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DinkDank49

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
2
Location
Nashville, TN
I have a mac secondary that I use to embarrass my bad friends and honestly, the best thing a robin could do is platform camp, play extremely patient with baits and false approaches, and zone with your major projectiles. Once you know what the mac likes as his defensive option you can camp until you find an opening to punish and gimp him early. Be sure to catch high recoveries with mac side-b.
 
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Gamer Cube

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
110
Location
Bountiful, UT
As a Little Mac main, I would honestly say use top platform if battlefield, but don't let us get up-b on you. Camp us out with projectiles and we can do literally nothing. Otherwise, you're in a sticky situation against a Little Mac and you should use someone else for that matchup.
 

Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
2,162
yeah all you should really do in the Mac MU is take the lead and then platform camp his ass until time runs out

such an awfully designed character really
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
1,534
I'm no Little Mac or Robin expert but based on what i've learned about Little Mac in general, he relies a lot (if not solely) on his ground punish game. Meaning he'll be hunting for any kind of move endlag/landing lag.

Knowing that, you can react accordingly by:

1. Using moves with low endlag and/or aerials with low landing lag in neutral.
2. Predicting when he'll go for a punish, then shield/dodge and follow with a punish of your own (most of his punish options are unsafe on shield i think).
3. Getting him out of his comfort zone:
a) Offstage (no explanations needed).
b) In the air (if you can, juggling him is a good way to rack up %, just watch out for counters).
c) Mess up his 'dash dance zone' with projectiles.

When you know what he's up to you can plan a few seconds in advance. E.g. if i short hop and throw a spacing aerial, i know that the second i'll land he's going to rush at me so i fastfall into shield and prepare a good out-of-shield option for a punish (idk the options with Robin but grab maybe?).

Just my 2 cents, i hope it helps in some way.
 
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Gamer Cube

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
110
Location
Bountiful, UT
2. Predicting when he'll go for a punish, then shield/dodge and follow with a punish of your own (most of his punish options are unsafe on shield i think).
Actually, if Little Mac always downward tilts his f-smash, it will destroy your shield. I would recommend either rolling behind unless he is using up-tilt or down smash. Otherwise, we can just down-throw up-b for an easy KO. Not to mention if Little Mac shields, he has some of the best OoS options.

Also just in addition, I heard Gabe uses Ike. I would promote that because he is basically one of the best counter picks. I've completely given up playing with Little Mac with one of my friend's Ike. Otherwise, if you're using Robin, try to launch Mac offstage then hit him with anything if he uses side-b and he's guaranteed to die
 

Xquirtle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
232
Location
Columbus, Ohio
so get a stock lead, then platform camp for the rest of the game. . . .

probably would work, but my goal isn't to make everyone hate me XD
mac is kind of a cancerous character, so thank god that hes terrible. Honestly, abuse the crap out of him since hes so obnoxious to play against, especially online. I never feel bad doing it lol.

Anyway, i also struggle with characters that can create tons of pressure on Robin. Robin just doesn't easily whiff punish characters like mac or Pichu that can dodge away before an out of shield option. And they are just faster in every way, so it feels really hard to win without good reads. Against mac, B mixups, like just throwing it out while charging at weird timings, can work. If you wana use side B, time it way early so he runs into it or has to jump over it (he sucks in the air so you will 100% win an aerial trade with him jumping). Using arc fire even remotely foolishly will just result in him running under it and dash attacking you. Hes also going to die 100% of the time if you hit him with a levin sword neutral air off stage, and you can basically chase him off stage indefinitely since theres zero risk of you dying. Actually, any no levin aerial will also kill him 100% of the time, so you can just try to time his side B and take stocks for cheap / free. And as mentioned a few times, he literally can't do crap if you platform camp him. You can charge your neutral B for free, wait for levin sword to come back for free. It just takes patience since you will 100% lose if you try to just fight him straight up
 

Venclaire

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
131
Location
Tennessee
Mac is unfortunately badly designed.

If you attempt to approach or initiate against Mac first, he'll destroy you.

If you camp platforms and force him to approach you, he'll get destroyed.

Basically, you force Mac to approach you. He wants you to approach rather than the other way around.
 

SJMistery

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
383
3DS FC
0920-3611-4128
"use to embarrass my bad friends"

Thanks my guy, lmao XD
Well he IS the unquestionably worst character in the game, so of course he got the Smash 4 Jigglypuff treatment.

Little Mac in general suffers from poor approach options, horryfingly bad disadvantage state, and non-existent recovery.

Spamming electric attacks and Arcfire from a distance is a nightmare for him, Levin Sword Up Air juggles can be extended to demoralizing levels, and Elwind is guaranteed to kill him offstage. Poor Little Mac, what has Sakurai done to you...

Mac is unfortunately badly designed.

