I liked to play Ganondorf more when he wasn't good

[Gobthor]

Ganondorf just doesn't feel like Ganondorf to me anymore.

Please, share your opinion on this. I need to hear all words to restore my faith in Ganondorf being the King Disrespect he was meant to be.

 

[Xelrog]

You truly can't make everyone happy.

 

[Saikyoshi]

He had the "king of lag switches" problem in Wii U/3DS just as often. I dreaded going up against Ganondorf players because, in my experience, they almost always had a horrid connection that Ganondorf could take advantage of.

 

[Necro'lic]

Considering the title, I hope you aren't saying you'd rather Ganondorf be terrible again just to somehow appease you.

 

[PhantomShab]

"le epic king of disrespect xD"

Thank god Ganondorf is actually starting to climb out of that sewage.

 

[Predatoria]

As someone who has enjoyed playing Ganon since SSBB, I'm personally glad he's more viable than ever before.

 

[Quillion]

I think Ganondorf's sword smashes made him less fun to play us. The Ganondorf in Smash I came to love was one who got in close and destroyed opponents for making stupid mistakes.

Now with his big sweeping smashes, you can just do kill fishing and it works. Also, I just liked his barehanded animations more.

 

[Gobthor]

The Ganondorf in Smash I came to love was one who got in close and destroyed opponents for making stupid mistakes.

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

[PhantomShab]

I think Ganondorf's sword smashes made him less fun to play us. The Ganondorf in Smash I came to love was one who got in close and destroyed opponents for making stupid mistakes.

Now with his big sweeping smashes, you can just do kill fishing and it works. Also, I just liked his barehanded animations more.

But his new smash attacks still do exactly that. Like what are you even talking about right now?

 

[Guynamednelson]

making stupid mistakes

Like playing Ganondorf in Brawl/4?

 

[Quillion]

But his new smash attacks still do exactly that. Like what are you even talking about right now?

Because it was more enjoyable to get in close and destroy the opponent instead of doing it with massive sweeping hitboxes.

I would rather just gave the elbow and kicks the "kill at 50" power than shoehorning that sword into a moveset where it doesn't belong.

 

[PhantomShab]

Because it was more enjoyable to get in close and destroy the opponent instead of doing it with massive sweeping hitboxes.

I would rather just gave the elbow and kicks the "kill at 50" power than shoehorning that sword into a moveset where it doesn't belong.

Almost that entire moveset is on a character it doesn't belong on in the first place lmao

 

[UserKev]

I actually realized Ganondorf with a sword is potentially bland. Melee Ganondorf was amazing. All he needs is his projectile to feel accurate to character. The Warlock Punch is completely useless and overkill.

 

[Quillion]

Almost that entire moveset is on a character it doesn't belong on in the first place lmao

And here we go again with people wanting movesets to be more canon.

No one wants Mario to get his hammer, and people applauded the decision to have Zelda LOSE her signature Light Arrow.

You clearly don't want Mario or Zelda to have their signature weapons, so I guess that makes you a hypocrite.

I actually realized Ganondorf with a sword is potentially bland. Melee Ganondorf was amazing. All he needs is his projectile to feel accurate to character. The Warlock Punch is completely useless and overkill.

I think it would be better if they just give him a projectile reflector like Mario's cape. A projectile will also ruin his established moveset.

 

[PhantomShab]

And here we go again with people wanting movesets to be more canon.

No one wants Mario to get his hammer, and people applauded the decision to have Zelda LOSE her signature Light Arrow.

You clearly don't want Mario or Zelda to have their signature weapons, so I guess that makes you a hypocrite.

Go and find the posts where I said that and show them to me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

No one wants Mario to get his hammer, and people applauded the decision to have Zelda LOSE her signature Light Arrow.

Mario and Zelda were given movesets that were always designed to be Mario and Zelda's. Ganondorf's on the other hand wasn't even originally designed to be Falcon's.

 

[Quillion]

Mario and Zelda were given movesets that were always designed to be Mario and Zelda's. Ganondorf's on the other hand wasn't even originally designed to be Falcon's.

The moveset suits his canon abilities well, though. He uses a ground punch in OoT, a kick in WW, and a kick and elbow strike in TP.

Zelda never fought with the goddess spells, and mainly fights with the Light Arrow when possible. Mario stopped using hand-to-hand after 64 and consistently uses a hammer for melee since then.

 

[UserKev]

I think it would be better if they just give him a projectile reflector like Mario's cape. A projectile will also ruin his established moveset.

I disagree. A projectile reflector makes sense but the projectile would be just replacing the Warlock Punch, making him more distinctive from Captain Falcon, becoming completely "Ganondorf".

 

[PhantomShab]

So how did your search go Quillion?

Mario stopped using hand-to-hand after 64 and consistently uses a hammer for melee since then.

