Guide Ice Climber Match Up Guide

[Dogysamich]

2 questions,

1) what is this "ledge chaingrab"
2) if a character can easily get out of d.throw d.air, how are they supposed to get out. (I typed that right, i dont think i know how to get out of d.throw d.air if i'm supposed to)

 

[Binx]

1) Nana always throws towards a ledge if you are very close, you can use this knowledge to easy predict which throw she will use and regrab them out of it, it basically works like the infinite brawl regrab that ICs have.

2) Usually they simply hold away from you on the stick (after this they have options, shine, buffer a roll, jab, jump), some characters like captain falcon can smash DI to make it more difficult to regrab them but can still be chain thrown.

 

[Wobbles]

Fun anecdote about d-throw d-air and the LCG; on one occasion during the set I grabbed at the ledge but I was facing inwards. I reverse d-throw d-aired then LCG'ed for the finish It was wonderful.

Dogy: Take a Peach into training mode and usher her over to the side of the stage. Grab, down-throw, and try to time another grab so Nana catches Peach before she can bounce away. Nana will then forward-throw; walk forward a bit and grab right after she throws and you should catch Peach again. Rinse and repeat.

This is where things get tricky; when you catch Peach (any character, actually) all the way at the edge of the level, if you use d-throw Nana won't be able to connect with up-smash. In this case, have Nana charge up-smash and do the following:

1) Release the smash
2) Immediately after (almost simultaneously) use up-throw. This will work every time, guaranteed.

The up-smash interrupts the throw, meaning they can't DI away and it always connects. This also means that you don't get up-throw damage, so it doesn't KO quite as early, which is a bit of a trade. On a stage like Yoshi's Story with Peach at 70 percent, however, a fully charged u-smash will KO her anyhow.

 

[Binx]

Hey Wobbles, do you have some vids by any chance? I'd love to see this stuff.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

This is where things get tricky; when you catch Peach (any character, actually) all the way at the edge of the level, if you use d-throw Nana won't be able to connect with up-smash. In this case, have Nana charge up-smash and do the following:

1) Release the smash
2) Immediately after (almost simultaneously) use up-throw. This will work every time, guaranteed.

The up-smash interrupts the throw, meaning they can't DI away and it always connects. This also means that you don't get up-throw damage, so it doesn't KO quite as early, which is a bit of a trade. On a stage like Yoshi's Story with Peach at 70 percent, however, a fully charged u-smash will KO her anyhow.

Is there any difference between using bthrow and uthrow for #2? I always do release smash -> bthrow because I find it easier.

 

[Finch]

I need Marth tips. I've been playing against QDVS for months and I can at least do decently or see what I'm doing wrong against most of his characters but against his marth I am clueless. He just spaces jabs and tilts and fairs and dairs against me until I'm dead and I can't figure out what my options are if he doesn't mess up because nothing seems punishable.

 

[Binx]

Against Marth, his jabs are unpunishable from certain ranges, his fair is unpunishable unless he DI's toward you, if he does that then it is punishable with really tight timing with a dash dance grab. His dtilt can be punished with a fair but if you call it wrong you get fair'd or grabbed or utilted. His forward smash is always punishable, off your shield with a WD, or off a wiff the same way, his forward tilt can't be punished unless you shield it at very close ranges.

Against Marth the ONLY way I've found to really beat them even occasionally, and believe me its HARD (this match will make you a really good Ice Climber player even if you lose) is to get into a situation where they are closer to an edge than you and you have the middle of the stage, if you can get in this position then you can make Marth approach you a little bit and it opens up damage, other than that he is untouchable, beat his full jumps with uairs, also hit with uairs if he is ever on a platform.

For the love of christ stay below him at all costs, don't get knocked off the edge cause you can't recover against a good Marth, keep trying and mixing up your recovery, pray he messes up and make sure you get some damage off afterwards.

