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Guide Ice Climber Match Up Guide

choknater

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choknater
haha yes, they are :)

i recently discovered that my blizzblock tactic is not unbeatable against marth:

marth can counter blizzard
 

Fly_Amanita

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You should be able to roll around the counter and dsmash/grab Marth if he does that; it's probably a good trade most of the time.
 

choknater

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hm interesting. sounds like i need time to save nana after i punish him though, if his % is low i should probably like uthrow him or something.
 

Fly_Amanita

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Yeah, uthrow would probably be the best option if you choose to grab. Dthrow -> stuff could also work, although it's a little riskier. At higher percentages, dsmash would likely be the better option.

Oh, if you roll behind the Marth after he counters and run up to him, almost everybody would roll or spot-dodge, so you could just wait for that and go for a different punishment, although I don't think that would be necessary since I bet you could get him every time before the lag from the counter ends.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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can't you dthrow pseudo combo marth? i only fiddle with ICs but im pretty sure at super low % you can regrab the DI away and after that you can shffl nair and stuff. Uthrow is good, too, though cause marth is horrible at hitting things below him and ICs are good at hitting things above them

edit-
Oh, if you roll behind the Marth after he counters and run up to him, almost everybody would roll or spot-dodge
i disagree with this logic
 

choknater

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lol well, i like the option of rolling after nana blizzard because marth is generally just bad against people behind him anyway. thanks fly, that instantly solved my problem LOL.

edit: lol fly, peepee and i are currently discussing the falco matchup in his thread if u wanna check it out. ur opinions differ from mine usually
 

Kyu Puff

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What makes d-throw risky? You can regrab at ~0%, and n-air/u-air or dash attack at mid percents depending on di. You can also b-throw -> u-air as a mix-up, since most Marths tend to jump when you run at them after the b-throw.
 

Fly_Amanita

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i disagree with this logic
I suppose it could be a regional difference, but people in SoCal are definitely very likely to spot dodge or roll if it looks like you just might be able to grab them before they escape lag.

What makes d-throw risky?
My main concern is that if Marth breaks out of the combo, then he could regain momentum while Nana is still separated from you.
 

Binx

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what is this blizblock trick your talking about, is it a popo block into nana blizard or something?

Also tilts are completely **** vs spacies. You can get so many forward tilt into tech chases its not even funny, I love being aggressive with it too because it has a surprising amount of shield stun most people don't know the timing of, kind of how luigi's ftilt is suprisingly safe on shields.

Wavedash up angled ftilts is one of my favorite approaches against fox, it counters most short hop out of shield options. It loses to full jump options but then you can shield and hopefully not be in a bad position, or you can start mixing in uairs. If you stop them from jumping you can use blind grabs in this situation, risky but big payoffs.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I suppose it could be a regional difference, but people in SoCal are definitely very likely to spot dodge or roll if it looks like you just might be able to grab them before they escape lag.
but those aren't the options they are limited too... if you know the player will do that, sure do it, but they also have the option to just fsmash you (or any other attack) if they think you'll be waiting for the lag
 

Fly_Amanita

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Those aren't the only options they're limited to, but they're the ones most people will go for when it looks like an IC is about to grab them. I neglected to mention it, but the way an IC usually waits for somebody to do something like that is to sit in a shield and wavedash OoS in reaction to what the opponent does, so fsmash probably wouldn't work. Turn around -> grab would, though. Anyways, if it is the case that ICs can't always grab before the counter ends, which I think they can, then you just have another typical intransitive scenario (ICs' grab > Marth's something > ICs' wait > Marth's spot-dodge/roll > ICs' grab).
 

Binx

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I think most of the match up stuff is still current, but if anyone wants to contest that, or add some things to specific match ups that'd be awesome, I welcome complete rewrites and all, I dont have tons of time but I check in here every now and again and I will be more than happy to edit in some details.
 

Kyu Puff

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Maybe add to the part about shines that if you DI away, the stun ends before Fox can hit you again, so if he tries to follow it up you can punish him. If you're close to the edge of the stage, you can grab the ledge either if you crouch cancel the shine or fastfall right as you tumble off the stage. The latter can be pretty dangerous, though, because if you miss the timing you're in a terrible position.

I would also remove the part about using desynched blizzard to edgeguard. Even if the Fox doesn't sweetspot, it doesn't consistently lead into anything because they can SDI it and end up grabbing the ledge or something.

Maybe to make this more complete, we can add sections for every character on edgeguarding, comboing, grab game, etc.
 

Binx

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Thanks Kyu update applied. Hey wobbles is there anything else about the fox match up you'd like to add? Also if you ever get to that peach write up I can link the thread in the peach section on here or just copy paste it with a link to yours.
 

Smasher89

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Countering desynch'd blizzard sounds very risky, Nana blizzard, popo waveshield towards marth, if counter, it's probably very punishable by Popo. Might have some wierd timing to WD OoS when counter hits the shield but I think even if counter hits, doesn't it still got that mayor lag afterwards?
 

Wobbles

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Okay, so I decided to do a bit of elaboration on my thought process when fighting Falcon. I get to play Darkrain a lot and I've definitely learned a lot about the matchup.