If you attempt to approach or initiate against Mac first, he'll destroy you.

If you camp platforms and force him to approach you, he'll get destroyed.

Basically, you force Mac to approach you. He wants you to approach rather than the other way around.
Except most characters can safely approach him now that his tilts got nerfed harder than Pikachu's grab in Melee.
 
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~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
266
Location
Baltimore
Mac is only as good as the player he's beating on is ignorant in the match up.
If you have a platform, camp it. They have up smash and up special, but if it whifs, it's a free punish. Bait Side B during recovery and then punish its lag, they can't use it twice. Spot dodge forward smash, don't shield it, you'll get shield broken if you give them the chance and they know the gimmick. Lastly, never shield while KO punch is active. It's asking to get wrecked (I know first hand).
 

Zareidriel

zuh-RAY-dree-ole
Joined
May 11, 2006
Messages
1,145
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Zareidriei
Spot dodge forward smash, don't shield it, you'll get shield broken if you give them the chance and they know the gimmick.
What's the forward smash shield break gimmick? I've usually elected to shield to avoid the charged smash spot dodge read, but if there's an instant shield break gimmick I might have to change my tactics.
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
266
Location
Baltimore
What's the forward smash shield break gimmick? I've usually elected to shield to avoid the charged smash spot dodge read, but if there's an instant shield break gimmick I might have to change my tactics.
Yeah, little macs aerials are usually craptacular, but there are a couple of macs I play with who do Rising Nair, shield cross-up into Falling Nair into spaced downtilt into Forward Smash. It WILL shield break virtually every time they pull it off on shield. I learned to opt for spot dodge if they space it properly to avoid the forward smash hitting my shield. They've caught on and have turned it into a guessing game because we play regularly. Sometimes they don't go for the forward smash right away, they wait for the spot dodge and grab instead at times, which is why I sometimes now roll back, which has also now lead to them also having to guess if they have to dash grab or dash attack, etc. It's 100% cheese, but it becomes reliable cheese if spaced well. Little Mac on stage super dangerous and underrated tbh. I think personally it's better to just jump when fighting little mac than to shield in general. That's really the key to beating the character. Platform camping and a lot of full hops.
 
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Zareidriel

zuh-RAY-dree-ole
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Zareidriei
Can you not drop shield if the first hit hands on shield? And if you get hit is it a true combo? I'm trying to feel out how bad this string really is.

For example, could you shield the first three hits and then just jump away after the down tilt?
 
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~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
266
Location
Baltimore
Can you not drop shield if the first hit hands on shield? And if you get hit is it a true combo? I'm trying to feel out how bad this string really is.

For example, could you shield the first three hits and then just jump away after the down tilt?
Don't drop shield on first hit, or even the crossup hit. Only drop shield on second hit if they don't cross up, or, if you have a fast enough forward tilt to punish out of shield. I tried (tho it could be just my character) to do a Nair out of shield after second hit and ate a down tilt for it multiple times. You can opt to do a jump after the downtilt on your shield. That of course is just as viable as spot dodge, and depending on the character, obviously a better option for some. I called it a gimmick because it isn't true. it's just a dangerous guessing game that breaks shields.
 
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Zareidriel

zuh-RAY-dree-ole
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I gotcha, that gives me a pretty good idea of how it works. I'll have to experience it myself. But it is good to know about those ****ty little gimmicks that characters can ambush you with. But what I was really trying to get to the bottom of is if spot dodging is one of Robin's strongest options. I guess it depends on mac's strength at punishing the jump and other factors. It's funny, I didn't even consider you might not be a Robin player. I feel like for us, a jump could be a better option since we have a little bit better aerial speed and mobility (I presume). Spot dodge is a strong option in this game but I feel like it also leaves you more vulnerable.
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
266
Location
Baltimore
I gotcha, that gives me a pretty good idea of how it works. I'll have to experience it myself. But it is good to know about those ****ty little gimmicks that characters can ambush you with. But what I was really trying to get to the bottom of is if spot dodging is one of Robin's strongest options. I guess it depends on mac's strength at punishing the jump and other factors. It's funny, I didn't even consider you might not be a Robin player. I feel like for us, a jump could be a better option since we have a little bit better aerial speed and mobility (I presume). Spot dodge is a strong option in this game but I feel like it also leaves you more vulnerable.
To be honest, Robins out of shield game is pretty lackluster, so I don't see any particular issue with spot dodging (just don't stale your spot dodges because you don't want to increase the animation duration and lose I frames). Robbin might have the air speed but nothing to viably punish with at the same time. Mac has that advantage in the matchup. He can harass your shield. Spot Dodge to get grabs and get them off stage, and then baiting side b or counter is probably the least effort and commitment option to perform. I'm not a Robbin 'main' but I do dabble with Robin as a FE character, Robbin and Lucina particularly.
 
