I wish Bowser was back to being hunched and primal like in Melee and (mostly) Brawl

[Quillion]

I really miss the days of when Bowser was this primal, intimidating force of nature. Yeah, he was much worse as a fighter in those games, and yes, it wasn't closer to his depiction in Mario canon, but I don't care.

His moves just felt like they had more weight to it. Whether it was using the spikes on his shell, spinning around, or using his claws, it was like he knew he was a heavy, brutal monster and did everything to take advantage of it. And the f-smash HEADBUTT, man! He rams his head into the unfortunate victim with explosive force, doing tons of damage and sending them flying. That is the part I miss most about the old Bowser.

Now in Smash 4, Bowser just isn't fun anymore. While I can appreciate making Bowser more of a wrestler, his moves just feel like don't have any weight to them. Yeah, they still deal damage, but in terms of "feel", he just feels like Mario who happens to do a crapton of damage.

Canon doesn't always make a character's portrayal in Smash better, guys. Smash 4 and Ultimate's Bowser just isn't MY Bowser.

 

[GM_3826]

Fun fact: that's actually his design from the Nintendo 64 era. Notice how in Super Mario RPG and Super Mario 64 he's drawn as similarly hunchbacked. They just didn't update his design to the one he received in Super Mario Sunshine in Brawl, while in Super Smash Bros. 4 they did.

Why? I don't really know. It's probably because that game was trying to be darker and edgier then Nintendo in general was. Super Smash Bros. 4 was generally truer to the tone of most other Nintendo games, and so Bowser was updated.

As for my opinion on Bowser? Holy ****. I hated how slow Bowser was back during my Super Smash Bros. Brawl days, and loathed playing as him. In Super Smash Bros. 4 he's probably one of my favorite characters to play, thanks to being fast enough that I feel comfortable playing as him without going overboard like how someone like Greninja might, while also being incredibly powerful. Every time he hits someone it seems to have so much weight to it. I love it. Also, I generally prefer it when Bowser is portrayed as an actual character like how he is in the more recent games rather than some primal force of nature. Remember that was one of the things people criticized about Paper Mario: Sticker Star, albeit one of many problems with that game.

So yeah, I beg to differ.

 

[Quillion]

Fun fact: that's actually his design from the Nintendo 64 era. Notice how in Super Mario RPG and Super Mario 64 he's drawn as similarly hunchbacked. They just didn't update his design to the one he received in Super Mario Sunshine in Brawl, while in Super Smash Bros. 4 they did.

Why? I don't really know. It's probably because that game was trying to be darker and edgier then Nintendo in general was. Super Smash Bros. 4 was generally truer to the tone of most other Nintendo games, and so Bowser was updated.

As for my opinion on Bowser? Holy ****. I hated how slow Bowser was back during my Super Smash Bros. Brawl days, and loathed playing as him. In Super Smash Bros. 4 he's probably one of my favorite characters to play, thanks to being fast enough that I feel comfortable playing as him without going overboard like how someone like Greninja might, while also being incredibly powerful. Every time he hits someone it seems to have so much weight to it. I love it. Also, I generally prefer it when Bowser is portrayed as an actual character like how he is in the more recent games rather than some primal force of nature. Remember that was one of the things people criticized about Paper Mario: Sticker Star, albeit one of many problems with that game.

So yeah, I beg to differ.

It's not like primal Bowser had to remain slow. They could have just sped up his animations a bit and made his... "run" move faster. It's not like it would've been too much of a leap; his run was actually above average to start with.

The only reason upright Bowser has weight is purely because of his knockback and damage, and with how light his attacks feel, that weight just doesn't feel deserved. It's the same problem Snake had back in Brawl.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ironically, Bowser's appearance in Melee and Brawl pretty much suggest that he should sound like a Godzilla rip-off. Also, Melee & Brawl Bowser do not have the knockback-based heavy armor mechanics that Smash 3DS / Wii U Bowser received, so practically any attack that deals any amount of knockback will cause them to flinch; compare that to Smash 3DS / Wii U Bowser, who won't flinch at all if he doesn't take more than 19 units of knockback.

Anyway, Bowser at least feels more like his canon appearance now; the only thing missing is Kenny James's voice portrayal of him.

