Ice Climber Panel (Testing Topics and Standard Term List)

[DeLux]

I am going to recommend right now for the panel:

1. ealert
2. G. Fang

If there are any other recommendations help me out. I kind of want to expedite this process since I feel like since all of you guys are already in the lab, it would make it easy to create a precedent of example and expectations from panels in order to help me guide the other panels.

Update 5/17/11: We're pretty set on topics of testing at this point, so we're going to move into making a standard terms list. This is going to be a pain in the *** compared to most characters since ICs probably have the most ATs by far just in desyncs lol

To Do:
Standard Terms List
Testing
Release

 

[EverAlert]

join join join join join join JOIN

I have a mile-long document FULL of **** we can get to testing right away. **** the locals

 

[Sieguest]

1. ealert
2. G. Fang
3. Hylian
4. GIMR
5. DeLux

Methinks EA and I can agree upon this revised list.

 

[DeLux]

I'll serve on the panel, but I don't know how much time I'm necessarily going to have to "test" things given that I'm essentially going to be serving on every single panel as we try to facilitate the direction we're heading.

I have lots of stuff to get tested though as well

However, I'd like to get at least one of the two other guys recommended involved in the project given the three of us more or less come from the same school of philosophy when it comes to Climbers Tech so it would be nice to get a different perspective.

 

[DeLux]

I also nominate Mr. Game and Watch and 2D Jeff for the panel

But topics for testing:

Desync Frame Data
Desync Spacing Data
IB lock frame advantage
Uair > Footstool
CG frame data, spacing info, and sound files
Hitlag desync testing

Revised mashing formula for variable rate - I'll explain later

 

[DeLux]

Solo Dthrow Fresh Maximums and all stalenesses

 

[EverAlert]

[18:57:00] EA先生: I am
[18:57:03] EA先生: 99.9% certain
[18:57:12] EA先生: that
[18:57:29] EA先生: stun carries over during a grab if you regrab out of throw stun
[18:57:39] EA先生: like
[18:57:45] EA先生: I vaguely remember confirming it in a test
[18:57:47] EA先生: anyway
[18:57:49] EA先生: the point is
[18:57:56] EA先生: we should see if this affects mashability at all

also, extending on the idea of the previous post, we really need to test for solo cg regrabbability at every full percent at all staleness permutations, for all styles of regrab (pure buffer, buffer dash time grab, pure timing, walking grab, against wall), and obviously the windows of all these. Ideally we'd also figure out permutations for percentage decimals, and on slopes, but I don't want to induce infinite testing works so full percents should suffice for now.

 

[DeLux]

I have just confirmed that CGing Jiggly Puff is not an Infinite.
I have also confirmed that CGing Bowser is for Bthrow and Fthrow.


Read this please if you're in the panel:

Spoiler

[3:45:39 AM] DeLux: I dthrow from Nana to Popo with Snake
[3:45:52 AM] DeLux: the difference between the hitbox and IASA for snake is 15
[3:46:17 AM] EA先生: hmm
[3:46:27 AM] DeLux: aka frames 43-57
[3:46:33 AM] EA先生: so why is the window 5?
[3:46:40 AM] DeLux: you can grab on 43
[3:46:47 AM] DeLux: no shield buffer needed
[3:46:49 AM] DeLux: you can grab on 44
[3:46:53 AM] DeLux: no shield buffer need
[3:46:57 AM] DeLux: you can grab on 45
[3:47:01 AM] DeLux: no shield buffer needed
[3:47:04 AM] DeLux: you can grab on 46
[3:47:08 AM] DeLux: no shield buffer needed
[3:47:12 AM] DeLux: you get to 47
[3:47:15 AM] DeLux: and Nana does a standing grab
[3:47:18 AM] DeLux: if you don't shield buffer
[3:47:25 AM] DeLux: because it's within 10 frames of the IASA
[3:47:33 AM] DeLux: so it buffers a frame perfect garb
[3:47:35 AM] DeLux: grab*
[3:47:43 AM] DeLux: and up until 58%
[3:47:49 AM] DeLux: I can grab with Popo
[3:47:55 AM] DeLux: and have Nana buffer a standing grab
[3:47:57 AM] DeLux: therefore
[3:48:02 AM] DeLux: the grab window is 5 frames
[3:49:01 AM] EA先生: i dont really follow that logic
[3:49:13 AM] DeLux: ?
[3:49:23 AM] DeLux: what's wrong with it
[3:49:45 AM] EA先生: you can regrab on 43 correct?
[3:49:49 AM] DeLux: right
[3:49:59 AM] EA先生: and 58
[3:50:21 AM] EA先生: how is that not a 16 frame window?
[3:50:49 AM] DeLux: ?
[3:51:03 AM | Edited 3:51:27 AM] DeLux: you can regrab with a climber
[3:51:19 AM] DeLux: frames 43-47
[3:51:34 AM] DeLux: where did 58 come from?
[3:51:44 AM] EA先生: and up until 58%
[3:51:58 AM] DeLux: that's the damage
[3:52:01 AM] DeLux: ...
[3:52:11 AM] EA先生:
oh[3:46 AM] DeLux:

