I found evidence that Ike doesn't have invisible lag, and he has 3 quick attacks

[Rhyfelwyr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BOtMayVuVg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1BOtMayVuVg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlhwdvf_U14&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06LdhNF_gnA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HfXE_XRC_M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azjiLKD9-3g


I have found evidence that there isn't invisible lag for quite a few of Ike's moves, and I found a couple of undeniable cases showing a couple of fast air attacks!

In the first video at 1:06 you can see Ike do three F-Tilts in fairly quick succession.

At 1:20 in the second video you can see Ike do a F-Tilt followed by an U-tilt. You can clearly see the start up animations, and there is no room for an invisible lag.

Inside the third video at 2:00 you see Ike do an U-smash followed by a very quick turn-around and F-smash. This shows there is no invisible lag for the F-smash, although it is still slow. At 2:08 you see Ike get juggled by a ray gun, and after one of the hits he does his U-air and it comes out almost instantly! The ray gun does indeed stun after each hit, so this goes to show that his U-air is indeed a fast move.

Looking at the fourth video at 1:04, you see Peach hit Ike into the air, and Ike a split second later hits her with his N-air! No invisible lag here, it looks like a good move. At 1:34 you see Ike perform two U-smashes in a row, and there is no invisible lag in between.

Paying attention to the fifth vid at 0:50, you see Sonic hit Ike into the air, and Ike does his B-Ait INSTANTLY! Sorry, I was excited when I found that. At 1:47 Ike picks up a peach and immediately begins his F-tilt.

In the sixth video, looking at 0:16 Ike uses his U-Smash to break a platform, and straight afterwards does his Up-B, showing that that move has no invisible lag. At 0:29 Ike is hit by Links spin attack, and comes back with his F-air, thus this has no invisible lag, but it is still slow, but since his N-air is fast and with the same range, I believe his F-air is to be used as more of an approach in air-to-air combat. This video is full of moments were he does his F-B in a row, showing how it doesn’t have the invisible lag.

I have found more moments like these in other videos, but I'll update with those later.

I'm not against you Gimpyfish, but I have to ask , how long did you play as Ike? I know there were long lines, the matches were only 2 minutes, and you didn't play as Ike all the time.

EDIT: I encourage anyone reading this to go through the whole topic before posting, as a lot has been discussed.

 

[•Col•]

Wow.... I bet it took a while to find all that....

 

[Wikipedia]

Those were the slowest forward tilts I have ever seen. I don't get where you are getting from that those attacks are fast.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I said "fairly." They look like they are little bit slower then link's F-tilt to me, but with more range and power. I could be wrong, but the main point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't have invisible lag, so what you see in the videos is what the speed of the move is, and if you can compare the speed of the move to another move we've had before that was useful, then there's no reason to think that Ike's move isn't viable.

 

[Wikipedia]

...link's forward tilt wasn't that useful.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

But it did have uses. Ike will probably need to depend on his tilts more since his smashes are so slow.

Can we discuss the other stuff I said? The comment about the f-tilt was kinda minor in the scheme of my post. What do you think about the possibility of Ike have 3 fast aerials?

 

[Wikipedia]

Every move has uses. Ike is still slow, Ike still sucks and if these are Ike's best and fastest moves then he is screwed.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm not saying weather Ike sucks or not, I'm just presented the stuff I've discovered.

There has been a thing going around about how we can't judge Ike based on the videos because there was said to be some kind of hidden lag. Conversation about Ike's moves have come to a standstill because of that.

EDIT: I take back what I said about not saying my position about Ike. I want to try to defend since I'm going to main him. I'm not going to be blind about him, but I do want to argue in favor of him for the sake of argument.

I've seen from Ike's moves that he is going to be a beast in the air. His moves in the air have more range then any others, and range is very important in the air since there's no shielding, and whoever hits first wins. People were saying that he would suck in the air because of his lag, but as I've shown from the videos, he looks to have some good speed in the air.

Other advantages Ike has in the air I'll mention are Ike's counter, which gives him the advantage of being the only character in the air that is capable of intercepting attacks and counter-striking, and he can't be grabbed out of it when in the air. Then there's his Up-B then looks to have little start up, and is perfect for intercepting people above him.

 

[Jeremy092387]

I've noticed that a while back, the three quick F-airs. Perhaps some of his moves are faster than I thought, even if there is invisible lag, I really don't care. I don't go by tiers, I just pick a random character as with all of my friends. Ike is the one I am most into at the moment though.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I've noticed that a while back, the three quick F-airs.

