If Bizarro Flame and kage didn't use G-Dorf, would they be gods?

[Shadow Light Master]

I recently saw this match where Bizarro Flame managed to take a game against Armada's Fox! The way people talk about tiers and "viability," I had believed that this was literally impossible. But then it happened... Ganondorf beating one of the best Foxes in the game. Granted, he didn't win the set, but it still made me consider maining Ganondorf over Sheik after all.

I even heard that kage has taken a set off Mango with G-Dorf. That's absolutely inspirational. I know that kind of performance is basically impossible to do consistently, but do you think that this means that viability isn't as set in stone as people say, or that maybe G-Dorf is better than people think?

Here is the match of Bizz VS Armada. I haven't seen the kage VS Mango one. This just made me wonder if they switched mains, if they would be gods. Not that I want them to.

(Game 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTt8hSfYWfc

 

[AirFair]

Didn't Kage beat Mango a long time ago? like during the earlier ROMs?

I don't know if they would be gods, but maybe they would be a lot better rankwise. They would have to learn whole new characters. I'm sure they could do it, but assuming they don't play any other characters in tournament, it would take awhile.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Didn't Kage beat Mango a long time ago? like during the earlier ROMs?

I don't know if they would be gods, but maybe they would be a lot better rankwise. They would have to learn whole new characters. I'm sure they could do it, but assuming they don't play any other characters in tournament, it would take awhile.

Yeah, I just saw the match. It was years ago. So it's not as impressive as Bizz beating Armada's Fox in 2015.

 

[Xyzz]

Kage also plays CF... his Ganondorf is vastly superior. Some people just click with some character

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

lmao, no. Not even close.

Kage lives in the same city as I do (Montreal) and I can tell you that he's not even the #1 player in the quebec region.

Bam & Vwins are both way better. Especially Vwins... and he barely plays anymore. He's just ridiculously good.

We have some really talented smash players in Canada... but nowhere near the level of top American & Swedish players... not even close.

Also, Bizzaro flame... as much as I love him.. has got to be THE most overrated smasher in terms of potential. He's swaggy, and he's a scrub destroyer... but he's never going to win a major at his current level, especially with Ganon. But hey, I admire him for sticking with his main.

 

[-ACE-]

lmao, no. Not even close.

Kage lives in the same city as I do (Montreal) and I can tell you that he's not even the #1 player in the quebec region.

Bam & Vwins are both way better. Especially Vwins... and he barely plays anymore. He's just ridiculously good.

We have some really talented smash players in Canada... but nowhere near the level of top American & Swedish players... not even close.

Also, Bizzaro flame... as much as I love him.. has got to be THE most overrated smasher in terms of potential. He's swaggy, and he's a scrub destroyer... but he's never going to win a major at his current level, especially with Ganon. But hey, I admire him for sticking with his main.

Agreed. +1

 

[Deleted member]

Probably not. They are both extremely skilled with their character because they have 0000's of hours on that character and can play them to extremely high levels. Sure they might do better with a higher tier but I don't think their skill level is ghigh enough to be G0D L1K3.

P.S. Bizz is my favourite smasher because Stylezzzz

 

[Shadow Light Master]

So none of you guys believe that if they invested all their time in G-Dorf into a higher tier character, that they might perform better? Why not? They've taken games off gods... I mean, I know it's possible that they wouldn't do any better, but you guys are all definitively saying no. >_>

 

[-ACE-]

Dude they don't have a pocket fox that can go toe to toe with the gods. They play Ganon for a reason.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

So none of you guys believe that if they invested all their time in G-Dorf into a higher tier character, that they might perform better? Why not? They've taken games off gods... I mean, I know it's possible that they wouldn't do any better, but you guys are all definitively saying no. >_>

Well the thing is, saying what if Kage played 100000 hours of fox is something we simply don't know what the result would be. Maybe he would be super legit. Maybe he'd wreck his hands halfway. Maybe he wouldn't like fox and switch to pichu. These are all just as likely scenarios. It has too many possibilties for anyone to seriously consider it. so people go off his current skillset if he were to play as fox with his current skillset, no he wouldn't be a god level player. There are things Kage lacks that fox needs (same goes for other top tiers.