<<< and up until 58%
I can grab with Popo
[3:52:15 AM] EA先生: oops[3:46 AM] DeLux:

<<< and up until 58%
I can grab with Popo
[3:52:19 AM] DeLux: right
[3:52:24 AM] DeLux: 58% is the cut off
[3:52:27 AM] DeLux: from when the window switches
[3:52:30 AM] DeLux: from 5 to 4 frames
[3:52:32 AM] DeLux: because after 58
[3:52:40 AM] DeLux: I can't get Nana to do a buffered standing grab
[3:52:51 AM] DeLux: without whiffing the regrab
[3:52:51 AM] EA先生: wow my skype just spazzed
[3:53:06 AM] EA先生: right
[3:53:21 AM] EA先生: yeah
[3:53:22 AM] EA先生: nvm
[3:53:23 AM] EA先生: I was
[3:53:27 AM] EA先生: reading the whole thing wrong. :/
[3:53:37 AM] DeLux: oh
[3:53:41 AM] DeLux: so now do you follow my logic?
[3:54:56 AM] DeLux: I'm relatively certain
[3:54:56 AM] EA先生: yeah
[3:55:06 AM] DeLux: that above around 160% the window goes from 4 to 3
[3:55:36 AM] DeLux: the lighter the character, the faster the frame window drops as damage goes up
[3:55:58 AM] EA先生: yeah
[3:56:00 AM] DeLux: unless the hitbox is fatty I bet
[3:56:01 AM] EA先生: reasonable
[3:56:03 AM] DeLux: hurtbox*
[3:56:14 AM] DeLux: so that being said
[3:56:20 AM] DeLux: Bthrow > Dthrow on Lights
[3:56:24 AM] DeLux: MIGHT not be the way to go
[3:56:33 AM] DeLux: but Bthrow > Dthrow on heavies?
[3:56:44 AM] DeLux: 4+ frame windows da bess
[3:57:34 AM] EA先生: OH
[3:57:35 AM] EA先生: dkjgbhxg,jf
[3:57:35 AM] EA先生: h
[3:57:35 AM] EA先生: sfh
[3:57:35 AM] EA先生: sth
[3:57:36 AM] EA先生: sfh
[3:57:36 AM] EA先生: sft
[3:57:43 AM] EA先生: this reminds me
[3:57:46 AM] EA先生: I am
[3:57:49 AM] EA先生: 99.9% certain
[3:57:58 AM] EA先生: that
[3:58:20 AM] EA先生: stun carries over during a grab if you regrab out of throw stun
[3:58:25 AM] EA先生: like
[3:58:31 AM] EA先生: I vaguely remember confirming it in a test
[3:58:34 AM] EA先生: anyway
[3:58:35 AM] EA先生: the point is
[3:58:43 AM] EA先生: we should see if this affects mashability at all
[3:58:51 AM] DeLux: oh ****
[3:58:56 AM] DeLux: can you copy and paste that idea
[3:58:57 AM] DeLux: in the IC thread
[3:59:02 AM] DeLux: IC panel thread
[3:59:04 AM] DeLux: to remember to test it
[3:59:05 AM] EA先生: in lab?
[3:59:10 AM] EA先生: ok
[3:59:10 AM] DeLux: yeah
[3:59:22 AM] EA先生: I need to get around to posting all my other tasks
[3:59:37 AM] EA先生: which I havent written all of them down
[3:59:39 AM] EA先生: but mh
[3:59:46 AM] DeLux: lol
[3:59:51 AM] DeLux: I'm not sure how to go about testing
[3:59:53 AM] DeLux: the fthrow window
[3:59:54 AM] DeLux: for regrab
[4:00:23 AM] DeLux: but I wonder if we can derive a formula
[4:00:24 AM] DeLux: for regrab window
[4:00:32 AM] DeLux: based on the knockback growth rates
[4:00:34 AM] EA先生: I doubt it
[4:00:51 AM] EA先生: we could probably calculate maximums
[4:00:57 AM] EA先生: but not actual windows
[4:10:04 AM] EA先生: man
[4:10:15 AM] EA先生: the whole theory behind chaingrabbing in general
[4:10:17 AM] EA先生: is so complex
[4:10:20 AM] DeLux: lol
[4:10:20 AM] EA先生: it's amazing
