moonfolk
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 85
Calling all ICs mains!
I'd like to have an open discussion here about the ICs in their current state, particularly a place for people to post resources on new and old tech. As @Hylian mentioned in the social thread, a huge thing missing for the ICs is people willing to put in the work to advance their metagame. I, for one, have been waiting for their glitches to be removed before I proceeded with maining them, learning only the most basic combos, setups, and ATs I could in 3.5 to prepare for when 3.6 dropped.
With 3.6, there are some major differences with the character. Of course, the midstage infinite handoff was removed, but the bigger changes in my opinion are the fix to the momentum glitch (some people called it the turnaround glitch) and Nana's AI improvement. But what do these changes really offer?
REMOVAL OF THE MOMENTUM GLITCH
In 3.5, when you pivoted with ICs (or just SoPo) the character would slide backwards, messing up the spacing of various moves. It was nearly impossible to follow up with things like f-tilt, up-smash, and the likes, when you needed to pivot first. It also made you fall off of the stage and platforms (platforms being the big one for me) when you REALLY didn't want to. I don't know if the glitch made it worse before, but I feel like RAR is really useful in 3.6. I just can't remember, to be honest.
What you get from the removal of the glitch is a more fluid, easier-to-control ICs. No more combos dropped due to the glitch. I feel like I didn't realize how much it affected the ICs aggressive punish and approach options until I started doing more aggressive things in 3.6. I don't have exact information besides that "they feel better," but you can plainly tell the difference if you played them at all seriously in 3.5.
NANA AI IMPROVED
It's not mentioned in the change log for whatever reason, but Nana is WAY better all around in this patch. She will no longer up-b (belay) for no reason offstage merely choosing to slowly fall once near stage level or below. When she's high up, she'll squall or sometimes throw ice blocks, but I can't figure out how to make her do so. But that's part of playing ICs isn't it? Adapting to Nana is really important. Anyway, just know she won't go suicidal on you.
Note however that Nana will still belay right before Popo if you spam the input and Popo isn't out of endlag or otherwise can't act. Basically, if you are trying to mash up-b out of tumble and Nana gets out before you and is close enough to observe your commands, she will up-b, usually with Popo getting out of lag/stun and doing it too, forcing them to fall to their deaths. I did it once on accident, addressed it, and began doing it on purpose so as to avoid it in the future. Basically, don't spam up-b. Be patient.
Another thing that was changed is that independent button presses now function correctly for Nana. It's actually in the change log, but in the "Misc" section, not in the ICs section.
PM-SPECIFIC STUFF
Some things to consider when playing ICs in PM in general:
- Belay kills. It has a lot of knockback and is easy to hit against some characters. Consider learning Nana-rockets and other tech. I don't know if there are other things to do with Belay. I wish you could Belay OoS.
Anyway, Belay kills. Let's figure out some ways to use it!
- There are a lot of desynchs. There are the normal dodge/roll ones, but also getup, dash-dance, and ledge desynchs that are all useful. I particularly like ledge desynchs, having Nana attack while I wavedash in really deep for either a grab or smash, sometimes I also have Nana drop from ledge and jump in with an aerial, which makes Popo ledge jump for either a waveland onto a platform or another aerial, which covers a lot of range and can be very confusing.
- One thing I don't ever see people do with ICs together is dash dance, but it is SUPER confusing for your opponent and very useful for threatening a lot of options. I think most people don't really know this, or if they do, they don't use it, but when you dash dance you can jump to keep ICs from desynching, which means you can wavedash out of it if you don't feel like desynching Nana, or you can just input an attack or special to desynch Nana. Basically, you can threaten a whole ton of things with it and it is VERY confusing for your opponent (especially my opponents, because I use the blue/slightly-lighter-blue skin). I like to throw in multiple WDs anyway, even at short angles or straight down. You see the best Snake mains do this for similar reasons, and that they have a great DACUS, (check out some ProfPro matches to see what I mean) but never any ICs. Let's figure out a way to incorporate dash dancing more than with just SoPo!
- When you use the c-stick to jump while holding shield, Nana will up-smash while Popo jumps. This has a lot of untapped potential, I think. First, you can up-smash with Nana while doing an aerial with Popo, and if you hold the c-stick up a little longer you can get a full hop out of it, widening your options (say, going for a f-air to then waveland). Even just drifting n-air can be good. One thing I like to do is WD > hold shield > immediately hit c-stick up for up-smash/jump OoS > drifting n-air > SHFFL > Nana grab. I treat it sort of like a DACUS, trying to get the c-stick up OoS as quickly as I can. I believe you can input it frame 1 if you are that fast, but I'm not sure about frame data, jumpsquat (which is 3 frames for ICs), and all that tech stuff in relation to when Nana smashes, etc, but really, it's an interesting option in the very least.