In case you don't know what the abbreviations are, I'll tell you that...
F-Air = Forward Air attack
B-Air = Back Air attack
D-Air = Down Air attack
N-Air = Neutral(pressing A without a direction) air attack
U-Air = Up Air attack
I was saying that Ike's N-Air, B-air, and U-air are fast.

I'll enjoy using Ike with friends, but I hope (not a blind hope) that he has a chance competitively.

 

[Anthinus]

Ok I've seen the videos and i agreed with you (by now)... Looks that some moves gives him time to do something but those "rapid" attacks can damage enough or can give him a change (remember knockback, sweetspot, damage, etc). Let's hope Sakurai do a great job with him (quit some frames?)...

PD: I think its easy to post "Ike its garbage" cause everybody does and it seems at first sight... I see he isn't: OMG HES GONNA CONQUER DA WORLD!!! but i hope theres something hidden about him and if not let's pray Sakurai does something... Why don't we find a viable way to use him insted of say "He's slow and laggy, no combo and blah blah... I'll go Sonic". At least this demo Ike... Please try to get my point guys...

EDIT: Its good to have people optimist like you Rhyfelwvr around

 

[Cless]

Here's to hoping that Ike becomes usable. Regardless, I'm still going to use him anyway.

 

[JJJ.Brawler]

I hate the tiers on this site with a passion. I will use Ike a lot even if this site decides he is ' low tier' Tiers are practically pointless. So is playing Super smash Bros competitively, imo.

 

[Zek]

Please explain to me, why should we take your word about how Ike plays over the word of those who have actually played him? Anyone who played him for one full match would already have a deeper understanding of how fast his moves are than you possibly could from analyzing all this shakey-cam footage.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ok I've seen the videos and i agreed with you (by now)... Looks that some moves gives him time to do something but those "rapid" attacks can damage enough or can give him a change (remember knockback, sweetspot, damage, etc). Let's hope Sakurai do a great job with him (quit some frames?)...

PD: I think its easy to post "Ike its garbage" cause everybody does and it seems at first sight... I see he isn't: OMG HES GONNA CONQUER DA WORLD!!! but i hope theres something hidden about him and if not let's pray Sakurai does something... Why don't we find a viable way to used insted of say "He's slow and laggy, no combo and blah blah... I'll go Sonic". At least this demo Ike... Please try to get my point guys...

EDIT: Its good to have people optimist like you Rhyfelwvr around

You're on the right track about hidden nuances. There's still super armor that we haven't seen utilized yet, and an interesting thing is shield knockback. People rarely shielded in the demo, but when someone blocked Ike's F-Smash, they were pushed back a huge distance. If Ike's weaker moves have that kind of knockback, he could really put on pressure.

And thanks for the compliment.

I hate the tiers on this site with a passion. I will use Ike a lot even if this site decides he is ' low tier' Tiers are practically pointless. So is playing Super smash Bros competitively, imo.

Tiers aren't pointless. Can you say that Zelda's D-air is better then Marth's D-Air? You have to compare every move, weight, and frame of every character. The amount of things to balance and keep track of is astounding, so it goes to show that you can't make the huge differences they have with the characters, and still keep it balanced within the time they give themselves. They would need years and years to make everything work perfectly.

But the smash bros series has always maintained a balance that has allowed any character to win in tournments. Skill>Tiers

Please explain to me, why should we take your word about how Ike plays over the word of those who have actually played him? Anyone who played him for one full match would already have a deeper understanding of how fast his moves are than you possibly could from analyzing all this shakey-cam footage.

I don't have the advantage of play time, but I can form ideas based on real, indisputable footage and data. How does the amount of frames an attack has change whether you are holding the controller or not?

 

[Jeremy092387]

In case you don't know what the abbreviations are, I'll tell you that...
F-Air = Forward Air attack
B-Air = Back Air attack
D-Air = Down Air attack
N-Air = Neutral(pressing A without a direction) air attack
U-Air = Up Air attack
I was saying that Ike's N-Air, B-air, and U-air are fast.

I'll enjoy using Ike with friends, but I hope (not a blind hope) that he has a chance competitively.

Oops, I don't know why I typed F air.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

That's alright. I just didn't want people to start thinking I was saying the F-Air was fast.

 

[JJJ.Brawler]

But the smash bros series has always maintained a balance that has allowed any character to win in tournments. Skill>Tiers

Exactly. Skill>Tiers. So who needs them. I find them annoying. Sorry, but I do. They make me feel stupid when I'm using Captin Falcon cause "Omgzz! He's not GOD TIER. YOU AUTOmatically l0se!111"

 

[Hallowed Storm]

Here's to hoping that Ike becomes usable. Regardless, I'm still going to use him anyway.