This is the only match that I believe positioning is this important, because you can't hurt Marth if he doesn't approach you need to be able to pressure him into attacking, Chu likes to bait with auto canceled uairs, a good option. If you find yourself in a desynch I like to pult Nana but not fair, if just the tip of her blizzard hits and they don't expect it you can open up a window to some damage, blizzard outranges Marth. When I am at the edge of the stage and Marth is pressuring me I like to do a short hop blizzard with both climbers, I've still yet to be killed for doing this and it sometimes gets them to give you a few more pixels of room afterwards while they think, I don't overuse this and I don't know how it can be punished because I've always caught my opponents by surprise with this, even my closest friends, I would love to hear some stories on this being used lemme know if it's effective for you.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I've seen Chu fulljump f-air on platforms vs. Peach. I'm assuming it's because she doesn't have any reliable ways to punish platform camping (even though it's also a dangerous position for ICs). Usually she'll fulljump n-air, or fulljump a float in front of the platform. Occasionally she'll pull a turnip, but if you react fast enough you can punish her for it. Sometimes she'll waveland onto the platform and d-smash, in which case you should probably run away, but f-air can beat that also.

Wobbles, please make more huge amazing posts like that.

Fun anecdote about d-throw d-air and the LCG; on one occasion during the set I grabbed at the ledge but I was facing inwards. I reverse d-throw d-aired then LCG'ed for the finish It was wonderful.

On the LCG -- When Nana f-throws, I usually dash grab because it's the easiest thing to time. Sometimes I've been able to regrab without moving at all. I know that it's an infinite on Bowser and DK, rarely I've been able to do it on Marth, and it could even work on other characters. The timing is a little too difficult to make it worth learning.

This is where things get tricky; when you catch Peach (any character, actually) all the way at the edge of the level, if you use d-throw Nana won't be able to connect with up-smash. In this case, have Nana charge up-smash and do the following...

Is this why I can never d-throw u-smash Pikachu?


Edit --

I don't find Marth to be THAT difficult. Wobbles' advice in the Marth section is really useful; you simply have to know what counters what. (I won't repeat what's already been mentioned.) When Marth shorthops, try waveshielding in to limit his options. If he attacks, you can easily expect n-air or falling f-air. In the case of falling f-air, you can either time a shieldgrab, or sh f-air out of shield, countering a d-tilt or grab.

Whenever you manage to land a grab on him -- and can't infinite for whatever reason -- use a d-throw d-air to test whether his DI is correct (upwards or away), and if it is, use d-throw reverse d-air u-tilt. It works perfectly. :D

Zoning is important in any match-up. For example, against Fox you want to stay in the middle of the stage so that his shine doesn't push you off the ledge. If you're in Fox's range, excessively lightshield because he can't realistically shield pressure you at all and his shine will never shieldpoke.

Reverse d-air negates Fox's escape DI; mix it up with the normal d-throw d-air and you can still chaingrab him to death.

 

[Binx]

Wobbles I just want to thank you for the detailed posts, I know how much effort and time it takes to post like that and I really appreciate it.

Anyways I updated Peach with Wobble's info like I stated, and I re-did my advice on Marth, then i re-read wobble's old advice and its very similar, so obviously I learned a lot from this guide haha.

 

[Wobbles]

Oh, something to keep in mind for dealing with Mario's short hop aerials. I just remembered this and felt like posting... it also keeps me away from inconvenient homework. Hooray.

When Mario short hops with his f-air, it creates massive shield pressure; spaced well, it creates this obnoxious wall that can be incredibly difficult to play through. However, you have a very simple answer for hitting him out of his short hop, and that's up-angled f-tilt. Wavedash in with it and you'll interrupt the windup of his f-air; you can probably tilt him on reflex, in fact.

I learned that during my match against Green Mario at the big Georgia tournament last year; unfortunately, he was completely outplaying me in every other area of the match so I got destroyed regardless.

 

[LuCKy]

hey wobbles. . . come to genesis lol n bring ur cool penguin :D

 

[Wobbles]

I fully intend to make it to Genesis if I can... and of course I'll bring the penguin.

 

[Nintendude]

IC dittos

Don't remind me >_>
lawl

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Is there a (inescapeable) chaingrab on peach? (except the ledge chaingrab)

 

[Binx]

No, only the ledge chaingrab works on peach, other than that its just smashes.