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Zareidriel

zuh-RAY-dree-ole
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My issue with spot dodging is the punish, that's why I'm trying to figure out a way to get out of doing one. Almost like a counter, at the end of a spot dodge there is a moment of absolute weakness. I'm not sure about the people you play against, but I start to get punished hard after spot dodging one or two smashes. The next one only needs held for a little longer...
 

Gamer Cube

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
110
Location
Bountiful, UT
What's the forward smash shield break gimmick? I've usually elected to shield to avoid the charged smash spot dodge read, but if there's an instant shield break gimmick I might have to change my tactics.
There is also another easy gimmick where mac can angle his smashes. If he angles it downward, you can say bye-bye to your shield. Also, if you shield, mac's grabs are really good. At 50%, I KO'ed my friend on the top of shadow moses with down-throw->up-b
I gotcha, that gives me a pretty good idea of how it works. I'll have to experience it myself. But it is good to know about those ****ty little gimmicks that characters can ambush you with. But what I was really trying to get to the bottom of is if spot dodging is one of Robin's strongest options. I guess it depends on mac's strength at punishing the jump and other factors. It's funny, I didn't even consider you might not be a Robin player. I feel like for us, a jump could be a better option since we have a little bit better aerial speed and mobility (I presume). Spot dodge is a strong option in this game but I feel like it also leaves you more vulnerable.
Also, a jump is not a better option, because mac can catch you with up-b the second you jump. In short, don't let mac get close enough to where you need to shield.
 
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Zareidriel

zuh-RAY-dree-ole
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Just because mac can up-b your jumps doesn't mean it's not a better option than spot dodge, theoretically. If he mis-calls your jump and his up-B misses it's a heavy punish. A lot of characters have similar high risk high reward mechanics with their up-b.
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
266
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Baltimore
There is also another easy gimmick where mac can angle his smashes. If he angles it downward, you can say bye-bye to your shield. Also, if you shield, mac's grabs are really good. At 50%, I KO'ed my friend on the top of shadow moses with down-throw->up-b

Also, a jump is not a better option, because mac can catch you with up-b the second you jump. In short, don't let mac get close enough to where you need to shield.
Little Mac angling down his Smash Attacks doesn't do any more damage to shields than not angling them. All it does is something called Shield Poking, where you hit a part of the character that the shield isn't covering because it's too small to cover it. This ultimately isn't even relevant either, because you can angle your shield as well. In addition, Unless you're Max Rage and Giant, 50% KO off of downthrow up special? I don't believe you remotely. I'd also like to note that you can easily DI to avoid the Up B or just airdodge. That's less of Mac having a good down throw and more of your friend being a casual. Jump is totally a better option for about half the cast. The only reason I don't think it is the best option for Robin in specific is because while it helps you escape because of decent air speed, you don't have fast enough frame data on attacks as Robin to get a hard punish on it without risking attacking into a shield.
 
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Gamer Cube

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
110
Location
Bountiful, UT
Little Mac angling down his Smash Attacks doesn't do any more damage to shields than not angling them. All it does is something called Shield Poking, where you hit a part of the character that the shield isn't covering because it's too small to cover it. This ultimately isn't even relevant either, because you can angle your shield as well. In addition, Unless you're Max Rage and Giant, 50% KO off of downthrow up special? I don't believe you remotely. I'd also like to note that you can easily DI to avoid the Up B or just airdodge. That's less of Mac having a good down throw and more of your friend being a casual. Jump is totally a better option for about half the cast. The only reason I don't think it is the best option for Robin in specific is because while it helps you escape because of decent air speed, you don't have fast enough frame data on attacks as Robin to get a hard punish on it without risking attacking into a shield.
Try it on top of shadow moses. The up-b on the top platform KOs at 50%. I've done it many times to my friend and he has raged so hard. Also, I'm not the best mac player, but that's what I do if someone jumps over me and I usually catch them. In short, if you don't believe me, try it yourself. My friend was playing as Cloud, if that helps. I have to admit I was wrong about the shield break, but poking the shield helps if their shielding and are at high percentages.
Edit: I forgot to add this, but to test this I had my friend literally spam airdodge and it is a true combo unless you are at very high percents and if they don't air dodge it's a guaranteed hit.
 
