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If I had to buff link

YoshiNuub

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
7
1. Make his ariels faster and less laggy when not Z cancelled
2. Make his grab hitbox a bit bigger in order to make it more worth using
3. Make his grab a bit faster
4. Make his dashing speed faster
5. Make his jumos much higher
6. Make F-tilt and F-smash faster for easier K.O
7. Faster bomb pull
8. Faster bombs
9. More bomb damage
10. Faster Boomerang
11. Decrease hurtbox to compensate for his size
12. Turn D-air into meteor smash
13. Make his recovery actually viable
14. Slower fall speed
15. Make his shield protect from projectiles
16. Make his air speed faster
17. Give nair a longer lasting hitbox/animation
18. Make his sword longer
19. Make his up-b meteor smash
20. Idk I don't have one for 20
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
267
Location
Baltimore
1. Make his ariels faster and less laggy when not Z cancelled
2. Make his grab hitbox a bit bigger in order to make it more worth using
3. Make his grab a bit faster
4. Make his dashing speed faster
5. Make his jumos much higher
6. Make F-tilt and F-smash faster for easier K.O
7. Faster bomb pull
8. Faster bombs
9. More bomb damage
10. Faster Boomerang
11. Decrease hurtbox to compensate for his size
12. Turn D-air into meteor smash
13. Make his recovery actually viable
14. Slower fall speed
15. Make his shield protect from projectiles
16. Make his air speed faster
17. Give nair a longer lasting hitbox/animation
18. Make his sword longer
19. Make his up-b meteor smash
20. Idk I don't have one for 20
EDIT: I feel like the initial post is a troll post and isn't even serious.
I'll address each of these with detail, as a read through them. I literally have like 20,000 games on Link and I'm not joking.

Number 1 - Link basically has the best Nair in the game IMO. Frame 4 sex kick that can auto cancel. This attack by itself can literally control neutral in some match ups. I'm not joking either. I can literally beat some characters just by standing in place and spamming auto cancel nairs and doing landing parry or spotdodge depending if the opponent runs at me or jumps. Also, I don't think backair is a problem as far as speed goes. I successfully use it out of shield in a great many situations. Forward air is a kill move, and I don't think it needs to be faster. Downair is also a kill move with a spike hitbox, and upair is also a kill move that MOST characters can NOT challenge, until Link lands or if they end up under him. Their ONLY safe option is to air dodge, which isn't exactly a "safe" option. By the way, If you're looking for a fast aerial on Link, just use his Nair. That thing is honestly ridiculous.

Number 2 - I'd say his grab is worth using regardless of its range. Think of it this way, you have downthrow into uptilt (except at kill percents), which after uptilt, gives you a RPS situation. Your opponent will either falling aerial, jump, or air dodge, most of which will jump. I think the issue lies more with his followups out of grab rather than the range itself. I wouldn't mind a small budge to the grabbox size but it isn't holding me back from grabbing people either.

Number 3 - What do you mean by 'faster grab'? He has an actual grab in this game, and it isn't a tether so it's already faster than it ever used to be.

Number 4 - Full dash speed I feel like is fine. You will actually cover a very slight more distance if you fox trot instead. You can do this by repeatedly clicking the stick in one direction for the initial dash, rather than holding it for a full dash. It actually is a better left to right movement option. I will agree that his initial run speed is kind of meh, but we are talking about a character that can kill and edge guard reliably. Does he really need to be faster on the feet? I feel like Link is uber broke with more speed as I tried out speed buffs in Spirits matches and people just couldn't get in but I could.

Number 5 - Why higher jumps? Do you mean his full hop, his short hop or his double jump? If you want his initial jump to be higher, congratulations, Link just lost all of his z drop bomb regrab combo utility as well as his infinite on super fast fallers and super heavies. Another reason I strongly disagree with this is because Links recovery already being absolutely amazing. It has no business being even better. He can already jump infinitely with a bomb.