Yeah the hammer was pretty fun in Mario Sunshine, both the Galaxy games, Mario 3D World, and Odyssey.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The moveset suits his canon abilities well, though. He uses a ground punch in OoT, a kick in WW, and a kick and elbow strike in TP.

I'm explaining why someone wouldn't want a new Mario/Zelda moveset if they want one for Ganondorf. I understand that he has animation changes to actually be Ganondorf references (including your dreaded sword moves) and because of that I think he only needs a new neutral aerial and neutral B right now.

 

[Sean²]

My thoughts: Ganondorf was fun to play in the older games because no one ever played him. He was so bad, that you only played him for disrespect because you knew you were better than the opponent. Half the time you got a sick kill, you couldn't recover yourself, which was hilarious.

Now if you play him, you're basically just another Ganondorf in the vast sea of Ganondorfs. You were there when it was just a miserable little puddle in the desert, now people who formerly mocked you have come from far and wide to stake a claim in your land since it now bears fruit. Yeah, I've been there.

My solution: Be better than those players to the point where you can win every Ganon ditto you run into. Or just don't play him. I've taken the latter route.

 

[Quillion]

My thoughts: Ganondorf was fun to play in the older games because no one ever played him. He was so bad, that you only played him for disrespect because you knew you were better than the opponent. Half the time you got a sick kill, you couldn't recover yourself, which was hilarious.

Now if you play him, you're basically just another Ganondorf in the vast sea of Ganondorfs. You were there when it was just a miserable little puddle in the desert, now people who formerly mocked you have come from far and wide to stake a claim in your land since it now bears fruit. Yeah, I've been there.

My solution: Be better than those players to the point where you can win every Ganon ditto you run into. Or just don't play him. I've taken the latter route.

My issue is that they could have made Ganondorf better without tacking on those sword moves. They could have just given the old Smashes better frames along with the low-percent kill power.

The sword moves just feel like a betrayal of his established design. Equally bad is how Bowser's animations were changed in Smash 4 and on from a primal monster to a wrestler.

And people are still asking to give Ganon a projectile while still embracing Zelda's lack of her signature projectile. It just makes no sense to me.

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

Was it cool to body people in Brawl and Smash 4, as this hidden boss that nobody even saw coming. Yes. But I've struggled for 8 years over this otherwise dumpster fire of a character and if you're telling me that Ganon became more canon and became better, then I don't give a damn, I'm playing this character. Also, I find it weird that this whole thread is about his smash attacks..... when they aren't very good? I mean unless you only play the bottom of the line on Quickplay, people aren't going to run into your damn sword attacks. They don't "destroy" the opponent unless the opponent sucks, and in that case, I can body people with Bayo's smash attacks. Kill fishing does not work at all if you play someone remotely competent. Ganon is really dope in this game, not because he has a big sword to eat people, but because of his improved speed and aerials, and all his other buffs (eg. better followups from Flame Choke). And when you do get a sick read, then yeah, I'd like to be rewarded with a giant sword, rather than a stubby little elbow.

Finally, Smash has always been big on trying to represent its characters accurately (or at least Sakurai has been). So, yes, if Ganon is better represented through getting his sword, then I'm all for it.

The moveset suits his canon abilities well, though. He uses a ground punch in OoT, a kick in WW, and a kick and elbow strike in TP.

Zelda never fought with the goddess spells, and mainly fights with the Light Arrow when possible. Mario stopped using hand-to-hand after 64 and consistently uses a hammer for melee since then.

Phew, 4/31 of his moves are from the games (obviously not accounting for smash attacks, just to be clear). We averted a crisis there. It's not like we forgot to represent the part where he's literally the Demon King, has mystical powers, has been portrayed with mage-like abilities, and is largely associated with darkness. Nah, he just needs to deck some people in the mouth with fists (and a sword! He has a sword now!)

 

[PhantomShab]

And people are still asking to give Ganon a projectile while still embracing Zelda's lack of her signature projectile. It just makes no sense to me.

The very first time I saw Link's final smash I thought to myself "that's literally just Zelda's but re-skinned why even bother". I thought it was dumb. Sakurai kind of has this weird thing for making the Zelda character representation a complete mess as I'm sure you've noticed. I mean I can at least buy the idea of Zelda going to the Great Fairies herself and getting those spells. What are the Great Fairies gonna say, "no"? lol

As for Mario you still haven't told me where all these games are where he's using a hammer instead of spinning or jumping on enemies.

The thing is though this thread is about Ganondorf and how memers are pissed because the character isn't complete garbage anymore. That's probably why Mario and Zelda aren't cropping up in the discussion here.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Ganon's sword attacks are newb slayers. They're large and powerful but slow enough that they're really hard to land on a player who knows how to respect them. When I run into a smash attack happy Ganon on quickplay, I see it as an easy win if I don't get too careless.

