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I Would Buff Byleth

HenryXLII

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In the time I have played Byleth I have found the character to be incredibly underwhelming, and more importantly, I think they just are not fun to play. Their entire moveset has about as much synergy as inviting all three house leaders to dinner. There could be something there, but I just don't think it works.

I know it is very early to judge a character's viability. Perhaps Byleth mains will make discoveries that truly push the character. Regardless of that, I am making this thread because I think Byleth's kit has a ton of wasted potential. It could be something better, something more fun to play, and something more accessible. I want this character to have a solid identity.

In order to buff Byleth, we need to break down what the character has going for them along with how we can expand on those aspects. We also need to look at the character's weaknesses so we know what needs to be toned down, and what needs to stay by design.

Strengths
-Explosive Kill Potential
-Incredible Range
-Excellent Ledge Trapping Game
- Great Juggling Tools
-Amazing Shield Damage


Weaknesses
-Cannot Zone Against Shields
-No Grab Game
-Horrendous Mobility
-Terrible Recovery
-Weak Disadvantage State
-Loses to projectiles
-Loses to rushdown.




Buff 1: Improve Byleth's Air Mobility: The most obvious buff would be to simply make Byleth faster. While I think this buff is unlikely (we have yet to get a character speed adjustment in this game) I do think it could be done while keeping the core design philosophy in mind.

By improving Byleth's air mobility without touching their ground mobility, you give Byleth the most important tool they need to function as a zoner, the ability to position themselves. The character becomes mobile in the air, but being in the air is incredibly unsafe for them. As a result, Byleth players would have to choose when to travel by air, and when to stand their ground.

This would also improve Byleth's recovery, juggling, and disadvantage state without breaking any of these aspects. Their airspeed should not be absurd, but at the very least slightly above average, perhaps around Lucina's speed.

Buff 2: Make Side Smash and Grounded Side Special Safer On Shield: Byleth is designed to be a zoner with long ranged pokes, but in order to actually poke the opponent, Byleth has to put themselves at risk which goes against the entire point of poking. Grant it, these pokes are incredibly powerful, but Byleth should not be punished for proper spacing.

There are two options to buff these moves. Ether increasing the amount of shield stun dealt by the tip, or reducing the end lag of the moves.

For Side Smash, reducing the endlag could be risky, as it would make the move much more spammable. We don't want Byleth throwing this move out at every given moment not even fearing whiffs. So, I propose increasing the amount of shield stun the tip deals instead. That way Byleth can return to neutral upon spacing the move properly, instead of fearing a punish.

For Side Special, I think the grounded version should have less endlag, as it is a high commitment option that is currently outclassed by the aerial version on the move. there simply is not much reason to ever go for the grounded version in it's current state.

By making this change, Byleth is given a choice. Ether go for the move in the air for more range and utility at the risk of being punished easier, or go for the safer grounded version with much more limited range and less utility. Even with reduced endlag, it should be possible to still punish Byleth if the sourspot is blocked, or if the move is sidestepped.

The last change to this move is merely aesthetic. Make the tipper of the spear have Marth's tipper effect, as the current version of the move does not feel satisfying to land.

Buff 3: Give Neutral Special More Durability, Reduce the Charge of Tier 2: Byleth currently has one of the most clunky projectiles in the game, though contrary to popular belief, I think tier 1 of the Bow isn't that bad. It has kill potential, deals good shield damage, and can be great for tech chasing.

The long windup does make the move committal though, and a move with this much commitment should not lose to any small projectile that crosses it's path. Added more durability to the arrow would make it a reasonable option against projectile zoners.

As for Tier 2, this move is sadly terrible. Yes it deals amazing shield damage, but your opponent will only get hit by it if they are panicking. In the moves current state, It can be reacted to around the the point it is half charged. The opponent can then get out of the way, think of 55 different ways to punish Byleth, and then punish.

I think reducing the start up to that halfway charge point would make the move still fairly easy to avoid, but would give clever Byleth players a chance to set up traps with it.

Buff 4: Make Backthrow Kill at the Ledge: This is a simple one. It does not even have to be that powerful, but it should be killing around 140%. The character would still struggle with grabs, but would become just that much more dangerous in the corner, where Byleth is already pretty decent.