 

[Wobbles]

D-throw d-air can work as well, but it can be escaped. If you mix it up with grab-smashes and re-grabs, however, you can sneak it in more often than you should. The important thing is not to use it with an obvious rhythm, otherwise she'll just DI out of it.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Doesn't Dthrow reverse Dair work, too? I used it in a tourney. I guess he just didn't expect it.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Doesn't Dthrow reverse Dair work, too? I used it in a tourney. I guess he just didn't expect it.

She can escape, but usually with DI up, which you can punish with either u-tilt or u-air.

 

[Binx]

I guess grab mix ups are important I just meant that it's escapable. I've never tried to reverse dair a peach, can that really work?

Does anyone every dthrow spike into tech chases? thats one of my favorites vs Marth

 

[pockyD]

reverse dair is escapable with sdi up i believe

peach is dumbbbbb

 

[Binx]

someone should do a write up for some more characters, how about the other 2 pokemon, or GnW.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Punishing a Missed Rest

Face jigglypuff backwards and charge an up-smash. The back of the hitbox extends far enough to hit her off the ground. Fully charged u-smash does less damage than f-smash, but might be the correct choice depending on the stage and her percentage. If you're feeling lucky, you can spotdodge -> charge u-smash -> fulljump belay as Nana releases the charge. Of course it's easily thrown off by DI, and I recommend sticking to the first option.

The best punishing option is the following. Desynch and have Nana charge either an f-smash or d-smash. Near the end of the charge, release the smash and immediately dash grab with Popo. After that you can blizzard, wobble, choknater combo, d-throw u-smash, or whatever. Grab combos deal more damage than charging a smash, and the free smash at the beginning is extra damage to help you get the kill or keep her in a grab longer.

 

[Binx]

hmm, interesting, forward smash to regrab on jiggs, I'll have to try that someday lol. I'll add it to the jiggs tips

 

[S.D]

Reverse Dair can be SDI'd upward by most of the cast to escape. Ice Climbers haven't got a legitimate chain on much of anybody with proper DI sadly, but when you mix it in with other options like smashes, nana regrabs etc you can get the occasional chain.

 

[Kyu Puff]

You should still be able to take significant chunks of damage with every grab, even if they know how to DI correctly. Mess with their DI; force them to survival DI, listen for mashing, chainthrow quickly after the first grab before they have a chance to react. It shouldn't be occasional as much as it is calculated.

Reverse d-air is useful on a lot of characters (sometimes shorthopping the d-air helps). Inescapable against Ganon/Falcon, etc. Reverse d-air works on Fox/Falco as well, though I haven't tested every kind of DI yet. If Marth or Peach (and probably many others) DIs upwards, follow it up with u-tilt and then continue to chase with u-airs from there.

D-throw and d-throw d-smash are occasionally inescapable, I wish we had percentages for those.

 

[Binx]

What kinds of throw mix ups do you guys use vs Fox's and Marth? Can Marth pretty easily get out of all *chain throws* on reaction? obviously I know there aren't any guaranteed, but can you trick their DI and get regrabs without being fair'd?

 

[embracethe12]

I've been testing this throw that involves you doing a forward throw into nana dash attacking. it sends marth into the air setting up for an up air/f air or gives enough time for you to get directly under him allowing more things to do if he decides to di with your throw.

it works for fox, but it is the same principle as just doing an upthrow to dash attacks.

could someone else help verify is this is effective vs marth?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

dude i did that first 2 months ago in grab combos thread it works great for every one at about 20-40% and it can work even at 999% , i asked other people to try it to

 

[embracethe12]

well of course it works, it's simple desync that allows you to take advantage of the hitlag with popo as your nana makes the dash attack.

i'm asking about its effectiveness and when the %'s get too high for it to be useful anymore.

 

[Binx]

why fthrow dash attack, why not dthrow upsmash?

more hitstun, more damage, less chance for them to DI it away I'm pretty sure, unless you can regrab off the dash attack, then its good at low enough damages.

 

[embracethe12]

low percents you see people di'ing away so from 0 % a dash attack usually can combo to another dash attack

you're right about dthrow upsmash, i was just listing the dash attack as a mixup =P

 

[Kyu Puff]

Marth isn't so much about grab mix-ups as it is about reading DI. If he typically DIs upwards (common), use d-throw -> reverse sh d-air -> u-tilt, which easily sets up for u-airs or b-air at low to mid percentages. If he DIs away, d-throw -> d-air -> dash attack can work, but often launching him off the stage does the job.

