I don't understand why Sakurai and his team refuse to fix Ganondorf's issues that have held him back across three games.

[Caryslan]

I played a Samus today in a 1 on 1 today, and it really sank in how a few quality of life changes to Ganondorf would really improve his standing in the roster. Namely, the fact that he has no options against camping characters like Samus. On a flat stage, this problem is even worse because Samus can run away, spam her missiles and punish shields with her grapple beam.

This has been an issue for three games straight, and I honestly don't understand why Ganondorf never sees any improvements that could help him.

Other veteran heavyweights like Bowser and King Dedede have gotten improvements since Brawl that help them cover their weaknesses, while newer heavyweights like King K Rool are given better options like various projectile attacks and a reflector to help them deal with camping.

So, it seems like the developers realized that heavyweights can struggle and have taken steps to make them more viable against faster characters or ones that can camp them out. Regardless of the overall result, it does seem like heavyweights have a better chance in Ultimate than in past Smash games.

But then we get to Ganondorf who has never seen his issues addressed since Brawl. In Smash 4, they basically made him more powerful but left him untouched. In Ultimate, he seems a bit more mobile than in Brawl or Smash 4 and I like the idea of him using his sword in his Smash Attacks since it gives them move range. But this is kinda negated in a roster where most of the returning roster has seen improvements across the board and the newcomers have numerous options and mechanics that have never been seen in Smash.

I guess this leads me to my point. It feels like Ganondorf has been neglected and not really improved enough to help him out. What makes this so annoying is that something as simple as replacing Warlock Punch with Dead Man's Volley where he slaps away the projectile by reflecting it would do him tons of good. It would improve his netual game and give him an option to address opponents5 who try to prey on his mobility.

I'm not even asking for a total overhaul of how he plays. Just replace Warlock Punch with Dead Man's Volley and it would help a lot.

Over the years, we have seen numerous veterans get new moves that either address flaws in their existing kits or allow them to escape the shadow of being semi-clones.

I don't understand how anyone on the design team looks at Ganondorf four games after his debut and thinks "Yeah, he's fine compared to the rest of the roster. Let's go with this."

It's just frustrating because I enjoy playing Ganondorf but I don't enjoy thinking certain matchups are hopeless just because he lacks the options or tools to keep up with a roster that keeps evolving.

What does everyone else think? Should they finally deal with Ganondorf's issues and what's the best way to go about it?

 

[Jotari]

Yeah, a reflector would definitely help him. It wouldn't even need to be a special move (even though, despite my love for it, Warlock Punch is objectively terrible and would be an improvement to be replaced). Throw a reflector property on his jab and boom, he becomes much harder to spam. It of course wouldn't be the best reflector, as he couldn't use it while moving or jumping, but it would take like, a single line of code to implement and it would make a huge difference.

 

[Shroob]

I think Ganondorf's biggest issue is simply put


He's a noob stomper, and we already know that the balance team looks at online data primarily when it comes to balance as mentioned by Sakurai in the past. Back when the game came out, people were clamoring that K.Rool was "overpowered" to the point that Sakurai himself said he had an under 50% winrate online, it wouldn't surprise me if Ganondorf probably hovers anywhere from a 48-52% win rate online and the team see that as being fine.

 

[Jotari]

I think Ganondorf's biggest issue is simply put


He's a noob stomper, and we already know that the balance team looks at online data primarily when it comes to balance as mentioned by Sakurai in the past. Back when the game came out, people were clamoring that K.Rool was "overpowered" to the point that Sakurai himself said he had an under 50% winrate online, it wouldn't surprise me if Ganondorf probably hovers anywhere from a 48-52% win rate online and the team see that as being fine.

Well that is ideally where every character should be positioned in terms of win ratios, and even some of his detractors still confess that Ganondorf is a fun character to play as, even if he's not necessarily a good fighter. But definitely giving him some reflecting capacity, or even some Tough Guy Armour, wouldn't go astray.