Buff 5: Increase the Bounce on Up Special's Spike: Up B is designed to be a move that is more powerful at later percents, and has the potential to be an incredibly unique combo tool. With it's current design however, the move has the opposite effect, as the spike put Byleth above their opponent, which is a terrible position for them.

The spike should at the very least put Byleth and their opponent at the same height, and should bounce the foe above Byleth once above 100%, killing at around 130-140%. This would provide Byleth with an incredibly flashy way to end a stock, and would actually reward them for landing a fairly limited command grab.

Buff 6: Give Byleth a Tea Time Taunt: Seriously Nintendo WTF.

That concludes my list. Feel free to let me know if you disagree with any changes, or have your own changes in mind.
 

KenanTheFab

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Apr 18, 2019
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Confession: When I went into training mode with Byleth for the first time I thought my controller was broken because I couldn't sprint...

...then i realised she was indeed sprinting
 

Coccinelle

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Dec 12, 2018
Messages
78
OP well summarized Byleth strengths
Her range and ability to kill very early make Byleth a scary character you don't want to mess up with
 

Sestetz

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Give the claude skin slightly darker skin, this would be a buff
 

BlackInk

Smash Lord
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Jun 16, 2019
Messages
1,368
The ground speed should be buffed to be around snakes so they could zone better and their air speed should be around or slightly below joker so they could space their aerials better and mix up their recovery more. I think this is far more important as this allows them to utilize their biggest strengths while keeping them around the slow side.

I agree with the bow change. It helps to make the projectile feel more well-realized while keeping Byleth less campy from other annoying zoners.

What’s debatable are the up-b changes. It’s not that the move itself is bad, I just think it’s weird. I feel like the opponent should be always above when the move lands from the ground and get spiked if Byleth uses the move off stage.
 
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Narigo1

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-D-tilt should be faster. They should make it frame 7 or 8.
-Make Up Special grab shields
 

SFG_Lobo

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Jan 30, 2020
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-D-tilt should be faster. They should make it frame 7 or 8.
-Make Up Special grab shields
Came to say this. B’s kit revolves around the UpB and the fact that it’s not a command grab kills a lot of it’s practicality. Make it command grab at the upswing for the yoink (after the initial ground hit).
 

link2702

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From what little I played of him, I think the biggest change he really needs is just some knockback and speed changes on some moves. The angle and distance some send enemies on are just....weird. They don’t seem to lead into...anything, yet they do the damage % as if they should.

Their neutral special is also worthless as it currently is imo. It needs to have less charge time on the weak version. Sure being able to shield cancel is neat and all, but you really can’t do anything with the actual projectile itself. It reminds me of zelda dins fire in past games before she had the phantom. You have almost no realistic way to really trap someone into the strong hit, and the weak hit isn’t very threatening either since it takes so long to charge it.

Those are the only two observations I can make on the character. I am not really interested in em much to play them regularly, but from what I have played, they really do feel underwhelming


Honestly I feel this character was rushed and was actually meant to have a weapon swap mechanic, where they basically got 3 distinct movesets similar to pkmn trainer based on what weapon they had equipped. For whatever reason this idea never came together completely, so sakurai slapped pieces of it on em to get them out the door.
 

Dhaos

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Dec 11, 2018
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Up special should target opponents when tangible instead of ledge so he's not so easily edge guarded. That alone would outweigh most of the faults imo.
 

Oz o:

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A lot of people have similiar suggestions for these kind of "slow" characters. People always suggest making them faster, but I feel that not only is it a very obvious buff, but it's also one thatwould make them somewhat broken. I think these sort of characters (also Zelda, for example), they're slow for a reason. It's the same with Byleth. If we had somewhat decent air speed, we'd be kind of ridiculous, given the amount of range you have with Fair/Bair and Uair. Whenever I play people, they pretty much always aim to get away from Uair by drifting horizontally. If Byleth had fast air speed, they would pretty much Uair you 10+ times until you die. And even if people can get away by just drifting away from Uair, this doesn't mean you don't have ways to still catch them (with, like, Fair).

