I have big issues against little mac XD

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#1
Honestly I'm kind of lost with this match up. At the moment I spend most of my time on the ground against little mac, because it feels like there isn't anything I can do if they get under me to try to up tilt. But at the same time it's sort of obvious that Robin can't compete with mac's ground game. It feels like I'm helpless in regards to out of shield options too? If anyone can give me some tips for the match up I'd appreciate it
 
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DinkDank49

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#2
I have a mac secondary that I use to embarrass my bad friends and honestly, the best thing a robin could do is platform camp, play extremely patient with baits and false approaches, and zone with your major projectiles. Once you know what the mac likes as his defensive option you can camp until you find an opening to punish and gimp him early. Be sure to catch high recoveries with mac side-b.
 
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Gamer Cube

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#3
As a Little Mac main, I would honestly say use top platform if battlefield, but don't let us get up-b on you. Camp us out with projectiles and we can do literally nothing. Otherwise, you're in a sticky situation against a Little Mac and you should use someone else for that matchup.
 
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#4
As a Little Mac main, I would honestly say use top platform if battlefield, but don't let us get up-b on you. Camp us out with projectiles and we can do literally nothing. Otherwise, you're in a sticky situation against a Little Mac and you should use someone else for that matchup.
Yeah, I've already tried switching to Ike a few times against mac. It definitely is easier for me to deal with little mac as Ike. I was just hoping it was more along the lines of me playing the match-up wrong.

I have a mac secondary that I use to embarrass my bad friends
"use to embarrass my bad friends"

Thanks my guy, lmao XD
 

Nah

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#5
yeah all you should really do in the Mac MU is take the lead and then platform camp his *** until time runs out

such an awfully designed character really
 
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#7
I'm no Little Mac or Robin expert but based on what i've learned about Little Mac in general, he relies a lot (if not solely) on his ground punish game. Meaning he'll be hunting for any kind of move endlag/landing lag.

Knowing that, you can react accordingly by:

1. Using moves with low endlag and/or aerials with low landing lag in neutral.
2. Predicting when he'll go for a punish, then shield/dodge and follow with a punish of your own (most of his punish options are unsafe on shield i think).
3. Getting him out of his comfort zone:
a) Offstage (no explanations needed).
b) In the air (if you can, juggling him is a good way to rack up %, just watch out for counters).
c) Mess up his 'dash dance zone' with projectiles.

When you know what he's up to you can plan a few seconds in advance. E.g. if i short hop and throw a spacing aerial, i know that the second i'll land he's going to rush at me so i fastfall into shield and prepare a good out-of-shield option for a punish (idk the options with Robin but grab maybe?).

Just my 2 cents, i hope it helps in some way.
 
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Gamer Cube

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#8
2. Predicting when he'll go for a punish, then shield/dodge and follow with a punish of your own (most of his punish options are unsafe on shield i think).
Actually, if Little Mac always downward tilts his f-smash, it will destroy your shield. I would recommend either rolling behind unless he is using up-tilt or down smash. Otherwise, we can just down-throw up-b for an easy KO. Not to mention if Little Mac shields, he has some of the best OoS options.

Also just in addition, I heard Gabe uses Ike. I would promote that because he is basically one of the best counter picks. I've completely given up playing with Little Mac with one of my friend's Ike. Otherwise, if you're using Robin, try to launch Mac offstage then hit him with anything if he uses side-b and he's guaranteed to die
 

Xquirtle

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#9
so get a stock lead, then platform camp for the rest of the game. . . .

probably would work, but my goal isn't to make everyone hate me XD
mac is kind of a cancerous character, so thank god that hes terrible. Honestly, abuse the crap out of him since hes so obnoxious to play against, especially online. I never feel bad doing it lol.

