Iceclimbers Chaingrab Tips

[Demna]

Iceclimbers Chaingrab Tips by Demna​

​

*NOTE: THIS IS FOR THOSE WHO KNOW THE BASICS OF THE CHAINGRAB BUT HAVE TROUBLE CHAINGRABING SPECIFIC CHARACTER.

*NOTE: These tips aren't for everyone. I'm offering my opinion on different chaingrabs that work easily on specific character.

*NOTE: To understand this further more, you should know the weight criteria of every charater.
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight#SSBB_Weight_Ranking - this should help you out.

Ideal Chaingrab:- The chaingrab that you mostly want to master is D-throw to D-throw (double down throw). Because unlike the B-throw, it is tripless. And unlike the F-throw, D-throw offers a better IASA frames. After you reach the end of the stage, make sure you have Nana holding the enemy so you can use Nana to B-Throw to Popo. You need to make a soft turn with Popo, where you don't have to tap the analog stick, you can move it slightly to make this work, and regrab with Popo. This help reverse the direction of the chaingrab without the appearance of the chances of tripping and to continue your chain grab in the opposite direction. Perfecting this Chaingrab means that you perfected the Ideal Chaingrab that can't be mashed out of.

The easiest characters to perform the double D-throw on are:



If the double down throw isn't your style, you can always use a double F-throw which isnt as good, but works efficiently.

However, if you find this Chaingrab hard to master and want alternative chaingrabs to learn here's a few that I recommend. Although I highly recommend getting used to the double D-throw ASAP.

This is how I'd chaingrab different characters If I can't learn the ideal chaingrab:
Down-Throw to Forward-Throw:-






- or hobbled



Back-Throw to Forward-Throw:-











The easiest way to achieve this chain grab is by pressing Back+Z together to regrab with Nana. Do not press Z before you press Back even by a less than half a second because it will allow Nana to grab before the opponent is thrown.

Back-Throw to Forward-Throw:-

*NOTE: this is not as the BT to FT listed above. The characters that will be included are heavier than the characters above. Once you've gotten a grab on your opponent, Press back on the analog stick and then Immediately press Z. Do not press them together, make sure to press back before you press Z.





- Sopo



*NOTE: If you find this mechanic difficult, you can Down-Throw to Forward-Through. However, you need to regrab your Down-Throw in a faster manner since the characters are lighter than the character listed below the "Down-Throw to Forward-Throw" criteria.

Back-Throw to Down-Throw:


some people might prefer this over the BT to FT, but it works best against Metaknight since it's harder to regrab him from Nana's Forward Throw.


Hobbling:-

Hobbling is basically footstooling an opponent after a BackThrow from Popo and hitting the opponent with an icecube (B), the opponent will get up in his place without taking any action. You can regrab your opponent and repeat the process.

(Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxNXaNU4JTQ Time - 12:03 to 12:35)

Try not to start hobbling until you get the opponent to mid percentages.







- Or Down-Throw to Forward-throw




* EXTREMELY IMPORTANT: Please note that it takes longer for Popo to regrab than Nana. Popo's grab is 5 frames longer than Nana (1/12 of a second delay) . For example, let's say it takes Nana 1.1 seconds to regrab Lucario off of Popo's Down-Throw, then Popo will take 1.183 seconds to regrab Lucario off of Nana's Down-Throw. This also includes Forward-Throws and Back-Throws, Nana always regrabs faster than Popo does. This information has helped me a lot in understanding chaingrabs and in creating complex chaingrabs once I got the basics down.



Tell me what your opinion is on your easier version of chaingrabbing and we could discuss about it.
Reading these tips alone won't help, you need to go and practice as much as possible, practice makes perfect.

Good luck!

Hope it helped

 

[DeLux]

oh my god it's like it's 2009 all over again >_>

This guide is horribly outdated and at times incorrect

Outdated because you advocate non-tripless options and mashable options when there are tripless and unmashable options that exist. Why anyone would want to make a guide of inferior options is beyond me.

Incorrect because wobbling is an exploit from MELEE. You're talking about hobbling I assume
You also state the difference between grabbing times of climbers is .3 seconds (by subtracting 1.4 from 1.1 seconds you game). The frame delay is 5 frames which is 1/12th of a second or in other words almost 4x shorter than what you're saying.

 

[Demna]

oh my god it's like it's 2009 all over again >_>

This guide is horribly outdated and at times incorrect

Outdated because you advocate non-tripless options and mashable options when there are tripless and unmashable options that exist. Why anyone would want to make a guide of inferior options is beyond me.