 

[Sieghart]

So none of you guys believe that if they invested all their time in G-Dorf into a higher tier character, that they might perform better? Why not? They've taken games off gods... I mean, I know it's possible that they wouldn't do any better, but you guys are all definitively saying no. >_>

People are definitively saying no because neither Bizz nor Kage are god level players, Ganon or no. Yeah they can take games as Ganon and body scrubs well enough to at least make it near good top tier mains but that's more a case of them being good at Ganon rather than at the game. Not saying they aren't good at the game, but still. If you'd asked this about say, Axe, we might have something to talk about. His Falco is respectable enough to humor the idea and watching him you can tell he's just really good at the game.

 

[dfrogman]

eikelmann came close to taking a game off armadas peach at evo too
i don't even think it's legit to call ganon a crutch anymore, those 3 (kage, eikelmann, bizz) have more than proven he's viable at this point, at least as part of that "underdeveloped up and coming tier" of pika, yoshi, samus, ics, and falcon if you dont already consider any of those "top tier"
mango has explained the proper mindset with regards to great players with "bad/goofy/underdeveloped" characters in commentary before. part of what makes the success of players like axe, amsa, plup, hugs, kage, etc is their ability to use their opponents' lack of knowledge of their character to their advantage. playing a character like fox or falco would completely cut this part of their game off, so you can't say that these players would automatically be destroying major tournaments if they started playing fox as if they had just taken off their rock lee ankle weights. what's closer to the truth is that you would see a "different take" on whatever character they chose to play than what you're used to seeing, which is why everyone loves seeing axe's falco and mango's marth every now and then
20XX+7

 

[Modesty]

If Axe put as much time into fox as he did his pikachu, maybe he'd be a god imo. It's kinda pointless to worry about though, because there are a million other variables that can't really be factored.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

If Axe put as much time into fox as he did his pikachu, maybe he'd be a god imo. It's kinda pointless to worry about though, because there are a million other variables that can't really be factored.

I think Axe just kind of clicks with Pikachu though. His falco is amazing but I wouldn't say it's better than his pika.

Point being that I don't think even with fox he would place as high as he currently is placing. Although he is a master gimp killer so I wonder what he could do with shiek...

 

[-ACE-]

Eikelmann HAS taken a game off Armada's peach. Whatisfear, an old wc Ganon, has done so also.

One day a Ganon will have kage's basics and spacing, linguini's edgeguarding and instinctual option coverage, n0ne's ability to create opportunities, spider_sense's tech skill, tipman's innovation, and Eikelmann's drive and matchup tactics. Such a person simply hasn't picked up Ganon yet.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

And of course, Bizzarro Flame's STYLE

 

[Modesty]

I think Axe just kind of clicks with Pikachu though. His falco is amazing but I wouldn't say it's better than his pika.

Point being that I don't think even with fox he would place as high as he currently is placing. Although he is a master gimp killer so I wonder what he could do with shiek...

I don't mean if he dropped pika and picked up fox, more like if he had started with fox.

 

[NGUY (guitarstage)]

Thats their personality on a char literally hahaha

 

[golden009]

No, no, no, god no. I see the ganon players being hyped up over and over, and the fact is, Kage and Bizzaro are overrated, because everyone loves to watch Ganon, and they are fun to watch. However, in no way does fun to watch mean great. Bizzaro always tends to feel like style without substance to me, and Kage is past his prime by now. If you're gonna try to "hype up" a player that uses mid tiers, look at, say, Plup, or AmSa, or Eddy Mexico. Don't try to make excuses for the Ganons just because you're a fanboy.

 

[-ACE-]

Kage overrated? Lol no. More like slept on.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Kage overrated? Lol no. More like slept on.

Seriously. I love Bizarro Flame, but it's weird that people know him, and not the Ganon who bodied him, Kage.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Seriously. I love Bizarro Flame, but it's weird that people know him, and not the Ganon who bodied him, Kage.

It's because a lot of melee fans today are new people that only took an interest after the smash documentary. They know nothing about the actual game and just cling to whatever is on the front page of reddit (where Bizarro commonly appears) as the best players.