Also his grab range sucks. I know someone has to have bad grab range, but I wish it wasn't Ganondorf :/

 

[Guynamednelson]

Also his grab range sucks. I know someone has to have bad grab range, but I wish it wasn't Ganondorf :/

Grabs in general have been nerfed in order to get rid of the grab-centric meta of Smash 4.

...despite also wanting to get rid of excessive defensive play, and grabs countering shields.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dead Man's Volley wouldn't automatically fix Ganondorf. There's no way telling that projectile would be good, there's been quite a few cases of some bad projectiles in Smash , and I doubt it will be Wolf Blaster level tier of usefulness. Especially with a in-built reflection mechanic that allows it to be reflected back at Ganondorf.

 

[Jotari]

Dead Man's Volley wouldn't automatically fix Ganondorf. There's no way telling that projectile would be good, there's been quite a few cases of some bad projectiles in Smash , and I doubt it will be Wolf Blaster level tier of usefulness. Especially with a in-built reflection mechanic that allows it to be reflected back at Ganondorf.

I don't think the OP was even suggesting a projectile. Seems to me they were using the term Dead Man's Volley to refer to a reflector.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Yeah, a reflector would definitely help him. It wouldn't even need to be a special move (even though, despite my love for it, Warlock Punch is objectively terrible and would be an improvement to be replaced). Throw a reflector property on his jab and boom, he becomes much harder to spam. It of course wouldn't be the best reflector, as he couldn't use it while moving or jumping, but it would take like, a single line of code to implement and it would make a huge difference.

While objectively not a good move, I think the usefulness of Warlock Punch’s armor has been a bit unexplored. Seems like it can get you out in a pinch during some situations in certain matchups, like this which I learned recently.

Learnt this mix up from @ricklesTV 💪 pic.twitter.com/bqJB7uoi8K

— MGK (@MGK_Ganondorf) January 24, 2022

Well that is ideally where every character should be positioned in terms of win ratios, and even some of his detractors still confess that Ganondorf is a fun character to play as, even if he's not necessarily a good fighter. But definitely giving him some reflecting capacity, or even some Tough Guy Armour, wouldn't go astray.

Also his grab range sucks. I know someone has to have bad grab range, but I wish it wasn't Ganondorf :/

It wouldn’t be so bad if Ganondorf’s pivot grab range was better or decent in comparison like my other main (), but his is also bad. The Ganon’s law effect in place; what may be good for other characters won’t be so for him, and nevermind dash grab which is usually laggier or shorter in range than regular grab…

 

[Jotari]

While objectively not a good move, I think the usefulness of Warlock Punch’s armor has been a bit unexplored. Seems like it can get you out in a pinch during some situations in certain matchups, like this which I learned recently.

Indeed, the increase in super armour on Warlock Punch has been appreciated...but it still kind of relies on the opponent running face first into it. The only reason it worked in that video was because it was such an unexpected thing to do, the opponent just plain didn't realize he'd done it and rushed in, expecting Ganondorf to be damaged. Though if you remember the thread I made suggesting changes to Ganondorf, even more super armour was one of the situations to buff Warlock Punch. Give it full invincibility frames and make it like (a much more powerful) Ryu's Focus Attack I say.

 

[Diddy Kong]

My favorite idea always was, why not make the Warlock Punch both a projectile, and the move it is now? Hold B and it's Warlock Punch, tap it, and it's a projectile.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf hits hard and can KO quickly, so he does have to be slow to avoid being too good. On the other hand, there are some heavy hitters that have been blessed with better overall mobility.

Anyway, one thing that Ganondorf would benefit from is if his slower attacks offered some armor to compensate for their slow start-up. But even then, no amount of armor can protect him from getting grabbed.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What would help current Ganondorf is giving him the aerial Down B recovery properties of Melee. I can't seem to figure out why Melee Ganondorf was so much better than all other incarnations, but this is a clear reason I feel. Melee Ganondorf is just about the perfect middle tier in Melee, but maybe that was because the low tiers where just so horrible ?