 

[Quillion]

Ironically, Bowser's appearance in Melee and Brawl pretty much suggest that he should sound like a Godzilla rip-off. Also, Melee & Brawl Bowser do not have the knockback-based heavy armor mechanics that Smash 3DS / Wii U Bowser received, so practically any attack that deals any amount of knockback will cause them to flinch; compare that to Smash 3DS / Wii U Bowser, who won't flinch at all if he doesn't take more than 19 units of knockback.

Anyway, Bowser at least feels more like his canon appearance now; the only thing missing is Kenny James's voice portrayal of him.

So is there any good reason as to why Primal Bowser can't get Tough Guy?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So is there any good reason as to why Primal Bowser can't get Tough Guy?

I don't think that kind of mechanic ever really existed before Smash 3DS / Wii U. Giga Bowser and Wario-Man don't count, because the former reduces all knockback taken to 0, while the latter is virtually immune to damage (and knockback) outside of eating explosives and going off-screen.

 

[Garo]

I'm generally a bigger fan of wrestler Bowser than primal, but one thing I don't like is how he's steadily been relying on his shell less and less. In Melee and Brawl he used it in 7 attacks, in for 3DS/Wii U in 5 and in Ultimate in only 4 attacks.

 

[StormC]

I never touched Bowser in Melee or Brawl but he was one of my most played characters in Smash 4, so I'm pretty happy with the changes.

Unfortunately it looks like he sucks again in Ultimate.

 

[Kerthorok]

I never touched Bowser in Melee or Brawl but he was one of my most played characters in Smash 4, so I'm pretty happy with the changes.

Unfortunately it looks like he sucks again in Ultimate.

Have you been reading any of the Bowser Smash Ultimate Analysis or watching any of the competitive videos?

 

[Quillion]

I don't think that kind of mechanic ever really existed before Smash 3DS / Wii U. Giga Bowser and Wario-Man don't count, because the former reduces all knockback taken to 0, while the latter is virtually immune to damage (and knockback) outside of eating explosives and going off-screen.

You miss the point. Why can't Bowser just revert to his primal animations while still retaining Tough Guy, his movement speed, and his somewhat better frame data?

We'd have the best of both worlds. Honestly, it really seems like NO ONE likes Bowser on his wrestler animations alone; people only like him because he has better numbers.

What I'm saying is that if we had buffed Bowser with all of the old animations, there would still be no reason to complain. Right now, I'm complaining because Bowser looks big and dumb and not the monster I came to love in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Quillion : My problem is that Melee and Brawl Bowser just don't stay true to the way that Bowser is portrayed in his Super Mario series appearances. In a lot of Bowser's 3D appearances, his shell only has 10 spikes on it, and he's not quite as hunched over. Also, as evidenced in Super Mario 64, Bowser is capable of running, which easily explains the changes to his running animations for Smash 3DS / Wii U.

You may complain about Bowser's Smash 3DS / Wii U appearance looking dumb, but at least he better resembles his canon self now.

 

[Quillion]

Quillion : My problem is that Melee and Brawl Bowser just don't stay true to the way that Bowser is portrayed in his Super Mario series appearances. In a lot of Bowser's 3D appearances, his shell only has 10 spikes on it, and he's not quite as hunched over. Also, as evidenced in Super Mario 64, Bowser is capable of running, which easily explains the changes to his running animations for Smash 3DS / Wii U.

You may complain about Bowser's Smash 3DS / Wii U appearance looking dumb, but at least he better resembles his canon self now.

Canon does not make Smash portrayals better. Giving Zelda her Light Bow back in any capacity is a dumb idea. Giving Donkey Kong a barrel throw or coconut gun is a dumb idea. Giving Peach a fireball is a dumb idea. Giving Fox the Assault weapons is a dumb idea.

In this case, canon just made Bowser's Smash portrayal worse.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Canon does not make Smash portrayals better. Giving Zelda her Light Bow back in any capacity is a dumb idea. Giving Donkey Kong a barrel throw or coconut gun is a dumb idea. Giving Peach a fireball is a dumb idea. Giving Fox the Assault weapons is a dumb idea.

In this case, canon just made Bowser's Smash portrayal worse.