Number 6 - face-palm

Number 7 & 8 - These appear to basically be the same thing. Faster bomb pulls and faster bombs. This is the one I disagree with the most. If you want to break Link, you let him pull more bombs. That bomb is by itself one of the BEST attacks in the game for SO MANY reasons, It has the Snake Grenade and Nikita treatment, where the attack itself is better than the character using it. I have absolutely 0 issues with getting bombs out safely. I am usually pulling them while the opponent is either in hit stun or while moving through the air jumping toward or away from the opponent. If you can't pull bombs reliably, it's not the bombpull speeds fault, it's your own. This has never been and never will be an issue for me or any high caliber Link player. In fact, we usually have an issue with a WHOLE DIFFERENT projectile.

Number 9 - why more damage on the bomb? It kills, it has an active hitbox while moving, has a HUGE hitbox on explosion. More damage and/or knockbock would seem ridiculous to me. I'd feel like I'm cheating at that point, or that I'm carried by my character. That's not what I want.

Number 10 & 11 - While I don't want the boomerang speed itself increased, I wouldnt mind a pinch less end lag on the initial throw of the boomerang. There are too many matchups where I am just hurting myself more than helping by throwiing one out, like against Fox or Zero Suit, or anyone with a ridiculous movement speed value.

Number 12 - Don't touch my downair boi! You wanna fight?! That's my win condition when people try to edge guard me. I land more reverse edge guard spikes than the next 10 links combined I swears it, It's documented.

Number 13 - Please tell me you're joking. Link IMO has the second best recovery in the game, shortly falling behind Snake. The reason being, bomb. As long as I am not below 50%, I can recover from anywhere on any legal stage with Link, no matter how far from the ledge I am, because I can always z drop detonate. Also, his up special is almost self protecting. It's dangerous to challenge it because every single hit after the 3rd has a chance to suck them in for a stage spike while under the ledge or you can just outright kill people with it by doing it with a b-reverse. It's also the main tool I have for reverse edge guarding with downairs. I have several videos (including twitch broadcast highlights) showcasing how dangerous it is to mess with a recovering Link.

Number 14 - Messing with fall speed would be just as devastating as messing with jump height. You remove his z drop regrab utility with his bomb and aerial rush down potential.

Number 15 - Want to see a replay of me literally nullifying wolf players stepping into my arenas because they can't laser a Link that walks up to them thanks to his shield, where I then proceed to beat them over the head with my bomb repeatedly? His shield already reliably uses this mechanic. In fact, it's such an underused option. The idea that I can just stand there and a projectile character HAS to approach because they can't spam me thanks to the shield, is a very thrilling idea as a Link main. It's also much stronger in practice than on paper. I tried it and it is true and sound.

Number 16 - I wouldn't mind the slightest nudge to air speed but I don't think it's needed either. Would be nice to be able to reliably punish characters link Yoshi out of shield, but everyone has to struggle in some matchup somewhere don't they?

Number 17 - No. Please no. It's already a sex kick on frame 4, what more can you really want? It's like the best Nair in the game.

Number 18 - I mean... why? Shouldn't it stay true to the master sword size?

Number 19 - WHY? What does he even gain out of this? Do you mean his grounded upspecial or in the air? I don't see any practical use for this mechanic being added to up special. It's already a super faster out of shield / out of parry kill option. Do we need to actually add more to it?

All in all, I strongly disagree with most of this.

If I were to buff anything at all on Link, I would reduce cooldown on the initial animation for throwing a boomerang, and make his arrows travel a very slightly further distance.

Thoughts on this ~?~ ~?~ ?
What did you even tag me in? lol
 
Last edited:

Venclaire

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
131
Location
Tennessee
EDIT: I feel like the initial post is a troll post and isn't even serious.
I'll address each of these with detail, as a read through them. I literally have like 20,000 games on Link and I'm not joking.

Number 1 - Link basically has the best Nair in the game IMO. Frame 4 sex kick that can auto cancel. This attack by itself can literally control neutral in some match ups. I'm not joking either. I can literally beat some characters just by standing in place and spamming auto cancel nairs and doing landing parry or spotdodge depending if the opponent runs at me or jumps. Also, I don't think backair is a problem as far as speed goes. I successfully use it out of shield in a great many situations. Forward air is a kill move, and I don't think it needs to be faster. Downair is also a kill move with a spike hitbox, and upair is also a kill move that MOST characters can NOT challenge, until Link lands or if they end up under him. Their ONLY safe option is to air dodge, which isn't exactly a "safe" option. By the way, If you're looking for a fast aerial on Link, just use his Nair. That thing is honestly ridiculous.

