I dont think vilager is as good as people say

[Darklink401]

Pika is annoying but it's easy to lloid and fair spam, usually stay right at the ledge to be closer to Pikachu's height, nair is really good because it trades/beats quick attack.
Sheik? Idk..I think we'll know for sure when Ranai comes to the states, it's probably underdeveloped.
Villager rosa is super hard (trust me my training partner mains her), Rosa can just put up a wall of defense and gravitational pull everything, I find coming down on her with dair into dtilt is really good and edgeguarding can be easy. I'd say 60-40 at worst.

The only annoying thing about Pika, I find, is his height, and the fact he can edgeguard us to oblivion xD (his bair wallspikes are the devil)

Also, I face Rosalinas every tournament I go to (sadly) and I must say, once you DO get that Rosa practice in, you just gotta know what to do, and it's not that bad

Plus, Villager's nair clanks with most of Luma's moves (including fsmash and upsmash) so we got that goin for us XDD

 

[JohnnyB]

The only annoying thing about Pika, I find, is his height, and the fact he can edgeguard us to oblivion xD (his bair wallspikes are the devil)

Also, I face Rosalinas every tournament I go to (sadly) and I must say, once you DO get that Rosa practice in, you just gotta know what to do, and it's not that bad

Plus, Villager's nair clanks with most of Luma's moves (including fsmash and upsmash) so we got that goin for us XDD

That's very interesting. Nair shouldn't clank with anything that isn't a solid projectile since it's an aerial. Lumas attacks must have some unique properties that don't follow the normal rules of priority.

 

[Darklink401]

That's very interesting. Nair shouldn't clank with anything that isn't a solid projectile since it's an aerial. Lumas attacks must have some unique properties that don't follow the normal rules of priority.

Clanks with Dyn's fire too XDD

 

[LobotomyPop :^)]

If we're talking MUs, we need to address Villager's worst...

 

[Darklink401]

If we're talking MUs, we need to address Villager's worst...

MK, Toon Link/Link, Megaman, Game n Watch...xD

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

MK, Toon Link/Link, Megaman, Game n Watch...xD

Why G&W and Tink?

 

[tyranitaro]

In relation to the last question about Tink being a bad matchup for Villager, I'm not that great a player, but I find swords really hard to deal with as Villager

In particular: all give me a hard time. Cloud's range and speed is ridiculous, plus he can outcamp anyone. Marth and Lucina also have good range and speed and don't find it too difficult to get in. MK is super fast and small as well, which makes fair/bair spam impossible. Link and Tink's standing animations negate most of our projectiles. Tink, especially, is fast, has good projectiles, is small, and has decent killing power. Basically it's super difficult to get in against him, which is why I'd consider him potentially our worst matchup. It's definitely not impossible, but it isn't easy either.

 

[Darklink401]

Why G&W and Tink?

GW can't be gimped, is tiny + has an amazing crouch, so fair/bair spam doesn't work well, and he has disjointed moves. Zee believed it to be like 70:30 at some point lol.

In relation to the last question about Tink being a bad matchup for Villager, I'm not that great a player, but I find swords really hard to deal with as Villager

In particular: all give me a hard time. Cloud's range and speed is ridiculous, plus he can outcamp anyone. Marth and Lucina also have good range and speed and don't find it too difficult to get in. MK is super fast and small as well, which makes fair/bair spam impossible. Link and Tink's standing animations negate most of our projectiles. Tink, especially, is fast, has good projectiles, is small, and has decent killing power. Basically it's super difficult to get in against him, which is why I'd consider him potentially our worst matchup. It's definitely not impossible, but it isn't easy either.

Sword characters suck for villager. Incidentally, sword characters often struggle with projectiles and gimping, so we still do well vs most of them, such as Marcina/Ike etc. But they're still annoying. Wouldn't be the case if slingshot was transcendent tho xD

Also I disagree when people say Cloud can outcamp anyone. Villager can easily camp him out xD

 

[JohnnyB]

GW can't be gimped, is tiny + has an amazing crouch, so fair/bair spam doesn't work well, and he has disjointed moves. Zee believed it to be like 70:30 at some point lol.

Sword characters suck for villager. Incidentally, sword characters often struggle with projectiles and gimping, so we still do well vs most of them, such as Marcina/Ike etc. But they're still annoying. Wouldn't be the case if slingshot was transcendent tho xD

Also I disagree when people say Cloud can outcamp anyone. Villager can easily camp him out xD

I feel like sword characters are a huge reason why FD is such a bad stage for Villager. At least when you have platforms there is some way to escape all of that spacing pressure without putting yourself in a bad situation. I have so much less of a problem with Cloud on BF/DL as i do on FD/DH.

 

[tyranitaro]

I feel like sword characters are a huge reason why FD is such a bad stage for Villager. At least when you have platforms there is some way to escape all of that spacing pressure without putting yourself in a bad situation. I have so much less of a problem with Cloud on BF/DL as i do on FD/DH.

Exactly. I constantly lose to these characters on FG thanks to FD (Also because I suck ). Stages like BF and DL make these matchups so much easier.

 

[trevskeet]

Y'all know the watering can negates all of Tink's projectiles, right?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I would like to know what major weaknesses OP is reffering to. I honestly can't think of much outside of his atrocious grab. I read someone say that he loses to sheild but I respectfully disagree. The axe does massive shield damage, he has several moves that are safe when shielded and he has a great kill throw. I think villager's placement is about right (top 10-15ish) personally.

