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Idea to add HYPE! to our tournaments

Dabuz

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With EVO 2011 going down, and our community realizing it needs to step our game up and attract more popularity, there is one issue that should be addressed: HYPE!


HYPE! is not just seeing the underdog have a shot to beat established pros, but its also seeing crazy comebacks, and having exciting and fast matches. HYPE! is what makes an older game survive when there is less to learn about it. HYPE! is the reason traditional fighters such as blazblue, mortal kombat, street fighter, ect. get EVO. Brawl doesn't have enough HYPE! to guarantee it will be an interesting EVO game.


What i want to propose, for the purpose of raising HYPE! is reducing stocks to 2, and making every set best 3/5, and 4/7 for GFs.


The first reasoning behind this is that the longer a match in a fighting game goes, the less interesting it, from a spectators point of view, 4 minutes of diddy vs. snake on SV will get old by the third minute, and then we run into the problem of the same situation, on a different stage, again, and maybe even a third time. Within 12 minutes, the amount of variety will be very minimal, and that is a turn off to many spectators, even in our HYPE! matches, that can end up being a problem. By reducing matches down to two stocks, it cuts a match time by 1/3 in theory, which will keep sets more fresh and exciting for spectators. The point is, 2 stocks caters to the shorter attention spans of spectators, and stage variety makes a match more interesting.

Heck, this also reduces the snore-fest brawl can be when one player has pretty much guaranteed taking a match, but because there is still another stock or more to go, spectators have to endure watching another couple minutes of a match with a predictable outcome. Most matches are determined by the first person to take a second stock anyway, i don't remember who first made this observation, but, looking mid, high, and top level matches, most of the time, up to 90% of the time, the player who is the first to take off a second stock ends up winning the match, making the third stock pretty pointless. Two stocks allow room for comebacks and not being able to say for sure who will win a match is a driving force behind HYPE!


The second reason bringing brawl down to 2 stocks is that, from a player's point of view, it promotes being risky, going hard for certain kills, or large combos, and being a crowd pleaser. With less stocks, players need to put in less investment for each match, meaning taking a risk that potentially can cost a stock, is less of a price because with a higher quantity of shorter matches, a player knows they won't be completely screwing themselves over if they take the risk, unlike the current system that results in each of those stocks meaning a lot more in the long run. This promotes ballsy, aggressive, and HYPE! high risk-high reward moments, while not punishing players who prefer to be safe and camp it out whilst taking no big risks. The potential for increasing the excitement and gaining interest in the community will skyrocket, and thats what the community needs



EVO is eye opening in how matches are exciting because they are fast and anything can happen. Brawl can be like that without changing the fundamentals of our ruleset. Brawl has a lot of potential, what we need to understand is, brawl is not boring itself (with the exception of long lasting stalling tactics, AKA m2k style), what is boring is the length of which our matches last. To be taken as a HYPE! game, Brawl needs to be exciting and hard to predict, and our players need to have incentive to take risks and causing moments which can make spectators goes *Gasp*! The proposal of 2 stocks is an idea which i support for the sake of helping this community.


I want everyone who reads this to seriously consider the idea of 2-stocks in an attempt to make brawl a more HYPE! game.




Edit: Gifts pointed out the need to change the time to accommodate for less stocks. So i recommend a 6 minute time. Also, cut the LGL by 1/5th. (MK now has a LGL of 28, the rest of the cast has a LGL limit of 42)



Edit:

Something i want to address about set counts. Falln brought this up on AIB, we don't want to gimp the length of HYPE! matches, such as Trela vs. Esam, but after reading through comments, many people would prefer to stay Bo3, which does help to keep matches fresh. In order to get the best of both worlds, i was thinking that, going off the assumption of a 64 person bracket, every match up to winner's quarters and loser's semis is 2/3. Every match up to all the Finals would be 3/5. Then all the finals would be 4/7. This gets HYPE! matches more time, whilst still keeping a higher level of hype and not gimping the playing time.