To land them against players who know what they're doing, you still have to outplay them either by punishing a habit with hard read or by getting them into disadvantage first (easier said then done with Ganon's underwhelming neutral).

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Let me think of potential alternatives titles for this topic that describes TC's arguments in a nutshell:

"Watch me use mental gymnastics to tell you why Ganondorf was better when he was bad"

"Help! I don't feel special enough playing Ganondorf now!"

"Why being worse = the best. Describing 'disrespect' as a nebulous gameplay style"

"Now that Ganon is objectively better, he is objectively worse"

I get it TC. You felt special using Ganondorf before but now that he is better and more people are using him, that is not the case. Boo-****ing-hoo.

You are impressionable and you care too much about what other people do, so you decided that you can't enjoy something unless you are only one doing it.

The Ganondorf in Smash I came to love was one who got in close and destroyed opponents for making stupid mistakes.

Couldn't have said it any better

So you want Ganondorf to be terrible again?

You know that in previous Smash games Ganondorf's everything is what got him destroyed in most matchups, right?

I think these two sentences exemplify why some kinds of fan feedback are never to be taken into account. I just don't think that is something a sane person would say to explain why a character was better before when he was worse.

 

[UltimateXsniper]

My issue is that they could have made Ganondorf better without tacking on those sword moves. They could have just given the old Smashes better frames along with the low-percent kill power.

Yeah they probably didn't need a sword. After all, I don't recall Ganondorf ever using a sword other than like a demo or something. But I definitely wanted Ganondorf to have a more unique moveset so I'll take the sword honestly. Could've been done differently but at least it's something.

The sword moves just feel like a betrayal of his established design. Equally bad is how Bowser's animations were changed in Smash 4 and on from a primal monster to a wrestler.

Those same "primal monster" animations also made Bowser skate around the stage. And it's not like he is a primal monster now these days. I mean the man shows some style in that white outfit in Odyssey.

As for Mario you still haven't told me where all these games are where he's using a hammer instead of spinning or jumping on enemies.

I believe in the Mario & Luigi games and Paper Mario. I can't really recall Mario using a hammer in the main games other than that hammer suit in SMB3. I'll be down to see his hammer replace his current Fair, but I can't imagine his hammer taking up more moves.

 

[MacSmitty]

Why are people talking as if Ganondorf wasn't common during the 4 days? Thanks to the YouTube function along with several Smash youtubers, Ganondorf was a common character to be used as a "I'm gonna end this man's whole career" levels of disrepect online. He wasn't Cloud, Bayo or Mario levels common, but still common enough.

 

[MaddaD]

The Ganondorf in Smash I came to love was one who got in close and destroyed opponents for making stupid mistakes.

Couldn't have said it any better.

Isn't that what Ganon today is? A slow, lumbering character with a bad recovery who punishes the opponent for being caught mid combo?

Also, Ganon was midtier at best in Melee and completely unplayable in Brawl. This idea of "going back to the old days" would make him worse off than ever.

 

[PhantomShab]

Why are people talking as if Ganondorf wasn't common during the 4 days? Thanks to the YouTube function along with several Smash youtubers, Ganondorf was a common character to be used as a "I'm gonna end this man's whole career" levels of disrepect online. He wasn't Cloud, Bayo or Mario levels common, but still common enough.

Yeah I fought a ton of For Glory Ganondorf's back in Smash 4. Using him back then didn't make you some special little snowflake.

 

[Quillion]

People are equating "competitively viable" to "fun to play". You need to realize that viability isn't the whole story here.

Here's what I think: Yes, I appreciate how they gave him slightly better mobility. I appreciate how they gave his aerials better frames. This is the sort of thing you do to make a character better between games.

Ganondorf's smashes are how you don't make a character better between games. Smash attacks are a crucial move slot for all characters due to their role in being finishers. But it's not enough for the moves to be good, they need to mechanically and thematically fit within the moveset.

And this is why the sword smashes are enough to ruin playing as him for me. Yes, the range makes them better (except for usmash debatably), but they just don't fit his playstyle. Mechanically, Ganondorf is supposed to be about close, strong hits, so there's no reason for his smashes to have massive hitboxes. Thematically, Ganondorf is supposed to be about raw physical strength with no need for projectiles or weapons, so there's no need for the animations to involve a sword.

I assure you, if his Smashes had the increased power of his sword smashes, but the old animations from Smash 4 AND frames as good as the Smash 4 u-Smash, MORE people would be happy than just tacking on those sword moves. That way he would have the viability that people prioritize, and NO ONE would be unhappy about his Smashes being changed.

 

[Necro'lic]

I assure you, if his Smashes had the increased power of his sword smashes, but the old animations from Smash 4 AND frames as good as the Smash 4 u-Smash, MORE people would be happy than just tacking on those sword moves. That way he would have the viability that people prioritize, and NO ONE would be unhappy about his Smashes being changed.