[4:10:27 AM] EA先生: I mean
[4:10:35 AM] DeLux: shall we put a wager in
[4:10:35 AM] EA先生: maybe complex is slightly off
[4:10:37 AM] EA先生: deep?
[4:10:41 AM] DeLux: that nobody will believe me?
[4:10:48 AM] EA先生: about the windows?
[4:10:51 AM] EA先生: lol
[4:10:51 AM] DeLux: yeah
[4:11:03 AM] EA先生: I think
[4:11:09 AM] EA先生: they will easily believe the lower percent ones
[4:11:29 AM] EA先生: but if you actually confirm that some characters cannot be infinited
[4:11:35 AM] EA先生: then people *might* not believe you
[4:11:40 AM] EA先生: imo
[4:11:44 AM] DeLux: oh
[4:11:47 AM] DeLux: well the one to test
[4:11:49 AM] DeLux: would be jiggly puff
[4:11:53 AM] DeLux: since she's the lightest
[4:11:56 AM] DeLux: based on my theory
[4:11:57 AM] EA先生: haha
[4:13:31 AM] EA先生: read ic panel
[4:13:35 AM] EA先生: i am crazy
[4:13:36 AM] EA先生: >:
[4:15:15 AM] DeLux: lol
[4:15:18 AM] DeLux: YOU
[4:15:20 AM] DeLux: can have that project
[4:15:21 AM] DeLux: LOL
[4:15:26 AM] DeLux: but based on observation
[4:15:31 AM] DeLux: Jiggly puff might not be an infinite
[4:15:50 AM] EA先生: lol
[4:15:55 AM] EA先生: yeah
[4:17:40 AM] EA先生: it might be better if we don't have people who have preconcieved notions about ICs mechanics/possibilities and show no interest in educating themselves.
[4:17:49 AM] DeLux: lol
[4:17:51 AM | Edited 4:17:56 AM] EA先生: //shameless hatin'
[4:19:19 AM] EA先生: ALSO
[4:19:20 AM] EA先生: sdrkjghbtdkgsdt
[4:19:22 AM] EA先生: honestly
[4:21:40 AM] DeLux: ok
[4:21:41 AM] DeLux: just fyi
[4:21:42 AM] DeLux: at 999
[4:21:53 AM] DeLux: Jiggly puff is not regrabble
[4:21:54 AM] DeLux: via dthrow
[4:21:59 AM] EA先生: haha
[4:22:01 AM] DeLux: like the frame jump is absurd
[4:22:01 AM] DeLux: lol
[4:22:09 AM] DeLux: she's above the BF platform
[4:22:11 AM] EA先生: now test fthrow and bthrow
[4:22:13 AM] EA先生: I am
[4:22:14 AM] DeLux: by frame 1 of regrab window
[4:22:16 AM] EA先生: almost certain
[4:22:20 AM] EA先生: fthrow is infinite
[4:22:36 AM] EA先生: maybe not bthrow
[4:22:42 AM] EA先生: but I think bthrow would come close
[4:22:58 AM] EA先生: lol jiggs
[4:23:26 AM] DeLux: on fthrow
[4:23:29 AM] DeLux: frame 1 of the grab window
[4:23:38 AM] DeLux: she's above Nana's head for sure
[4:23:50 AM] DeLux: like the very bottom of her is a pixel or two above Nana
[4:23:57 AM] DeLux: therefore
[4:23:59 AM] DeLux: not an infinite
[4:24:05 AM] EA先生: there's a huge vertical grabbox tho.
[4:24:12 AM] DeLux: not according
[4:24:16 AM] DeLux: to the bubbles
[4:24:19 AM] DeLux: are the bubbles wrong?
[4:24:32 AM] EA先生: no but
[4:24:35 AM] EA先生: but
[4:24:36 AM] EA先生: but
[4:24:44 AM] EA先生: her hurtbox might be bigger than you think
[4:25:08 AM] EA先生: actually maybe they all are just based on how we always thought the vertical grab was huge
[4:25:44 AM] DeLux: oh
[4:25:57 AM] DeLux: yeah the hurtbox might say otherwise
[4:31:05 AM] DeLux: hold on
[4:31:09 AM] DeLux: let me get my test setup now

