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I hink I leared tonight why Fox is one of teh most difficult characters

Foxus

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to take up in Smash (yes, I let the title bleed into the message).

Fox is a flawed character. You have two options with Fox, either get up close and personal (which is a horribly bad idea if you are facing of the Link's or Cloud, let alone Shulk) or you roll and spam the hell out of his blaster to rack up damage, Either way, Fox is a combative character. Losing just about every single match in For Glory, I came to the conclusion that:

- Fox is naturally going to struggle dealing with sword-equipped characters, like Link.
- Characters like Mario, or Ryu, are realistic match-ups for Fox. Characters like Cloud or Capt Falcon are out of the question.
- You have to go in straight for the kill with Fox, otherwise you'll just be spamming the hell out of your blaster.

I've also become skeptical Fox is anywhere close to being a top-tier character, mid-tier at best from how he performs.
It feels as if you need to be Sakurai to main Fox.
 

ZeroJanitor

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Fox's strong suit is bait-and-punish. You use his mobility and safe options to put your opponent into a bad position, then capitalize on it. When I play Fox, I try to stay mostly mid-range and try to threaten the opponent with sh bair or nair, while moving around and trying to read or avoid their counter-options. Fox is much better than mid-tier, it's just about understanding the best game plan with him.
 

luke_atyeo

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The reason fox is hard is not really matchups, he has good matchups across the board, or options, he's always got good options.

The reason fox is hard is because he's a really technical character which means you are gonna make more mistakes then usual when trying to play him as best as you can, coupled with the fact that every mistake you make on fox gets punished way harder than usual.
Basically, every mistake you make can cost you a stock, which is rough because when you are playing against other players around your skill level (espcially at high level) its impossible to not make mistakes, you'll make a lot of mistakes against people around your level, and it costs you a lot.

Tl;DR fox is hard because you have to play perfect with him to not get ****ed on.


Also using your own personal experience to base an entire character potential is generally not a good way to think about things, and if you think fox has trouble with link, you are really doing something wrong because fox absolutely destroys link. (offline at least, for glory means nothing, dont base your opinions about the game on for glory stuff)
 

G-Sword

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There are links out there that might give u trouble but once u get around links projectiles its strongly in fox's favor. U are just not playing fox right. As stated he is very technical and probably the most difficult character to master because u cannot just pick him up and be good. U cannot just spam attacks wildly and hope u hit something like other characters. He requires alot of patience, understanding of match ups, combos, punish combos, understanding of all his moves, when to throw them out, how they hit and the opponent will react/be at next after the hit to so u can continue to punish or back off, his defensive agility (not just shielding and spot dodging). He is not a character like c.falcon, Mario, yoshi where u can just pick up spam a few things and be good with. U MUST NOT SPAM ANY ATTACKS hoping they hit. U also need a fast reaction and patience is key. Being unpredictable is a big key as well. Once played the right way u can take an opponent from 0-100% within less than 30 seconds. Lasers are great to use but should not be spammed unless opponent is not approaching and u can time putting ur gun back away so u don't get punished. His defensive abilities need to be used. Most people love just being to aggressive or not defensive enough. He is mobile but light for a reason. His defensive agility game is the best. He is definitely top tier but he is very difficult to play that's why people think he is just mid-tier. That's why I love that he is very difficult because we don't have everyone trying to play him.
 
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Foxus

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The reason fox is hard is not really matchups, he has good matchups across the board, or options, he's always got good options.

The reason fox is hard is because he's a really technical character which means you are gonna make more mistakes then usual when trying to play him as best as you can, coupled with the fact that every mistake you make on fox gets punished way harder than usual.
Basically, every mistake you make can cost you a stock, which is rough because when you are playing against other players around your skill level (espcially at high level) its impossible to not make mistakes, you'll make a lot of mistakes against people around your level, and it costs you a lot.

Tl;DR fox is hard because you have to play perfect with him to not get ****ed on.


Also using your own personal experience to base an entire character potential is generally not a good way to think about things, and if you think fox has trouble with link, you are really doing something wrong because fox absolutely destroys link. (offline at least, for glory means nothing, dont base your opinions about the game on for glory stuff)
Hold on there partner, just where are you getting that idea from?

Fox's attacks are close range, so he attacks aren't going to go far.
Cloud Fox is toast
Sonic poses Fox a reasonable challenge

Fox is a mid-tier character at best, and I doubt any charts or stats ranking him above that. He is just not high tier material. I laughed at the "You're doing something wrong" in referencing Link. Getting around Link's projectiles, yes, otherwise Fox is more than likely dead meat (well, with the Link, Link, but the Toon Link).

