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If melee HD is released some time recently, should Nintendo attempt to balance the game?

RagnorokX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
63
The big reason behind this is trying to see what other people think nintendo can get away with without splitting the melee community in half.

I believe that they can alleviate breaking the community and start shifting it over to melee HD by:Not nerfing or changing the high tier characters, and just buffing lower tiers, and also probably mid tiers some. They would also have to support melee HD tournaments by supplying Wii U's, or smaller tournaments won't be melee HD, they'll be melee because they already have the tools for melee, and don't have the means to get Wii Us for melee HD.
 

B-Will

BRoomer
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I believe that they can alleviate breaking the community and start shifting it over to melee HD by:Not nerfing or changing the high tier characters, and just buffing lower tiers, and also probably mid tiers some.
This. I can't stress this enough. If they nerfed high tiers, I can see those users becoming discouraged with the game. I think melee would be amazing if only low tiers / mid tiers were buffed. Furthermore, I WOULD NOT want patches or DLC or anything of the sort. I don't like the idea of the tier list constantly changing due to constant updates to the game.
 

Uchihadark7

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
243
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Idaho
The big reason behind this is trying to see what other people think nintendo can get away with without splitting the melee community in half.

I believe that they can alleviate breaking the community and start shifting it over to melee HD by:Not nerfing or changing the high tier characters, and just buffing lower tiers, and also probably mid tiers some. They would also have to support melee HD tournaments by supplying Wii U's, or smaller tournaments won't be melee HD, they'll be melee because they already have the tools for melee, and don't have the means to get Wii Us for melee HD.
If Melee HD were made, they would probably make it the PAL version.
 

CptJPuff

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
313
If you buffed all the mid/low characters, it wouldn't be a "Melee HD". It'd be a foreign game that would probably die off in a week because it's not the Melee we know and love.

It's more than likely fair to say that when the majority of the Melee community thinks of "Melee HD", it constitutes of having zero changes to any gameplay elements, except graphics.
Or, ya know. Just a bad meme.

But following through with your idea, I don't necessarily understand that last sentence of your post. So, you're saying that larger tournaments should get Melee HD, a game completely different from Melee, while smaller tournaments should stay vanilla Melee? That's completely contradicting your vision of not splitting the Melee community in half.
 

Slip33

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
72
I think they should. I wouldn't see point of them releasing it without balance changes. However, I don't think people really play Melee for balance. The game will receive much backlash if the high tiers receive nerfs, regardless if it was for balance.
 

B-Will

BRoomer
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If you buffed all the mid/low characters, it wouldn't be a "Melee HD". It'd be a foreign game that would probably die off in a week because it's not the Melee we know and love.
I disagree. When Brawl came out, melee was in danger of dying because everyone wanted to play the new game. It is not because of the number of characters there were or how balanced it was [or wasn't] that discouraged us from playing brawl, it was because of the lack of movement options, tripping, defensive game play, etc that brawl possessed.

If melee came out without ANY change to the game play but only had better graphics and a balancing of characters (again, just buffing low tiers), I 100% believe that the community would welcome it. Hell, I would even encourage them to add more characters and stages just as long as there isn't a broken character within the cast, e.g. metaknight.
 

Uchihadark7

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I disagree. When Brawl came out, melee was in danger of dying because everyone wanted to play the new game. It is not because of the number of characters there were or how balanced it was [or wasn't] that discouraged us from playing brawl, it was because of the lack of movement options, tripping, defensive game play, etc that brawl possessed.

If melee came out without ANY change to the game play but only had better graphics and a balancing of characters (again, just buffing low tiers), I 100% believe that the community would welcome it. Hell, I would even encourage them to add more characters and stages just as long as there isn't a broken character within the cast, e.g. metaknight.
Input lag would still be an issue though.
 

RagnorokX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
63
But following through with your idea, I don't necessarily understand that last sentence of your post. So, you're saying that larger tournaments should get Melee HD, a game completely different from Melee, while smaller tournaments should stay vanilla Melee? That's completely contradicting your vision of not splitting the Melee community in half.
I probably just missaid what I meant to. Im saying while nintendo should give smaller tournaments the tools they need to play melee HD, because otherwise they'll just play melee. Larger tournaments would have more resources, and wouldn't need as much support from nintendo on the hardware and software side of things.


If you buffed all the mid/low characters, it wouldn't be a "Melee HD". It'd be a foreign game that would probably die off in a week because it's not the Melee we know and love.

