of the original Smash taking its time to get off the ground after development begins in 1997. A decent chunk of the Nintendo cast would be worked on during the N64 phase of the project, with some extras added when development is moved to Dolphin dev kits. For third parties, I envisioned Bomberman and later a Rare character initially being the only ones proposed because of Nintendo's close relationships with their owners, with the idea of pitching other guests happening when negotiations with other companies revolving around the GameCube began happening. There would be an online survey posted in Japan just prior to the game moving to GameCube hardware, asking what characters people would want to see in a "video game crossover project", with responses being taken into account when the project plan is finalized in late 2000/early 2001. The one main difference is that Smash would be a 2002 release instead of Holiday 2001. Falco, Pichu, Roy, and Young Link are last minute clone characters.

Spoiler: The Wii sequel

I envisioned the Smash sequel in this hypothetical to be much closer to the previous game than Brawl was to Melee, the idea that this would be the last major project Sakurai would develop with HAL before leaving the company behind instead of Kirby Air Ride and Amazing Mirror. The aesthetic would be much closer to the previous game's instead of doing the gritty route (I only used Brawl renders in places for convenience), and overall the game would feel like an evolution of what the first game established. The other main difference would be the lack of a Subspace equivalent--the Adventure Mode would be a lot simpler and shorter without FMV cutscenes, to allow more time and budget to be spent on new characters and stages. Like last time, an online survey would be held asking for what characters people would want to see in a "sequel to Super Smash Bros.", this time being held very early in development, and for Western regions alongside Japan as well. This would influence some of the characters added onto the roster, alongside characters who had active series at the time, or were poised to have some presence on the Revolution/Wii, even if simply as Virtual Console appearances like Terry's case. The game would be a late November/December 2008 release in time for the holidays, and to space it out a bit further from Mario Kart Wii's release earlier in the year.

Spoiler: 3DS, Wii U, and Ultimate as a single large Switch game

I mainly followed David's weird proposal of the Switch being the Wii successor and the Wii U being a PS4 Pro-type deal for the Wii, leaving the next Smash to be on the Switch instead of on the U. Where I'd deviate from David's video is the development start and end times--Kid Icarus Uprising would still have to be a thing, so I'd pinpoint this game's dev cycle starting in early 2013 and finishing in late 2018, which would still match David's envisioned 5-year development cycle. As with the second game, a survey/ballot would be held worldwide for what characters people would like to see in a "new Smash Bros. project", but this would be the last time this would officially happen. While most of the roster was finalized early on, the decision to not have this game launch for the 2016-releasing Switch until a couple of years afterwards to ensure polish would allow for the Inkling and Spring Man to squeeze in as relatively last-minute inclusions, mainly being designed around concepts for both like in Incineroar's case. New third-party characters for base game would be primarily be additions for existing series on the roster, with Rayman being the one exception, having gotten a surge in Western demand thanks to his brand new 2D games reviving interest in the character. Everyone after Rayman on the roster is a DLC character, with said content not being finalized until the game was nearing completion in mid-to-late 2018.

Please tell me what you think, and feel free to ask questions regarding my character choices. I primarily wanted to take David's hypotheticals and work in a context where my character choices aren't arbitraily limited to what has mods available on Brawl Vault or GameBanana (which you could tell that David's Brawl and especially Ultimate videos are guilty of).

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

May as well take a fresh crack at this.

In this hypothetical, Sakurai opted to continue work on the prototype for his stealth/exploration RC robot game as an N64 title after wrapping Kirby Super Star, shelving the concept behind Dragon King: The Fighting Game for a later date. As such, that prototype - which I'll just call RC Robot for simplicity - released in 1999, as a modest (but not mind-blowing) success. After that game wraps, he'd then pursue development for Dragon King: The Fighting Game, which would be similar to that of the actual game's development. However, after presenting his initial prototype, the project - now being developed with Nintendo characters - would be bumped up to release on the upcoming Gamecube instead. It gets presented to the public during E3 2001 (albeit at a smaller scale), and releases during the holiday season of that year.