Fox, like Mario for example, is truly effective when you can get in and stay in for the kill, otherwise like Mario,you have to spam your way in. Fox moves as fast, and no faster than Pikachu (which is why someone at the speed of Pikachu and slower is a fair matchup for Fox, thus why Cloud and Sonic are out of the question).

I'll give it to Fox for the recovery bit, his recovery is much better than Yoshi's, let alone Little Mac's, although in some ways in how Fox is setup, you could compare him to Little Mac, just not in recoveries though.
I think you're giving Fox a wee bit too much credit.
 
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Jeronado

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Dude, Fox is very likely a top 10 character. Pretty sure this has been the general consensus for months now. There is absolutely no way that Fox loses to Link when he has: a Reflector, a good projectile to pressure him, superior mobility, and better frame data. Your issues with sword characters is probably just you not properly respecting their disjointed hitboxes. Here's a set of a Fox vs Roy as an example of how Fox fights against swords:
Also you really shouldn't be basing character placing off of just your own opinion. Especially if you're mostly playing online.
 

G-Sword

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Hold on there partner, just where are you getting that idea from?

Fox's attacks are close range, so he attacks aren't going to go far.
Cloud Fox is toast
Sonic poses Fox a reasonable challenge

Fox is a mid-tier character at best, and I doubt any charts or stats ranking him above that. He is just not high tier material. I laughed at the "You're doing something wrong" in referencing Link. Getting around Link's projectiles, yes, otherwise Fox is more than likely dead meat (well, with the Link, Link, but the Toon Link).

Fox, like Mario for example, is truly effective when you can get in and stay in for the kill, otherwise like Mario,you have to spam your way in. Fox moves as fast, and no faster than Pikachu (which is why someone at the speed of Pikachu and slower is a fair matchup for Fox, thus why Cloud and Sonic are out of the question).

I'll give it to Fox for the recovery bit, his recovery is much better than Yoshi's, let alone Little Mac's, although in some ways in how Fox is setup, you could compare him to Little Mac, just not in recoveries thoany.
I think you're giving Fox a wee bit too much credit.
Sorry but once again u are not playing fox right if u think cloud is impossible for fox. I play against one of the top players in nation (rayquaza from Michigan) just about any character he plays is top level. He is a genius in smash games period. He can play your main character and beat u with him type good. On zero's level type good u can look him up. I played against his cloud and beat him. Toon link is winnable as well. I played against people on FG that just spammed projectiles all game. Very good players and still beat them. Bottom line u need to change how u play fox.
 
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Foxus

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Sorry but once again u are not playing fox right if u think cloud is impossible for fox. I play against one of the top players in nation (rayquaza from Michigan) just about any character he plays is top level. He is a genius in smash games period. He can play your main character and beat u with him type good. On zero's level type good u can look him up. I played against his cloud and beat him. Toon link is winnable as well. I played against people on FG that just spammed projectiles all game. Very good players and still beat them. Bottom line u need to change how u play fox.
How do you suggest I play ox differently, knowing that I I have to play it combative?

I don't allow people to beat me with a fellow Fox, they can use Falco, but not Fox. If there's a mortal sin when it comes to Smash, its letting someone else win with your main.
 

G-Sword

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How do you suggest I play ox differently, knowing that I I have to play it combative?

I don't allow people to beat me with a fellow Fox, they can use Falco, but not Fox. If there's a mortal sin when it comes to Smash, its letting someone else win with your main.
Well trust he is that good that he will beat u using fox. It depends I don't how exactly how u play. If I seen videos of you playing I know how to adjust your playstyle. But I gave tips in the post above. In michigan there three top fox players and we all play differently the other two almost play the same way, very aggressive. I play as a hybrid of aggressive/defensive. I use to play somewhat campy but it didn't work out I blasted too many lasers. Than I got very aggressive that didn't work out either cuz of fox's short range. I changed up now where I'm a hybrid of aggressive/defensive aka defensive but very aggressive. U need to learn when to engage when not to. How to punish every single move, moment or action the opponent makes but still making sure u don't make a mistake and get hit.
 

EpicSonicLatios

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Hold on there partner, just where are you getting that idea from?

