If some tournaments start enabling Auto L-Cancelling, how would you feel?

[Deleted member]

Would you still play in a tournament that had it enabled? or would you choose not to play for specific reasons?

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Would feel very indifferent at first then throughout the day worry more and more it's been turned off by someone. Would still l cancel everything due to muscle memory.

 

[CORY]

Ambivalent, mostly. It doesn't affect core gameplay, really, and you can still muscle memory input the shield for it and not get any adverse issues unless you mistimed it.

 

[Spralwers]

I would love it. Part of why I play smash is the tech skill requirement is much less stringent than other fighters (like KoF 13) so I can focus much more on outwitting my opponent. I can play and all my opponents can play to a consistently higher level and I would enjoy it. My tech skill in other areas (b reversing, wavebouncing, edge canceling, and character specific tech skill) would shoot up since I don't have to waste time/worry with/about L canceling.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i would love it and enter just to see the impact.

All we have now is theory.

 

[Bleck]

I would be pleased, l-canceling is dumb

 

[Guel]

Would feel like im surrounded by scrubs @_@

 

[teluoborg]

Subjectively I'd say that when you put time and effort into getting consistent at L canceling it's frustrating to know that newer players won't have to work as hard to get the same results.
Objectively though, I'd say L cancel is a mechanism that articifially raises the skill floor while adding nothing to the game's competitive depth.
You must L cancel, all the time. There is no place for strategic decisions or mindgames that you can find in DI or tech chases.

So in the end I'd say if you have the option to make the game more accessible to new players without removing competitive depth then why not ? It won't make a difference for the people that L cancel 100% of the time anyway.

 

[Droß]

i would love it and enter just to see the impact.

All we have now is theory.

I might try this someday, just to see what happens. A small throwaway weekly or an internal team bracket would be the best starting point IMO.

Also in b4 the L-Cancel debate again. This is like the abortion issue of the Smash Bros community.

 

[Deleted member]

i would love it and enter just to see the impact.

All we have now is theory.

I hosted one yesterday and it felt super fun for me, and people enjoyed themselves but the finale since some people didn't know and I had to restart the game a few times, this one individual didn't want it on in finals. I went ahead and left it off which I really shouldn't have done but I learned my lesson.

If I host another tournament like this, I could definitely use a build that has Auto L-Cancelling on by default. Preferably where it cannot be turned off no matter what.

 

[Bleck]

This is like the abortion issue of the Smash Bros community.

you're right, it's very similar to an argument where there's a side that's right and a side that's a bunch of idiot pissbabies who can't think

 

[DrinkingFood]

Would feel like im surrounded by scrubs @_@

Really? Enabling something in-game reduces the skill of the players around you? Fascinating. Perhaps we can harness this effect to funnel skill from one player to another, allowing me to be become that best at every game ever

 

[SunJester]

When you turn auto-L cancelling on it will not effect muscle memory. If you l-cancel an aerial it will not cause you to shield, or mess up your movement at all. Basically it "registers" the l-cancel like normal but if you miss the l-cancel it will still l-cancel.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right, but I feel like the people who argue against the auto l-cancelling don't understand that it won't effect their muscle memory at all. Even if you attempt to l-cancel with auto l-cancelling on it will not slow you down.

I feel like you could turn auto l-cancelling on during a tournament and almost no one would notice.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll be willing to host more tournaments under this, however I would like if I could have Auto L-Cancelling enabled by default and unable to be turned off to make it easier. If this was possible some how and anyone would like modify the game to do this I'd greatly appreciate it.

I'm uncertain if it's simply a GCT edit or not.

 

[himemiya]

Wouldn't even bother with it (even if there wasn't an entrance fee), It'd be scrub bait. :/

 

[Deleted member]

Wouldn't even bother with it (even if there wasn't an entrance fee), It'd be scrub bait. :/

Well, actually let's analyze that for a second. If someone with it on managed to beat you, would you still feel they are scrub? Auto L-Cancelling is an even playing field.

 

[SunJester]

Plus lets not forget how often people say characters "hurt their hands" or have their hands hurt from prolonged playing of Melee and such.

Wouldn't it be nice to take off some of that strain by removing L-Cancelling? Making life easier for your fingers while still enjoying the game sounds like a win-win to me.

 

[CORY]

Oh boy! Here we go!

 

[Cha Cha San]

I only play with it on. L-Cancelling is just a mechanic that brings nothing good to the table. It's like putting in a mechanic that says "press up, down, A while stage is loading or start with 25% damage on you". There's no reason not to do it and it adds nothing meaningful but you still have to do it.