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Yeah. When everyone else got better from game to game after Melee, Ganondorf’s flaws became much more obvious which knocked him down plenty pegs. It’s not as cut and dry as “they made him worse and worse after Melee”, which would be dismissing the buffs and good changes he also got over time. That said, he was no exception to some nerfs that were had along the way.

 

[Jotari]

Yeah. When everyone else got better from game to game after Melee, Ganondorf’s flaws became much more obvious which knocked him down plenty pegs. It’s not as cut and dry as “they made him worse and worse after Melee”, which would be dismissing the buffs and good changes he also got over time. That said, he was no exception to some nerfs that were had along the way.

I've always felt it more like he got super nerfed going into Brawl and has steadily been improved since then. He probably is his melee level now in terms of usefulness. Sure if you list all characters from best to worst he'd probably be lower than mid tier, but the gap between characters is much smaller in Ultimate than it was in Melee.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I've always felt it more like he got super nerfed going into Brawl and has steadily been improved since then. He probably is his melee level now in terms of usefulness. Sure if you list all characters from best to worst he'd probably be lower than mid tier, but the gap between characters is much smaller in Ultimate than it was in Melee.

I guess that's a fair assessment, though Brawl wasn't without its good points for him too; gave us the current f-tilt & d-tilt and the Flame Choke meta which has only gotten better since then.

But yeah. As it is now with Ultimate, Ganondorf's dash speed is nearly as fast as it was in Melee, while his walking speed is faster than ever, along with having one of the best dash attacks, putting him well on par with his Melee self between that and the other changes. Turns out OoT Ganondorf was always where it was at.

 

[Jotari]

I guess that's a fair assessment, though Brawl wasn't without its good points for him too; gave us the current f-tilt & d-tilt and the Flame Choke meta which has only gotten better since then.

I do like a lot of the changes that were made in Brawl, and it's clear why they were made, to differentiate him from Captain Falcon (which they did very successfully, when people claim Ganondorf is a Falcon clone I really wonder if they've played any of the games since Melee). They're good on a visual and conceptual level, but their frame data just sort of sucks. Flame Choke was a fantastic addition though. Gerudo Dragon, despite the cool name, wasn't missed at all. That attack was only good for getting yourself killed in Melee, at least in my experience.

 

[greatbernard]

when people claim Ganondorf is a Falcon clone I really wonder if they've played any of the games since Melee

There have been improvements for sure. But his specials (Wizard Foot, Dark Dive, Warlock Punch) are still only there because of his initial design, and he doesn't use those abilities in the Zelda games.

There's so many other specials that could've been added. In OOT, he can levitate and shoot thunderbolts out of his blade. In TWW, he can jump long distances and spin with twin blades. In TP, he rides a horse. In TP and TWW, he can use his sword to block and parry.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Honestly, the main thing I'm annoyed with Ganondorf at this point the more I play him, is his blind spots. Most characters have some degree of blind spots with some of their attacks, but Ganon has more than anyone with his moves, which are his most crucial moves for that matter.

Showcase of Ganondorf and his Blind spots / Fixes:

This is along time coming showcase! If you can give it a like and a retweet, that would be much appreciated! pic.twitter.com/0sPDPDjS9i

— MGK (@MGK_Ganondorf) November 10, 2019

This clip doesn't even have all of them, but it showcases most of them. At first the main one I experienced was the blind spot with his up smash, but since then I've become better on when knowing not to use it due to that. F-smash or doriyah I don't use enough to experience its one thankfully, but can imagine the frustration of those that have dealt with it.

Dark Dive I was afraid to use as an offensive mixup (on like a shielding opponent, whiff punish, or what have you) for the longest time due to its infamous blind spot, despite Ultimate making it stronger than ever when it hits. Eventually though I had to force myself to practice it and make it part of my gameplay (aside from recovering with it) when I realized how lacking I was without it for certain matchups.

The worst blind spot by far though I would have to say is the one from his late hit dash attack that occurs when the opponent's doing some kind of low profiling (crouching, etc). Thankfully the sweetspot dash attack doesn't have that, but when going for a dash attack in a tech chase, the mentioned blind spot can still screw you over which made me see the holes in Ganon's gameplay the better I got with his advantage state.