I feel the weaknesses of this character the most when I'm playing against campy projectile characters, at least from what I've played on wifi. It's pretty annoying, but offline play might somewhat help with that. I haven't really struggled with rushdown, and I find you can get through if you're fast enough, and know how to handle close quarters, as well as things like "footsies". I've played a decent bit against combo heavy characters, such as Mario, Wario, Falco and even some Pichu/Pikachu, as well as other sword characters like Cloud & Lucina.

I think I've heard someone say that hard-to-play characters are basically a translation for "bad", but I don't think that's always the case. Byleth does feel like they take some skill to play effectively, but it seems like it can be worth it.
 

Oz o:

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I also think our recovery is, in a way, really damn good. It's true that there are certain characters that can gimp us (again, such as Falco), but I haven't struggled nearly as much as you would otherwise imply. If anything, I feel very comfterble with it, to the point I feel I can go really far out to edgeguard. Fair and Bair can kill ridiculously early.
 

Arrei

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A lot of people have similiar suggestions for these kind of "slow" characters. People always suggest making them faster, but I feel that not only is it a very obvious buff, but it's also one thatwould make them somewhat broken. I think these sort of characters (also Zelda, for example), they're slow for a reason. It's the same with Byleth. If we had somewhat decent air speed, we'd be kind of ridiculous, given the amount of range you have with Fair/Bair and Uair. Whenever I play people, they pretty much always aim to get away from Uair by drifting horizontally. If Byleth had fast air speed, they would pretty much Uair you 10+ times until you die. And even if people can get away by just drifting away from Uair, this doesn't mean you don't have ways to still catch them (with, like, Fair).
I think this is a fair concern, but move speed is not the only factor to consider. Many characters with better mobility don't quite have attacks as large as Byleth's, true, but their moves are usually compensated with being faster and less committal, which makes things like the Mario ladder possible that slower characters can't hope to replicate. Even if Byleth could move faster, his attacks are still mostly slow and would still require hard commitments, she'd just be better at getting into a position where he can choose a commitment. Other characters with similar strengths as Byleth, such as the Belmonts, have zoning or escape tools that she lacks, so I think it's only logical to either let him move better than they do, or improve her zoning game by making neutral special more useful than just as a fakeout/wavebounce button.
 
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BlackInk

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A lot of people have similiar suggestions for these kind of "slow" characters. People always suggest making them faster, but I feel that not only is it a very obvious buff, but it's also one thatwould make them somewhat broken. I think these sort of characters (also Zelda, for example), they're slow for a reason. It's the same with Byleth. If we had somewhat decent air speed, we'd be kind of ridiculous, given the amount of range you have with Fair/Bair and Uair. Whenever I play people, they pretty much always aim to get away from Uair by drifting horizontally. If Byleth had fast air speed, they would pretty much Uair you 10+ times until you die. And even if people can get away by just drifting away from Uair, this doesn't mean you don't have ways to still catch them (with, like, Fair).

I feel the weaknesses of this character the most when I'm playing against campy projectile characters, at least from what I've played on wifi. It's pretty annoying, but offline play might somewhat help with that. I haven't really struggled with rushdown, and I find you can get through if you're fast enough, and know how to handle close quarters, as well as things like "footsies". I've played a decent bit against combo heavy characters, such as Mario, Wario, Falco and even some Pichu/Pikachu, as well as other sword characters like Cloud & Lucina.

I think I've heard someone say that hard-to-play characters are basically a translation for "bad", but I don't think that's always the case. Byleth does feel like they take some skill to play effectively, but it seems like it can be worth it.
The biggest strength Byelth seems to have is a game of call outs. You know how characters with ridiculous speed tends to drift away and double jump to avoid getting hit? Byleth seems like the only character in the game who can easily call out stuff like this with their side-b. We have seen Pink Fresh punish a palutena for empty jumping with this move. Their fair and bair also give ZZS the finger when ZZS uses her side-b and downsmash (both of which are safe on shield for almost every character). Hell, the side-b’s range is so stupid, it catches ZSS’s flip jump. Whatever this character is, they seem like a big counter for many characters.

Edit: The more keep thinking about Byleth and watching MKleo play them. The more I realize that Byleth is legitimately a monster. Their true weakness is Fox and Wolf, but those two are meant to be so stupid in their neutral and punish game that their recoveries are the worst parts about them.
 