 

[LeadRod]

you're right, it's very similar to an argument where there's a side that's right and a side that's a bunch of idiot pissbabies who can't think

saaaaaaaaalt

 

[LeadRod]

When you turn auto-L cancelling on it will not effect muscle memory. If you l-cancel an aerial it will not cause you to shield, or mess up your movement at all. Basically it "registers" the l-cancel like normal but if you miss the l-cancel it will still l-cancel.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right, but I feel like the people who argue against the auto l-cancelling don't understand that it won't effect their muscle memory at all. Even if you attempt to l-cancel with auto l-cancelling on it will not slow you down.

I feel like you could turn auto l-cancelling on during a tournament and almost no one would notice.

Idk, when I play and I see that I am missing L-Cancels I consciously adjust my timing to account for it. With auto L-canceling I wouldn't be able to do that and (for me at least) it would mess up my timing.

I also (even though it is arguably unnecessary) enjoy seeing someone who both is able to outsmart their opponent while using tech skill because it shows a level of intimacy with the character and game itself that's able to surmount an obstacle (even if it is an arbitrary obstacle).

 

[Jamble]

Wouldn't even bother with it (even if there wasn't an entrance fee), It'd be scrub bait. :/

Your complaint would be that it'd bring competitors that wouldn't be there otherwise? In a way that does not affect the actual skill level or competitive depth of the game? Auto L canceling wouldn't scare away people who are actually good at the game, and if it brings in some "scrubs", those are just some easy wins in your back pocket before getting to the people who are actually good.

People need to keep in mind that all great players start as scrubs, and the more tournament representation and participation PM can gather, the healthier and more robust the scene will be and the more developed the meta will get. If auto L canceling is really a big enough deal to do that (which I'm not sure it is), why wouldn't people running tournaments try it?

I feel like the dumb little L cancel debate is just a thin veil for what really amounts to a different debate entirely related to community openness. The issue itself is of very little consequence, so I can't help but think it's more about whether or not PM players want a more "exclusive" scene. But that's just my two cents worth.

 

[Bleck]

I feel like the dumb little L cancel debate is just a thin veil for what really amounts to a different debate entirely related to community openness.

to a lot of people, more players is frightening, because they might find out that they're not actually that good at the game, and then poof, precious self-esteem points lost

 

[Jamble]

Yeah maybe, I really don't even pretend to know anybody's motivation in the strong opposition to auto L-canceling. To me, the reactions are way stronger than the issue which at the very least hints at a different problem.

 

[SunJester]

I feel like the dumb little L cancel debate is just a thin veil for what really amounts to a different debate entirely related to community openness. The issue itself is of very little consequence, so I can't help but think it's more about whether or not PM players want a more "exclusive" scene. But that's just my two cents worth.

This.

I think for a lot of people the logic is "I've done my work, I've learned L-Cancelling, I've learned Wavedashing, I put in my work they should have to as well!" Which I think is flawed logic. Its like going back in time and seeing people talk about how using a calculator over and abacus basically "cheating" and "they'll never learn math that way"

Its the old "I had to walk to school for FIVE miles in 50 foot high snow, up hill, BOTH WAYS!" You have to accept that as a civilization we have to make the basic skills easier so we can push ourselves further in the advanced skills. I don't think a person here would argue against the fact that basic AT like L-cancelling (and by extension shffl'ing) and Wavedashing are essential skills to learn to even compete at a basic level of this game. Don't we want more players? Honestly maybe ease of play initially will lead them to become more involved in the scene. At the very least they might take a passing interest to play once a month and go to one or two tournies a year, that's contributing to the scene. Ease of play is incredibly useful for the longevity of the game. Giving players a taste of speed gives them incentive to learn more AT's for greater speed.

Lower the skill floor. You can't hurt the skill ceiling.

 

[Jamble]

Sunjester here basically articulated the sort of point I was trying to get at better than I'd have ever managed to. PM is a great game that deserves a thriving scene, and in some ways that requires people to change their attitudes toward new players, L canceling, etc. What got me into PM initially wasn't any advanced techs, wavedashing, etc. It was just that it was a fun, fluid feeling game that I enjoyed spending time on. On some level, it makes sense to make it easier for newbies to dip their toes in, get a feel for the game and what characters are capable of. They'll be more likely to take the plunge into the world of ATs and whatnot in the long run. L canceling is something that adds more fluidity in the transition between aerial and ground combat, but at the end of the day, it's just an extra button press. I doubt the button press whether present or not will ruin anybody's fun.