Number 2 - I'd say his grab is worth using regardless of its range. Think of it this way, you have downthrow into uptilt (except at kill percents), which after uptilt, gives you a RPS situation. Your opponent will either falling aerial, jump, or air dodge, most of which will jump. I think the issue lies more with his followups out of grab rather than the range itself. I wouldn't mind a small budge to the grabbox size but it isn't holding me back from grabbing people either.

Number 3 - What do you mean by 'faster grab'? He has an actual grab in this game, and it isn't a tether so it's already faster than it ever used to be.

Number 4 - Full dash speed I feel like is fine. You will actually cover a very slight more distance if you fox trot instead. You can do this by repeatedly clicking the stick in one direction for the initial dash, rather than holding it for a full dash. It actually is a better left to right movement option. I will agree that his initial run speed is kind of meh, but we are talking about a character that can kill and edge guard reliably. Does he really need to be faster on the feet? I feel like Link is uber broke with more speed as I tried out speed buffs in Spirits matches and people just couldn't get in but I could.

Number 5 - Why higher jumps? Do you mean his full hop, his short hop or his double jump? If you want his initial jump to be higher, congratulations, Link just lost all of his z drop bomb regrab combo utility as well as his infinite on super fast fallers and super heavies. Another reason I strongly disagree with this is because Links recovery already being absolutely amazing. It has no business being even better. He can already jump infinitely with a bomb.

Number 6 - face-palm

Number 7 & 8 - These appear to basically be the same thing. Faster bomb pulls and faster bombs. This is the one I disagree with the most. If you want to break Link, you let him pull more bombs. That bomb is by itself one of the BEST attacks in the game for SO MANY reasons, It has the Snake Grenade and Nikita treatment, where the attack itself is better than the character using it. I have absolutely 0 issues with getting bombs out safely. I am usually pulling them while the opponent is either in hit stun or while moving through the air jumping toward or away from the opponent. If you can't pull bombs reliably, it's not the bombpull speeds fault, it's your own. This has never been and never will be an issue for me or any high caliber Link player. In fact, we usually have an issue with a WHOLE DIFFERENT projectile.

Number 9 - why more damage on the bomb? It kills, it has an active hitbox while moving, has a HUGE hitbox on explosion. More damage and/or knockbock would seem ridiculous to me. I'd feel like I'm cheating at that point, or that I'm carried by my character. That's not what I want.

Number 10 & 11 - While I don't want the boomerang speed itself increased, I wouldnt mind a pinch less end lag on the initial throw of the boomerang. There are too many matchups where I am just hurting myself more than helping by throwiing one out, like against Fox or Zero Suit, or anyone with a ridiculous movement speed value.

Number 12 - Don't touch my downair boi! You wanna fight?! That's my win condition when people try to edge guard me. I land more reverse edge guard spikes than the next 10 links combined I swears it, It's documented.

Number 13 - Please tell me you're joking. Link IMO has the second best recovery in the game, shortly falling behind Snake. The reason being, bomb. As long as I am not below 50%, I can recover from anywhere on any legal stage with Link, no matter how far from the ledge I am, because I can always z drop detonate. Also, his up special is almost self protecting. It's dangerous to challenge it because every single hit after the 3rd has a chance to suck them in for a stage spike while under the ledge or you can just outright kill people with it by doing it with a b-reverse. It's also the main tool I have for reverse edge guarding with downairs. I have several videos (including twitch broadcast highlights) showcasing how dangerous it is to mess with a recovering Link.

Number 14 - Messing with fall speed would be just as devastating as messing with jump height. You remove his z drop regrab utility with his bomb and aerial rush down potential.