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DrKatz

Smash Cadet
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Nov 25, 2018
Messages
62
A lot of people have similiar suggestions for these kind of "slow" characters. People always suggest making them faster, but I feel that not only is it a very obvious buff, but it's also one thatwould make them somewhat broken. I think these sort of characters (also Zelda, for example), they're slow for a reason. It's the same with Byleth. If we had somewhat decent air speed, we'd be kind of ridiculous, given the amount of range you have with Fair/Bair and Uair. Whenever I play people, they pretty much always aim to get away from Uair by drifting horizontally. If Byleth had fast air speed, they would pretty much Uair you 10+ times until you die. And even if people can get away by just drifting away from Uair, this doesn't mean you don't have ways to still catch them (with, like, Fair).

I feel the weaknesses of this character the most when I'm playing against campy projectile characters, at least from what I've played on wifi. It's pretty annoying, but offline play might somewhat help with that. I haven't really struggled with rushdown, and I find you can get through if you're fast enough, and know how to handle close quarters, as well as things like "footsies". I've played a decent bit against combo heavy characters, such as Mario, Wario, Falco and even some Pichu/Pikachu, as well as other sword characters like Cloud & Lucina.

I think I've heard someone say that hard-to-play characters are basically a translation for "bad", but I don't think that's always the case. Byleth does feel like they take some skill to play effectively, but it seems like it can be worth it.
I echo your thoughts too. I was watching Pink Fresh stream the other day (the guy who won The Grind solo Byleth, and best ZD in Grand Finals). He said, “Man, I’m glad a lot of these people aren’t on the developer team. If Byleth was faster he’d be broken as hell. You’d never be able to escape disadvantage against him, especially with his Upair range.”

I agree with him and think anyone underrating the character either hasn’t put enough time into him yet, or can’t mesh well with his playstyle. Byleth is a very defensive character overall, and needs to be played as such. As I’ve gotten the hang of it, my results continue to improve.
 

Nah

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It should be obvious why characters with a lot of range and/or kill power aren't usually (usually) given great mobility and/or frame data, Ganondorf would be a ****ing nightmare and a half if he had, like, Mario's mobility, but that doesn't mean that they can't be given small mobility boosts. They've done that before. Byleth's not gonna become broken if given a small boost to just air speed or air accel or something.

Mobility is just such a hugely important trait in 1v1s that not having it absolutely makes one less viable. There's plenty of proofs for this in the series' history. Even if mobility isn't the thing to change for Byleth, it's not as if there's nothing at all that could use to be tweaked.

....I'd also rather not see people say stuff like "anyone underrating the character either hasn’t put enough time into him yet, or can’t mesh well with his playstyle", phrases like that never add much to conversations, and are just outright false. It's easy enough to find footage to watch, to find people to talk to. And please, do try to tell me that I just "don't get the character, don't mesh with their playstyle" after years of playing Lucina/Corrin/Robin, on top of Byleth since their release day.

Like, I'm open to being wrong about this character, but c'mon guys, you all need to do better than pointing to top players sweeping locals and "ur just bad with the character lol" in order to do that.
 

BlackInk

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It should be obvious why characters with a lot of range and/or kill power aren't usually (usually) given great mobility and/or frame data, Ganondorf would be a ****ing nightmare and a half if he had, like, Mario's mobility, but that doesn't mean that they can't be given small mobility boosts. They've done that before. Byleth's not gonna become broken if given a small boost to just air speed or air accel or something.

Mobility is just such a hugely important trait in 1v1s that not having it absolutely makes one less viable. There's plenty of proofs for this in the series' history. Even if mobility isn't the thing to change for Byleth, it's not as if there's nothing at all that could use to be tweaked.

....I'd also rather not see people say stuff like "anyone underrating the character either hasn’t put enough time into him yet, or can’t mesh well with his playstyle", phrases like that never add much to conversations, and are just outright false. It's easy enough to find footage to watch, to find people to talk to. And please, do try to tell me that I just "don't get the character, don't mesh with their playstyle" after years of playing Lucina/Corrin/Robin, on top of Byleth since their release day.