It's bad too when you know this could've been fixed during any of Ultimate's previous patches back when it was still getting updates. All Ganondorf got during the latter half of the updates was having his up B made less vulnerable to tech checking, but that only happened I think because Captain Falcon had that fix, and since they still share most of the same specials, Ganon getting that little fix was merely a package deal.

Obviously, Ganondorf doesn't need buffs the same way everyone else does since he's already strong as hell, but the lack of QoL fixes for characters with the updates for the most part still hurt, especially for Ganon who got nothing by the end. Not like removing the blind spot from Ganon's up smash or late hit dash attack would've made him broken or even moved him up a tier; it would've merely made him more properly functional.

It seems Ganondorf's intentionally kept to a certain level of bad (with all the blind spots and everything) because he's one of the most played characters online (even though others like Samus later got super buffed due to how much they were losing online), and is apparently the best character in the game when children who don't know how to recover play the game.

 

[Jotari]

There have been improvements for sure. But his specials (Wizard Foot, Dark Dive, Warlock Punch) are still only there because of his initial design, and he doesn't use those abilities in the Zelda games.

There's so many other specials that could've been added. In OOT, he can levitate and shoot thunderbolts out of his blade. In TWW, he can jump long distances and spin with twin blades. In TP, he rides a horse. In TP and TWW, he can use his sword to block and parry.

He doesnt shoot thunderbolts from any blades in Ocarina of Time. He just he generates it himself. Maybe you're thinking of Demise.

Honestly, the main thing I'm annoyed with Ganondorf at this point the more I play him, is his blind spots. Most characters have some degree of blind spots with some of their attacks, but Ganon has more than anyone with his moves, which are his most crucial moves for that matter.

Showcase of Ganondorf and his Blind spots / Fixes:

This is along time coming showcase! If you can give it a like and a retweet, that would be much appreciated! pic.twitter.com/0sPDPDjS9i

— MGK (@MGK_Ganondorf) November 10, 2019

This clip doesn't even have all of them, but it showcases most of them. At first the main one I experienced was the blind spot with his up smash, but since then I've become better on when knowing not to use it due to that. F-smash or doriyah I don't use enough to experience its one thankfully, but can imagine the frustration of those that have dealt with it.

Dark Dive I was afraid to use as an offensive mixup (on like a shielding opponent, whiff punish, or what have you) for the longest time due to its infamous blind spot, despite Ultimate making it stronger than ever when it hits. Eventually though I had to force myself to practice it and make it part of my gameplay (aside from recovering with it) when I realized how lacking I was without it for certain matchups.

The worst blind spot by far though I would have to say is the one from his late hit dash attack that occurs when the opponent's doing some kind of low profiling (crouching, etc). Thankfully the sweetspot dash attack doesn't have that, but when going for a dash attack in a tech chase, the mentioned blind spot can still screw you over which made me see the holes in Ganon's gameplay the better I got with his advantage state.


It's bad too when you know this could've been fixed during any of Ultimate's previous patches back when it was still getting updates. All Ganondorf got during the latter half of the updates was having his up B made less vulnerable to tech checking, but that only happened I think because Captain Falcon had that fix, and since they still share most of the same specials, Ganon getting that little fix was merely a package deal.

Obviously, Ganondorf doesn't need buffs the same way everyone else does since he's already strong as hell, but the lack of QoL fixes for characters with the updates for the most part still hurt, especially for Ganon who got nothing by the end. Not like removing the blind spot from Ganon's up smash or late hit dash attack would've made him broken or even moved him up a tier; it would've merely made him more properly functional.

It seems Ganondorf's intentionally kept to a certain level of bad (with all the blind spots and everything) because he's one of the most played characters online (even though others like Samus later got super buffed due to how much they were losing online), and is apparently the best character in the game when children who don't know how to recover play the game.