For Brackets size 32 and less, we stick to 2/3 until the finals, which all get 3/5

Opinions?



Questions? Comments? Opinions? Please post them



TL;DR version: Reducing matches 2 stocks, 6 minutes will increase the excitement of brawl matches, which caters to spectators who are the driving force behind a game picking up enough interest to be put on EVO.



Link to AIB blog about this: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=119918
 
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I like the idea of 2 stocks, I really really do, but Jack Kieser has a very good point. :ohwell:
 

M@v

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Wouldn't this inadvertently nerf Lucario? Then it again it could theoretically buff him too....ugh 3 years later and his aura mechanics still confuse me a little.
 
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TBH in my opinion if you wanted to add hype to a match trying ether 3 or 2 minute time matches would be the best thing to do instead of stock matches. That way the matches aren't incredibly long.
 

Dabuz

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@budge player cadter: i am theory crafting 2 stock over 1 stock because, adjusting to 2 stock is hard enough as it is, and if 1 stock were implemented, the stage list would need to be re-rexpanded to cover the amount of matches.

@MAV: Not really, we aren't changing kickback, %, ect. All we change is the amount of stocks, for lucario to gain an extra buff because of 3 stocks, the lucario would have to be 1 stocks to his opponents 3 stocks =x

@kid craft 24: i would call for lowering each match to 5 or 6 minutes, but 2/3 minutes would only work with 1 stock. Your suggestion either forcibly changes the way people plays, or leads to extra time-outs, neither of which is what we want.
 
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Well i was just suggesting just doing regular timed matches instead of stock matches. I'm sure there's a way we'd be able to make it work. i'd personally be willing to host tourneys ether offline or online to do some testing on it. Only reason i'm suggesting this is it would force players to not play so defensively(which lowers the hype of match as no one wants to see someone camp for 2 minutes) and tourneys would run so much faster.
 

Dabuz

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Sorry, but no, your wrong about that. If matches are time, then all a player has to do is get the first kill, then run away for the next minute, knowing their primary win objective is to time someone out. It would be interesting, but competitively, the main goal being to time land 1 kill and time out your opponent out, is not good.
 

Zankoku

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The idea behind timed stock matches is to give both the opportunity of winning by reaching a certain number of KOs as well as winning by holding an advantage over time. A time match strictly only rewards one of those things, as attempting to get as many KOs as possible over a time period is exactly as rewarding as getting one more KO than the opponent over a time period.
 

Ussi

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I'll support a try at a 2 stock metagame.

Though we could just do 1 stock games and we'll basically be similar to other fighting games cause 1 stock can equal 1 lifebar. So i'm fine with trying either.

If anything, this will promote using more stages.

Bo5 and Bo7 (finals) for using 1 or 2 stocks.
 

Dabuz

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I feel that, if we were to do 1 stock matches, the entire stage system would have to be massively revamped, that is the only flaw of 1 stock matches IMO.

To anyone who is going to try out two stock matches, thanks for your support
 

Gifts

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I feel that, if we were to do 1 stock matches, the entire stage system would have to be massively revamped, that is the only flaw of 1 stock matches IMO.

To anyone who is going to try out two stock matches, thanks for your support
This is very interesting. Maybe at he next tournament i host on the 27th ill make a 2 stock side event to see how it plays out.

What would you reccomendfor a time setting in these 2 stock mathes? You should probably add that to the tl;dr.
:phone:
 

Supreme Dirt

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I would support two stock matches over one stock.

That way at least the stock based part of Lucario's aura mechanic comes into play a little bit.
 

Dabuz

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This is very interesting. Maybe at he next tournament i host on the 27th ill make a 2 stock side event to see how it plays out.

What would you reccomendfor a time setting in these 2 stock mathes? You should probably add that to the tl;dr.
:phone:
Since the purpose of this is largely to make the game more interesting, I say 6 minutes, ironically, more time=less time outs because stalling for that extra minute is harder, i can easily see matches going to time with 5 minute 2 stocks. BTW, another side note, reduce the regular LGL to 42 and MK's LGL to 28 (4/5ths of time, 4/5ths of LGL)


Also, please do so, i want this concept to pick up steam.
 