It's more than likely fair to say that when the majority of the Melee community thinks of "Melee HD", it constitutes of having zero changes to any gameplay elements, except graphics.
I don't know, project M seems to be doing fine. On a more serious hand, I really don't know. I think it would be a good change of pace.


Input lag would still be an issue though.
Melee has input lag, so why would input lag be an issue?
 

Uchihadark7

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I probably just missaid what I meant to. Im saying while nintendo should give smaller tournaments the tools they need to play melee HD, because otherwise they'll just play melee. Larger tournaments would have more resources, and wouldn't need as much support from nintendo on the hardware and software side of things.




I don't know, project M seems to be doing fine. On a more serious hand, I really don't know. I think it would be a good change of pace.




Melee has input lag, so why would input lag be an issue?
Melee has minimal lag because its played on CRT's. Melee HD's purpose would be for better visuals so there would be no reason to play HD on a CRT over the original.
 

RagnorokX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
63
Melee has minimal lag because its played on CRT's. Melee HD's purpose would be for better visuals so there would be no reason to play HD on a CRT over the original.
Hmmmm.... How much input lag does project m have?
 

RagnorokX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
63
OK thanks for the answer. I was just being lazy there. I really don't know then.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
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Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
Melee has minimal lag because its played on CRT's. Melee HD's purpose would be for better visuals so there would be no reason to play HD on a CRT over the original.
I think with better input polling code and real 60 fps output that is actually in sync with the game (as opposed to 59,94 fields ps), lag could be made lower than on current crt setups. Even though best lcd displays are still slower than crt.

Frame processing times could probably be lowered as well while still improving visuals.

I'm kind of guessing though, could be wrong.
 
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Slip33

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72
Everyone say buff the low tiers. What if nerfing the high tiers is a more easy or doable solution?
 

Slip33

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May 28, 2016
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72
Do people feel the PAL version is balanced well, or should it go further? Needs more changes?
 
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Stick Dude

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Which melee though?

Personally I'd like it to be PAL with NTSC ganondorf. PAL ganondorf is just stupid, otherwise PAL is better imo.
I prefer NTSC but I'd be okay with PAL.

Everyone say buff the low tiers. What if nerfing the high tiers is a more easy or doable solution?
Maybe, but that would alienate the people who play those characters, and that would hurt sales.
 
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Spak

Hero of Neverwinter
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Don't know about that. I think most of the players here with PAL exp prefer pal because of fox and sheik dthrow nerfs.
People generally prefer PAL unless they play Fox (dash attack, U-Smash, D-Smash, and Up-B nerfed, weight decrease), Falco (Dair significantly nerfed), Shiek (Uair and D-Smash nerfed, can't chaingrab), Marth (Dair is a meteor and sends them straight down (so they can tech the stage if they DI or they could meteor cancel), aerial speed slowed down, weight decrease), Ganon (Fair sends them 2/3 of the normal distance, Dair nerfed), Link (Lingering hitbox no longer a semi-spike), Mario (minimal weight drop), or Samus (extended grapple can't be used, can't bomb jump out of grapple.) There are some people that prefer NTSC 1.0 for low tiers (Ness' Up-B doesn't despawn if he's hit, Bowser can flame cancel, you can't SDI out of a lot of Zelda's moves, Ganon's Nair is faster, Link and YL can't use the boomerang cancel to get out of grapple.) I've played on PAL with a guy who moved here from New Zealand, and I honestly prefer NTSC over PAL.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
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Messages
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So you think players generally evaluate the version based on how good their one main char happens to be in them? That honestly seems weird to me. I main fox, and used to main sheik, the 2 characters that really got hit by the nerfs. All the other top tier characters have better mu spreads in PAL compared to NTSC, though Marth is arguable.
 

Spak

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So you think players generally evaluate the version based on how good their one main char happens to be in them? That honestly seems weird to me. I main fox, and used to main sheik, the 2 characters that really got hit by the nerfs. All the other top tier characters have better mu spreads in PAL compared to NTSC, though Marth is arguable.
That's a fair point, but everyone that I know who has tried PAL (who didn't grow up with it) can't get over johning about how their character has been nerfed, no matter to what extent.
 
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tauKhan

Smash Lord
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That's a fair point, but everyone that I know who has tried PAL (who didn't grow up with it) can't get over johning about how their character has been nerfed, no matter to what extent.
Okay, I think you're actually right. I just got triggered by the original comment I responded to, because it appeared so NTSC region centric to me. But I guess it was more or less correct, since PAL player base is significantly smaller than NTSC base.