Fox's attacks are close range, so he attacks aren't going to go far.
Cloud Fox is toast
Sonic poses Fox a reasonable challenge

Fox is a mid-tier character at best, and I doubt any charts or stats ranking him above that. He is just not high tier material. I laughed at the "You're doing something wrong" in referencing Link. Getting around Link's projectiles, yes, otherwise Fox is more than likely dead meat (well, with the Link, Link, but the Toon Link).

Fox, like Mario for example, is truly effective when you can get in and stay in for the kill, otherwise like Mario,you have to spam your way in. Fox moves as fast, and no faster than Pikachu (which is why someone at the speed of Pikachu and slower is a fair matchup for Fox, thus why Cloud and Sonic are out of the question).

I'll give it to Fox for the recovery bit, his recovery is much better than Yoshi's, let alone Little Mac's, although in some ways in how Fox is setup, you could compare him to Little Mac, just not in recoveries though.
I think you're giving Fox a wee bit too much credit.
Fox is actually one of the best close range characters in the game. The thing you need to consider is that his attacks are very fast, so he can often attack before sword characters can. They may have longer range, but your moves are faster, so you have the advantage if you get really close. You also have to consider that many sword moves have high endlag, so if you can bait them out you will have ample time to punish them for trying to space you out. Dash attack is a lighting quick frame 4, and because of this can punish laggy moves with ease provided you respect the range of your opponent and bait them into thinking they can hit you, when they really can't.

Also, about your statement about fox's speed, where are you getting that information? Fox is the 4th fastest character in the game In run speed, which is extremely good in a game with 56 characters. He also has the 3rd fastest walking speed, a wall jump, the highest fall and fast fall speed in the game, the fastest vertical air speed, and his frame data is good enough to compete even with sonic. Fox is a lot faster than cloud and pikachu, and he still has the tools to compete with the 3 characters that do run faster, especially since fox's speed extends past his amazing run speed.
 

Rhus

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Although people like to label Fox as a rushdown character, "bait and punish" or "In-out" describes his game much more accurately.

luke_atyeo luke_atyeo summed up why Fox is difficult quite nicely. Fox is a tremendously versatile character with tools to handle almost every character in the game, but properly executing those options is quite challenging. Fox has a lot of picky inputs, and his physics make input errors both common and terribly punishable. Because of this, Fox mains have to spend a lot of time making sure their inputs are clean and accurate.

This problem is further accentuated by Fox's lightweight, low melee range because he's pretty short, and overall bad priority with very few attacks that linger to protect him. Most of Fox's attacks only have a few active hitbox frames, which discourages lazy attacking and gives incentive to be very precise with your hits. Additionally, because Fox's attacks will rarely win in a priority battle, he has been balanced as an "In-out" character that focuses on engaging and disengaging close fights. If you watch many top Fox's, they disorient people and encourage them to commit to an attack, where his lightning speed allows him to get in fast, get some damage on, and leave just outside of the enemy's range. This playstyle applies constant pressure, and Fox is really fast so your opponent can't just swing wildly while you are close or they're going to lose a stock.

Fox can fight characters like Cloud because he's really really fast. He can weave between Cloud's wide hitting swipes with his dash speed, fall speed, and vertical acceleration. Sure Cloud has the range advantage, priority advantage and kills us earlier, but who doesn't have those advantages against Fox? Fox is a character with a lot of serious weaknesses, but you also have to realize that Fox's speed and combos are such incredible strengths that both overwhelm and outcamp so many characters.

Bottom line; Fox isn't good at surviving. He's not good at spacing people away, recovering or edgeguarding. But he's really good at being probably the fastest character overall in the game when taking fall speed, dash speed, vertical acceleration and frame data into account. Fox is really good at being fast.
 

MordhauDerk

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Sorry, but a lot of the information in your original post is bad (in my opinion)
First, I think Fox wrecks Cloud and Link fairly hard in the match up. Not because of he can camp, but because he can rush down Link/Cloud and completely overwhelm them with his attacks, speed and follow-ups. Fox can even ledge guard these 2 moderately easily(Cloud being much easier than Link).
Baiting is also a good strategy because both Link and Cloud have quite a bit of start-up and cool-down on about half of their moves. If they throw one out, just make sure you're out of range and punish them, Fox's ground-speed and fast-fall speed make him great at this.
These 2 characters might be able to out-range Fox, but they are definitely not strong counter-picks. Cloud might actually be better simply because of true combos -> Finishing Touch.
 