 

[Cha Cha San]

The ease at which you can do speedy, flashy things and combos is what makes PM fun to me. I don't think arbitrary advanced mechanics has ever attracted anyone.

 

[Paquito]

I'm glad the devs didn't make it automatic by default because the slow recovery animations look better (you get a better sense of the relative weight of the characters), so I like to have auto-l cancel turned off when I'm playing casually with friends.

In a tournament setting, I don't think I'd mind, for all the reasons mentioned above.

 

[JOE!]

Idk, when I play and I see that I am missing L-Cancels I consciously adjust my timing to account for it. With auto L-canceling I wouldn't be able to do that and (for me at least) it would mess up my timing.

You wouldnt notice though since every aerial would L-cancel... you wouldn't see the "missed" ones lol

 

[LeadRod]

You wouldnt notice though since every aerial would L-cancel... you wouldn't see the "missed" ones lol

Yeah. That's why it would mess me up lmao. XD

When I go back to playing normally if my timing would had gone off I wouldn't have been able to correct for it.

 

[LightningDragon]

L-Cancelling is just gimmicky. It adds absolutely nothing and it has no reason than the subjective idea of "it feels good".

Funnily enough, the same people who defend L-Cancelling are willing to attack other things that are "gimmicks". The double-standard is real.

 

[4tlas]

First off: I don't L-cancel and I don't intend to learn. I am perfectly happy competing with that disadvantage.

I think if the biggest regular tournament around ran auto-L-cancelling, I'd go to that tournament only. Otherwise, I'd probably avoid that tournament. I get very easily screwed up for weeks by playing on Netplay or even playing *any* game that uses a Gamecube controller, and I don't like to practice. Switching between auto-L-cancel and manual-L-cancel would make me terrible. So in that sense, I understand the grievances of people who regularly L-cancel and want to attend multiple tournaments.

Otherwise, as a TO, I would say its a net positive for everyone. More inclusive community, lower barrier to entry, and a better game all-around.

 

[fsck!]

I would not be spending money to enter that tournament. If everyone there can suddenly l cancel perfectly I feel my time spent learning the game is not valued by the TO/s.

 

[CORY]

so the only skill that is of any importance is learning lcancel timing?

 

[fsck!]

so the only skill that is of any importance is learning lcancel timing?

That's not what I said at all.

 

[CORY]

If everyone there can suddenly l cancel perfectly I feel my time spent learning the game is not valued by the TO/s.

the only thing that changes between auto and manual lcancelling is the fact that you have to input the lcancel to get the reduced landing lag. you can do the input as though it were manual with the auto on and it doesn't affect anything gameplay-wise.

therefore, the only thing that you would have spent time learning that changes between the two versions would be lcancelling. timing, spacing, baiting, punishing are all functionally the same.

 

[fsck!]

the only thing that changes between auto and manual lcancelling is the fact that you have to input the lcancel to get the reduced landing lag. you can do the input as though it were manual with the auto on and it doesn't affect anything gameplay-wise.

It makes both players work at the speed of perfect l cancelling, despite the fact one (or both?) of the players cannot 100% consistently.

therefore, the only thing that you would have spent time learning that changes between the two versions would be lcancelling. timing, spacing, baiting, punishing are all functionally the same.

So basically, player A is at the same movement advantage as the average two-and-out Mario main they had to go up against round 1, despite the fact he's pretty adamant that he doesn't want to learn to l cancel, and you're ok with that. That's fine. You do you. I just know that I will not be attending tournaments where the TOs cater to weaker players to make the game "more even." As stated above by someone else, it will likely be scrub central.

 

[CORY]

so then the most important aspect of the game is lcancelling, then?

 

[fsck!]

so then the most important aspect of the game is lcancelling, then?

If your objective is to troll your opinion into me, you're going to fail.

Good day, CORY.

 

[CORY]

no, my objective is to point out that your logic sucks.

if it's scrub central, show up and steal their money.

but you can't do that because they'll be on even footing with you now? why's that?

oh, auto lcancelling? you're not going to be a better player due to a better neutral, understanding spacing better, or having a better punish game. your ability to pick up on their patterns quickly and catch yourself before you start getting too obvious with your own is now meaningless?

or does auto lcancelling suddenly make all of that the same, as well?