Edgehog. The regular ledge get-up is good for getting invincibility during Marth's up+B, and the edgehog should usually make him aim for the stage. After you get onto the ledge safely, d-smash to launch him back off. If you can somehow get Nana to teeter as you edgehog you can use Popo's ledge stall for extra invincibility.

A survival DI mix-up on Marth -- shorthop or fulljump -> b-air (Popo will b-throw simultaneously, no timing required). The one advantage it has over u-throw f-smash is that it happens quickly and gives him no reaction time. It also works on spacies.

Binx, I remember you saying that you don't like u-throw on spacies. It's actually a reliable option on open stages (especially when Nana is separated) because they'll almost always be DIing away -- this chains perfectly into dash attack and Fox/Falco can't jump out, though any other fastfaller can.

D-throw -> u-smash -> foxtrot forward to dash attack (on Fox at low %s). Chu does this a lot in his recent videos.

Tomorrow I'm probably gonna test out reverse d-air on spacies, and hopefully I'll bring back good news.

 

[Binx]

Uthrow is okay when your on FD against Fox and Falco, but I still find at most percentages I get more damage off a back throw or down throw tech chase. I play my solo popo sort of like a janky falcon against fast fallers I do back throw to utilts to regrabs, or downthrow to double wavedash if I think they will tech away to regrabs, or back throw jab reset regrab off the edge, into whatever.

If nana is seperated I like to throw towards an edge and then go at them with an uair or something if I miss the tech, since most people jump reflexively to avoid the grab they fear at the moment.

I have more trouble vs semi-floaties, like Marth or Peach. I was just curious if you could trick Marth into regrabs, I can get them into the air and uair or predict fairs and bair, or dash attack or whatever, but I want more options to squeeze damage out of grabs.

 

[Binx]

Guys I need help with this, I want to find videos (preferably recent ones, vs each character demonstrating how the match should be played) I don't care if the IC wins as long as he played it well and demonstrated materials from the match up thread.

If you see them doing some highly effective tactics in the video that aren't discussed in the match up, or if you see materials in the match up thread being gotten around quite easily, then perhaps it needs to be updated. I would prefer the videos to be short, shot on various stages, and of top Ice Climber pros only, so we are shooting for Wobbles, Chu, and anyone else you guys can think of that is a really good IC player, I don't see many good vids that aren't of these two players so if you guys can find them thats awesome. Vids older than 2 years old may not be used unless the metagame of both characters has progressed a relatively small amount since then.

Thanks everyone, I am going to go start on Marth and Peach right now since those are the trouble match ups for me.

EDIT: Here is a sample of the new Vids section
This is currently right above tips in our Marth section.

Vids:

• Chu Dat vs M2K - FD @ Smashtality III 2.1
• Chu Dat vs M2K - PS @ Smashtality III 2.2
• Chu Dat vs M2K - PS @ Smashtality III 1.1

Vids:

• Wobbles vs Cort - YS @ 11 months ago 2
• Wobbles vs Xelic - BF @ Final Smash 5 1.4
• Wobbles vs Xelic - BF @ Final Smash 5 1.2
  
  Notice how Wobbles controls the Peach by using platforms, the same way Marth or Fox would do to us, also note the creative use of his side b squall hammer move. Also note how simple bairs and forward smashes are more effective than trying to go for grabs in this match up, there isn't much you can do out of a grab, a missed grab has 30-40 frames of punishable lag, pretty much the same as a smash, only its harder to hit with against peach.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Chu vs Tope (starts at around 5:30) - DL64
Chu vs Tope - Brinstar

Chu might be rusty in these vids from Brawl, but it's a good example of how patient you need to be against Peach.

Wobbles vs Xelic - DL64

Backs up Wobbles' advice on Peach. Wobbles vs Cort at SCC was also good.

 

[Binx]

Awesome, added wobs vs xel 1.5 for great justice, its an awesome match and its hard to believe I looked over it, also the commentary is awesome, "don't get grabbed and you should **** them", "wtf this isn't brawl"

Lets get some more characters =)

I think 3/4 vids is plenty for most people.