Incorrect because wobbling is an exploit from MELEE. You're talking about hobbling I assume
You also state the difference between grabbing times of climbers is .3 seconds (by subtracting 1.4 from 1.1 seconds you game). The frame delay is 5 frames which is 1/12th of a second or in other words almost 4x shorter than what you're saying.

Regarding the grab timing between Nana and Popo, I said "For Example", the time isn't accurate. I wanted to make people aware of the grab timing difference between Nana and Popo.
"Inferior options" ? I've easily 0 to death - chaingrabbed characters in my 2nd week of practicing chaingrabs using these options. Again, these are my opinion and works best for me and might help other people. Many guides don't cover performing the chaingrab in character-by-character detail. If you read the title, these are Tips and not an official guide. I am aware that making a guide now would be outdated. Furthermore, I thank you for taking the time to write your opinion and providing the frame information

 

[Demna]

If I had this information when I first began chaingrabbing then I would have had a much stronger start. I struggled in the beggining due to the difference in weight between characters and not realizing that it takes longer for Popo to regrab than Nana, I found out about these informations by personal practice and wished if there was someone that made it easy as to explain it in details. If you don't like the tips that I offered, then that's your opinion and I respect it because you might have a faster and more complex way of CGing. Again, this is for those who had just begun practicing Iceclimbers and it offers them a head start which might make their training easier.

 

[B0NK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

This outdated video guide from March 2008 is more useful than this guide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juS9dgfNKxw

This still outdated video guide from April 2010 is still more useful than this guide.

All chaingrabs are personal preference. All chaingrabs have advantages and disadvantages.

tl;dr Your guide is bad. I'd suggesting taking Delux's recommendations into consideration if you want to write a good, up-to-date guide.

 

[Demna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

This outdated video guide from March 2008 is more useful than this guide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juS9dgfNKxw


This still outdated video guide from April 2010 is still more useful than this guide.

tl;dr Your guide is bad. I'd suggesting taking Delux's recommendations into consideration if you want to write a good, up-to-date guide.

Are people blind or something ? This isn't a guide for godsake, it's just tips that may help players that are in a struggle with chaingrabbing. If I wanted to make an official guide then I would have spent more effort and testing into it.

 

[B0NK]

My apologies, then these are bad tips.

Chaingrabbing is completely personal preference, and misleading tips are not what a player struggling with chaingrabbing needs.

 

[DeLux]

Like I said, the main reason why it's outdated is because you're advocating the use of non-tripless options. At which point, if we aren't giving tips for "ideal" options, it just becomes a crapshoot of just do whatever CG works for you plus a few other factors like Dthrows tend to have larger regrab windows than Fthrows and help avoid mashing better at the cost of taking more space to execute etc.

That doesn't even begin to get into the hurtbox issues that I've documented on Lucas which I have no idea why anyone would want to try to fthrow that character if they want consistency because that's absurd objectively speaking.

If it works for you that's awesome and you can present it as a tip if you want, but it doesn't mean that there aren't objectively better options assuming same level of execution (ie the paradigm of executable, unmashable, and tripless). If execution is an issue, practicing is probably going to be more helpful than trying to temporarily mask the problem with a new style of CG unless it presents some relative advantage (ie tripless and unmashable). Some of the options your present only work on the tier of executable, which lacks in the other two areas which is a step backwards in the metagame.

 

[Demna]

Chaingrabbing is a completely personal preference, I agree with that. However, these tips might be bad for you and no, they are not misleading. I have helped my friends using these advices and I wanted to help the public. Some plays might see these chaingrabs as maladaptive, but some people will get a basic idea about CGing with different weight characters and helps them out. Regarding Lucas, if you find it hard to F-throw him (which I find easy) then you can always D-throw him instead, I've included this in my B-throw to D-throw section. To make this clear, these tips are for begginer Iceclimbers and not for those with experiance who are used to 0-death chaingrabs.

 

[Demna]

Like I said, the main reason why it's outdated is because you're advocating the use of non-tripless options. At which point, if we aren't giving tips for "ideal" options, it just becomes a crapshoot of just do whatever CG works for you plus a few other factors like Dthrows tend to have larger regrab windows than Fthrows and help avoid mashing better at the cost of taking more space to execute etc.

That doesn't even begin to get into the hurtbox issues that I've documented on Lucas which I have no idea why anyone would want to try to fthrow that character if they want consistency because that's absurd objectively speaking.