Foxus

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Fact is I am a "seeing is believing" type of dude, so unless I see results with Fox, I'm going to naturally believe he is a overall weak character. Sorry if that seems stubborn, but I am extremely serious when it comes to my performance in Smash (lots of losses are accountable to bad performance, and bad performance is not acceptable in Smash Bros) . If Fox were real, I would be like Gordon Ramsey with him (Why'd you lose you furry tard, are you good enough to be in Smash Bros? Losing fighters aren't allowed in Smash Bros).

Okay, I'll say that Fox is a bit faster than Pikachu, but that chart seems a bit of a exaggeration (what stage was that recorded on, Wily's Castle?). However, Fox and ZZS seem about right. Fox couldn't be compared to Little Mac in speed, let alone Captain Falcon or Sonic.

Fox is touted as a Top 10 character in a general consensus?
Fox is touted as a very versatile character?

Okay, I'll believe it when I see the results.
 

ZeroJanitor

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All I can say is that if you really find Fox this unrewarding to use, maybe you should turn your attention to other characters.
 

G-Sword

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All I can say is that if you really find Fox this unrewarding to use, maybe you should turn your attention to other characters.
Just because his results aren't good he thinks he is a weak character. He is basing it all on his own personal experience and results with fox nothing else. As stated fox is not for u try switching characters. And that chart is not an exaggeration u are just being in denial. The difference in speed is not much but fox is faster than pikachu. And you see the numbers sonic and c.falcon are faster than fox. By a good amount for sonic that accurate but not much by c.falcon which is acxurate as well. I don't see anything wrong with it. And lil Mac is not that much faster than fox. Those numbers are proven not just something made up from opinion. The numbers look right.
 
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Rhus

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Okay, I'll say that Fox is a bit faster than Pikachu, but that chart seems a bit of a exaggeration (what stage was that recorded on, Wily's Castle?). However, Fox and ZZS seem about right. Fox couldn't be compared to Little Mac in speed, let alone Captain Falcon or Sonic.
Fox is faster than Pikachu, and can definitely be compared to Mac, Sonic and Falcon in overall speed. His dash speed is a little less, but keep in mind that he has faster vertical acceleration and fall speed. He also has great autocancels from platforms, short hops, full hops, and on ledges. The key to unlocking Fox's speed relies on your ability to utilize all his tools; his incredible initial dash, his fantastic jump acceleration, the best (fast) fall speed, his huge perfect pivot and his autocancels.

I honestly struggle to think of a character that competes with Fox in gameplay speed, due to how fast Fox is at everything.
 

MordhauDerk

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Fact is I am a "seeing is believing" type of dude, so unless I see results with Fox, I'm going to naturally believe he is a overall weak character. Sorry if that seems stubborn, but I am extremely serious when it comes to my performance in Smash (lots of losses are accountable to bad performance, and bad performance is not acceptable in Smash Bros) . If Fox were real, I would be like Gordon Ramsey with him (Why'd you lose you furry tard, are you good enough to be in Smash Bros? Losing fighters aren't allowed in Smash Bros).

Okay, I'll say that Fox is a bit faster than Pikachu, but that chart seems a bit of a exaggeration (what stage was that recorded on, Wily's Castle?). However, Fox and ZZS seem about right. Fox couldn't be compared to Little Mac in speed, let alone Captain Falcon or Sonic.

Fox is touted as a Top 10 character in a general consensus?
Fox is touted as a very versatile character?

Okay, I'll believe it when I see the results.
http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/teams
Fox is top 7 in SmashBoards League tourney results (when counting only 1st place wins).
Results are pretty definitive.
 
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Foxus

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All I can say is that if you really find Fox this unrewarding to use, maybe you should turn your attention to other characters.
Dude, I gave up Yoshi after using him since Melee because he was moving too slow for me and his recovery was too weak here in Smash 4. The attractiveness to Fox is he has a recovery that could save his life is need be. I can't begin to count the instances I've recovered with Fox that I would not have come close with Yoshi.

I never chose another character but Fox, because choosing any other character will throw me off big time. The rewarding part is in the wins.

And I'll try to get a replay video up, though each time before I get off Smash I continuously am deleting save data.
 

EpicSonicLatios

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Watch this set: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=57866S8zcek

Here, Larry lurr, one of the best fox players, defeats one of the best sheik players, and sheik is considered the best characters in the game. Not only that, but the general consensus on fox is that he is top 10, with his weaknesses more than countered by his strengths. If you are having trouble with fox, I would consider taking a break from online matches so you can take time to practice his key inputs so that you are less prone to making mistakes with fox, costing you stocks in games. I don't know how you play, but I am assuming that this is the main reason why you are struggling.