 

[S.D]

The Marth matchup involves a lot of luck IMO. Basically Marth shouldn't lose if he sticks to spacing fair, dtilt and ftilt as this makes him next to untouchable for Icies. However most players won't follow this pattern for a full match and whenever they stray is when you need to take advantage.

You'll notice that in those Chu vs M2K matches, Chu was powerless when M2K spaced properly and made proper use of Fair. It takes some very well spaced and oftentimes lucky smashes to get inside Marth, which is a very hit and miss strategy. Chu had the most success when he was able to keep Marth above him with uair, usmash and bair. Marth has little priority below him which is something Icies must exploit in the match up. For this reason we need to get Marth in the air, abuse uair and try to get him without a jump to keep him up there. Once he gets close enough to the graoun he can just swat away your uairs with fair.

Sadly once Marth realises all he has to do is hold up and spam jump none of your chaingrabs will work, except the ledge infinite. Once the Marth player begins to do this use grab comnbos that send him up where you have one of your few advantages. As Chu showed, jabbing into grabs and smashes is very effective against Marth. Sometimes dash attack can get through Marth's fair as it has a highish hitbox that can get to Marth before he uses his fair. This pops him up too for more u air ****.

Solo climber can be surprisingly effective in this match too. As Marth isn't so focused on not being grabbed. Often you will get a lot of grabs solo, which can lead into smashes and aerials that combo nicely.

The other big chance you have to beat Marth is when he is baited by Nana. Chu punished M2K for attacking Nana and not focusing on Popo. You have to make sure that you make the most of these opportunities as they will often go off stage to finish Nana which can set up an edgeguard for you or finish her with a f smash which you can punish.

All in all if Marth plays properly the match is **** tough but not impossible. In my experience a few good smashes makes all the difference but it can be very frustrating trying to get inside Marth. Dashdancing into wavesmashes can also be your best friend.

Anyway good thread keep the vids rolling.

 

[Binx]

So I've decided I want to write up Link, I don't have a lot of match up experience and most of the vids I have seen vs Link are very old.

So I would like your help on this one,

Basically Link wants to use projectiles to throw you off guard while he eats up your shield with spaced nairs and fairs.

When above him, his uair eats through everything.

When below him I believe his dair beats everything, but its slow so we should be able to uair or punish it from shield or by just dodging.

From the sides when he is on the ground he's got nothing threatening.

From the air vs our bair he has nothing threatening, from the air with us facing front we've probably got nothing cause his nair has enough range to avoid most if not all of our attacks.

He is slow on the ground and the air, and I have trouble imagining and fantastic edgeguard or combos vs ICs.

I'm really thinking this match is about shield camping for a tiny mistake and just killing him out of the grab, if I remember right he can't even smash DI out of the dair chain throw.

When I get back home later I'll take whatever imput I get here plus some Vids I'll watch and write up some strategies, the Link boards really only complain about our grabs, so I wasn't able to get a lot of imput. (I always go to the enemy's character boards first for good match up data)

 

[Binx]

Okay so Link is done basically, if anyone knows where some good high quality vids for this match up would be I can add them, it seems pretty straight forward.

So here is whats left

Donkey Kong - I know there are good vids for this one
Roy - he has a good crouch cancel but I am pretty sure we can beat him with good fair spacing and crouch canceling his aerials
Young Link - I guess you would fight him the same as Link but they tend to jump more, so more abuse of uairs and we will get less grabs.
Pikachu - I can't even fathom what Pikachu could do in this matchup, uair OoS?
Zelda - hits like a truck, has long ranged attacks, we'd fight her like a slow Marth who can't grab or gimp
Mr. Game and Watch - Dunno
Ness - haha, but seriously no clue, I know his f-b is good against Nana, and in some situations it creates an obstacle for Popo to get around.
Bowser - I'm pretty sure wavedash jab owns this match up, hes also very easy to chain grab
Kirby - in my experience you just have to be more patient than the Kirby and it's a very easy win, unfortunately for me the last time I faced a Kirby I wasn't Patient at all, his grabs really mess with Nana for some reason.
Pichu - No range or ground speed, can't gimp, no combos that do over 10% damage, hurts himself, lightest character in the game. Can easily smash DI out of his only killing move.