If it works for you that's awesome and you can present it as a tip if you want, but it doesn't mean that there aren't objectively better options assuming same level of execution (ie the paradigm of executable, unmashable, and tripless). If execution is an issue, practicing is probably going to be more helpful than trying to temporarily mask the problem with a new style of CG unless it presents some relative advantage (ie tripless and unmashable). Some of the options your present only work on the tier of executable, which lacks in the other two areas which is a step backwards in the metagame.

Once a player gets hold of basic chaingrabs and becomes good at it, it becomes unmashable. Regarding trip, how would you prevent that? 9B and Vinnie trip sometimes and lose their grabs, are you saying there are assured tripless chaingrabs?

 

[| Big D |]

These tips may lead people in the direction of which chain grab they them self find easiest to perform while at the same time it may cause people to think that these are the methods where if they can't get these then they won't be able to chain grab ever because they can't grasp the easier chain grabs so they won't be able to do the harder ones.

Tripping occurs during chaingrabs whenever Nana or Popo dash. In most chaingrabs, the cause of the trip is when the ICs player tries to bthrow with Popo and tapping the analog. Tapping the analog basically makes the backthrow much easier to space.

In order to make a chain grab tripless, the only requirement is to not dash. You can continue forwards and do dthrows/fthrows and it will be tripless as long as there are no dashes. If the need to turnaround comes then you have to find away to change direction without using that particular Popo bthrow. You can do a soft turn where you don't tap the analog, only thing is the window for the spacing is much tighter. You can hobble the character, but that is susceptible to SDI and mashing at low percents, also not good on platforms. The most common method for ding tripless is to use a Nana bthrow and catch with Popo. You can use that to reverse direction and can be done in one place. It's worthwhile to learn as it can be done on platforms.

As for mashing, there are definitely chain grabs that can be mashed out of, especially at low percents. Escaping a CG generally comes from a pause in where you have to wait in order to continue the CG. This can include when you get a grab as Popo and have to wait for Nana to catch up, you can hobble as Nana runs to make it a bit faster though. With hobbling, the window is where when you grab with Popo you have to wait until Nana's grab animation is over in order to continue hobbling, howeverif the character is heavy enough you may just be able to get the regrab with Nana. In most cases however, the window is during the Popo bthrow which is also what causes tripping. Problem is you have to wait for Nana to be ready for her to catch. To remedy this you can use Nana's bthrow and you eliminate/minimize pauses between throws so there is no chance to escape.

 

[Demna]

These tips may lead people in the direction of which chain grab they them self find easiest to perform while at the same time it may cause people to think that these are the methods where if they can't get these then they won't be able to chain grab ever because they can't grasp the easier chain grabs so they won't be able to do the harder ones.

Tripping occurs during chaingrabs whenever Nana or Popo dash. In most chaingrabs, the cause of the trip is when the ICs player tries to bthrow with Popo and tapping the analog. Tapping the analog basically makes the backthrow much easier to space.

In order to make a chain grab tripless, the only requirement is to not dash. You can continue forwards and do dthrows/fthrows and it will be tripless as long as there are no dashes. If the need to turnaround comes then you have to find away to change direction without using that particular Popo bthrow. You can do a soft turn where you don't tap the analog, only thing is the window for the spacing is much tighter. You can hobble the character, but that is susceptible to SDI and mashing at low percents, also not good on platforms. The most common method for ding tripless is to use a Nana bthrow and catch with Popo. You can use that to reverse direction and can be done in one place. It's worthwhile to learn as it can be done on platforms.

As for mashing, there are definitely chain grabs that can be mashed out of, especially at low percents. Escaping a CG generally comes from a pause in where you have to wait in order to continue the CG. This can include when you get a grab as Popo and have to wait for Nana to catch up, you can hobble as Nana runs to make it a bit faster though. With hobbling, the window is where when you grab with Popo you have to wait until Nana's grab animation is over in order to continue hobbling, howeverif the character is heavy enough you may just be able to get the regrab with Nana. In most cases however, the window is during the Popo bthrow which is also what causes tripping. Problem is you have to wait for Nana to be ready for her to catch. To remedy this you can use Nana's bthrow and you eliminate/minimize pauses between throws so there is no chance to escape.

If you noticed the notifications which I typed in green and underlined, I stated that it might not work in your favor and it isn't for everyone. I'm aware that dashing and turnarounds do cause tripping. However, I still believe a begginer should back throw specific character to Nana since it is much easier that F/D-throwing them. Ofc, when they get more comfortable in chaingrabs they can disinclude continuous B-throw chaingrabs and focus more on the tripless chaingrabs. This is is what I did but it took me a while to get used to it, beggining with Bthrow to Nana with some characters have helped me in getting the concept down. Again, this is my perspective and it isn't "the absolute and only way to go", some people might find this method helpful to grasp the general concept of chaingrabs and form their own after training.