Bizarro is DEFINITELY overrated, although I do love his style. Was fun to watch him eat his words vs Kage at Salty Suite.. Bizarro is the fraud, not Kage.

 

[-ACE-]

It's important to note that it's not bizz's fault that he's overhyped, and I think calling him a fraud is a little harsh. He's an awesome dude. Just a great Ganon main doing his thing and having fun.

People see things at face value and rarely read the fine print. How many people were aware that Eikelmann eviscerated bizz in a MM shortly after the infamous salty suite set were he played like ass? Lol. I admire bizz's ability to feed off the crowd. Ian was a nervous wreck.

The ditto isn't as simple as it looks. I don't want to sound biased (lol) but the Florida Ganons have a tight grip on that matchup. I was mad rusty at mlg anaheim last year when I met bizz. We played 10 matches and went dead even (we both landed a utilt, and he did a forward-facing tipman uair and dj wizkick spiked me... so sick). He once said "how are you so good at Ganon dittos?" Lol. His kills were super swaggy though and we had so much fun. Love that guy.

Saw him at Evo and I asked him if he'd have time for friendlies at any point. He said he wasn't sure if he'd have time due to having to study for the Bar, but liked my suggestion that he study in 3 hour intervals interrupted by 1 hour melee breaks. He laughed hysterically when I assured him that I would allow him to quit playing and study, even if I was 1 frame away from utilt'ing him... LMAO. We hugged it out but never had a chance to play :<

Kage in the other hand has extremely strong basics and spacing, and is very consistent. No unnecessary moves or maneuvers. Very strong in the ditto.

Losing a ditto really isn't exposing anything. You can lose one exchange and lose a stock. Evo also wasn't Bizz's best tournament by any means, and I hope it serves to motivate him more once he has time to practice again.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It's important to note that it's not bizz's fault that he's overhyped, and I think calling him a fraud is a little harsh.

The ONLY reasons I call him a fraud is because he spent the last two years accusing Kage of being a "damn fraud" So honnestly I'm still a bit salty over that XD So to me it's like "WHOS THE FRAUD NOW BIZZ!?!?!?"

I also love Bizzaro Flame. My 2nd fave Ganon after Kage.

 

[Plunder]

Yea but you have to treat Bizzaro like a WWE character; he's always on, always showboating and getting people riled up in a playful way. That why we love him. You can't take anything he says seriously since he's just trying to make Melee more hype and entertaining for us.

On the rare occasion when Bizz gets serious he's pretty deadly, but he has way too much fun styling and trolling 99% of the time.

 

[-ACE-]

Reasonable trash talk is good for melee. Hype=good. Muhammad Ali ****.

 

[flacofaloc]

Seriously. I love Bizarro Flame, but it's weird that people know him, and not the Ganon who bodied him, Kage.

trust me, plenty of people are aware of Kage. Kage just doesn't have the exposure that Bizz has currently.

 

[-ACE-]

In case the salty suite left anyone hanging, here's a nasty ditto from versus gaming center in Ft Lauderdale, FL from Sunday night.

Linguini, possibly the greatest Ganon player ever, vs Thomas Tipman, the undisputed pioneer of the Ganon metagame. Both experienced in the matchup (10 years).

http://youtu.be/6FuGPHzBOwY

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

In case the salty suite left anyone hanging, here's a nasty ditto from versus Ganon center in Ft Lauderdale, FL from Sunday night.

Linguini, possibly the greatest Ganon player ever, vs Thomas Tipman, the undisputed pioneer of the Ganon metagame. Both experienced in the matchup (10 years).

http://youtu.be/6FuGPHzBOwY

Sweet man thanks for the link. Ganon dittos HYPE!

 

[Plunder]

In case the salty suite left anyone hanging, here's a nasty ditto from versus Ganon center in Ft Lauderdale, FL from Sunday night.

Linguini, possibly the greatest Ganon player ever, vs Thomas Tipman, the undisputed pioneer of the Ganon metagame. Both experienced in the matchup (10 years).

http://youtu.be/6FuGPHzBOwY

Nice, definitely a historical Melee battle.

The only dittos I enjoy are Falcon, Ganon, Falco, Bowser, DK and the Links

Jigglypuff and Peach dittos make me want to jump off a cliff while playing Brawl.