Like, I'm open to being wrong about this character, but c'mon guys, you all need to do better than pointing to top players sweeping locals and "ur just bad with the character lol" in order to do that.
The fact that Byleth clicks way faster than Banjo, Hero, and Terry on their first week is really weird.
 

DrKatz

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Joined
Nov 25, 2018
Messages
62
It should be obvious why characters with a lot of range and/or kill power aren't usually (usually) given great mobility and/or frame data, Ganondorf would be a ****ing nightmare and a half if he had, like, Mario's mobility, but that doesn't mean that they can't be given small mobility boosts. They've done that before. Byleth's not gonna become broken if given a small boost to just air speed or air accel or something.

Mobility is just such a hugely important trait in 1v1s that not having it absolutely makes one less viable. There's plenty of proofs for this in the series' history. Even if mobility isn't the thing to change for Byleth, it's not as if there's nothing at all that could use to be tweaked.

....I'd also rather not see people say stuff like "anyone underrating the character either hasn’t put enough time into him yet, or can’t mesh well with his playstyle", phrases like that never add much to conversations, and are just outright false. It's easy enough to find footage to watch, to find people to talk to. And please, do try to tell me that I just "don't get the character, don't mesh with their playstyle" after years of playing Lucina/Corrin/Robin, on top of Byleth since their release day.

Like, I'm open to being wrong about this character, but c'mon guys, you all need to do better than pointing to top players sweeping locals and "ur just bad with the character lol" in order to do that.
I just wanted to clarify that I didn’t mean to come off as offensive or blaming people for not being good with the character.

In my experience playing the character, I’ve done fairly well, both on elite smash and against my friends who play pretty competitively locally. But at first, I struggled a lot to win. My GSP tanker initially and I lost 90% of the games against my friends, now I’m 50/50 or better. That’s why I think Byleth is a tough character to play who takes a lot of practice to get a feel for. That’s been my personal experience at least.

PinkFresh took first place at The Grind, and MKLeo just won a Mexican tournament with some fairly strong players (per his Twitter). That’s why I tend to have hope for the character and hesitate jumping onto the “let’s buff him” train this early on. If within a few months, he’s struggling to get results, I’d definitely agree he needs buffs. But it feels kinda premature (at least in my opinion) right now.
 

BlackInk

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I just wanted to clarify that I didn’t mean to come off as offensive or blaming people for not being good with the character.

In my experience playing the character, I’ve done fairly well, both on elite smash and against my friends who play pretty competitively locally. But at first, I struggled a lot to win. My GSP tanker initially and I lost 90% of the games against my friends, now I’m 50/50 or better. That’s why I think Byleth is a tough character to play who takes a lot of practice to get a feel for. That’s been my personal experience at least.

PinkFresh took first place at The Grind, and MKLeo just won a Mexican tournament with some fairly strong players (per his Twitter). That’s why I tend to have hope for the character and hesitate jumping onto the “let’s buff him” train this early on. If within a few months, he’s struggling to get results, I’d definitely agree he needs buffs. But it feels kinda premature (at least in my opinion) right now.
I think everyone was just paranoid about Byleth having the worst mobility stats or that his frame data and and projectile were awful (which definitely isn’t the case). Looking at MKleo’s streams on Byleth, they actually did design a functional kit around that mobility (unlike Corrin or Robin). Corrin has better speed than Byleth and yet they suck at everything Byleth excels at.
 
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Nah

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DrKatz DrKatz that's definitely fair, it is still really early

The fact that Byleth clicks way faster than Banjo, Hero, and Terry on their first week is really weird.
Are you talking about yourself or...?
 
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HenryXLII

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I think the topic has become very centralized on Byleth's mobility. In truth I think literally no one would be happy if Byleth was speedy, that would just be an oppressive character. That said, I do not think some kind of mobility buff is out of the question.

Over the past few weeks, Byleth has shown some useful tech that has given them a competitive niche, showing that the character does have some potential. I still standby my original statement that I think the character simply is not fun to play. I think they should receive some form of buffs to make their kit overall more cohesive, be it a slight mobility buff, or better frame data.
 