Number 15 - Want to see a replay of me literally nullifying wolf players stepping into my arenas because they can't laser a Link that walks up to them thanks to his shield, where I then proceed to beat them over the head with my bomb repeatedly? His shield already reliably uses this mechanic. In fact, it's such an underused option. The idea that I can just stand there and a projectile character HAS to approach because they can't spam me thanks to the shield, is a very thrilling idea as a Link main. It's also much stronger in practice than on paper. I tried it and it is true and sound.

Number 16 - I wouldn't mind the slightest nudge to air speed but I don't think it's needed either. Would be nice to be able to reliably punish characters link Yoshi out of shield, but everyone has to struggle in some matchup somewhere don't they?

Number 17 - No. Please no. It's already a sex kick on frame 4, what more can you really want? It's like the best Nair in the game.

Number 18 - I mean... why? Shouldn't it stay true to the master sword size?

Number 19 - WHY? What does he even gain out of this? Do you mean his grounded upspecial or in the air? I don't see any practical use for this mechanic being added to up special. It's already a super faster out of shield / out of parry kill option. Do we need to actually add more to it?

All in all, I strongly disagree with most of this.

If I were to buff anything at all on Link, I would reduce cooldown on the initial animation for throwing a boomerang, and make his arrows travel a very slightly further distance.



What did you even tag me in? lol
I think the person who tagged you thought this was a different game, this is Smash 64 not Ultimate lmao
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
267
Location
Baltimore
Im sorry my list was bad. I hope to improve.
It's not your fault lol. I was thinking you were talking about Link from Smash Ultimate, not Smash 64. Link from 64 needs all the buffs he can get, that character is actual dog ****
 

Sluigi123

R64/Brawl- Dev; AI Coder; Balancer
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
365
Location
Bowling Green, Ohio, USA
NNID
Sluigi123
For playing Link on Smash 64 for the past 20 years, I think I'll show up here to give my opinion about these suggestions.

Link is pretty darn close towards being a menace against everyone else in the cast, so buffing him has to be done very carefully.

1. Make his ariels faster and less laggy when not Z cancelled
All of his aerial attacks, except Forward Aerial, have 3-5 frames of startup, so they're pretty fast in their own right. If you're talking about F-Air though, which has 14 frames of startup, I'd reduce it by 2 frames; it may not sound much, but it'll help a lot in the long run.

2. Make his grab hitbox a bit bigger in order to make it more worth using
3. Make his grab a bit faster
I honestly think that the 3rd option is better than the 2nd one. All tether grabs are slow due to their range. If I were to change it, startup should be 6 frames faster, and its recovery after attempting should be reduced by 20 frames. Compared towards everyone else's grabs which are very fast, this change would still be slow, but would be used a little more often, and not as lack-luster than before.

4. Make his dashing speed faster
He really doesn't need that change, unless you're talking about his running speed, then I humbly agree. Link is tied with Ness for 3rd for fastest Dash Speed being 68; compared to C. Falcon's 80. His running speed is pretty mediocre at best actually, being tied with Jigglypuff for 3rd worse Running Speed with a whopping 42, compared to Mario's 44. I honestly believe that he should walk and run faster but not his dash. Increasing his Walk Speed to be the same as in the JPN version (0.37 -> 0.4), while his running speed should be increased from 42 to 50 (tied with Yoshi); this should help with his mobility issues while keeping the feel of him being slow due to so many tools he has on him.

5. Make his jumos much higher
This one is interesting, cause his jumps got shortened due to his gravity increasing slightly (3.2 -> 3.4), when comparing from the JPN version to the NTSC version. This is just enough so that Link can't reach to the side platforms on Dreamland when jumping sideways, cause jumping sideways would cause you to jump much shorter than neutral jumping. Reverting his gravity values back to what it was in the JPN version should help alleviate multiple problems, such as his recovery in general.

6. Make F-tilt and F-smash faster for easier K.O
His Forward Smash is very fast on startup, so I'd have to agree on it being able to KO better, so changing his KB values (not DMG%) so that it feels the same at KO-ing as in the PAL version. His Forward Strong is pretty good at KO-ing, yet is a bit sluggish in terms of speed, so reducing its startup by 3 frames should be suffice at doing its job.