Link

Watch Out For:

• Nair, it has good reach, and it comes out quick, Link can autocancel it in a full hop and throw out two of them, so just be aware of that possibility.
• Up B out of shield, not too threatening unless you are at high damage, but it hits fairly hard for its speed, if you are at a fairly low percent ~50 you can even punish this on a hit. It also semi spikes if you get hit from underneath, make sure to go high up over them when recovering or sweetspot to prevent this.
• Bombs, good links use bombs very well and in unpredictable ways, some use to to turn around and do attacks you won't expect, for edgeguarding, or for shield pressure. If Link is holding a bomb when you grab it puts a time limit on Wobbling if it's legal, and chain throws.

Don't:

• don't be distracted by projectiles, its easy to lose concentration when Link is throwing things at you, just be calm and shield/avoid them and you can wait for a good opening to attack.
• don't camp, this is one of the few matchups Ice Climbers can really be aggressive in, your OoS options vs Link decimate him. So feel free to be as aggressive as you need to be, Link doesn't have any big punishers against our little ****** buddies. And if he guesses wrong you can smash or grab him for big damage.
• try not to use Utilt or Usmash vs link, he doesn't attack from above very often and if he does his downward aerial will beat out all of your up attacks except uair, and even then only because uair is faster not because it has more priority or range.
• Try and edgehog, when he is coming in sideways, if he doesn't have to up b then he will hookshot to recover, it will knock you off ledges and its hard to punish effectively, if you can desynch an ice block and try to interrupt it then edgehog, if not just let him back on and kill him on the stage where you have the advantage anyways.

Do:

• Be aggressive with your shield, waveshield into him to throw off his spacing and l cancels, it can force bombs to explode on him, and he really doesn't have any good ways to punish it. Mix this up with wavesmash and grabs and Link is in a losing situation most of the time, when he guesses correct he only gets minimal damage, when he guesses wrong he gets destroyed.
• Uairs, if he jumps high nail him with these, what's he gonna do?
• Bair. When he nairs or bairs your shield and crosses you up, quickly short hop a bair, worse case scenario you are now shield pressuring him with autocanceled attacks that he can't effectively retaliate against, or you've just hit him for 20 damage and are chasing him towards one of the ledges.

Vids:

• Alternate275 (Link) vs. ChuDat (Ice Climbers) - FD @ Friendly 7/7/08

Tips:
from Binx

Just follow the bullets ^_^​

Do to the most recent Tier List placings we now have one more thing to compete with.

Captain Falcon's Sexy Manliness

Watch Out For:

• Manliness

Don't:

• don't try to compete with the manliness, you can't, just try and be as cute as possible and hope you win with that

Do:

• as I said above the most important thing is to be cute, desynch taunts and wacky stuff like blizzards, its the only way to show falcon your moves.

Vids:

• sorry no vids, can't be helped.

Tips:
from Binx

Good Luck fellow IC mains.​

First post has been updated with this

The purpose of this guide is to create working, effective strategies on how to deal with the trouble moves of every character in the ssbm cast.

This will be a cooperative effort between all members of the IC community. ICs aren't played enough to have discovered every tactic that we can use, as time goes on we will constantly be looking to add new effective tactics to this compendium.

If you have experience in any matchup, or trouble with any matchup then you can feel free to post a question here, how do I beat such and such move, series of moves, whatever. And on the other side of the coin feel free to answer other members questions or feel free to find the answers to your own problem moves and share them with the rest of us so we can add it.

Look at how far we have come as a community since August of 2007 when I first started this guide, we now have solid information and tips vs 16/26 members of the cast, we have all of the trouble characters covered and most of the awkward matches. I never dreamed that this guide would get so detailed and I just wanted to say I am really proud to be an Ice Climber main ^_^​

 

[S.D]

You can d throw d smash CG Link, as well as most all of the Zelda cast in the game (minus Zelda >.<)

Also Link has a super fast grab, so he can employ shield grab to f throw which is pretty hard to punish if you're landing/attacking in front of him (knocks Nana away). Try get as many grabs as possible because he has great shield options, which he may employ less if he's being grabbed a lot.