Diddy Kong

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Areadbahr needs to be stronger and Side B grounded needs the power of aerial Side B. A more generous tipper is also good, because Byleth lacks the mobility of Marth, and Marth also doesn't make his tipper work too well. Give Side B super armour even. Byleth just needs a scary neutral option, because Failnaught alone isn't doing that, and Amyr is meme tier almost. Safeness on shield needs to be improved, and her tilts need to be completely on par with the rest of the sword cast to be able to work effectively. More upward range of U Smash and U Air as well, because why not. And of course, increased mobility.
 

Oz o:

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Mobility is always a topic that seems to be relevant because it tends to be the first aspect that people jump into. I don't know if Byleth is in the higher tiers, but they don't seem awful... just hard to play at your best level. Some people apparently translate this into basically being bad, but I don't think a character that requires skill has to be bad. I don't find Byleth as inconsistent as someone like Little Mac, for example. If only for the recovery.

I was one of the people that likely felt most concerned with how Byleth would've turned out, before the release. "just barely faster than Robin" could've meant anything, and it still didn't cover things initial dash speed and other attributes that make the overall character. Around two weeks later, I'm glad I wasn't disappointed. The character is definitely slow, but it doesn't feel that way if you know how to manuever around things and space properly as to not feel sluggish and vulnerable. Fair and Bair are very likely to be your most important tools in neutral, and even though they have some starup lag, they're pretty safe on shield if you know how to space them.

I just feel like the weaknesses make sense compared to the strengths. Not every character has to be handed out to you and be easy to use for them to be good. Again, I don't think they're among the higher tiers, but it's not like they need to be. Besides, the "Mid Tier" is likely massive, and chances are you're still doing pretty good.
 

DrKatz

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Nov 25, 2018
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I’m kind of getting tired of people assuming the character is bad or unplayable. I actually will make the bold claim they Byleth is upper-mid/high tier. Since Byleth’s release, three tournaments have been won by solo Byleth players.

MKLeo won MKSunday with some decent Mexican players (and has went even/positive against Maister’s G&W on stream).

Zachray won EastGeekSmash tournament against some pretty strong Lucina, Fox, Pikachu, and Joker (Eim) players.

Pink Fresh won The Grind 112 against ZD’s Fox/Wolf (two matchups which are fairly tough for Byleth).

Keep saying Byleth is carried by these great players, or keep saying it’s solely due to matchup unfamiliarity (though you could argue that Byleth’s meta/combo game isn’t fully developed either). But I honestly think the results show that this character cannot possibly be worse than mid tier.
 

Oz o:

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I’m kind of getting tired of people assuming the character is bad or unplayable. I actually will make the bold claim they Byleth is upper-mid/high tier. Since Byleth’s release, three tournaments have been won by solo Byleth players.

MKLeo won MKSunday with some decent Mexican players (and has went even/positive against Maister’s G&W on stream).

Zachray won EastGeekSmash tournament against some pretty strong Lucina, Fox, Pikachu, and Joker (Eim) players.

Pink Fresh won The Grind 112 against ZD’s Fox/Wolf (two matchups which are fairly tough for Byleth).

Keep saying Byleth is carried by these great players, or keep saying it’s solely due to matchup unfamiliarity (though you could argue that Byleth’s meta/combo game isn’t fully developed either). But I honestly think the results show that this character cannot possibly be worse than mid tier.
You know what? I'm the first person to be skeptical about new characters. I don't jump into the bandwagon quickly, but then I also don't automatically assume they're bad, either. When people ask me what I think about Byleth, I just tell them I can't picture them being a bad character. Let's be honest, this character requires some degree of hands to play. You can't expect anyone to pick them up and start winning without thinking (at least against decent players).

I said earlier, I feel you can start of really well if you just know how space Fair & Bair. These are essentially your neutral, and you'll eventually just kill off of these. They're also your safest moves, when spaced well.

I don't think even MKLeo would've gotten that far if he were to use a truly bad character. As for PinkFresh, it was basically like Day 1 or 2 when he won that, so I don't really feel that as a really good case for the character. I feel he wasn't too far from getting 6-0'd if ZD hasn't lost his stream. Did you see that Game 1?
And as for other noticeable Byleths so far, apparently there's another Mexican player that goes by Blade or CloudyJoker. He seems pretty up to date with how he uses the character, and he's beaten Sparg0 twice in the same tournament (SmashVertex).
 