7. Faster bomb pull
I agree, as he's pretty slow at pulling them out. The entire duration of pulling out a bomb is 44 frames. Reducing it down to 34 frames should be enough to pull out a bomb when he has enough space to do it, especially in Dreamland.

8. Faster bombs
Not sure what you mean by "faster bombs." Sorry.

9. More bomb damage
He did get nerfed from the JPN version to the NTSC version where the overall damage from the bomb is 2% weaker, 1% if thrown downwards. So with that said, I agree for it to be reverted.

10. Faster Boomerang
I don't think he needs this, as the boomerang can go quite a ways as it is. In the JPN version, he whips his bent bread-stick like it's baseball.

11. Decrease hurtbox to compensate for his size
His hurtbox sizes are close to how his model is like. My only guess as to why this suggestion is that his non-dominant arm that holds his shield is sticking out more than it should. Making those hurtboxes when not attacking intangible should be enough to fix that said issue.

12. Turn D-air into meteor smash
Again, I don't think he needs this. If he does though, then I'd suggest that the first 6 active frames should be a Meteor Smash.

13. Make his recovery actually viable
See my opinion on #5 of your post, as it's related to it. His Up-Special is a powerhouse, when it comes to damage and KO potential, so it'd make sense for him to have a bad recovery move to begin with. The reduction in its gravity values actually increases this moves jump height in the process, so his Up-Special doesn't need any changes.

14. Slower fall speed
See my opinion on #5 of your post, as it's related to it. The gravity change is already good enough.

15. Make his shield protect from projectiles
This one is difficult to think about, but I'm just gonna bring it down to just my opinion towards your 11th suggestion. Other than that, use your attacks or projectiles to destroy your opponents' projectiles, and you should do just fine.

16. Make his air speed faster
See my opinion on #5 of your post, as it's related to it. The gravity change is already good enough.

17. Give nair a longer lasting hitbox/animation
Neutral Aerial Attack's hitboxes lasts on frames 4 - 29 throughout its 39 frame duration, so I don't think he needs this change.

18. Make his sword longer
His sword got 5% shorter, and made his sword look like plastic, when transferring from the JPN version to the NTSC version. And I agree, his sword's length should be reverted.

19. Make his up-b meteor smash
I need an explanation about this change, cause I'm not seeing anything good from it

20. Idk I don't have one for 20
My suggestive ideas for #20 is to increase his weight to be the same as in the PAL version: 0.96 -> 0.9, or 108 -> 122; as this will help his endurance very heavily, including his recovery even more as well. Changing his weight isn't gonna affect him as much as there are TOD combos everywhere in this game.
The other idea is shorten his Jump-Squat frames by 2, as he has the slowest startup when jumping in the game, reducing it to be even with Yoshi should be enough to help with his juggling capabilities.

Overall, my opinion is fairly close towards this post, but I honestly think that, even though he's 11th on the tier list, Link isn't that far behind actually. He mostly needs fixes in many areas while buffing a few things in the process, and he should be good as new.
 
Last edited:

YoshiNuub

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
7
For playing Link on Smash 64 for the past 20 years, I think I'll show up here to give my opinion about these suggestions.

Link is pretty darn close towards being a menace against everyone else in the cast, so buffing him has to be done very carefully.


All of his aerial attacks, except Forward Aerial, have 3-5 frames of startup, so they're pretty fast in their own right. If you're talking about F-Air though, which has 14 frames of startup, I'd reduce it by 2 frames; it may not sound much, but it'll help a lot in the long run.


I honestly think that the 3rd option is better than the 2nd one. All tether grabs are slow due to their range. If I were to change it, startup should be 6 frames faster, and its recovery after attempting should be reduced by 20 frames. Compared towards everyone else's grabs which are very fast, this change would still be slow, but would be used a little more often, and not as lack-luster than before.