Anyway, i also struggle with characters that can create tons of pressure on Robin. Robin just doesn't easily whiff punish characters like mac or Pichu that can dodge away before an out of shield option. And they are just faster in every way, so it feels really hard to win without good reads. Against mac, B mixups, like just throwing it out while charging at weird timings, can work. If you wana use side B, time it way early so he runs into it or has to jump over it (he sucks in the air so you will 100% win an aerial trade with him jumping). Using arc fire even remotely foolishly will just result in him running under it and dash attacking you. Hes also going to die 100% of the time if you hit him with a levin sword neutral air off stage, and you can basically chase him off stage indefinitely since theres zero risk of you dying. Actually, any no levin aerial will also kill him 100% of the time, so you can just try to time his side B and take stocks for cheap / free. And as mentioned a few times, he literally can't do crap if you platform camp him. You can charge your neutral B for free, wait for levin sword to come back for free. It just takes patience since you will 100% lose if you try to just fight him straight up
 

Venclaire

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#10
Mac is unfortunately badly designed.

If you attempt to approach or initiate against Mac first, he'll destroy you.

If you camp platforms and force him to approach you, he'll get destroyed.

Basically, you force Mac to approach you. He wants you to approach rather than the other way around.
 

SJMistery

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#11
"use to embarrass my bad friends"

Thanks my guy, lmao XD
Well he IS the unquestionably worst character in the game, so of course he got the Smash 4 Jigglypuff treatment.

Little Mac in general suffers from poor approach options, horryfingly bad disadvantage state, and non-existent recovery.

Spamming electric attacks and Arcfire from a distance is a nightmare for him, Levin Sword Up Air juggles can be extended to demoralizing levels, and Elwind is guaranteed to kill him offstage. Poor Little Mac, what has Sakurai done to you...

Mac is unfortunately badly designed.

If you attempt to approach or initiate against Mac first, he'll destroy you.

If you camp platforms and force him to approach you, he'll get destroyed.

Basically, you force Mac to approach you. He wants you to approach rather than the other way around.
Except most characters can safely approach him now that his tilts got nerfed harder than Pikachu's grab in Melee.
 
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#12
Well he IS the unquestionably worst character in the game, so of course he got the Smash 4 Jigglypuff treatment.

Little Mac in general suffers from poor approach options, horryfingly bad disadvantage state, and non-existent recovery.

Spamming electric attacks and Arcfire from a distance is a nightmare for him, Levin Sword Up Air juggles can be extended to demoralizing levels, and Elwind is guaranteed to kill him offstage. Poor Little Mac, what has Sakurai done to you...


Except most characters can safely approach him now that his tilts got nerfed harder than Pikachu's grab in Melee.
Thankfully I don't have much trouble against little mac now lol. I prefer not to use Robin against him though just because I don't like having to rely so much on campy play—I want to have fun with my matches, not just win them. Mostly use my secondaries against Mac now, had a lot of success with that
 

~?~

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#13
Mac is only as good as the player he's beating on is ignorant in the match up.
If you have a platform, camp it. They have up smash and up special, but if it whifs, it's a free punish. Bait Side B during recovery and then punish its lag, they can't use it twice. Spot dodge forward smash, don't shield it, you'll get shield broken if you give them the chance and they know the gimmick. Lastly, never shield while KO punch is active. It's asking to get wrecked (I know first hand).
 

Zareidriel

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#14
Spot dodge forward smash, don't shield it, you'll get shield broken if you give them the chance and they know the gimmick.
What's the forward smash shield break gimmick? I've usually elected to shield to avoid the charged smash spot dodge read, but if there's an instant shield break gimmick I might have to change my tactics.
 

~?~

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#15
What's the forward smash shield break gimmick? I've usually elected to shield to avoid the charged smash spot dodge read, but if there's an instant shield break gimmick I might have to change my tactics.
Yeah, little macs aerials are usually craptacular, but there are a couple of macs I play with who do Rising Nair, shield cross-up into Falling Nair into spaced downtilt into Forward Smash. It WILL shield break virtually every time they pull it off on shield. I learned to opt for spot dodge if they space it properly to avoid the forward smash hitting my shield. They've caught on and have turned it into a guessing game because we play regularly. Sometimes they don't go for the forward smash right away, they wait for the spot dodge and grab instead at times, which is why I sometimes now roll back, which has also now lead to them also having to guess if they have to dash grab or dash attack, etc. It's 100% cheese, but it becomes reliable cheese if spaced well. Little Mac on stage super dangerous and underrated tbh. I think personally it's better to just jump when fighting little mac than to shield in general. That's really the key to beating the character. Platform camping and a lot of full hops.
 