I'm fine with him having blind spots on his smashes. They're very powerful moves that hit in a decently wide area, so having some slight weakness is fine. I agree though that we always need better tracking on Dark Dive and his dash attack could do with a buff.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Hee does shoot thunderbolts from any blades in Ocarina of Time. He just he states it himself. Maybe you're thinking of Demise.

I'm fine with him having blind spots on his smashes. They're very powerful moves that hit in a decently wide area, so having some slight weakness is fine. I agree though that we always need better tracking on Dark Dive and his dash attack could do with a buff.

I guess the smash attacks' blind spots is reasonable all things considered. Before Ultimate, Dark Dive previously didn't have as much of a blind spot, but since they significantly strengthened the move itself when it hits, the blind spot may have been added to balance it out in their mind...

The main problem I have with the sour dash attack blind spot is that it limits your ability to combo into his aerials with it, but with a tech chase, dash attack would be the easiest move to overextend with regardless of the blind spot due to the move's limited range. Out of the burst options, Flame Choke and especially Wizkick you're better off going for in a tech chase. While Wizkick's normally the least used burst option due to how committal it is, in a tech chase or during advantage it shines, especially if used to catch a landing or the opponent misses their tech. And then if they shield when in that situation again, you'll condition them for a Flame Choke.

Oh, and you can still catch a landing with either version of dash attack as like an anti-air if you space it right, but yeah.

 

[mynameisBlade]

Ya the K. Rool nerf struck me deep. A character that I've wanted for years finally gets in and was getting complained about.. Nerfed the SUCK..... Nerfed the Belly Down Smash. It use to break shields like Bowsers Down B... I never have shields break as K. Rool anymore.. But hey, I'm still just glad he's in the damn game.. Ganon needs his green orb projectile from the final fight in OoT. If he just had a projectile, it'd do wonders for him..

 

[Ridley_Prime]

While the initial nerf to K Rool was unfortunate, he later became one of the most consistently buffed characters over the course of the game’s update lifespan. His situation is nowhere comparable to Ganondorf’s. Even the little nerfs Ridley got (no more Skewer crumple after down throw and such) I wouldn’t begin to compare to Ganondorf’s treatment over the course of the game. K Rool and Ridley ate well during some patches, while Ganondorf got an occasional drop in the bucket at best.

 

[mynameisBlade]

While the initial nerf to K Rool was unfortunate, he later became one of the most consistently buffed characters over the course of the game’s update lifespan. His situation is nowhere comparable to Ganondorf’s. Even the little nerfs Ridley got (no more Skewer crumple after down throw and such) I wouldn’t begin to compare to Ganondorf’s treatment over the course of the game. K Rool and Ridley ate well during some patches, while Ganondorf got an occasional drop in the bucket at best.

Damn straight... I still miss my completely broken SUCKAGE though.. Ridley is now the new character that I'm like disgusted with how bad he is, because I love him too... I think Ganondorf is better in every way tbh. Ridley's hurtbox is so huge and he isn't even that heavy.. It's a hilariously bad combination.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Damn straight... I still miss my completely broken SUCKAGE though.. Ridley is now the new character that I'm like disgusted with how bad he is, because I love him too... I think Ganondorf is better in every way tbh. Ridley's hurtbox is so huge and he isn't even that heavy.. It's a hilariously bad combination.

I play Ganondorf and Ridley pretty much the same amount at this point, and Ridley's better by a long shot. Superior range and neutral, superior advantage and combos, superior recovery (Ridley's side special doesn't put him in freefall either like Ganondorf's does), has a neutral special and up tilt that's worth a damn, great ground speed... Ganondorf and his limitations always makes me more thankful for what Ridley has.

Mewtwo and Sephiroth have the same kind of size and weight problem but worse; they're as light as Pikachu and Kirby. Mewtwo's also a floaty and has the infamous tail hurtbox. Meanwhile, Ridley's tail is disjointed, as are his wings besides the base. Ridley's tied with Wario in weight which is still fairly heavy, and with how I've learned to mitigate disadvantage and be more versatile with recoveries and DI over the course of the game, it's not uncommon for me to live up to the 200% range as him like with other heavies.