Another issue I think you have is that you just don't know what fox's actual strengths are. The people that think fox is top 10 don't cite recovery as a major strength. In fact, his recovery is actually extremely exploitable at a high level of play. His strengths lie in his ridiculous overall speed, his damage racking abilities which are among the best in the game, and his awesome frame data which allows him to strike first on slower characters, and fox is probably one of the top 3 characters in the game in speed, considering everything speed related about him. If you abuse his damage racking abilities and speed, instead of relying on other things that fox isn't really good at, you will be much more effective and find that his weaknesses are mitigated if you play accurately, quickly, and intelligently.
 

MordhauDerk

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Watch this set: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=57866S8zcek

Here, Larry lurr, one of the best fox players, defeats one of the best sheik players, and sheik is considered the best characters in the game. Not only that, but the general consensus on fox is that he is top 10, with his weaknesses more than countered by his strengths. If you are having trouble with fox, I would consider taking a break from online matches so you can take time to practice his key inputs so that you are less prone to making mistakes with fox, costing you stocks in games. I don't know how you play, but I am assuming that this is the main reason why you are struggling.

Another issue I think you have is that you just don't know what fox's actual strengths are. The people that think fox is top 10 don't cite recovery as a major strength. In fact, his recovery is actually extremely exploitable at a high level of play. His strengths lie in his ridiculous overall speed, his damage racking abilities which are among the best in the game, and his awesome frame data which allows him to strike first on slower characters, and fox is probably one of the top 3 characters in the game in speed, considering everything speed related about him. If you abuse his damage racking abilities and speed, instead of relying on other things that fox isn't really good at, you will be much more effective and find that his weaknesses are mitigated if you play accurately, quickly, and intelligently.
I don't think Foxus wants to listen to us. He said he won't believe Fox is good until he sees results, but when I gave him SmashBoards' League results, I got nothing back.
I think it may be better to just save your figurative breath.
That was a sweet match, btw.
 

Foxus

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Watch this set: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=57866S8zcek

Here, Larry lurr, one of the best fox players, defeats one of the best sheik players, and sheik is considered the best characters in the game. Not only that, but the general consensus on fox is that he is top 10, with his weaknesses more than countered by his strengths. If you are having trouble with fox, I would consider taking a break from online matches so you can take time to practice his key inputs so that you are less prone to making mistakes with fox, costing you stocks in games. I don't know how you play, but I am assuming that this is the main reason why you are struggling.

Another issue I think you have is that you just don't know what fox's actual strengths are. The people that think fox is top 10 don't cite recovery as a major strength. In fact, his recovery is actually extremely exploitable at a high level of play. His strengths lie in his ridiculous overall speed, his damage racking abilities which are among the best in the game, and his awesome frame data which allows him to strike first on slower characters, and fox is probably one of the top 3 characters in the game in speed, considering everything speed related about him. If you abuse his damage racking abilities and speed, instead of relying on other things that fox isn't really good at, you will be much more effective and find that his weaknesses are mitigated if you play accurately, quickly, and intelligently.
Often, what I do at the beginning of a match, if I am placed next to a sword-bearing character in a free for all, like Lucina, I will jump backwards, and come in with a down smash. Often, instead of running to the other side of the stage, I use the Fox Illusion, which could use a bit tidying up on the end lag. Reluctantly admitting, I loathe to watch or battle against better Fox's, which is why I'll disconnect during battle if I am the one of the south end. Let's remember Fox doesn't really have any meteor smash to him, so he's not one to go punishing someone trying to recover like you could Ganondorf or Mario (or Yoshi, if you time it right).

Be specific on his key inputs, I need to know what exactly they are, and how to execute them to a T. How I mainly roll in anything is by trial and error, but in Smash there is never any room for error.

MordhauDerk MordhauDerk , that is not at all the case. Sorry if you got that impression, but its incorrect. Yes, I want to see it for myself, but I am not closing myself off completely.
 
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MordhauDerk

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Often, what I do at the beginning of a match, if I am placed next to a sword-bearing character in a free for all, like Lucina, I will jump backwards, and come in with a down smash. Often, instead of running to the other side of the stage, I use the Fox Illusion, which could use a bit tidying up on the end lag. Reluctantly admitting, I loathe to watch or battle against better Fox's, which is why I'll disconnect during battle if I am the one of the south end. Let's remember Fox doesn't really have any meteor smash to him, so he's not one to go punishing someone trying to recover like you could Ganondorf or Mario (or Yoshi, if you time it right).