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Zareidriel

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#16
Can you not drop shield if the first hit hands on shield? And if you get hit is it a true combo? I'm trying to feel out how bad this string really is.

For example, could you shield the first three hits and then just jump away after the down tilt?
 
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~?~

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#17
Can you not drop shield if the first hit hands on shield? And if you get hit is it a true combo? I'm trying to feel out how bad this string really is.

For example, could you shield the first three hits and then just jump away after the down tilt?
Don't drop shield on first hit, or even the crossup hit. Only drop shield on second hit if they don't cross up, or, if you have a fast enough forward tilt to punish out of shield. I tried (tho it could be just my character) to do a Nair out of shield after second hit and ate a down tilt for it multiple times. You can opt to do a jump after the downtilt on your shield. That of course is just as viable as spot dodge, and depending on the character, obviously a better option for some. I called it a gimmick because it isn't true. it's just a dangerous guessing game that breaks shields.
 
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Zareidriel

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#18
I gotcha, that gives me a pretty good idea of how it works. I'll have to experience it myself. But it is good to know about those ****ty little gimmicks that characters can ambush you with. But what I was really trying to get to the bottom of is if spot dodging is one of Robin's strongest options. I guess it depends on mac's strength at punishing the jump and other factors. It's funny, I didn't even consider you might not be a Robin player. I feel like for us, a jump could be a better option since we have a little bit better aerial speed and mobility (I presume). Spot dodge is a strong option in this game but I feel like it also leaves you more vulnerable.
 

~?~

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#19
I gotcha, that gives me a pretty good idea of how it works. I'll have to experience it myself. But it is good to know about those ****ty little gimmicks that characters can ambush you with. But what I was really trying to get to the bottom of is if spot dodging is one of Robin's strongest options. I guess it depends on mac's strength at punishing the jump and other factors. It's funny, I didn't even consider you might not be a Robin player. I feel like for us, a jump could be a better option since we have a little bit better aerial speed and mobility (I presume). Spot dodge is a strong option in this game but I feel like it also leaves you more vulnerable.
To be honest, Robins out of shield game is pretty lackluster, so I don't see any particular issue with spot dodging (just don't stale your spot dodges because you don't want to increase the animation duration and lose I frames). Robbin might have the air speed but nothing to viably punish with at the same time. Mac has that advantage in the matchup. He can harass your shield. Spot Dodge to get grabs and get them off stage, and then baiting side b or counter is probably the least effort and commitment option to perform. I'm not a Robbin 'main' but I do dabble with Robin as a FE character, Robbin and Lucina particularly.
 
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Zareidriel

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#20
My issue with spot dodging is the punish, that's why I'm trying to figure out a way to get out of doing one. Almost like a counter, at the end of a spot dodge there is a moment of absolute weakness. I'm not sure about the people you play against, but I start to get punished hard after spot dodging one or two smashes. The next one only needs held for a little longer...
 

Gamer Cube

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#21
What's the forward smash shield break gimmick? I've usually elected to shield to avoid the charged smash spot dodge read, but if there's an instant shield break gimmick I might have to change my tactics.
There is also another easy gimmick where mac can angle his smashes. If he angles it downward, you can say bye-bye to your shield. Also, if you shield, mac's grabs are really good. At 50%, I KO'ed my friend on the top of shadow moses with down-throw->up-b
I gotcha, that gives me a pretty good idea of how it works. I'll have to experience it myself. But it is good to know about those ****ty little gimmicks that characters can ambush you with. But what I was really trying to get to the bottom of is if spot dodging is one of Robin's strongest options. I guess it depends on mac's strength at punishing the jump and other factors. It's funny, I didn't even consider you might not be a Robin player. I feel like for us, a jump could be a better option since we have a little bit better aerial speed and mobility (I presume). Spot dodge is a strong option in this game but I feel like it also leaves you more vulnerable.
Also, a jump is not a better option, because mac can catch you with up-b the second you jump. In short, don't let mac get close enough to where you need to shield.
 