 

[mynameisBlade]

View attachment 351505

I play Ganondorf and Ridley pretty much the same amount at this point, and Ridley's better by a long shot. Superior range and neutral, superior advantage and combos, superior recovery (Ridley's side special doesn't put him in freefall either like Ganondorf's does), has a neutral special and up tilt that's worth a damn, great ground speed... Ganondorf and his limitations always makes me more thankful for what Ridley has.

Mewtwo and Sephiroth have the same kind of size and weight problem but worse; they're as light as Pikachu and Kirby. Mewtwo's also a floaty and has the infamous tail hurtbox. Meanwhile, Ridley's tail is disjointed, as are his wings besides the base. Ridley's tied with Wario in weight which is still fairly heavy, and with how I've learned to mitigate disadvantage and be more versatile with recoveries and DI over the course of the game, it's not uncommon for me to live up to the 200% range as him like with other heavies.

The people that I play against do not agree. Ganondorf for me only seems to be worse than Ridley off the stage. Ridley is combo food while on the level 99% of the time. Idk, honestly I just think Ridley is terrible, but please if you want to prove me wrong. Pick Ridley and add me on Switch. We can do a Ganon vs Ridley off. xD I would love to be wrong.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Ganondorf is fine lol. Over time he’s slowly been updated, but the core is still there.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

The people that I play against do not agree. Ganondorf for me only seems to be worse than Ridley off the stage. Ridley is combo food while on the level 99% of the time. Idk, honestly I just think Ridley is terrible, but please if you want to prove me wrong. Pick Ridley and add me on Switch. We can do a Ganon vs Ridley off. xD I would love to be wrong.

And who are those people? Ganondorf at this point is considered indisputably the worst character in the game. Ridley's know it, Ganondorf's know it, and I've been part of both their Discord servers. As far as being combo food, sure, but so is every other big body, including Ganondorf. Not like Ridley doesn't have a couple get-off-me moves like everyone else though.

Was not expecting this challenge, but very well. Would be happy to play sometime.

 

[mynameisBlade]

And who are those people? Ganondorf at this point is considered indisputably the worst character in the game. Ridley's know it, Ganondorf's know it, and I've been part of both their Discord servers. As far as being combo food, sure, but so is every other big body, including Ganondorf. Not like Ridley doesn't have a couple get-off-me moves like everyone else though.

Was not expecting this challenge, but very well. Would be happy to play sometime.

I agree Ganondorf is right down there with Little Mac. Can't dispute that, but in between him and Ridley, I guess I just find Ganondorf stronger with my play style. My Ridley is a punching bag to my opponents. xD He is a toughy..

 

[Jotari]

View attachment 351505

I play Ganondorf and Ridley pretty much the same amount at this point, and Ridley's better by a long shot. Superior range and neutral, superior advantage and combos, superior recovery (Ridley's side special doesn't put him in freefall either like Ganondorf's does), has a neutral special and up tilt that's worth a damn, great ground speed... Ganondorf and his limitations always makes me more thankful for what Ridley has.

Mewtwo and Sephiroth have the same kind of size and weight problem but worse; they're as light as Pikachu and Kirby. Mewtwo's also a floaty and has the infamous tail hurtbox. Meanwhile, Ridley's tail is disjointed, as are his wings besides the base. Ridley's tied with Wario in weight which is still fairly heavy, and with how I've learned to mitigate disadvantage and be more versatile with recoveries and DI over the course of the game, it's not uncommon for me to live up to the 200% range as him like with other heavies.

Yeah, I concur with all this. Ridley is pretty great. The only real issue I think he has is his recovery, which isn't actually bad, just really unintuitive for smash bros. with its fixed angles. Once you're used to it it's pretty good, but new players will probably find it pretty frustrating (I know I did when the game first came out and a lot of other people were complaining about it online).