Be specific on his key inputs, I need to know what exactly they are, and how to execute them. How I mainly roll in anything is by trial and error, but in Smash there is never any room for error.
Could you please post a replay of one of your matches? So we can actually give you some specific pointers. I feel like we aren't getting anywhere in this thread.
 

Foxus

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Could you please post a replay of one of your matches? So we can actually give you some specific pointers. I feel like we aren't getting anywhere in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWyrBId9yG0

Here. Its a older video I meant to take off at the beginning of December, since I was only going to leave it up for a month.
PS: Gamer's not the best stage for free-4-alls.
 
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FamouslyUnknown

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This thread feels like either troll bait or Foxus really does not understand the game on a competitive level. Either way I don't feel that there is even a point to respond to him unless he really wants to get good at the game.
 

Foxus

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This thread feels like either troll bait or Foxus really does not understand the game on a competitive level. Either way I don't feel that there is even a point to respond to him unless he really wants to get good at the game.
If I wanted to troll, I wouldn't take the time out to craft the responses I do. Believe me, this isn't a troll thread, nor is it intended as a "circle jerk" type of thing.
 

EpicSonicLatios

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First of all, a video titled "total onslaught of fox", on gamer, in a FFA, in for fun, in a 2 minute match, is not an accurate way for me to judge your skill in a 1v1 match. Fox is worse in FFA than 1v1, so if you can get a 1v1 match that would be good. If not I really can't help you.

Also, if you refuse to watch better fox's play, that is like saying you refuse to admit that you are worse than anyone, when clearly you need to watch some videos. I'm by no means a professional fox player, but I still enjoy watching other fox's like Larry play. In fact, the better you get, the less necessary it is for you to watch videos of other people playing your character, because you already know so much about them. I know that these players are better than me, and denying that these players, who place highly at tournaments all the time, are not better than me, is silly. The only way to improve is to accept defeat and learn from it.

The fact that I am even posting in this thread shows how bored I am, and that I have too much time on my hands..........
 
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Foxus

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Greatfox1
First of all, a video titled "total onslaught of fox", on gamer, in a FFA, in for fun, in a 2 minute match, is not an accurate way for me to judge your skill in a 1v1 match. Fox is worse in FFA than 1v1, so if you can get a 1v1 match that would be good. If not I really can't help you.

Also, if you refuse to watch better fox's play, that is like saying you refuse to admit that you are worse than anyone, when clearly you need to watch some videos. I'm by no means a professional fox player, but I still enjoy watching other fox's like Larry play. In fact, the better you get, the less necessary it is for you to watch videos of other people playing your character, because you already know so much about them. I know that these players are better than me, and denying that these players, who place highly at tournaments all the time, are not better than me, is silly. The only way to improve is to accept defeat and learn from it.

The fact that I am even posting in this thread shows how bored I am, and that I have too much time on my hands..........
I don't have the guts to go in FG, in fact I rarely have since I got Smash 4 a year ago (same for Classic Mode). I used those four choices of words as a way to describe the match.

I think Zero posted a Fox tutorial I tried following once. Didn't help me much, and I posted as a YouTube comment for him to go more into detail, instead of just saying what the moves were. I am a hands on type of learner, so I can read the guides and wear my eyes out watching videos til the cows come home, but none of it will register in my brain unless I'm doing it in real time (which is what makes training partners so handy for people like me). I am not a lost cause, nor is this thread.

Trust me, any day now I could say "I give up, this game is too difficult for me" but I won't. I have been using Smash since its inception, it would take something big, like a Comic Con defeat, to make me never want to pick up Smash again.

So I don't understand the competitive side of Smash, so what? I didn't even know that was a thing until Smash 4 came out (I didn't think people actually took Smash that seriously). I still don't fully understand all the terms, or even what a "hitbox" is (I've never heard of that term before prior to Smash 4).

But then again, til this game came out, I didn't know who Mega Man was.
 
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Dark Dire Wolf

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
419
Fact is I am a "seeing is believing" type of dude, so unless I see results with Fox, I'm going to naturally believe he is a overall weak character. Sorry if that seems stubborn, but I am extremely serious when it comes to my performance in Smash (lots of losses are accountable to bad performance, and bad performance is not acceptable in Smash Bros) . If Fox were real, I would be like Gordon Ramsey with him (Why'd you lose you furry tard, are you good enough to be in Smash Bros? Losing fighters aren't allowed in Smash Bros).