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Zareidriel

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#22
Just because mac can up-b your jumps doesn't mean it's not a better option than spot dodge, theoretically. If he mis-calls your jump and his up-B misses it's a heavy punish. A lot of characters have similar high risk high reward mechanics with their up-b.
 

~?~

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#23
There is also another easy gimmick where mac can angle his smashes. If he angles it downward, you can say bye-bye to your shield. Also, if you shield, mac's grabs are really good. At 50%, I KO'ed my friend on the top of shadow moses with down-throw->up-b

Also, a jump is not a better option, because mac can catch you with up-b the second you jump. In short, don't let mac get close enough to where you need to shield.
Little Mac angling down his Smash Attacks doesn't do any more damage to shields than not angling them. All it does is something called Shield Poking, where you hit a part of the character that the shield isn't covering because it's too small to cover it. This ultimately isn't even relevant either, because you can angle your shield as well. In addition, Unless you're Max Rage and Giant, 50% KO off of downthrow up special? I don't believe you remotely. I'd also like to note that you can easily DI to avoid the Up B or just airdodge. That's less of Mac having a good down throw and more of your friend being a casual. Jump is totally a better option for about half the cast. The only reason I don't think it is the best option for Robin in specific is because while it helps you escape because of decent air speed, you don't have fast enough frame data on attacks as Robin to get a hard punish on it without risking attacking into a shield.
 
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Gamer Cube

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#24
Little Mac angling down his Smash Attacks doesn't do any more damage to shields than not angling them. All it does is something called Shield Poking, where you hit a part of the character that the shield isn't covering because it's too small to cover it. This ultimately isn't even relevant either, because you can angle your shield as well. In addition, Unless you're Max Rage and Giant, 50% KO off of downthrow up special? I don't believe you remotely. I'd also like to note that you can easily DI to avoid the Up B or just airdodge. That's less of Mac having a good down throw and more of your friend being a casual. Jump is totally a better option for about half the cast. The only reason I don't think it is the best option for Robin in specific is because while it helps you escape because of decent air speed, you don't have fast enough frame data on attacks as Robin to get a hard punish on it without risking attacking into a shield.
Try it on top of shadow moses. The up-b on the top platform KOs at 50%. I've done it many times to my friend and he has raged so hard. Also, I'm not the best mac player, but that's what I do if someone jumps over me and I usually catch them. In short, if you don't believe me, try it yourself. My friend was playing as Cloud, if that helps. I have to admit I was wrong about the shield break, but poking the shield helps if their shielding and are at high percentages.
Edit: I forgot to add this, but to test this I had my friend literally spam airdodge and it is a true combo unless you are at very high percents and if they don't air dodge it's a guaranteed hit.
 
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~?~

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#25
Try it on top of shadow moses. The up-b on the top platform KOs at 50%. I've done it many times to my friend and he has raged so hard. Also, I'm not the best mac player, but that's what I do if someone jumps over me and I usually catch them. In short, if you don't believe me, try it yourself. My friend was playing as Cloud, if that helps.
Tried it. 2 things are required. 1, Max Rage, and 2, no DI on the last hit. In other words, your opponent would basically have to allow it to kill. It also didn't work starting at 50%, but at 60% and as I included prior to this comment, it can be escaped with a neutral or directional air dodge. I mentioned this before, that I think your friend just doesn't know what he's doing. DI can easily prevent the stock loss. In fact, if it's done close enough to the walls, assuming they aren't destroyed, you can even tech off of the wall to survive. Also, Shadow isn't a legal stage to exactly justify anyone's kill power or lack of it. I don't think the majority of Robins looking for Mac counter play are even playing on that stage.
 
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