 

[DeLux]

Pretty hard for us to accept your opinions for what they are at face value when you won't accept our opinion that we think this thread has issues and might be detrimental to general IC development.

 

[Demna]

Pretty hard for us to accept your opinions for what they are at face value when you won't accept our opinion that we think this thread has issues and might be detrimental to general IC development.

I never declined your opinion. Your opinion is correct and more efficient. However, I think your opinion is for those who are experianced and are not in the beggining of their training. I find it much more effcient to disinclude B-throw to Nana to prevent trips, but it is harder to perform chaingrabs on specific characters without the B-throw to Nana and that's why I think that just for the beggining, players should B-throw to Nana to get down the concept on the CG to understand it better.

 

[DeLux]

Works for me, minus the part about non-tripless for beginners for a variety of reasons, but not worth arguing over at this point.

Hopefully new people read between the lines and realize that if CGing is preference based, if you're going to invest time, one should take the options with the highest threshold for accuracy/conversion and use practice to increase levels of execution rather than working off an outdated crutch that one is easier than the other. Outside of a few examples, the misconception that a P Bthrow is "easier" leads to its use when it is typically unnecessary, outdated, and a downgrade considering what one could be practicing in its stead as opportunity cost.

Yall can do you what you want. But when you get frustrated because you are proficient enough at the CG to get you to the money rounds and then you lose from tripping which leads you to either resigning yourself to having the fear of tripping when money is all on the line or risk pushing forward with dropping grabs due to the lack of execution that comes when learning how to CG all over again this time with the tripless CG, don't ask me what you should have done differently. You should have started with solid fundamentals instead of taking the cop out.

/end thread

 

[Demna]

Works for me, minus the part about non-tripless for beginners for a variety of reasons, but not worth arguing over at this point.

We all have our ways of executing things, this method worked well to build my understanding of the CG and to other people as well. If you think that begginers should take tripless options into consideration from the beggining of their training then it's your opinion and it isn't wrong, I just believe into taking things step by step.

 

[DeLux]

To be fair, it's hard for me to consider your opinion on the matter as valid when you didn't know that the tripless options existed until it was pointed out to you in the thread.

Who knows how solid you would be at the tripless CG if you had access to it from the start? Having taught multiple people to CG via the tripless without them having any prior CGing knowledge, I haven't seen any difference in the progressions of rate of learning to CG prior to my tripless discovery and after my tripless discovery.

 

[Demna]

To be fair, it's hard for me to consider your opinion on the matter as valid when you didn't know that the tripless options existed until it was pointed out to you in the thread.

Who knows how solid you would be at the tripless CG if you had access to it from the start? Having taught multiple people to CG via the tripless without them having any prior CGing knowledge, I haven't seen any difference in the progressions of rate of learning to CG prior to my tripless discovery and after my tripless discovery.

I am aware of the tripless process from the beggining. However, I think it's much easier to B-throw some characters than D/F-throwing them. It is the fastest possible chaingrab than can be learn imo for those light characters. Learning the tripless options is more efficient but takes much more time to master. That's why I think they should know how to B-throw to Nana as a backup if they struggled during the D/F-throw to Nana.

 

[DeLux]

Once a player gets hold of basic chaingrabs and becomes good at it, it becomes unmashable. Regarding trip, how would you prevent that? 9B and Vinnie trip sometimes and lose their grabs, are you saying there are assured tripless chaingrabs?

I am aware of the tripless process from the beggining.

I am going to call "ummmmmm No" on that one


Look, I get it, most of the top pros use P Bthrow. Most of the top pros also learned to CG prior to the invention of the tripless CG. Most of the top pros don't want to go through the pain of relearning to CG via tripless, because relearning to CG in pressure situations might cost them to lose situations that they might win with a CG they've already practiced since the beginning of brawl. Their case is different because they have established play that can win with money on the line.

But assuming someone new is going to pick up the CGs as a beginner? There is almost 0 reason to practice how to repeated P Bthrow > N D/Fthrow option except for the rare isolated situational scenario you might need it when you can't use your P D/Fthrow > N Bthrow option or the documented hurtbox orientation issues on the Earth Bound Kids. Like anything, the more time you invest into it, the more practice you can put into it. The sooner you practice, the sooner you master it. If your time is limited, you might as well master the best thing rather than the second to best thing.

 

[-LzR-]

Taking shortcuts to avoid having to spend effort learning things is a sure way to not improve much.

 

[DeLux]

Taking shortcuts to avoid having to spend effort learning things is a sure way to not improve much.