Same with me, Cless.
Rhyfelwyr, just... good job. That's a lot of work and dedication for just joining this November.

Skill > Tier for me any day. While I do play as Marth, and he's on a High Tier, I'd still play as him if he was bottom tier.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Exactly. Skill>Tiers. So who needs them. I find them annoying. Sorry, but I do. They make me feel stupid when I'm using Captin Falcon cause "Omgzz! He's not GOD TIER. YOU AUTOmatically l0se!111"

Okay, I'm glad that you recognize tiers exist. In the end I agree with you, it's a game, play with who you have fun with.

Same with me, Cless.

Rhyfelwyr, just... good job. That's a lot of work and dedication for just joining this November.

Yeah, lol. This topic is hard to keep up with, it's starting to mentally drain me. I need to go to bed. Thanks for recognizing my work.

 

[gemini-saga]

@Rhyfelwyr

Good Job, you show a good overview, and I can't wait to test my self.
In the end I agree with you, it's a game, play with who you have fun with.[2]
Well I'm a Roy main user.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Fun fact: Videos have a tendency to skip frames, making it appear as if everything is moving faster.

Another Fun Fact: If you consider Button Press > Start up animations, the amount of lag isvery horrendous when taken into consideration: 1. The time the button was pressed 2. The amount of start up lag after the initial button press.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Does a few 60ths of a second skipped make that much of a difference, in regards to what I'm saying?

I'm not saying Ike doesn't have horrendous lag (expecpt for the aerials), so I don't know why your bringing that up. I'm questioning if there is an invisible lag.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Does a few 60ths of a second skipped make that much of a difference, in regards to what I'm saying?

I'm not saying Ike doesn't have horrendous lag (expecpt for the aerials), so I don't know why your bringing that up. I'm questioning if there is an invisible lag.

from experiance, the game really didn't move as fast as in the videos that were presented.

The one thing that is questionable is the invisible lag theory.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Were you at the demo? If so, I'd like to here your opinion about Ike's U-Air, B-Air, and N-air.

Like I said in my first post, Ike gets juggled by a ray gun, and after one of the hits he does his U-air very quickly. One time Peach hits Ike with her dash attack, and just as she stands straight up she gets hit by what I'm guessing is Ike's N-air. In another video Sonic spin dashes into Ike, and before Ike even comes out of the knockback animation (you don't see the transition from his knockback animation to the freefall animation), he does his B-Air which also appears very fast.

@Rhyfelwyr

Good Job, you show a good overview, and I can't wait to test my self.
In the end I agree with you, it's a game, play with who you have fun with.[2]
Well I'm a Roy main user.

Thanks! I agree with you about testing. All this speculation is driving me crazy when I can't play the game.

 

[fire_wulf]

Ok I've seen the videos and i agreed with you (by now)... Looks that some moves gives him time to do something but those "rapid" attacks can damage enough or can give him a change (remember knockback, sweetspot, damage, etc). Let's hope Sakurai do a great job with him (quit some frames?)...

PD: I think its easy to post "Ike its garbage" cause everybody does and it seems at first sight... I see he isn't: OMG HES GONNA CONQUER DA WORLD!!! but i hope theres something hidden about him and if not let's pray Sakurai does something... Why don't we find a viable way to use him insted of say "He's slow and laggy, no combo and blah blah... I'll go Sonic". At least this demo Ike... Please try to get my point guys...

EDIT: Its good to have people optimist like you Rhyfelwvr around

I would like to point out the "He's slow and laggy, no combo and blah blah... I'll go Sonic"
Thank you... My friend is going to play Sonic and says my choice in Ike is a bad choice. I would like to show him this and mock him..

Nice find on all the vids

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Fast moves or slow moves... I'm not going to go into too much debate on this although I will say that video's do have a tendency to show things faster than they are actually happening.

Everyone seems to be worried about Ike because he is "so slow." Yes, in Melee, the slow and strong approach didn't work out too well (except for Ganondorf in my humble opinion), but who says this would be the same case for Brawl?

Yes, there are pro players out there who have played the demo and released a LOT of information (of which I am very appreciative) but... They are professionals at SSBMelee, not "yet" at Brawl (they probably will become based on sheer dedication and love for the game). They themselves have already said that nobody can become a pro by playing a demo of a game for 4 days.

Brawl introduces some interesting new gameplay mechanics/physics and there is no way that we all know how to fully and completely exploit those to our advantage yet.