Okay, I'll say that Fox is a bit faster than Pikachu, but that chart seems a bit of a exaggeration (what stage was that recorded on, Wily's Castle?). However, Fox and ZZS seem about right. Fox couldn't be compared to Little Mac in speed, let alone Captain Falcon or Sonic.

Fox is touted as a Top 10 character in a general consensus?
Fox is touted as a very versatile character?

Okay, I'll believe it when I see the results.
What results are you waiting for? Fox played by SH in a major Japan tournament just got first place just a few days ago, and Fox players have regularly made it to the top 16 in majors.
 
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EpicSonicLatios

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2015
Messages
94
If you REALLY wanted to improve, you would risk a loss or two, or 3, on FG to get a few videos up here. If you can do that, we might be able to figure out why you are losing, but that is the only way we could help at all. In the long run, it will be worth it, trust me.
 

Foxus

Smash Ace
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Greatfox1
Foxus you have a lot to learn about Smash as a competitive game, you'll get it eventually
Yes, from what I hear, the competitive-side of Smash is like another language. Also, that part of your brain about adapting and reading moves, yeah somehow that turns off in my brain when a match starts.

Its kill or panic.

What results are you waiting for? Fox played by SH in a major Japan tournament just got first place just a few days ago, and Fox players have regularly made it to the top 16 in majors.
Actually winning with the canine.

Winning streaks across the board. That's how I define results.
 

Dark Dire Wolf

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Messages
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Yes, from what I hear, the competitive-side of Smash is like another language. Also, that part of your brain about adapting and reading moves, yeah somehow that turns off in my brain when a match starts.

Its kill or panic.


Actually winning with the canine.

Winning streaks across the board. That's how I define results.
That falls on you and not on the character then as you've been insinuating. I'm trash at this game myself, but Fox isn't the reason why.

No ones cares about your FG record, you have to jump in if you want to learn.
 

Foxus

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Greatfox1
If you REALLY wanted to improve, you would risk a loss or two, or 3, on FG to get a few videos up here. If you can do that, we might be able to figure out why you are losing, but that is the only way we could help at all. In the long run, it will be worth it, trust me.
Tell ya what, I'l do a match in FG, and put it on here. I've made it a habit to delete my save data every time I get done with Smash, but I'll make sure that replay is up beforehand. It'll be humiliating, but I guess worth it to make Fox a killing machine, take no prisoners.

Just remember, I'm a real time learner, replays will do me no good unless I'm applying the lessons in real time.
Don't think for a second I don't want anyone's help.
 
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G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
209
If u want help than u need to humble yourself stop trying to bash a character u have very little knowledge to play him effectively and admit u really don't know what u are talking and don't know how to play this character. U are afraid to learn from getting ur butt kicked by another fox shows that u don't know nothing about the character because every single one of us even the top players have fought better fox's at one point and have gotten beaten. U being in denial about stats that have been proven by smash vets shows that u have alot of learning and maturity to do. U need to watch videos of fox playing period. Just trying to apply what someone says to u on a message board is not going to work. Watching and putting it to action works. Adapting and reading moves turns off in your head? U want results across the board? Kill or panic? Sounds like u want a easy to use fighter. Than u don't need to play fox competively. He is not easy to use. He is not a character u pick up and just get wins for using him. He has the highest learning curve in the game.
 

Rikke

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I'd argue that Fox is Top 5 any day, hell even contender for best character in the game once you've really adapted to the flow of playing fox. Man when I play fox, I just feel so free, like I have no limits, y'no what I mean? Fox Is all about flow, just go with it man if your gut tells you to do it...then do it...if not...just play it safe. In my opinion Fox ranks up in top 5 because like the 3 blondies he's got a nice dichotomy of offense and defense, andy and every match can be played at YOUR pace if you know how to apply pressure, once there is enough pressure you'll start noticing cracks, start aiming for those cracks and BOOM, there goes your enemies entire game plan....you win.