As far as Ridley goes as a punching bag, I say the same thing as I do to people who say that about Ganondorf. Just don't get hit! XD

 

[mynameisBlade]

Yeah, I concur with all this. Ridley is pretty great. The only real issue I think he has is his recovery, which isn't actually bad, just really unintuitive for smash bros. with its fixed angles. Once you're used to it it's pretty good, but new players will probably find it pretty frustrating (I know I did when the game first came out and a lot of other people were complaining about it online).

As far as Ridley goes as a punching bag, I say the same thing as I do to people who say that about Ganondorf. Just don't get hit! XD

I can agree with that. Ganon just feels more dangerous imo. My friends play characters like Pika, Link, and Pirahna Plant, so most of their attacks seem to hit me much more often being this much wider framed and still decently tall purple dragon rather than the much more slender Ganon. xD It really is a toss up for me at times, because I hate both of their UP B specials. Ridleys for not being able to go in more directions and Ganons for being so easy to gimp once he is off level. Ridley def has the advantage there as he can jump multiple times.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Ganondorf is ok. Really I think the only issue that prevents him from being competitive with the rest of the cast is his recovery, which makes his threat level a lot less scary in practice since gimping him is an effortless win condition that most of the cast can achieve with little issue. I think the ease of gimping Ganondorf is really on a different level than the rest of the cast since he has the distinction of having an exploitable recovery that barely goes any distance and also very easy to intercept for most characters. Like, Falco's Recovery is also exploitable to an extent, but it at least goes pretty far and there is some mix up potentional with how Falco can return to the stage. Ganondorf doesn't have much mix up potential i think.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Ganondorf is ok. Really I think the only issue that prevents him from being competitive with the rest of the cast is his recovery, which makes his threat level a lot less scary in practice since gimping him is an effortless win condition that most of the cast can achieve with little issue. I think the ease of gimping Ganondorf is really on a different level than the rest of the cast since he has the distinction of having an exploitable recovery that barely goes any distance and also very easy to intercept for most characters. Like, Falco's Recovery is also exploitable to an extent, but it at least goes pretty far and there is some mix up potentional with how Falco can return to the stage. Ganondorf doesn't have much mix up potential i think.

This was recently made showing how creative you can be with Ganondorf’s recovery, despite it being one of the worst in the game.

With a successful grab from up B, can make it back from the edge of the bottom blast zone when you use it again. Ganon’s vertical recovery is no joke.

The vid also taught me more about reverse or turnaround up B where you grind up the wall under stage, which can punish an opponent who misses their edgeguard or ledge drops. Even if you get hit, can easily tech. Only downside is you can't snap to ledge when using up B this way, so only do so if you know you'll interact with the opponent.

The uppercut where you press or hold down during up B is especially good for mixing up Ganon’s recovery. I knew about its existence before the video, but had underestimated its use. Aside from it covering thinner stages, can prevent ledge trump attempts, beat out disjointed moves depending on the distance, be unpunished against most counter edgeguards, and knocks away any ledge placed items. On stage, can be used to knock someone above you, or use it to punish someone above who uses their jump in an attempt to escape a juggle which can be anticipated with a read or reaction. Kills at high % but not so much from ledge/ground level, and may be possible to go for after an up throw, giving said throw another potential use. If they're somewhere not far off stage, an uppercut to ledge can possibly lead to an aerial followup.

*For hitting someone above stage with uppercut, press down on left stick after the up B right when Ganondorf swings to get the feel for it, and of course when they're still above him. If you get any closer or higher you'll get the Dark Dive instead, which isn't bad if it connects (especially when it kills at high %), but to get the positioning for uppercut, have to be precise. That said, unless it's near the top blast zone which can cheese out a kill, grabbing with DD would still be better. Regardless of which version of up B you end up doing, can either timely double jump before the up B, or wait a moment and do a single jump (short or fullhop/IDJ) and then up B. There's also always doing an empty jump first + fastfall and then go for the jump/up B, which helps with timing a uair on someone far above as well. Overall, depends on how long you feel they'll be in the air after being knocked vertically at high %. Floaties you especially have to know your timing with.

** On platform stages, can also up throw to the top plat and up B them on reaction. Also unrelated but helpful, when knocked far off at high %, airdodge up + forward before using your jump and up B.