Cheryl~

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Personally I don’t think buffing Byleth’s mobility by a lot would be healthy considering their kill potential and the fact that they already have a lot of really good moves (all of their aerials not naked D-Air, their tilts are fantastic although D-Tilt could actually afford to be faster than Frame 13, solid recovery and Smash attacks, etc.) and it’s clear that they were designed to be slow but with a lot of ranged tools. If I were to buff their mobility I would just buff their running speed just enough to make jab locking out of N-Air easier since right now Byleth is often too slow to get the jab lock. It’s a very, very specific scenario though and I don’t think they need a mobility buff anyway.

If there was one move in Byleth’s kit that I could buff though, it would have to be Dash Attack. For a move that’s super unsafe on shield no matter how much you space it, I feel like Byleth’s dash attack does not yield nearly as much reward as it should on a character that sometimes relies on it for getting in. Mainly, I’d like the kill power of the tipper dash attack to be increased as with proper DI I’ve had opponents live at 120% near the edge off of N-Air to Dash Attack which is a commonly used kill confirm for Byleth. That is kind of absurd and just makes me think Dash Attack is really mediocre as a move especially compared to some of Byleth’s other tools. A buff to kill power would give it better reward and make Byleth’s kill confirm more potent. it would also make the lack of safety on shield a little more reasonable.
 

Oz o:

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The better I get with Byleth, the more I realize the character doesn't really need anything.
 

HenryXLII

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The better I get with Byleth, the more I realize the character doesn't really need anything.
I think the character could use some buffs, but not many now that I am actually improving as Byleth myself. This character has some crazy powerful tools that really help them standout, they just play very differently from everyone else. I am actually trying to main Byleth now!
 

Wiley

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I think it’s dangerous to buff Byleth too much.

He’s a high tier/monster tier counterpick, but not solo viable by design, I see no need to buff him outside of a few quality of life changes. His tipper fsmash kills so absurdly early and his fair Bair and uair, when spaced, are disgusting tools.

I’d like the option to target players with up b off stage with directional influence being prioritized.

And I’m pretty good with bow canceling and finding the snipe but a quicker release on stage 1 would still be appreciated. I’m indifferent about that though, I like skill shots with high payoffs.

I find Byleth one of the most fun and rewarding to master though.
 

Oz o:

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I think it’s dangerous to buff Byleth too much.

He’s a high tier/monster tier counterpick, but not solo viable by design, I see no need to buff him outside of a few quality of life changes. His tipper fsmash kills so absurdly early and his fair Bair and uair, when spaced, are disgusting tools.
I don't think they're that good, and that's what I feel after playing them a lot since release. I went from being skeptical, to thinking they might be somewhat decent, to now feeling realistic that they may as well just be lower tier characters, and there's literally nothing wrong with that.

It's just like you say, in that it feels as if giving them slight buffs in the wrong direction might've made them really good. I really get that impression from the developers, based on:

- A couple of our attacks extend their hurtboxes before (and sometimes even after), such as Dtilt, Fair/Bair and Side B. This somewhat beats the purpose of having large disjoints, since you'll sometimes just end up trading. There were multiple times I got punished like an FSmash away by just throwing Dtilt too early.
- We could, at the very least, having less cooldown or startup in some attacks. It's true that Fair and Bair have fairly low cooldown for their, but Nair could either be slightly faster or be a lot safer on shield (like -5 or 6 instead of -9 at it's best). It's not like we have the aerial mobility to comfterbly weave in and out of range.
- An actual OoS wouldn't hurt at all. The Belmonts have something like a Frame 5 Up B to get out of situations, and they play roughly the same up close. Our fastest OoS is Frame 9 at best, and it doesn't hit low or have much range at all. Up B, at Frame 11, really lacks horizontal range.
- Dtilt could be a lot faster, especially given the kind of risk. You can't really use it up close, and it's not like it's that great at combos. Doesn't even always combo into Up B at 0.
- Arrow is really bad. I see people trying to really make it into a real move since it's basically all we have, but it's honestly just far better off for like B-Reversing and doing something out of it. Byleth would probably jump a tier if they had something like Young Link or Toon Link arrows. They wouldn't be broken, but it'd give them an excuse for being so slow.