I don't necessarily think it's a shortcut, but I can see how you might think it is.

Like I've probably spent close to 500 hours practicing the CG on MK with PBthrow > N Dthrow and have a drop rate slightly higher than the trip rate because I don't drop it much anymore under normal circumstances. I've probably put in close to 50 hours on the P Fthrow > N Bthrow on MK and have a drop rate that's twice as high. However, I've spent 1/10th the time practicing the P Throw > N Bthrow on MK (in part due to the MK ban but also in part because I have the PBthrow > N Dthrow crutch). I imagine that if I get to the 500 hour threshold on MK, I'd have a drop rate that's lower than the trip rate, theoretically speaking, especially I've halved my drop rate in just like the last 10 hours of practicing the tripless. It's hard to want to put that work in though because of the crutch, which is part of why I so strongly advocate the tripless.

Edit: Eh, now that I think about it, it kind of is a shortcut assuming your resign yourself to being okay with tripping. Otherwise it becomes about taking calculated risk of wagering your ability to win in the short term for the added ability to win in the longer term.

 

[Demna]

I am going to call "ummmmmm No" on that one


Look, I get it, most of the top pros use P Bthrow. Most of the top pros also learned to CG prior to the invention of the tripless CG. Most of the top pros don't want to go through the pain of relearning to CG via tripless, because relearning to CG in pressure situations might cost them to lose situations that they might win with a CG they've already practiced since the beginning of brawl. Their case is different because they have established play that can win with money on the line.

But assuming someone new is going to pick up the CGs as a beginner? There is almost 0 reason to practice how to repeated P Bthrow > N D/Fthrow option except for the rare isolated situational scenario you might need it when you can't use your P D/Fthrow > N Bthrow option or the documented hurtbox orientation issues on the Earth Bound Kids. Like anything, the more time you invest into it, the more practice you can put into it. The sooner you practice, the sooner you master it. If your time is limited, you might as well master the best thing rather than the second to best thing.

I am aware of the tripless CG using D/F-throw. I thought that you had a method that allowed a tripless CG using B-throw to Nana. Mastering the D/Fthrow is much harder to master than the B-throw to nana since the D/Fthrow has two different timing (5 frames grab difference between Nana and Popo) while the B-throw to Nana has only one timing and can be mastered and executed faster and easily. Vinnie dropped 5 tripless CG against Salem in an exibition, the stage was FD which should have supported Vinnie, between a 1000 B-throw CG that I saw, only one was dropped due to tripping. Tbh, I won't let tripping, which has an extremely low chance, change my way to a much harder way. Imo, the chances of dropping a tripless CG is greater than tripping on a B-throw CG. I still support tripless CG to be mastered, but it would require an abundant amount of effort. While the B-throw CG requires only a quarter ofthe tripless CG effort and it's more assured.

 

[DeLux]

I am aware of the tripless CG using D/F-throw.

Okay, I'm not advocating using that CG since it's bad. Unless you like getting mashed at low percents. I agree P Dthrow > N Fthrow is bad so most of your points are moot anyways.

I thought that you had a method that allowed a tripless CG using B-throw to Nana.

You apparently haven't read either Big D or my posts because we both said that you want Nana to Bthrow, not Popo for the tripless. Your statements continually show me that you don't know what the ideal tripless CG to use even is. Which means any of your commentary on whether it's easier to learn a CG you didn't know existed compared to one you've already learned is baseless since you haven't even attempted to learn the right CG in the first place.

Mastering the D/Fthrow is much harder to master than the B-throw to nana since the D/Fthrow has two different timing (5 frames grab difference between Nana and Popo) while the B-throw to Nana has only one timing and can be mastered and executed faster and easily.

There are different timings based on frame data for different characters on different launch resistances. From a statistical standpoint, there are equal numbers of P Fthrow > N Bthrow (Tripless) combinations as there are P Bthrow > N Fthrow (non tripless) combinations. There are more combinations of P Bthrow > N Dthrow in timings to learn than there are for P Fthrow > N Bthrow. So the idea that one Bthrow timing you're trying to argue is fallacious if we do it comparatively based on stats, so no.

Vinnie dropped 5 tripless CG against Salem in an exibition, the stage was FD which should have supported Vinnie, between a 1000 B-throw CG that I saw, only one was dropped due to tripping.