Despite side B's poor horizontal distance for recovering, it has a deceptively large ledge grab. Even if opponent mashes out of a Ganoncide, can still up B them after. Ganoncide also gimps a poor vertical recovery (i.e. DK) even if they mash out and punishes an up B with no hitbox.

While it’s recommended that Ganon uses an aerial like nair or uair to defend himself from attacks off stage prior to recovering, can still use up B against attempted edgeguards to grab them and save the double jump to use it to get to ledge after followed by another up B. Would typically want to use that for matchups where the off stage edgeguard attacks outrange Ganon's nair or uair (i.e. a sword). Likewise, if you're in a tricky situation, you can up B first without using your 2nd jump knowing you'll get hit, and then use your 2nd jump to help recover after.

 

[Jotari]

I'm sure I've said it already in thisbthread, but flame Choke notninducing a helpless would be super useful for his recovery. Restoring his mid air jump after successfully landing a Dark Dive would also be sweet.

 

[mynameisBlade]

I'm sure I've said it already in thisbthread, but flame Choke notninducing a helpless would be super useful for his recovery. Restoring his mid air jump after successfully landing a Dark Dive would also be sweet.

I do hate how some characters can Side B then Up B, but others can't. I've never understood that part of the balance. Fox and Falco are faster and can do it. Ganondorf is slower and can't... WHAT??!!! The balance team never understood strength means nothing if you can't even hit the opponent or stop them from hitting you...

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Aside from Flame Choke not putting Ganondorf in freefall (if he was a newer character and not a veteran whose had that side B since Brawl, I don’t think he would have this limitation), I think it would also be a good idea for him to be able to release someone out of a Ganoncide for off stage purposes, like Ridley’s able to do with his side B. Particularly, he would do this when he’s at a higher % than the opponent, so he doesn’t just get gimped and screwed when they mash out and instead, he can potentially gimp them with an aerial side B release like Ridley does.

Would be especially good since Ganoncide now results in Ganon dying first if they can’t mash out. “Ridleycide” was never seen as a good option as a result since he dies first unless he’s a stock ahead, so waiting till they’re close as possible to the bottom blast zone before releasing them out side B is always the mean Ridley thing to do.

An aerial side B release for Ganon would also allow him to do an aerial followup like Ridley does… Amazing how the few similarities of Ganondorf and Ridley complement each other in a way. I guess being a Ganon main before Ultimate really paid off when it came to picking up Rid.

 

[Jotari]

I do hate how some characters can Side B then Up B, but others can't. I've never understood that part of the balance. Fox and Falco are faster and can do it. Ganondorf is slower and can't... WHAT??!!! The balance team never understood strength means nothing if you can't even hit the opponent or stop them from hitting you...

At least it isn't the auto suicide button that his melee special Gerudo Dragon was.

 

[mynameisBlade]

At least it isn't the auto suicide button that his melee special Gerudo Dragon was.

Yup. Gotta be glad for what we got at the least of course. xD

 

[F4lcoMain]

At least it isn't the auto suicide button that his melee special Gerudo Dragon was.

Wait a minute, are you the same Jotari from Serenesforest?

Uh but to get back on topic, I actually kinda liked Gerudo Dragon compared to the current side special, though it was certainly a pretty bad recovery move.

 

[Jotari]

Wait a minute, are you the same Jotari from Serenesforest?

You mean that super cool guy? Yep, that me.

Uh but to get back on topic, I actually kinda liked Gerudo Dragon compared to the current side special, though it was certainly a pretty bad recovery move.

Why though? It doesn't really provide any options to him that can be accomplished with a wizards foot or an aerial. And it's not just a bad recovery, it has a non negligble chance of seriously ****ing you over even when used on stage. Only use I've ever had for it is in class if modes team battles where you fight twenty enemies at once as the uppercut's hit box is pretty large and the upwards knockback is useful against

 

[Deleted member]

Imagine if kept these custom moves from Smash 4 and use them as their default special moves in Ultimate.