I'm rather surprised that you didn't mention Yoshi when making that post. In Smash 64 and Melee, he used his original appearance, instead of the more humanoid-looking appearance that would eventually be used in Brawl and beyond.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

You miss the point. Why can't Bowser just revert to his primal animations while still retaining Tough Guy, his movement speed, and his somewhat better frame data?

We'd have the best of both worlds. Honestly, it really seems like NO ONE likes Bowser on his wrestler animations alone; people only like him because he has better numbers.

What I'm saying is that if we had buffed Bowser with all of the old animations, there would still be no reason to complain. Right now, I'm complaining because Bowser looks big and dumb and not the monster I came to love in Melee and Brawl.

I actually liked Bowser's 4 animations. The drop kick forward smash always feels meaty and satisfying and I like his dash animation. To me it more accurately represents Bowser. Never assume that you are the voice for everyone.

 

[Kerthorok]

I like Bowser in Ultimate imo. Would hate for him to revert back to Leg Day skipping form where he dashes on roller skates. However, I don't like how bright and plain he is in smash 4 though. I like that they're returning to the darker, realistic tones of brawl while keeping the smash 4 model with a few updated animations.

 

[Quillion]

I'm rather surprised that you didn't mention Yoshi when making that post. In Smash 64 and Melee, he used his original appearance, instead of the more humanoid-looking appearance that would eventually be used in Brawl and beyond.

At least Yoshi's moveset and animations largely stayed the same, so I tolerate it. Bowser losing his monstrousness is just intolerable.

I actually liked Bowser's 4 animations. The drop kick forward smash always feels meaty and satisfying and I like his dash animation. To me it more accurately represents Bowser. Never assume that you are the voice for everyone.

It's nowhere near as mighty as Bowser ramming with the force of a full steam train.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't like Bowsers voice in the recent Smash games. He sounds so animal like and I wish they had his actual voice in Smash.

 

[Quillion]

I don't like Bowsers voice in the recent Smash games. He sounds so animal like and I wish they had his actual voice in Smash.

I suppose I can agree as far as the voice goes, but the animation changes are still unnecessary.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't like Bowsers voice in the recent Smash games. He sounds so animal like and I wish they had his actual voice in Smash.

Unfortunately, Kenny James's voice work would not work well with Bowser's Melee and Brawl incarnations. The voice work would've worked perfectly for Smash 3DS / Wii U Bowser and Smash Ultimate Bowser, especially with Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings roaming around now, but for some reason, the developers still refuse to use it.

 

[Quillion]

Unfortunately, Kenny James's voice work would not work well with Bowser's Melee and Brawl incarnations. The voice work would've worked perfectly for Smash 3DS / Wii U Bowser and Smash Ultimate Bowser, especially with Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings roaming around now, but for some reason, the developers still refuse to use it.

Which is all the more reason why Bowser is better off with his monstrous animations than the wrestler animations in Smash.

 

[Rizen]

I miss Bowser vibrating across the ground for a dash.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Changes were for the better. When I play as him, he now runs as fast as a truck and hits like a train. I've never felt his attacks having less weight on them so that notion seems to be an arbitrary pet peeve. As a Bowser main, Smash 4 is the incarnation I've enjoyed the most thanks to the adjustments. He is definitely my Bowz.

 

[Quillion]

Changes were for the better. When I play as him, he now runs as fast as a truck and hits like a train. I've never felt his attacks having less weight on them so that notion seems to be an arbitrary pet peeve. As a Bowser main, Smash 4 is the incarnation I've enjoyed the most thanks to the adjustments. He is definitely my Bowz.

But did they have to change his awesome monster animations just to put in all the changes?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Yep, at least for most of them.

For example, giving Bowz his Smash 4 run speed but leaving the old dash animation would have looked awkward and might have felt unintuitive. His new running cycle actually helped him so that you could stop almost immediately and then able to act out of it much quicker.

 

[S_B]

Unfortunately, Kenny James's voice work would not work well with Bowser's Melee and Brawl incarnations. The voice work would've worked perfectly for Smash 3DS / Wii U Bowser and Smash Ultimate Bowser, especially with Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings roaming around now, but for some reason, the developers still refuse to use it.