He really doesn't need that change, unless you're talking about his running speed, then I humbly agree. Link is tied with Ness for 3rd for fastest Dash Speed being 68; compared to C. Falcon's 80. His running speed is pretty mediocre at best actually, being tied with Jigglypuff for 3rd worse Running Speed with a whopping 42, compared to Mario's 44. I honestly believe that he should walk and run faster but not his dash. Increasing his Walk Speed to be the same as in the JPN version (0.37 -> 0.4), while his running speed should be increased from 42 to 50 (tied with Yoshi); this should help with his mobility issues while keeping the feel of him being slow due to so many tools he has on him.


This one is interesting, cause his jumps got shortened due to his gravity increasing slightly (3.2 -> 3.4), when comparing from the JPN version to the NTSC version. This is just enough so that Link can't reach to the side platforms on Dreamland when jumping sideways, cause jumping sideways would cause you to jump much shorter than neutral jumping. Reverting his gravity values back to what it was in the JPN version should help alleviate multiple problems, such as his recovery in general.


His Forward Smash is very fast on startup, so I'd have to agree on it being able to KO better, so changing his KB values (not DMG%) so that it feels the same at KO-ing as in the PAL version. His Forward Strong is pretty good at KO-ing, yet is a bit sluggish in terms of speed, so reducing its startup by 3 frames should be suffice at doing its job.


I agree, as he's pretty slow at pulling them out. The entire duration of pulling out a bomb is 44 frames. Reducing it down to 34 frames should be enough to pull out a bomb when he has enough space to do it, especially in Dreamland.


Not sure what you mean by "faster bombs." Sorry.


He did get nerfed from the JPN version to the NTSC version where the overall damage from the bomb is 2% weaker, 1% if thrown downwards. So with that said, I agree for it to be reverted.


I don't think he needs this, as the boomerang can go quite a ways as it is. In the JPN version, he whips his bent bread-stick like it's baseball.


His hurtbox sizes are close to how his model is like. My only guess as to why this suggestion is that his non-dominant arm that holds his shield is sticking out more than it should. Making those hurtboxes when not attacking intangible should be enough to fix that said issue.


Again, I don't think he needs this. If he does though, then I'd suggest that the first 6 active frames should be a Meteor Smash.


See my opinion on #5 of your post, as it's related to it. His Up-Special is a powerhouse, when it comes to damage and KO potential, so it'd make sense for him to have a bad recovery move to begin with. The reduction in its gravity values actually increases this moves jump height in the process, so his Up-Special doesn't need any changes.


See my opinion on #5 of your post, as it's related to it. The gravity change is already good enough.


This one is difficult to think about, but I'm just gonna bring it down to just my opinion towards your 11th suggestion. Other than that, use your attacks or projectiles to destroy your opponents' projectiles, and you should do just fine.


See my opinion on #5 of your post, as it's related to it. The gravity change is already good enough.


Neutral Aerial Attack's hitboxes lasts on frames 4 - 29 throughout its 39 frame duration, so I don't think he needs this change.


His sword got 5% shorter, and made his sword look like plastic, when transferring from the JPN version to the NTSC version. And I agree, his sword's length should be reverted.


I need an explanation about this change, cause I'm not seeing anything good from it


My suggestive ideas for #20 is to increase his weight to be the same as in the PAL version: 0.96 -> 0.9, or 108 -> 122; as this will help his endurance very heavily, including his recovery even more as well. Changing his weight isn't gonna affect him as much as there are TOD combos everywhere in this game.
The other idea is shorten his Jump-Squat frames by 2, as he has the slowest startup when jumping in the game, reducing it to be even with Yoshi should be enough to help with his juggling capabilities.

Overall, my opinion is fairly close towards this post, but I honestly think that, even though he's 11th on the tier list, Link isn't that far behind actually. He mostly needs fixes in many areas while buffing a few things in the process, and he should be good as new.
My idea was to make him OP. I didn't make that very clear lol
 

XX-Saber Lincoln

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 25, 2019
Messages
3
Here's how I would personally buff Link (without making him OP):
1) First and foremost, an increase in both horizontal and vertical motions on his recovery
2) Less start-up lag on bombs
3) Making his Hylian shield functional in blocking projectiles from the front
4) Higher Boomerang damage
 
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