I already addressed this in my previous post. I know for a fact that Vinnie has put in more practice on the tripping CG than he has on the tripless one. If he were more practiced on the tripless, logic would dictate that he would use it >_>

Plus: You exaggerate your numbers given the trip rate on a P Bthrow > N Grab is 1.99%. He's more likely to trip than not trip by the time he's gone through 6 stocks (meaning you have a higher chance of tripping during a CG at least once per set than you have the chance of not tripping during a CG during a set assuming you win), let alone 80+ stocks you're suggesting with 1000 Bthrows, which would start approaching 0 as a limit for probability of not tripping.

Tbh, I won't let tripping, which has an extremely low chance, change my way to a much harder way. Imo, the chances of dropping a tripless CG is greater than tripping on a B-throw CG.

Statistically speaking, the drop rate is: Rate of Human Error + Trip Rate. If the rate of human error is equal because they've done equal practice than the CG with the higher trip rate will have the higher drop rate. Your claim of a "much harder way" has been debunked based on combinations of timings needed to be learned in order for success.

I still support tripless CG to be mastered, but it would require an abundant amount of effort.

There is actual objective means to show that learning the tripless is actually easier than the non-tripless CG in terms of effort which I've debunked in other threads. For example, the P Fthrow > N Bthrow can be done strictly on visual cues without memorizing timing because of it's structure, while the P Bthrow aspect of the non tripless CG has to be done on a timing mechanism of sorts. But regardless, there really isn't any proof that the rates aren't equal between the two worst case scenario. There is evidence to believe the tripless is easier to quality control than the tripping CG best case scenario.

While the B-throw CG requires only a quarter ofthe tripless CG effort and it's more assured.

There is zero statistical merit in this statement and it's baseless

Obviously you're free to your opinion, but objectively speaking I've presented almost overwhelming evidence which indicates your opinion is either biased, uninformed, or wrong.

Your intentions are good even if they are misdirected so I haven't closed the thread, but I'm suspecting that this is probably going to get locked since it doesn't really provide any sort of insight that isn't trumped by "go out and practice" or "pick a better option and then go out and practice"

 

[Demna]

Okay, I'm not advocating using that CG since it's bad. Unless you like getting mashed at low percents. I agree P Dthrow > N Fthrow is bad so most of your points are moot anyways.


You apparently haven't read either Big D or my posts because we both said that you want Nana to Bthrow, not Popo for the tripless. Your statements continually show me that you don't know what the ideal tripless CG to use even is. Which means any of your commentary on whether it's easier to learn a CG you didn't know existed compared to one you've already learned is baseless since you haven't even attempted to learn the right CG in the first place.



There are different timings based on frame data for different characters on different launch resistances. From a statistical standpoint, there are equal numbers of P Fthrow > N Bthrow (Tripless) combinations as there are P Bthrow > N Fthrow (non tripless) combinations. There are more combinations of P Bthrow > N Dthrow in timings to learn than there are for P Fthrow > N Bthrow. So the idea that one Bthrow timing you're trying to argue is fallacious if we do it comparatively based on stats, so no.



I already addressed this in my previous post. I know for a fact that Vinnie has put in more practice on the tripping CG than he has on the tripless one. If he were more practiced on the tripless, logic would dictate that he would use it >_>

Plus: You exaggerate your numbers given the trip rate on a P Bthrow > N Grab is 1.99%. He's more likely to trip than not trip by the time he's gone through 6 stocks (meaning you have a higher chance of tripping during a CG at least once per set than you have the chance of not tripping during a CG during a set assuming you win), let alone 80+ stocks you're suggesting with 1000 Bthrows, which would start approaching 0 as a limit for probability of not tripping.



Statistically speaking, the drop rate is: Rate of Human Error + Trip Rate. If the rate of human error is equal because they've done equal practice than the CG with the higher trip rate will have the higher drop rate. Your claim of a "much harder way" has been debunked based on combinations of timings needed to be learned in order for success.


There is actual objective means to show that learning the tripless is actually easier than the non-tripless CG in terms of effort which I've debunked in other threads. For example, the P Fthrow > N Bthrow can be done strictly on visual cues without memorizing timing because of it's structure, while the P Bthrow aspect of the non tripless CG has to be done on a timing mechanism of sorts. But regardless, there really isn't any proof that the rates aren't equal between the two worst case scenario. There is evidence to believe the tripless is easier to quality control than the tripping CG best case scenario.


There is zero statistical merit in this statement and it's baseless

Obviously you're free to your opinion, but objectively speaking I've presented almost overwhelming evidence which indicates your opinion is either biased, uninformed, or wrong.