This puts us in the unique position of Melee not only technically being the first game in the series, but also having a significantly longer development period. Of course, there'll be other considerations to make here and there; most prominently, the concern that marketing staff had over Nintendo characters fighting each other, and the continuing downturn in the fighting game market as time passed.

As for characters...

Luigi Super Mario​	Mario Super Mario​	Donkey Kong Donkey Kong​	Marth Fire Emblem​	Samus Metroid​	Link The Legend of Zelda​	Ganondorf The Legend of Zelda​
Bowser Super Mario​	Yoshi Yoshi​	Wario Wario​	Fox Star Fox​	Kirby Kirby​	Pikachu Pokémon​	Mewtwo Pokémon​
	Lip Panel de Pon​	Lucas Mother​	Captain Falcon F-Zero​	King Dedede Kirby​	Scizor Pokémon​

• Mario, Donkey Kong, Samus and Fox - as in the original game - were the first characters showcased in the game's prototype.
• Captain Falcon, as originally the case, took most of his design and animations from the Dragon King prototype.
• As in the original game, some characters share animations or skeletons despite ostensibly not being clone characters - like Samus and Captain Falcon, Link and Marth, or Mario and Wario. Luigi is more of a direct semi-clone of Mario.
• The Pokémon characters that were picked were mandated not to be overly "cute", hence the inclusion of Scizor rather than more anime-popular picks like Togepi. Likewise, Marth's inclusion was partially done with Intelligent Systems' oversight.
• Link and Ganondorf were designed based on Ocarina of Time, but the inclusion of a sword in Ganondorf's moveset did not occur due to the Spaceworld 2000 demo being later on in this game's development. Instead, Ganondorf is a bruiser/mage with loose similarities to Mewtwo.
• Wario's design and concept is based predominantly on the Wario Land series.
• Several characters were considered or planned for inclusion, but cut for different reasons. These include;
  • Sukapon was originally planned as a "retro rep", but the inability for Nintendo to find documentation of their ownership of the character meant their inclusion was an impossibility.
  • Ness was originally considered over Lucas, but Lucas was included in light of Mother 3's upcoming development for the N64. By the time that project was canned and moved to the GBA, it was too late in development to change course.
  • Takamaru was given consideration, but was cut due to a lack of relevance in international markets; an issue that already existed with Marth, but that Sakurai managed to work around with some convincing.
  • Togepi would briefly have been considered as a character to use a variation of Kirby's model and would have used Metronome (in a similar vein to how Clefairy would have worked), but the aforementioned movement away from "cute" Pokémon meant they weren't allowed in.

A couple of other disparate notes, too.

• As in the first Super Smash Bros., characters only have three special moves rather than four, and that game's floatier feel compared to Melee's faster pace remains in place. This is for two reasons; firstly, the game's designed to more effectively mirror the control scheme of the Kirby series, and secondly, a more cartoonish presentation was necessary to get permission to use characters like those from the Mario or Pokémon franchises.
• Despite CD-quality music being included (as opposed to N64 arrangements), most of the music in the game maintains a smaller-scale presentation than Melee's full orchestra, mostly as a budgetary constraint. This does, however, allow for a wider breadth of genres to be represented.
• In a similar vein to the original game, a common criticism of this one would be a general lack of single-player content aside from Classic Mode and the like. I don't think that it'd be likely for Trophies to have been introduced this early on, let alone a full Adventure Mode.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Oh yeah, by the way, I took a look at David's newest hypothetical video, the one linked in the opening post.

Honestly...BARF.

Even if some may think his "Melee as the first game" hypothetical may have been unrealistic, I still found it more plausible than...this. At least with the Melee thing (and my rebuttal to it), you could handwave some things for both of those as being a result of Nintendo not making as many bad decisions during the N64 era and being less opposed to taking risks. But even with the hypothetical context of Nintendo being more financially secure, there is no way the first Smash would look like this without the hook of it being the "headline/main event" game of a brand new system.

Expect my rebuttal roster for this to be much smaller in comparison.