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~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
266
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Baltimore
Try it on top of shadow moses. The up-b on the top platform KOs at 50%. I've done it many times to my friend and he has raged so hard. Also, I'm not the best mac player, but that's what I do if someone jumps over me and I usually catch them. In short, if you don't believe me, try it yourself. My friend was playing as Cloud, if that helps.
Tried it. 2 things are required. 1, Max Rage, and 2, no DI on the last hit. In other words, your opponent would basically have to allow it to kill. It also didn't work starting at 50%, but at 60% and as I included prior to this comment, it can be escaped with a neutral or directional air dodge. I mentioned this before, that I think your friend just doesn't know what he's doing. DI can easily prevent the stock loss. In fact, if it's done close enough to the walls, assuming they aren't destroyed, you can even tech off of the wall to survive. Also, Shadow isn't a legal stage to exactly justify anyone's kill power or lack of it. I don't think the majority of Robins looking for Mac counter play are even playing on that stage.
 
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Gamer Cube

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
110
Location
Bountiful, UT
Tried it. 2 things are required. 1, Max Rage, and 2, no DI on the last hit. In other words, your opponent would basically have to allow it to kill. It also didn't work starting at 50%, but at 60% and as I included prior to this comment, it can be escaped with a neutral or directional air dodge. I mentioned this before, that I think your friend just doesn't know what he's doing. DI can easily prevent the stock loss. In fact, if it's done close enough to the walls, assuming they aren't destroyed, you can even tech off of the wall to survive. Also, Shadow isn't a legal stage to exactly justify anyone's kill power or lack of it. I don't think the majority of Robins looking for Mac counter play are even playing on that stage.
Well then I think he might've just given up when I hit him. He doesn't know about wall tech, but he air dodges a lot. Either way, it's a scary position to be in. I am also a casual player and I think Shadow is fun so I play it a lot. Anyways, how about back to the Robin Little Mac matchup. I haven't played against Robin many times at all, so my advice is based on other spacing characters with projectiles. In short, I play Little Mac a lot and am willing to give advice based on my playstyle and I usually only play with my friends so I don't have a professional combo game or anything like that. I am actually quite good considering I don't actually play often.
 

YaraNooki

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
11
Ah, wuz good Gabe.

So as many of have said, the Mac match up is ass. Getting a strong anti-rushdown counterpick (like any other non-Ike Fire Emblem character or one of the small Links) is probably a good idea. If you don’t have that luxury (heheh Elite Smash hohee), here’s what you can do.

Most WiFi Macs want to get on top of you and beat the hell out of your shield with F-Tilt and smash attacks. If you expect them to run in, Wind Jab has the range and the lingering hitbox to stuff them out. However, it loses to Jolt Haymaker and Mac’s forward roll (and we all know how much Mac players love that roll). Spacing with retreating Levin Nair/Fair can tough since Mac has the speed, burst, and armor to punish or ignore them entirely. However, doing so and immediately shielding on landing can punish Macs who mistime their punish window with Jolt Haymaker or dash attack, both of which are wonderfully unsafe on shield.

The uncharged Thunder is pretty important in this match up. It’s fast-ish, spammable, combos into dash attack at midrange, and forces Mac to tap his shield or yolo his Jolt Haymaker to punch through it. If you can read the shield timing, you can go for a dash grab or a dash up Jab if you expect him to spotdodge out of it. These are both hard commitments and get punished by pretty much everything. If Mac starts adapting and rolling out of shield or calling out your bluff by punching you directly, you have to adapt too, such as by faking a dash grab with an inital dash forward and a turnaround F-tilt (to cover roll) or by holding your shield and praying that you can punish whatever he throws your way, running away if you can’t. Fighting Mac in a grounded neutral game means that you HAVE to play 1 (sometimes 2) steps ahead of him, which isn’t a sustainable game plan. Your main goal is to survive and pop Mac offstage where you can steal his stock.

If ever hit an offstage Mac with Levin Nair or Elthunder/Arcthunder, he’s probably dead. However, Jolt Haymaker can still punch through Levin Sword and your edgeguard will likely end if you get hit. Instantly killing Mac is often worth the risk, however, and a Mac recovering low typically won’t have a lot options. Faking an attack to bait out Jolt Haymaker is a great option, as an airborne Mac without his Side-B is free GSP. If you’d rather not go off stage, two-framing his recovery options with down smash will also usually kill him. Just be sure to space the down smash properly so you’re not clipped by the Rising Uppercut or Jolt Haymaker as Mac goes for ledge.

In addition to his obvious airborne flaws, Little Mac is also extremely vulnerable in ledge trap situations. When trapped on ledge, Mac will generally do one of the following: Attack, Roll, Regular Get up, Drop Off Jolt Haymaker, or Jump Counter. Timing an Arcfire on ledge to force Mac to select an option and then moving into the max F-Smash range lets you cover all these options while putting you outside of Mac’s weirdly-long getup attack range. If you’re going to go for the stock-ending read, this is where you do it. Otherwise, reset neutral and go back to grinding it out.

Fighting Mac is a test of your reading ability and how well you can press your advantage state. It’s still neither a favorable nor fun match up, but if you gotta play it out then you gotta play it out. Good luck.
 
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