Your intentions are good even if they are misdirected so I haven't closed the thread, but I'm suspecting that this is probably going to get locked since it doesn't really provide any sort of insight that isn't trumped by "go out and practice" or "pick a better option and then go out and practice"

I asked you if there was was a way to Bthrow to Nana without generating the chances of tripping, and not the opposite, please read carefully before criticizing. Regarding P Backthrow, I'm argueing its much easier to regrab with nana than a P D/F-throw. Regarding the timing, I am mainly talking about the double d-throw in comparison to a P B-throw to N F-throw. You said that there isn't an actual proof that the tripless CG requires more effort than the B-throw CG, I beg to differ since even top players such as Vinnie say that it does require greater effortt and reflexes to execute in top plays.

 

[Demna]

Well, although your opinion is different than mine regarding this topic, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to provide a concept which you argue is better (but requires much more effort), this helped me understand that there is more to the IC to acheive a perfect chaingrab. But regardless, I will still B-throw to nana since it works really well with me and I'm not planning to go that much into detail and reconstruct my concept of Chaingrabbing to prevent a 1% chance on tripping.

 

[Demna]

And please do keep in mind that I stated that this isn't for everyone and will work for some people and might not work for others, these are my tips and since they work for me I don't personally see them as misleading to those who can learn it in the same pace that I did.

 

[DeLux]

Please don't triple post

I asked you if there was was a way to Bthrow to Nana without generating the chances of tripping, and not the opposite, please read carefully before criticizing. Regarding P Backthrow, I'm argueing its much easier to regrab with nana than a P D/F-throw. Regarding the timing, I am mainly talking about the double d-throw in comparison to a P B-throw to N F-throw. You said that there isn't an actual proof that the tripless CG requires more effort than the B-throw CG, I beg to differ since even top players such as Vinnie say that it does require greater effortt and reflexes to execute in top plays.

...

If the IC doesn't want to mashed out on, they'll have to learn the P Dthrow > N Dthrow > CG options anyways to transition to CGs LOL
So numbers of my statement STILL stand

I already explained to you why the top players may or may not want to use the CG. Why do you keep bringing that up when it's already been adequately addressed? I provided evidence on how it takes less effort on an objective statistics base, and you're trying to refute it with someone's general opinion that's skewed based on having previous success with another option and doesn't want to risk that success against a new better option. It only requires more effort because it's a new option, not because it's harder option.

You seem to have a habit of skewing numbers to make things seem more in your favor when you say 1% trip rate on a CG. You have a nearly 2% (1.99%) chance trip rate, and as I said that boils down to across 6 stocks (aka 2 wins worth of stocks in a 3 stock game), based on those odds you are more likely than not to trip at least once. It sucks you (and by extension a lot of the other ICs) are alright with giving away free stocks when there's a better way if you'd only learn it. But hey, no big deal to me, just let your misconceived notion of "this thing is easier" continue despite the evidence I provided, and you can take your chances rolling the dice when something that's guaranteed is out there. Some of us like gambling, while some of us like giving ourselves the best chances possible to win. At this point all I'd have to say is "Good luck with that"

 

[Demna]

Please don't triple post



...

If the IC doesn't want to mashed out on, they'll have to learn the P Dthrow > N Dthrow > CG options anyways to transition to CGs LOL
So numbers of my statement STILL stand

I already explained to you why the top players may or may not want to use the CG. Why do you keep bringing that up when it's already been adequately addressed? I provided evidence on how it takes less effort on an objective statistics base, and you're trying to refute it with someone's general opinion that's skewed based on having previous success with another option and doesn't want to risk that success against a new better option. It only requires more effort because it's a new option, not because it's harder option.

I don't see how P Bthrow to N F/D throw can be mashed out on while P Dthrow to N Dthrow cannot be mashed out on.

 

[DeLux]

When you grab someone, there is a larger frame delay upon the initial grab that you have to wait for Nana to finish her grab cooldown before you can by frame data actually convert the grab with a throw from Popo to Nana.

You can circumvent that lag time by doing a P dthrow since Dthrows across the board are the longest animation time, giving Nana more time to cool down while the grab is unbreakable with Popo in the motion of throwing. Since Bthrows are usually about 20 frames shorter in order to successfully convert a throw to Nana, you have to wait 20 frames longer in a non throwing state in order to successfully convert the throw while in a mashable state. At the high level, if you have to wait for the Bthrow at anywhere below like 50-60%, it's reasonable to expect to be mashed out on.

 

[Demna]

When you grab someone, there is a larger frame delay upon the initial grab that you have to wait for Nana to finish her grab cooldown before you can by frame data actually convert the grab with a throw from Popo to Nana.