In short, not only are we slow all across the board, but then we also lack a real solid OoS option, we aren't that heavy, our range rarely outweighs how slow we are and how we don't always fully outrange people (like other swordies). Byleth feels somewhat obselete next to actual sword characters at times, since it's not like they don't have safe aerials with far better frame data and can't kill decently as well.
 
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MarioMeteor

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I personally think Byleth is very fun. I was hooked from my first time playing him, but I will acknowledge that he’s pretty cheeks. I understand why they made him slow, but I think they overdid it in a lot of aspects. Unfortunately, this has never been a game for slow characters, and the characters’ flaws become painfully apparent when he’s faced with someone with decent mobility.

First, does down tilt really need to be 13 frames? I get that it true combos into a kill move, but I don’t think it deserves to be as slow as a smash attack. I would shorten it down to 10 frames.

This one isn’t really necessary but I would like if dash attack’s sourspot were made stronger to compensate for how much easier it is to land than the sweetspot. The sourspot is so inadequate it feels like a Marth normal.

It’d be nice if forward smash were, say, 20 frames instead of 23. Having it be this slow is excessive considering that you need to space it and the fact that it’s not safe on shield even when you do.

I think it would really helpful for Byleth if his neutral air always sent the opponent in front of him like Falco’s. I really think all multi-hitting neutral airs should work like this, but I digress.

Forward and back air are probably Byleth’s most important moves, but the hitboxes leave a little to be desired. I would give them both a little more vertical range to make them easier to land. Also, why the **** does forward air make a punch sound effect? It’s very funny, but I’m almost sure it’s not supposed to be like that.

Look within the deepest parts of your soul, search your feelings, and tell me if you really think it’s reasonable for Byleth’s down air to have 28 frames of landing lag? I get that this is supposed to be an aerial smash attack, but aren’t the 22 frames of startup enough of a hindrance? It wouldn’t hurt anybody to shave off some of that landing lag.

Bring me the person who designed Failnaught so he and I can... talk. A 45 frame projectile? That clashes with other projectiles? Please, I just want some answers. I think making the uncharged version moderately faster (also let him cancel out of it sooner) would help out Byleth a lot.

This one isn’t quite as important as the others but a little less ending lag on Areadbhar would be great. If not this, then more shield stun on the tipper hitbox so that you’re not always terribly unsafe.

Lastly, why is Sword of the Creator not an actual grab? Make it so that you can’t shield this move.
I‘m not even asking for any stat increases, I would just like Byleth to have some moves that are more functional and not memes. It’s fine to have one or two meme attacks, but not a whole moveset full of them.
 
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StrangeKitten

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Idk, maybe it's because I've mained Incineroar since release, but Byleth doesn't feel that slow in terms of ground and air stats to me (though don't get me wrong, they are still slow). I think the two could be buffed a little, but only a little. What Byleth needs is frame data that begins to approach normalcy. As someone whose best secondary is Ike, I was very happy when they changed him to be less reliant on nair. I love exploring all the moves a character's kit has to offer. So uh, for the love of goodness they shouldn't nerf Byleth's nair in any way, but they seriously need to make most of the other moves better so I don't feel so forced to use nair, like, 90% of the time. I love playing as Byleth, and I'll admit I definitely need to put more time into the character. But their frame data seriously feels unfairly horrendous. Nair, up air, and the smash attacks are the only moves that feel about as fast as they should. And down B should be as slow as it is. The entire rest of their kit feels like it needs either startup or endlag decreased. Possibly both in some cases.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Boop:


Attributes
-Weight increased (97 → 101)
-Initial Dash speed increased (1.8 → 2)

-Air additional acceleration increased (0.043 → 0.06)
(Total Air Acceleration increased (0.053 → 0.07))

-Air speed increased (0.89 → 0.94)
-Byleth can now wall jump.

Neutral Air
-Hitbox reworked, overall size increased to remove blindspots.

Forward Air
-Hit SFX altered to better match the power of the move..
-Auto-cancel window improved. (36> → 34>)

Back Air
-Auto-cancel window improved, now auto-cancels on Short Hop. (40> → 34>)

Up Air
-Landing lag decreased (14 frames → 13 frames)
 
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