"I assure you"

Are you really sure though. This sounds like a lot of projection you are throwing out here.

 

[MaddaD]

People are equating "competitively viable" to "fun to play". You need to realize that viability isn't the whole story here.

No, it's the ENTIRE story here. What you mean is "I don't find new Ganon fun but don't want to admit that the changes made him better as a character."

Ganondorf's smashes are how you don't make a character better between games. Smash attacks are a crucial move slot for all characters due to their role in being finishers. But it's not enough for the moves to be good, they need to mechanically and thematically fit within the moveset. And this is why the sword smashes are enough to ruin playing as him for me. Yes, the range makes them better (except for usmash debatably), but they just don't fit his playstyle.

How don't they fit thematically then? In multiple Ganon appearances, he's both shown/used a sword for attacking.
Does this mean that character kits can't ever change once they're put in the game?

I assure you, if his Smashes had the increased power of his sword smashes, but the old animations from Smash 4 AND frames as good as the Smash 4 u-Smash, MORE people would be happy than just tacking on those sword moves. That way he would have the viability that people prioritize, and NO ONE would be unhappy about his Smashes being changed.

In Smash Ultimate? No they wouldn't. Not when a good chunk of the cast can not only outrange a super up close character, but lock him out of attacking when speed and damage are the main staples of the "meta" (which Ganon lacks the former)

 

[Guynamednelson]

NO ONE would be unhappy about his Smashes being changed.

It's only like maybe 3 people who are unhappy about the new smash attacks.

 

[Gobthor]

I get it TC. You felt special using Ganondorf before but now that he is better and more people are using him, that is not the case. Boo-****ing-hoo.

People are only using him because the philosophy behind the character has changed completely.

Buffing Ganondorf by giving him big sweeping smash attacks is not what Ganondorf had been at all... ever.

When I say I liked Ganondorf more when he was bad does not mean I want him to be bad, I just want him to be good in a different kind of way. You come off as hostile and toxic by jumping to conclusions based on assumptions. Mellow down buddy.

No, it's the ENTIRE story here. What you mean is "I don't find new Ganon fun but don't want to admit that the changes made him better as a character."

They make him higher tier, there is other ways of buffing a character other than changing what the characters been all about for 18 years by adding big hitbox swords.

In Smash Ultimate? No they wouldn't. Not when a good chunk of the cast can not only outrange a super up close character, but lock him out of attacking when speed and damage are the main staples of the "meta" (which Ganon lacks the former)

That's why there has also been discussion of giving him a projectile/deflect in this thread.

 

[Necro'lic]

That's why there has also been discussion of giving him a projectile/deflect in this thread.

But that would go against the archetype of Ganondorf being a complete non-threat against zoners (and everything else) and we can't have that.

 

[Gobthor]

But that would go against the archetype of Ganondorf being a complete non-threat against zoners (and everything else)

Being bad against a certain group of characters ("and everything else") is generally not intended as part of any characters archetype. It's just adapting him to be playable in the new meta. If you want to say its "changing his archetype" by giving him a projectile it's definitely a more modest and acceptable change.

 

[MacSmitty]

They make him higher tier, there is other ways of buffing a character other than changing what the characters been all about for 18 years by adding big hitbox swords.

What, being a slow powerhouse? He's still that type of character even with the sword.

 

[Gobthor]

What, being a slow powerhouse? He's still that type of character even with the sword.

Yes, he is. But your description of him is too simplified. He's a slow powerhouse of course, but his gameplay was rewarding by being precise and having a good combo game (unless we are talking about Brawl, as we all know.) I don't see any Ganondorf combos anymore. My perfect idea of Ganondorf is from Melee, a slow powerhouse who punish with hard hitting combos and precise attacks. Ganondorf isn't very rewarding for skilled players anymore.

 

[MaddaD]

They make him higher tier, there is other ways of buffing a character other than changing what the characters been all about for 18 years by adding big hitbox swords.

It was done most likely because so many other characters filled the roll, and Ganon needed something to actually compensate for the lack of range he had, even if giving him sweeping attacks is "against muh Ganondorf theme".

And to pre-empt this, Ganon's moves are about as subtle as an atomic bomb. If you're consistently getting hit with his smash attacks, you should probably start reading into when he's going to use them.

That's why there has also been discussion of giving him a projectile/deflect in this thread.

He doesn't need a projectile or a deflect. His main role is to be a dominating presence on stage but suffer from a lack of speed and horizontal recovery.
If you truly do believe that among Ganon's issues are the lack of a projectile or deflect, I highly encourage you to actually play the character before posting again.

And according to Quill:

Thematically, Ganondorf is supposed to be about raw physical strength with no need for projectiles or weapons...

By his logic, the change wouldn't fit with Ganon at all.