You can circumvent that lag time by doing a P dthrow since Dthrows across the board are the longest animation time, giving Nana more time to cool down while the grab is unbreakable with Popo in the motion of throwing. Since Bthrows are usually about 20 frames shorter in order to successfully convert a throw to Nana, you have to wait 20 frames longer in a non throwing state in order to successfully convert the throw while in a mashable state. At the high level, if you have to wait for the Bthrow at anywhere below like 50-60%, it's reasonable to expect to be mashed out on.

What I'd usually do when Nana isn't near when I get my initial grab is that I Back throw the opponent and footstool him using Nana. After that I'd grab him and perform a CG.

 

[DeLux]

You'd either have to reset them using ice shot which is stage dependent, but that's besides the point

What I'm talking about doesn't exist just because Nana might be far away. It exists when the ICs are at neutral and just grabbing someone while standing there since both climbers would grab, only one can hit so the other whiffs. Meaning you'd not be able to circumvent it by hobbling, even if it wasn't stage dependent. By blindly trying to find a work around just so you can be right in the argument, you've now created TWO mashable scenarios, when you grab the person initially and then after you grab them from the ice shot reset. There is a reason why the Dthrow > Dthrow Transitions are nearly universal now.

And now you're saying it's okay to learn another technique to cover that scenario, even though that requires more effort AND you still have the chances of tripping in your main CG? Seems hypocritical to me.

Nice try though. Just learn the tripless imo

 

[Demna]

And now you're saying it's okay to learn another technique to cover that scenario, even though that requires more effort AND you still have the chances of tripping in your main CG? Seems hypocritical to me.

Another technique? What scenario are you talking about?
If you're talking about hobbling to ensure that Nana is near popo, it's a regular technique to use in order to ensure than nana, after she's next to you, you perform the CG of your choice. I don't see how it's a cover up, its a technique that helps the GC because it results in the alignment of Nana with Popo.

 

[DeLux]

Your value is to minimize effort:

I'm saying people should learn to Dthrow Transition > Tripless CG which is two techniques which you criticized for being too much.

You just advocated that people learn to Bthrow > D/Fthrow CG. As well as use a Bthrow > Footstool > ice Shot > reset in order to setup the Bthrow > Dthrow/Fthrow to avoid the mashing issue that I stated (which doesn't even work in the first place) which is two techniques but is now all of a sudden alright? Seems hypocritical without even considering if it works or not lol

Either way you're going to be learning multiple techniques in order to convert grabs at the highest rate possible. So you might as well learn the better one at that point.

 

[Demna]

Hmmm, I've never had the problem where people would mashout in early percentages. However, if that was the case then I would likely consider the Double Downthrow. Still though, isn't P Downthrow to N Forwardthrow considered as an efficient chaingrab?

 

[DeLux]

The IASA length of Fthrow is not as good as the IASA on Dthrow, making it more susceptible to mashing. It matters at low percents against mashers

Which bring us back to the point that there is now no benefit of having to learn less CG timings by doing the tripless in comparison to the standard tripping CG.

 

[Demna]

The IASA length of Fthrow is not as good as the IASA on Dthrow, making it more susceptible to mashing. It matters at low percents against mashers

Which bring us back to the point that there is now no benefit of having to learn less CG timings by doing the tripless in comparison to the standard tripping CG.

Should ALL characters be Double Downthrowed? Or is there exceptions to some characters such as snake that should be hobbled?

 

[DeLux]

At early percents where mashing is an issue, I'd recommend Dthrow transitions if you have the space. Once you get the first dthrow transition, you can do whatever the hell you want, which is where I say you should do the tripless. Barring godlike SDI on the part of your opponent, hobbling is tripless. But it doesn't work on every stage. So if you HAVE to learn only one style CG, I'd recommend the D/Fthrow > Bthrow.

Don't try to hobble people from 0 - low-mid %. Good way to get mashed out on lol

 

[Demna]

At early percents where mashing is an issue, I'd recommend Dthrow transitions if you have the space. Once you get the first dthrow transition, you can do whatever the hell you want, which is where I say you should do the tripless.

Don't try to hobble people from 0 - low-mid %. Good way to get mashed out on lol

What I'd do on 0 is basically Dthrow to Nana F-air until they reach 36% and continue with my CG. But for Snake I'd go for one more D-throw to D-throw before starting to hobble.

 

[DeLux]

Don't Dthrow > Fair unless you have to (extremely rare scenarios). Good way to get mashed out on and they can technically SDI the Fair away so you can't grab them lol

 

[Demna]

Don't Dthrow > Fair unless you have to (extremely rare scenarios). Good way to get mashed out on and they can technically SDI the Fair away so you can't grab them lol

I see.