I still believe that if people were able to look at it from more objective perspective instead of the perspective of "I've played this game for 10+ years, I don't want my main randomly nerfed", PAL would be preffered. We'll never know though, unless PAL gets forced on US by Nintendo releasing remake or something.
 

SSG SAX GAMER

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Definantely not because the game is already good and works, so There's no reason to mess with it. I think even making pal version of the game was uneeded and unnecessary
 

iAmMatt

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Everyone say buff the low tiers. What if nerfing the high tiers is a more easy or doable solution?
Nerfing the high tiers would just take away from the competitive spirit of the game, while buffing the low tiers would add more variety. It might be more work, but it would make for a much better game in the long run, both competitively and casually.
 

Vorde

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If it was a 1:1 copy of Melee v1.02 NTSC then I would buy it the day it came out. If they changed anything about it, I wouldn't even consider playing it. If it's changed, it's not Melee
 

iAmMatt

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If it was a 1:1 copy of Melee v1.02 NTSC then I would buy it the day it came out. If they changed anything about it, I wouldn't even consider playing it. If it's changed, it's not Melee
If the game remained unchanged, I think they would call it Melee HD, but if there were changes it would need a different name. Project Melee or something like that sounds good ;)
 

greatbernard

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Messages
124
Why not just make it a choice. Traditional Mode and Plus Mode.

Here are the changes I would enact:

Fox
  • Falling speed from 2.8 -> 2.2
  • All attacks (that inflict over 5 damage) inflict 1 less damage
  • All aerial attacks have 5 additional frames of end lag.
Falco
  • Falling speed reduced from 3.1 -> 1.9
  • All attacks (which inflict between 3-10 damage) inflict 1 less damage
  • All smash and tilt attacks have 5 additional frames of end lag.
Marth
  • Running speed reduced from 1.8 -> 1.6
  • Grab range is reduced to slightly above median.
  • Excluding sweetspots, all attacks inflict 3 less damage per hit
Sheik
  • Weight reduced from 90 to 80
  • Forward air does 4 damage instead of 13
  • Needles do 1 damage each instead of 3
  • All Tilts, Throws and Smash Attacks do 2 less damage
  • Chain (side-B) does triple damage, has 1/4 the start lag and 1/2 the end lag
Game & Watch
  • Larger shield
  • Dash attack, F-Tilt, D-Smash, U-Smash and U-Air have 30% less start lag
  • Chef (B) has 20% less start lag, 20% less end lag and projectiles do 5 damage (instead of 3)
  • Judge (Side B): #1 does 21 damage with no recoil (instead of 2 damage with 12% recoil)
  • Oil Panic (Down B) has 20% less start lag and 80% less end lag
Roy
  • Weight from 85 to 105
  • While charging Flare Blade (B), Roy is unaffectedy weak (<5 dmg) projectile
  • Blazer (Up B) can be activated a second consecutive time.
  • Counter (Down B) end lag is reduced by 20%
  • Third varation of Double-Edge Dance does 4 additional damage
  • Forward and back throw do 10 damage instead of 5
  • Neutral attack does 8
Mewtwo

  • Weight from 85 to 110
  • Falling speed from 1.5 to 2
  • All attacks do 1 more damage
  • Disable (Down B) has slightly longer range and 20% less end lag
  • Dash attack and Down smash end lag reduced by 30%
  • Forward and Up smash gains more knockback
Zelda

  • Weight from 90 to 100
  • Falling speed from 1.4 to 1.9
  • Running speed from 1.1 to 1.3
  • All tilts, smashes and aerials do 1 more damage
  • Naryu's Love (B) and dash attack have 25% less end lag
  • Din's Fire (Side B) inflicts double damage (7-13 -> 14-26) and is invisible until released.
  • Din's Fire (Side B) has 20% less start lag, 30% less end lag and 50% more projectile speed
  • Farore's Wind (Up B) has 15% less start lag, 30% less end lag and triple damage (4 -> 12)
Ness
  • PK Flash (B) has 20% faster projectile speed and 50% less end lag
  • PK Thunder (Up B) has 20% more projectile speed in air and 50% more on ground
  • PK Fire (Side B) has 20% less start lag and 20% less end lag
  • PSI Magnet (Down B) makes Ness invincible from frames 5 to 10
  • PSI Magnet (Down B) inflicts 10 damage on contact with enemy.
  • All smash, aerial, grab and tilt attacks inflict 2 more damage
Pichu
  • Weight increased from 55 to 75
  • Running speed from 1.7 to 2.5 (highest in game)
  • All recoil damage is cut in half
Bowser
  • Weight from 117 to 125
  • Falling speed from 1.9 to 3.0
  • All attacks do 2 more damage
  • Hitbox range of Fire Breath (B) is increased by 20%
Kirby
  • Running speed from 1.4 to 1.6
  • Projectile range for Final Cutter (up-B) is increased by 50%
  • Startup lag for Final Cutter (up-B) is reduced by 20%
  • Startup lag for Stone (down-B) is reduced by 20%
 
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-ACE-

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PAL would pave the way for 666XX lol, I know hungrybox wouldn't complain.