- The other option is I've been grinding WD OoS using c-stick up for a different option than just retreating/approaching. With a mid-range WD, Nana will be dragged along with you, doing up-smash along the way. If you do something else with Popo you can really cover a lot of space with tilts/smashes (u-tilt being pretty good in my experience), and also start the desynch process, allowing for some potentially threatening shield pressure, especially when you follow up blocked smash attacks with Nana grabbing or using a multi-hit like squall or blizzard once she catches up to you due to the rubberband effect (which is pretty fast).
- A weird DACUS. I haven't really found a use for it YET, but damn it, I will. When you DACUS with ICs, Popo up-smashes while Nana does a running grab. Now, if someone is in the PERFECT position and tries to WD away from your up-smash, you MIGHT get a grab with Nana, but the endlag on the up-smash will likely be too much to really follow it up with anything. Maybe a belay if you immediately run over there with Popo. I'll have to figure out some more about it first. There might be a way to control Nana a bit better. If she would do a dash attack instead of a throw that would be great; it might actually be possible using attack instead of throw (using Z to DACUS), but I haven't yet tried it.
- There are still 2 infinites, if you really feel like learning them. One is the d-throw > b-throw infinite, the other is d-throw > Nana footstool > regrab. Both are pretty difficult to do, but hey, they're there. I'm probably going to try and learn one or the other, and I can already get 1-3 of the footstool one (although I usually feel good with just 1 lol. It's really hard).
------------
Anyway, I just wanted to open up this thread to everyone who wants to develop the metagame and comment further on the 3.6 changes, things you notice. I know a lot of this information is in the social thread, but I'd like to keep it somewhere a little more concise. I'll add stuff to the post as it becomes available, videos included. Let's put the smash duo in the spotlight! I know they have a lot of untapped potential and hope that we can extract that potential for the greater good of the ICs community.
I'd like to have an open discussion here about the ICs in their current state, particularly a place for people to post resources on new and old tech. As @Hylian mentioned in the social thread, a huge thing missing for the ICs is people willing to put in the work to advance their metagame. I, for one, have been waiting for their glitches to be removed before I proceeded with maining them, learning only the most basic combos, setups, and ATs I could in 3.5 to prepare for when 3.6 dropped.
With 3.6, there are some major differences with the character. Of course, the midstage infinite handoff was removed, but the bigger changes in my opinion are the fix to the momentum glitch (some people called it the turnaround glitch) and Nana's AI improvement. But what do these changes really offer?
REMOVAL OF THE MOMENTUM GLITCH
In 3.5, when you pivoted with ICs (or just SoPo) the character would slide backwards, messing up the spacing of various moves. It was nearly impossible to follow up with things like f-tilt, up-smash, and the likes, when you needed to pivot first. It also made you fall off of the stage and platforms (platforms being the big one for me) when you REALLY didn't want to. I don't know if the glitch made it worse before, but I feel like RAR is really useful in 3.6. I just can't remember, to be honest.
What you get from the removal of the glitch is a more fluid, easier-to-control ICs. No more combos dropped due to the glitch. I feel like I didn't realize how much it affected the ICs aggressive punish and approach options until I started doing more aggressive things in 3.6. I don't have exact information besides that "they feel better," but you can plainly tell the difference if you played them at all seriously in 3.5.
NANA AI IMPROVED
It's not mentioned in the change log for whatever reason, but Nana is WAY better all around in this patch. She will no longer up-b (belay) for no reason offstage merely choosing to slowly fall once near stage level or below. When she's high up, she'll squall or sometimes throw ice blocks, but I can't figure out how to make her do so. But that's part of playing ICs isn't it? Adapting to Nana is really important. Anyway, just know she won't go suicidal on you.
Note however that Nana will still belay right before Popo if you spam the input and Popo isn't out of endlag or otherwise can't act. Basically, if you are trying to mash up-b out of tumble and Nana gets out before you and is close enough to observe your commands, she will up-b, usually with Popo getting out of lag/stun and doing it too, forcing them to fall to their deaths. I did it once on accident, addressed it, and began doing it on purpose so as to avoid it in the future. Basically, don't spam up-b. Be patient.