First off, let's establish that this matchup is 95% about movement and commitment. Falcon can pressure you hard from the majority of spacing positions because he has:

--a speed advantage
--high shield-stun aerials, so you can't shield grab him unless he screws up big time
--a short hop that goes over a lot of your best stuff
--an amazing grab game against ICs! Lots of IC and CF players don't know that his throws have hitboxes and invincibility frames that wreck the ICs anti-grab game.

Meanwhile, ICs must commit heavily to all their actions in advance. Even a simple wavedash has a large commitment to it, because of the distance you travel and the landfallspecial lag.

This means that you have to be VERY cautious about where you maintain your distance and what you do to maintain that distance.

It's also worth mentioning that, because Melee is such a fast paced game, and Falcon is one of its fastest characters, these zones shift CONSTANTLY. Your distance will fluctuate dramatically over the course of a few seconds. Controlling these zones (particularly with ICs, particularly against Falcon) is anything but an exact science. I'm gonna try and elaborate on the tools you have to achieve this, however, and hopefully it will be a bit clearer what the hell I'm talking about.

These images are meant to illustrate some of the ideal places you can position yourself while fighting against Falcon.



This is your target distance from Falcon.



If he attempts to do a slow short-hopped knee, it will miss; same with d-air, obviously. If he does an aerial from a dash at this distance, it will go straight over your head, which means you can easily u-tilt or f-smash him out of it. You are also at a distance where you can react to Raptor Boost, and any dashing shenanigans he does to make the distance better for himself take a relatively long time. If he dashes away, you can dash towards him and then re-establish distance control with a wavedash.

At this distance, shorter wavedashes are your friend. You cannot afford to go in too deep or you risk running into a zone where you are very weak. Likewise, if you retreat too far, you move to a zone where he can dash-dance freely to choose the spacing of his aerials. He'll also be in a position where he can start aiming his dashing aerials without going over your head.



For instance, a position like this. Right now you have no pressure options on Falcon, but he can still pressure you. At a distance like this your best bet is to stand perfectly still. Don't dash, and don't wavedash. If he tries to tip his aerials you can retreat with a dash-dance into a potential grab or dash-attack. If you're committed to a wavedash or a dash already though, then he has a major advantage.



This is another location you generally want to avoid. He has jabs, tilts, short-hopped aerials that he can control the spacing on, and if you commit to anything he has the option of hitting you with Raptor Boost. The only time you want to be at this distance (assuming you're not actually in the process of hitting him or something) is if you're facing backwards; your b-air is a really good answer to many of his shenanigans; full-jumping and b-airing immediately, for instance, lets you hit him out of his short-hopped aerials if you time it right.

In general though, you don't want to be here! Especially since you have to be careful about getting out. His dashing SHFFLs can easily cross you up... or if you wavedash away, you're usually at prime spacing to eat a d-air or knee. This is just a rough location to be in during normal maneuvering.

*

Does anybody find this kind of thing helpful or informative? Sometimes when I'm playing I start seeing the match as a kind of battle of negative space and distance, and if I get into the right mental state I feel like I see and control these kinds of zones much better. I wanted to put it into words (and pictures) exactly why, but since matches are so fluid and fast-paced I don't know if this will be of help to anyone.
 

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Wobbles it was a cool post. I'm not sure if many people will get much out of it (those who understand it can semi-easily find this out themselves and might prefer to; those who don't understand it might have a better chance of picking up on it and using it in game) but it is definitely a good post.
 

Wobbles

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If anybody who actually knows the answer to this riddle tells KK I will infract you.

He must solve it alone.
 

Binx

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I know what it is, suprising the move does that much damage, also I updated the from wobbles post with a link to that awesome falcon information. Oh and detailed zoning info is absolutely one of my favorite things to know. Its more helpful to good players than to bad but not everyone has time or insight to notice it. So thank you wobbles, on a side note I do have some confirmed videos that should be up when the guy who owns the set up has time, im counting on you guys to make me better =D
 

Smasher89

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The IC ditto is probably the least developed matchup, since dsmash is soo good maybe more isn't needed XD, 2vs1 makes iceblock very dangerous though...
 

ChivalRuse

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D-smash is a such a powerful tool in the ditto that I feel like the best strategies usually center around how to land/avoid getting hit by it.
 

choknater

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haha it's pretty good, but mostly cuz it's the strongest and fastest separating tool, which is a move that most chars try to find vs ic's

i feel like a few things should be focused on in order to have the advantage:
1. separation and 2v1 situations
2. being underneath the other ic
3. ground footsies

the last part is soooo hard. spacing is so erratic, and i'm sure there are WAYS to avoid random wd-in dsmashes or wd jabs/grabs but it's hard cuz it's so fast.
 

Fly_Amanita

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I don't think dsmash is all that great in the ditto. It's good in close range, but ICs don't tend to spend a lot of time next to each other, and when they are near each other, grabs are typically way better.
 

Wobbles

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Yeah, generally I prefer tilts and grabs to d-smashes, unless my goal is to prevent re-sync with Nana.
 

Wobbles

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choknater: b-throw is your friend. Has a really good throw hitbox for splitting them up. Then you just apply frontal pressure to the Popo until Nana comes near you.
 
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