:denzel:

I don't really know what to say about this. I feel like VERY slight buffs could exist for low\mid tiers, but it takes a long time to fully understand the effects of the changes. We are still debating matchups to this very day on a game that hasn't changed in 15 years. I say this (about the buffs) because no matter what, it probably wouldn't be exactly the same. I'm ignorant to programming, but I really feel slight differences would exist, for whatever reason. Making the buffs very slight would limit the "aww ****, we ****ed up, we shouldn't have made that change" factor, as well as limit the learning curve for existing melee players picking up melee HD (many will be turned off by multiple significant changes). Melee is like the butterfly effect, one little change often leads to a completely different outcome. Giving a character 1 frame less L-cancel lag changes 26 matchups, making new options possible, altering the risk vs reward dynamic, etc. The after effect is immeasurable with any change.

Changes I feel (as of this moment) would be good....

-remove certain glitches
-SLIGHTLY better shields for characters with bad shields
-SLIGHTLY alter backdash buffer to eliminate backdash inconsistency issue with controllers lacking dash sensitivity
-SLIGHTLY alter shield drop window to make it SLIGHTLY easier (I don't know if I like this, the good controllers become even more free)
-pichu no longer hurting himself
-game and watch capable of doing 2 number 9's consecutively
-make it so that all throws do damage in all matchups
-give DK an aerial down-B
-make all aerials (not B-moves) capable of L-cancel
-fix stadium so you can't fall through the stage
-PERHAPS have obstructions and transformations removed from certain stages (stretch)
-SLIGHTLY buffing certain hitboxes that have almost no "priority" (add a pixel)... (quite a stretch, big maybe)
-giving certain characters the ability to tech and walltech shine, possibly even walljump (stretch)


^^ I am not sure of these, and there are many more, but you can see I wouldn't want to change the game that much. This is just what I have off the top.
 
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Ravengeance

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I could see a slight and I mean slight nerf to Fox like not anything that would change how he is played or his combo game at all maybe like his Up Smash has slightly decreased knockback growth. Just like a tiny thing that maybe he needs an extra 5-10% to KO with Up Smash. (That's still like maybe just to appease everyone that is all Melee is just Fox's)

I would like to see wobbling removed but Nana's base AI increased to compensate. (That's my opinion, I don't like wobbling as a viewer but I play Fox so I hold I have no right to complain about wobbling) I think it would make ICs more entertaining to watch and remove a mechanic a lot of people still hate.

I don't think any other nerfs at all would be liked by the community. Smash Wii U patches for the last year and a half have completely changed characters combo game and broken moves and people have spent over a year trying to master a particular character. It would be far worse in Melee where people have dedicated years to a character. Absolutely no touches should be made to falco, sheik, marth, puff, peach, falcon.

I think there is too much risk in buffing the pikachu, samus, ganon, luigi, dr mario/mario tier. So any buffs to them should only be like X move does Y more damage now. All other characters should be buffed to samus/ganon/luigi level. I just think you can't let other characters come in and dethrown the top tiers bc it's taken so long for the meta to develop for those top tier characters. Like you can make a character as good as like falcon maybe but the top 6 should still be fox marth falco sheik puff and peach. Essentially I think the tier list should be 2 tiers. The top 6 would literally still be God tier bc it is comprised of the 6 characters played by the gods. And every other character would be A tier.
 

Matt11111

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Well, considering they CAN do it, I don't see why not.
 

Don De La Gato

Smash Rookie
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Jun 11, 2016
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Bermuda//UK
It's not very often that a company reintroduces an old game with an HD makeover and doesn't screw it up somehow, so I'd say Nintendo should leave it as is.
 

Mr Snak3_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
75
Don't change anything from ntsc version except maybe fix the falling through Pokemon stadium,
Nothing else, no buffs, no nerfs. Or else we'll get brawl vs melee all over again.
 
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