Another thing that was changed is that independent button presses now function correctly for Nana. It's actually in the change log, but in the "Misc" section, not in the ICs section.
Which means that you can wavedash OoS a lot easier (to me at least) by holding one trigger (R for me) and just wavedashing with the other trigger. In 3.5, Nana would jump instead of WD, which was usually bad.
PM-SPECIFIC STUFF
Some things to consider when playing ICs in PM in general:
- Belay kills. It has a lot of knockback and is easy to hit against some characters. Consider learning Nana-rockets and other tech. I don't know if there are other things to do with Belay. I wish you could Belay OoS.
Anyway, Belay kills. Let's figure out some ways to use it!- There are a lot of desynchs. There are the normal dodge/roll ones, but also getup, dash-dance, and ledge desynchs that are all useful. I particularly like ledge desynchs, having Nana attack while I wavedash in really deep for either a grab or smash, sometimes I also have Nana drop from ledge and jump in with an aerial, which makes Popo ledge jump for either a waveland onto a platform or another aerial, which covers a lot of range and can be very confusing.
- One thing I don't ever see people do with ICs together is dash dance, but it is SUPER confusing for your opponent and very useful for threatening a lot of options. I think most people don't really know this, or if they do, they don't use it, but when you dash dance you can jump to keep ICs from desynching, which means you can wavedash out of it if you don't feel like desynching Nana, or you can just input an attack or special to desynch Nana. Basically, you can threaten a whole ton of things with it and it is VERY confusing for your opponent (especially my opponents, because I use the blue/slightly-lighter-blue skin). I like to throw in multiple WDs anyway, even at short angles or straight down. You see the best Snake mains do this for similar reasons, and that they have a great DACUS, (check out some ProfPro matches to see what I mean) but never any ICs. Let's figure out a way to incorporate dash dancing more than with just SoPo!
- When you use the c-stick to jump while holding shield, Nana will up-smash while Popo jumps. This has a lot of untapped potential, I think. First, you can up-smash with Nana while doing an aerial with Popo, and if you hold the c-stick up a little longer you can get a full hop out of it, widening your options (say, going for a f-air to then waveland). Even just drifting n-air can be good. One thing I like to do is WD > hold shield > immediately hit c-stick up for up-smash/jump OoS > drifting n-air > SHFFL > Nana grab. I treat it sort of like a DACUS, trying to get the c-stick up OoS as quickly as I can. I believe you can input it frame 1 if you are that fast, but I'm not sure about frame data, jumpsquat (which is 3 frames for ICs), and all that tech stuff in relation to when Nana smashes, etc, but really, it's an interesting option in the very least.
- The other option is I've been grinding WD OoS using c-stick up for a different option than just retreating/approaching. With a mid-range WD, Nana will be dragged along with you, doing up-smash along the way. If you do something else with Popo you can really cover a lot of space with tilts/smashes (u-tilt being pretty good in my experience), and also start the desynch process, allowing for some potentially threatening shield pressure, especially when you follow up blocked smash attacks with Nana grabbing or using a multi-hit like squall or blizzard once she catches up to you due to the rubberband effect (which is pretty fast).
- A weird DACUS. I haven't really found a use for it YET, but damn it, I will. When you DACUS with ICs, Popo up-smashes while Nana does a running grab. Now, if someone is in the PERFECT position and tries to WD away from your up-smash, you MIGHT get a grab with Nana, but the endlag on the up-smash will likely be too much to really follow it up with anything. Maybe a belay if you immediately run over there with Popo. I'll have to figure out some more about it first. There might be a way to control Nana a bit better. If she would do a dash attack instead of a throw that would be great; it might actually be possible using attack instead of throw (using Z to DACUS), but I haven't yet tried it.
- There are still 2 infinites, if you really feel like learning them. One is the d-throw > b-throw infinite, the other is d-throw > Nana footstool > regrab. Both are pretty difficult to do, but hey, they're there. I'm probably going to try and learn one or the other, and I can already get 1-3 of the footstool one (although I usually feel good with just 1 lol. It's really hard).
------------
Anyway, I just wanted to open up this thread to everyone who wants to develop the metagame and comment further on the 3.6 changes, things you notice. I know a lot of this information is in the social thread, but I'd like to keep it somewhere a little more concise. I'll add stuff to the post as it becomes available, videos included. Let's put the smash duo in the spotlight! I know they have a lot of untapped potential and hope that we can extract that potential for the greater good of the ICs community.
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