(sorry this is so sloppy, stayed up all night....Happy New Years Fox boards)
 

Rikke

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If u want help than u need to humble yourself stop trying to bash a character u have very little knowledge to play him effectively and admit u really don't know what u are talking and don't know how to play this character. U are afraid to learn from getting ur butt kicked by another fox shows that u don't know nothing about the character because every single one of us even the top players have fought better fox's at one point and have gotten beaten. U being in denial about stats that have been proven by smash vets shows that u have alot of learning and maturity to do. U need to watch videos of fox playing period. Just trying to apply what someone says to u on a message board is not going to work. Watching and putting it to action works. Adapting and reading moves turns off in your head? U want results across the board? Kill or panic? Sounds like u want a easy to use fighter. Than u don't need to play fox competively. He is not easy to use. He is not a character u pick up and just get wins for using him. He has the highest learning curve in the game.
Chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllll bruuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
Hold on there partner, just where are you getting that idea from?
From being a top level player in my country, having played competitive smash since 2008, been to more than a hundred tournaments, and understanding the game at a deep level. Also having played one of the most knowledgeable links who's developed so much of link's meta (and by playing I mean I know him personally and playing him offline, not online)

That might sound like useless bragging but my point is this, until you have heaps of experience, until you have that deep understanding, its very likely you'll look at a match or situation or matchup and not see the full picture because you dont have a full understanding yet.
If you look at something and dont see the full picture, you'll make misconceptions that are wrong, and then when you strongly defend those misconceptions using your own (very limited and sheltered) experience, you are just going down a road that wont get you anywhere good. You'll be unable to see when you are wrong, and thus unable to fix those gaps in your knowledge, and you'll end up being a strongly opinionated player who doesn't really have any idea what he is talking about.

Fox v link IS a horrible, horrible matchup for link if both players are playing at a strong competitive level. If it's scrubs playing online fox will have trouble because its much harder to weave through projectile spam and get to link than it is to just spam projectiles mindlessly, but once a player gets to a certain skill level and are good enough, it's a walk in the park to just move around links **** and absolutely destroy him. I remember a big fight on the boards about this matchup, and interestingly all the good players with lots of tourney experience agreed that link gets rekt, and everyone who insisted link had the matchup advantage were all new inexperienced online players who overestimated their own knowledge and understanding and had no tourney results. Isn't it funny how that works out?
There's been a few times above where you've made a statement that was then shown to be wrong, and you post free for all match's to show us where you are at, if you are playing free for all matches, then you are not developing the right skillset that leads to a strong tourney player.
When you are new to fox and making claims that all the old good experienced fox players disagree with you on, maybe its time to step back and consider that its far more likely that the 1 person is wrong rather than the every other person being wrong, especially when that 1 person is rather new and has limited knowledge of the meta of the game (by implying things like fox is mid tier and has no results, two things which evidence strongly suggests to be incorrect).

Basically the point I am making is that if you want to get better here's what you need to do
1. step back and realize that you dont know much about the game and thus are likely to be wrong about a lot of the conclusions you reach based on your own playing experience.

2.once you've accepted you dont know much, then you can fix that problem by reading as many different things about the game as possible, watch lots of high level tourney matches, glean knowledge from top players who know their stuff. Basically absorb the knowledge and information from the good players who already have that knowledge and information. But if you can't realize your first problem (being wrong and not realizing your own inexperience) than you'll never be able to fix that problem.

3. Dont take wifi seriously in anyway, wifi is VERY different from offline and does not properly represent the game, it's tourney skillsets, or the meta. Stop playing online and start playing at tourneys.
 

Foxus

Smash Ace
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Greatfox1
So, has anyone taken a look at that replay? Got a copyright claim this morning from YouTube submitted by Nintendo, however the ironic part about that is I'm using Nintendo's service to upload to YouTube, so I technically have permission. Hypocritical much, Nintendo?
I have a second replay, and you'll see how I struggle with sword-fighters. I racked up damage, but somehow the guy wouldn't die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arvyUjEweqk


I don't know about actually going to tourneys. I mean, its already insult to injury when you are 2-stocked or get beaten by your own main, but what about the dignity that is lost when you go to a toruney. I wouldn't go to any that cost money to get in anyway (won't pay a single cent unless I know my opponents are dead meat). Because when money is involved, tourneys become much more personal (let alone if a cash prize is involved).

I hope the people who requested to see the replays will see them within the next 72 hours, because I am going to be removing them thereafter, to save myself public humiliation. As you can tell, I take my performance and reputation as a fighter very seriously, which is part of the reason I hesitate to go to tourneys. I really refrain from using terms like "rekt" and "scrub," because those terms of demeaning to whether side took the blow.
 
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