Espy Rose

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Wouldn't this inadvertently nerf Lucario? Then it again it could theoretically buff him too....ugh 3 years later and his aura mechanics still confuse me a little.
I'm not entirely sure, but wouldn't two stocks only nerf his ability to hit that maximum aura earlier, or something?

But to say two stocks would alter him as any type of argument would be silly, since three stocks does that as well.
 

Ussi

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Lucario's stock aura buffs requires him to be behind in stocks no? Not a position anyone wants to be in.

If anything, it helps Lucario because his stock aura nerf is also less apparent
 

san.

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I think it would add hype, but it's entirely dependent on whether the community will accept it, not really how good it is.
 

Ussi

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If you think about it, it'll help so much with mental endurance as you aren't in a tense mind for 8 minutes and 3
stocks, its now minutes and 2 stocks.

people should grab the concept 1 stock = 1 lifebar in other games.

Just because we've been doing it since 08, doesn't mean its right.

We've had attempts at changing/testing 2 stocks before, but most argued why change. People will play the game regardless of the stock count.

:phone:
 

Supreme Dirt

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Espy, stock aura buff and percent aura buff are independent of each other.
Max aura is 2 stocks behind, 180%.
Minimum Aura is 2 stocks ahead, 0%.

Found the information.

Max aura is a 1.33 x (stock boost) 1.4 x (% boost) boost to damage (note that knockback scales with damage, so it thus increases the knockback).
That's about 1.9x power

Minimum Aura is a 6/7 x (stock boost) 0.7 x (% boost) boost to damage.
That's a multiplier of exactly 0.6x power.

With two stocks only, minimum aura becomes 8/9 x 0.7, or around 0.62x the strength, while maximum aura becomes 8/7 x 1.4, or exactly 1.6.

tl;dr, it's more of a nerf than a buff, but it doesn't really matter too much.
 

hadesblade

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BTW, another side note, reduce the regular LGL to 42 and MK's LGL to 28 (4/5ths of time, 4/5ths of LGL)


Also, please do so, i want this concept to pick up steam.
6 minutes instead of 8 is 3/4ths of the time, not 4/5ths.
 

Jack Kieser

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Well, I would also like to support 2 stock, 6 minute Bo5 matches for testing. Let's get some testing done.
 
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Wouldn't this inadvertently nerf Lucario? Then it again it could theoretically buff him too....ugh 3 years later and his aura mechanics still confuse me a little.
Bad argument; 3 stocks is what we have right now but if we had 2 stocks and someone suggested 3, we would be up in arms about buffing lucario.

I feel that, if we were to do 1 stock matches, the entire stage system would have to be massively revamped, that is the only flaw of 1 stock matches IMO.

To anyone who is going to try out two stock matches, thanks for your support
I think 1 stock, 3-4 minutes takes this to its logical extreme and I would seriously support that logical extreme because I think it would be legit.

Also, why would we need to reset the stage system? If anything, this makes our current system work better. Assuming that Brinstar and RC are both auto-win for MK (I don't believe this, just assuming), in the unity ruleset you go from losing 1/3rd to 1/2 of the set automatically (and absolutely needing to win game one) to losing far, far less. In fact, it would allow for even more extreme counterpicks, given the application of the following definition of Dave's Stupid Rule:
You cannot counterpick a stage you have won on earlier in the set unless the opponent agrees to it
Would probably work pretty well, no?
 

Steam

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two stocks doesn't affect lucario at all. he's just never able to be at true max or min aura because he can't be winning or losing by two stocks. but really... even with 3 stocks if he was ever at true max or min aura the match would already be decided.

also the total aura multiplier has to be between .7 and 1.8... so often times being up or down two stocks wouldn't mean much

but this would seriously **** lucario in dubz... at least for teams running anubis or a less extreme variant. but since that's what he's best for it would really hurt his doubles viability
 

CT Chia

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I'm starting to think that 2 stocks might be better, but not increasing it to Bo5. That would make it last even longer than it is now lol
 

Jack Kieser

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Ignoring Jebus. It solves all problems of nonsensical posting.