What does this have to do with Ike? Well, yes, he probably is horribly slow beyond belief. However, we simply do not know yet of all the ways he can be played as and tactics that are to his advantage.
My "guess" (and a very hypothetical one at that, emphasis on the "guessing" part) is that someone who maintains an above-average spacing game and relies mainly on a defensive playstyle instead of chaining together lightning fast combo's might just be able to take Ike to a very competetive level.

I think the focus on Ike shouldn't be on his speed... Speed was a really big factor in the Melee tiers, but who says it'll once again be this time around?
When I'm gonna play as Ike, the first tactics I'm probably gonna try to apply is staying as much at the center of the stage as possible, grabbing/throwing the opponent around to rack up the first percents of damage and then when enough damage is dealt this way (and I guess this wouldn't have to be a lot for Ike) drive the opponent to the edge, focussing on both blocking and delivering blows (probably more blocking than delivering) and setting up the opponent for some agressive edgeguarding.
I'd keep my focus on groundgame for most part and less on aerial combat with Ike.

Sorry for this post being a bit of a rant and slightly off-topic at some points but my point is: I think Ike is actually as slow as the one's who played him say him to be, however, I think the focus shouldn't be on his speed at all when trying to develop strategies for him.

In any case, nice find of the video's though!

 

[Cyberbot5000]

When I played melee as Ganondorf I didnt mind his slow speed due to his power but now people are saying he is slower than that which is really slow

 

[gemini-saga]

Well I Think Sakurai is making Brawl for the heavy Chars.
we don't know how super armor work, but it could put heavy chars on advantage in this game.

 

[Saph66]

We already know how super armor works. We just don't know exactly when the super armor activates for Ike's moves.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Um, people are starting to get off topic. I don't want this to turn into another "How good/bad is Ike?" thread for Gimpyfish to close.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I fail to see how stringing moves together disproves the invisible lag at the start of his moves. There may be invisible lag before the first move of the string.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm showing that the following moves have no invisible lag, not the first one. When you see a move begin and end, right after the end of a previous move, it leaves no room for invisible lag. So far the F-tilt, U-smash, Forward-B, F-Smash, and Up-B have been shown to not have this invisible lag. Maybe the other moves have invisible lag, but I don't see how you can argue against the mentioned moves any longer at the least.

There is the possibility that Ike's move just have awesome IASA frame properties, which could explain the existence of invisible lag, while still allowing these strings to be shown.

And the moves I mentioned are supposed to be some of his slowest moves. If those don't have the unseen lag, then what does?

 

[Jeremy092387]

I really don't care if there is invisible lag if even the slightest, just as long as he can string together a few moves, then I am happy.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm not sure Ike can string moves, even if the invisible lag is disproved. I can see Ike doing his U-tilt followed by a B-air or U-air at low percentages, but that's it. But combos aren't important to Ike, what matters is if we'll be able to land his powerful attacks.

 

[Hallowed Storm]

Have you heard how long the invisible lag lasts?

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I haven't actually, but It's supposed to be enough to make Ike's moves in the videos look fast in comparison.

Here's one of Gimpy's responses to me when I was first using videos as an indication of Ike's speed, and he said they were deceptive.

actually the reason ike was so ridiculously slow looking was because you would press a button to do his air attacks and he litearlly would do NOTHING, it takes him time to actually start his animation, and i thought that was really abnormal, but thats how it is *shrug*

 

[Hallowed Storm]

That quote helped describe invisible lag better than most people do.
It really seems like that should be a glitch, doesn't it? Let's hope it is.

I'll try to find out a little bit more on the time of Ike's invisible lag. Even though there won't be anything exact, it would still help to know.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah, people are thinking it's some kind of glitch, what with the demo having its fair share of problems. Random 999% combos, and buggy super armor to name a few.

 

[ForteEscape]

Dude, you're amazing.

Honestly, Skill > Tier. Also, if all you competitive players wanna just flame and rant about SLLOOOWW Ike is, and how he has such a terrible moveset, then just keep those thoughts to yourself. I myself actually think he'd be a slower character, but hey, I'd play him just because I'm a FE fanboy.

Most of the people talking about Ike's speed probably haven't even actually TRIED using him yet. They just base it off some crap quality videos (no offense to yours though, Rhyfelwyr) and other people's posts and say "Oh, Ike is such slow and useless ****, I don't even wanna use him!"

Seriously. just STOP TALKING about how "bad" Ike is. Rhy is just trying to boost the currently "low" status of Ike, and trying to raise the morale of those who are disappointed.

And most important: THE FINAL VERSION IS NOT OUT YET. THE VIDS WERE ALL DEMOS.
This fact should be taken into account the most. Once the final version comes out, THEN you can flame or praise Ike all you want.