TLDR: The heavier the character, the window for regrabbing remains larger for a longer period of time.

Derived from Bowser being an infinite and Jiggs not being one

 

[DeLux]

Updated Panel Info, please read Nathaniel and Guest

 

[Sieguest]

Definitely working on the revised mashing formula. I can do some work with desync spacing data. I'll be thinking about what should go into the STL as ideas hit me.

 

[DeLux]

In light of Hylian and GIMR both declining invitations, do you feel we should recruit one more IC to the panel?

 

[Sieguest]

"Is there one more IC to recruit?" is the real question be asked... if you can find someone willing to put some time in then by all means shoot for one more.

 

[DeLux]

But who will answer the call of destiny? And whose destiny shall we call?

 

[Sieguest]

After dealing with the revised mashing formula for a little while I came up with what will accurately display the information. The expression "8x+n" will work perfectly; with "x" being the amount of mashing inputs and n being the amount of frames having passed with time.

I had thought of this formula some time before, but I was trying to figure whether there would be a way to display the information as a geometric and/or power series. Then I figured out why I couldn't do either. The nature of the variables in the formula is what inhibits an accurate formula from being crafted other than the formula I have proposed above. At any time "n", "n" may be infinitely greater than "x" but "x" must follow the rule "x<=2n". No other conventional forms of equation building can really capture that scope. The fact that the variables behave this way actually lends itself to just adding a variable to an existing equation and then applying limiting rules to it as I did above.

This actually checks out as well. With the passage of one frame, (n=1) the player can input up to two struggle inputs (x=[0,2]) adding either 0, 8, or 16 frames to the one frame of time passage. This mean that at the least 1 frame is put towards mashing out and at the most 17 frames can be put towards mashing out with an intermediate value being 9 frames put towards mashing out. You can put in corresponding values into the formula and attain identical results. This relationship holds true at any value of "n" provided that you stay within the parameters mentioned above (those parameters being established from the game mechanics). The frames put toward mashing will always change by either 1, 9, or 17 for any one frame passing period.

TL;DR: The revised mashing formula should be "8x+n" because it is the only formula that can display the information accurately given the relationship of the variables.

EDIT: http://www.mediafire.com/?uw7ae6n0u105fiv

EDIT2: I'm actually adding onto it... again. Adding what frame a player would mash out on (relative to the frame they got grabbed). Same link will go to a different document tomorrow.

 

[DeLux]

Guest, I got a math project for you.

Situation:

Nana Dthrow > Popo Regrab > Nana Shield Buffer

If you buffer a jump cancel usmash from Nana's shield buffer, you can get an usmash in without grab break. You can also dsmash, but it's 2 frames longer to IASA because you have to wait for shield drop + dsmash frames.

Unfortunately, there is an incidental pummel from Popo when you input the smash attack. But by in large, if you input the dthrow at some point during the dsmash animation of Nana, she'll be able to regrab.

What I want to know is how many frames there will be to mash for each character's dthrow animation. As well as when we can guarantee that they won't grab break based on mashing at certain percents. We'll know when we're on the right track if lights can mash out later than heavies based on the frame data.