Long story short, they didn't want to have to pay another voice talent.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Long story short, they didn't want to have to pay another voice talent.

A rather odd excuse for a company who frequently reuses old voice clips.

 

[S_B]

A rather odd excuse for a company who frequently reuses old voice clips.

True, but for union voice talents, they'd still need to pay them all the same.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

True, but for union voice talents, they'd still need to pay them all the same.

When you look at the previous Mario and Donkey Kong titles, you would think that that wouldn't be too much of a problem to cover.

 

[S_B]

When you look at the previous Mario and Donkey Kong titles, you would think that that wouldn't be too much of a problem to cover.

SSB is a different story because they already have bunches of characters that need unique voice talents. They can save money by not needing to pay residuals to human voice actors where animal noises or synthesized effects can be used instead.

Or maybe Sakurai just prefers them that way. I can't be sure but it definitely becomes cheaper to not need to pay quite as many residuals to union talents.

KRool also lacks his classic "Augh!" noise on hit/KO, again, because that was a voice talent and they'd need to pay to license it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

S_B

It should probably be noted that for certain franchises, Nintendo doesn't own all the rights to their contents. For example, the Pokemon characters are all Game Freak's properly, and the company would likely never tolerate seeing its own creations sound like real world animals; Charizard is the only exception, primarily because of the way its voice is portrayed in the anime.

 

[AuraGuardian]

One thing I like to think about the Smash 4 and especially Ultimate incarnations of Bowser is the dichotomy between Bowser and Giga Bowser. This version of Bowser I see is like Bane: he is very powerful, but isn't just a muscle bound meat head. He thinks a bit and calculates. I see that a bit with Ultimate Bowser. Rather than this animalstic, mindless form of fighting, he now fights with more precision and speed. Abother thing that helps this version is the sound effects. The crunchiness of his fist strikes, the impact of his drop kick, the pain of his claws swipes, the veseral sounds of the Whirling Fortress, the fact that he not only runs with the speed of an olympic sprinter, but that he shakes the screen as he runs adds to the fact this ************ is a force to reckoned with. You tell me you wouldn't be terrified of this big ass monster sprinting at you. But see, that is just this form. If he feel that what he has isn't enough, he has a new form that is far more powerful, far more violent, and far more primal. Giga Bowser is the inner beast that lies dormant within Bowser. I love it. I am not here to change your mind, just here to give my two cents.

 

[Yonder]

KRool also lacks his classic "Augh!" noise on hit/KO, again, because that was a voice talent and they'd need to pay to license it.

Really? I forgot about that sound but I really miss it now. Interesting tidbit.

I also wish badly for Kenny James to voice Bowser in smash, but I don't think it's ever going to happen.

 

[S_B]

Really? I forgot about that sound but I really miss it now. Interesting tidbit.

I also wish badly for Kenny James to voice Bowser in smash, but I don't think it's ever going to happen.

My theory is that Sakurai opts to lower costs on voice acting by using bestial noises for any character he can get away with it on.

Nothing else really makes sense as DK, Bowser, and KRool all have actual voice actors and that wouldn't need to be translated across regions.

But they likely would need to be paid residuals so it's cheaper to not use them.

 

[Yonder]

My theory is that Sakurai opts to lower costs on voice acting by using bestial noises for any character he can get away with it on.

Nothing else really makes sense as DK, Bowser, and KRool all have actual voice actors and that wouldn't need to be translated across regions.

But they likely would need to be paid residuals so it's cheaper to not use them.

True. All the money Sakurai had budgeted went to getting Cloud back.

Jokes...i think.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

King K.Rool shouldn't sound like a feral beast...if he was really just this brainless savage creature then how is he the king of anything?

same with bowser....

 

[meleebrawler]

King K.Rool shouldn't sound like a feral beast...if he was really just this brainless savage creature then how is he the king of anything?

same with bowser....

Why not ask Ridley or Dark Samus? They're pretty smart despite not sounding even remotely human-like...

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Why not ask Ridley?

there's a difference between A Band Of Space Pirates And An Entire Kingdom filled with advanced Machinery and elite guards at your disposal in bowser's case

Ridley's smart but he's not exactly flooding an entire countryside with gigantic castles and death-traps like bowser