@Chibo: The current 8 minute Bo3 puts us at a max set time of 24 minutes + strike time. 2 stock, 5 minute Bo5 would put us at 25 minutes + strike time (< 3 m per stock, as it is now), while 2 stock, 6 minutes would put us at 30 minutes + strike time (= 3 m per stock, as some people argue it should be). The time differential is negligable, assuming that less than 5% of matches go to time (as is statistical precedent).
 

vVv Rapture

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I support 2 stocks, best of 3. Pretty similar to the Street Fighter standard right now.

Or we could do 1 stock, 3-4 minutes, Best of 7? That's actually the closest to SF, since a regular SF best-of-3 requires someone to knockout their opponent 4 times.

So actually I'm more supportive of 1 stock, 3-4 minutes, Best of 7.
 

Jack Kieser

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The only reason I can think of off the top of my head that 1-stock would be iffy is because of low-% gimps. In a 1 stock match, a low-% gimp is the end. In a 2 stock match, at least the opponent has a change to gimp the opponent back and make a small comeback. So, 1 stock Bo7 is actually closer to, say, Tekken (early ring outs could be considered analogous to low-% gimps).
 

vVv Rapture

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The only reason I can think of off the top of my head that 1-stock would be iffy is because of low-% gimps. In a 1 stock match, a low-% gimp is the end. In a 2 stock match, at least the opponent has a change to gimp the opponent back and make a small comeback. So, 1 stock Bo7 is actually closer to, say, Tekken (early ring outs could be considered analogous to low-% gimps).
I just think low % gimps are something that's unique to Smash and something we'd have to live with. I honestly don't think it would hurt if people developed better ways of not getting gimped, and I don't mind rewarding people who are successful with getting a low % gimp, either.
 

Jack Kieser

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Well, that's why I said "iffy" and not "wrong", lol. That's what testing could be for, though: play a whole bunch of test matches where MK is doing everything he can to chain chars to the edge and then dair gimp at < 50%.
 

Ussi

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I'm gonna say i support 1 stock 3-4 minutes over 2 stocks 6 minutes with a Bo5/7

Brawl will start looking like other traditional fighters, and it'll be easier to make a come back. It'll help with the mentally (not that we're trying to make it look like other fighters, melee is completely fine with 4 stocks and is still fun to watch)

:phone:
 

SaveMeJebus

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and makes wario lower mid tier. and forces people to approach snake/diddy and other ground based characters even when they're winning.
lowering the stocks and timer is going going to cause more matches to go to time. This rule only punishes players for using the timer to get their win. think about it. would Wario be as good as he is without the timer?
 

Dabuz

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Something i want to address about set counts. Falln brought this up on AIB, we don't want to gimp the length of HYPE! matches, such as Trela vs. Esam, but after reading throguh comments, many people would prefer to stay Bo3, which does help to keep matches fresh. In order to get the best of both worlds, i was thinking that, going off the assumption of a 64 person bracket, every match up to winner's quarters and loser's semis is 2/3. Every match up to all the Finals would be 3/5. Then all the finals would be 4/7. This gets HYPE! matches more time, whilst still keeping a higher level of hype and not gimping the playing time.

For all brackets size 32 and less, we stick to all matches being 2/3 until the finals, which all get 3/5

Opinions?
 

Steam

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lowering the stocks and timer is going going to cause more matches to go to time. This rule only punishes players for using the timer to get their win. think about it. would Wario be as good as he is without the timer?
actually this punishes players for jumping since they are forced to approach when they are in the air more.

and MK is pretty much the only character that just flat out times people out. all other characters that run the timer will usually win off of punishing the aggro opponent.
 
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