 

[Darklink401]

It depends on playstyle as well. A lot of Marths like pressuring you on

I would like to know what major weaknesses OP is reffering to. I honestly can't think of much outside of his atrocious grab. I read someone say that he loses to sheild but I respectfully disagree. The axe does massive shield damage, he has several moves that are safe when shielded and he has a great kill throw. I think villager's placement is about right (top 10-15ish) personally.

Axe does a lot of shield damage but its sooo laggy, and there's no guaranteed shieldbreak setups except for tree growth to axe xD

Also his throws are great but his grab is still bad lol.

And what move of his is safe on shield, aside from spaced 3-turnip dair and spaced fair/bair/lloid? xD

Well, and fsmash, but that has a lot of startup

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

It depends on playstyle as well. A lot of Marths like pressuring you on

Axe does a lot of shield damage but its sooo laggy, and there's no guaranteed shieldbreak setups except for tree growth to axe xD

Also his throws are great but his grab is still bad lol.

And what move of his is safe on shield, aside from spaced 3-turnip dair and spaced fair/bair/lloid? xD

Well, and fsmash, but that has a lot of startup

Jab is somewhat safe on shield.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

It depends on playstyle as well. A lot of Marths like pressuring you on

Axe does a lot of shield damage but its sooo laggy, and there's no guaranteed shieldbreak setups except for tree growth to axe xD

Also his throws are great but his grab is still bad lol.

And what move of his is safe on shield, aside from spaced 3-turnip dair and spaced fair/bair/lloid? xD

Well, and fsmash, but that has a lot of startup

A lot of great moves are really laggy. That's how you know how good the player is, how they use the move. Pressuring enemies into certain situations. then using axe can be really good depending on how the player uses their pressure.

Pretty sure rising nair is save. Add that to fair, bair, sometimes dair, lloid, whatever item may be pocked, potentially jab, and fsmash...that's pretty good. I dunno enough about ftilt/dtilt/utilt to make an assessment on them. Even without, the tilts a pretty good amount of moves though.

 

[Darklink401]

Jab is somewhat safe on shield.

If you do it multiple times, yeah. But if they roll and you commit to a jab, you can be punished.

A lot of great moves are really laggy. That's how you know how good the player is, how they use the move. Pressuring enemies into certain situations. then using axe can be really good depending on how the player uses their pressure.

Pretty sure rising nair is save. Add that to fair, bair, sometimes dair, lloid, whatever item may be pocked, potentially jab, and fsmash...that's pretty good. I dunno enough about ftilt/dtilt/utilt to make an assessment on them. Even without, the tilts a pretty good amount of moves though.

And Axe is a great move. but it only does 20 shield damage. Which granted, is a lot, but still less than half.

The issue with villager is that nair/dair/upair are all great lasting hitboxes, but aerially, he doesn't have any quick moves aside from fair/bair, and you can't pressure shields with it up close.

 

[Keftii]

I must say with the addition of the newest DLC characters,Villager most certainly went down in the ladder,Cloud and Corrin are a disadventageous matchup and Bayonetta is just a losing one. And the fact that theres basically no other Villager thats doing well in big tournaments other than Ranai also makes me think its more his skill than the character.

 

[Zarklord]

I must say with the addition of the newest DLC characters,Villager most certainly went down in the ladder,Cloud and Corrin are a disadventageous matchup and Bayonetta is just a losing one. And the fact that theres basically no other Villager thats doing well in big tournaments other than Ranai also makes me think its more his skill than the character.

Are you kidding me!!! although cloud is a tough MU for us, we get him offstage once where he has to use his up-special(not his super up-special though) an if were smart(have a sapling planted) hes dead, corrin yes its interesting but I believe we have the better MU... and bayonetta well no one has a good MU verse her but ours is not bad due to witch time not working on correctly placed fairs and bairs....

 

[goodgrief]

Are you kidding me!!! although cloud is a tough MU for us, we get him offstage once where he has to use his up-special(not his super up-special though) an if were smart(have a sapling planted) hes dead, corrin yes its interesting but I believe we have the better MU... and bayonetta well no one has a good MU verse her but ours is not bad due to witch time not working on correctly placed fairs and bairs....

bayo can just crouch the fair/bair impossible to hit her

 

[Darklink401]

bayo can just crouch the fair/bair impossible to hit her

She doesn't have a crawl tho, which is good. I still feel the villy vs bayo matchup is 50-50 xD I wonder if lloid can break her combos...

 

[Silvera]

She doesn't have a crawl tho, which is good. I still feel the villy vs bayo matchup is 50-50 xD I wonder if lloid can break her combos...

Perhaps if the timing is right. I might as well test it out myself.

 

[Darklink401]

Perhaps if the timing is right. I might as well test it out myself.

Lloid comes out frame 1, so maybe just mashing it when she's doing her combos might work

 

[-ShieLd-]

I must say with the addition of the newest DLC characters,Villager most certainly went down in the ladder,Cloud and Corrin are a disadventageous matchup and Bayonetta is just a losing one. And the fact that theres basically no other Villager thats doing well in big tournaments other than Ranai also makes me think its more his skill than the character.

It's not only Ranai, villager is a pretty balanced character with good projectiles and a perfect moveset for stage control, and can counter half of the roster with this.
Actually he's not too popular in high competitive scene so I'd think matchup against recent DLC characters are rather blurry.
Personnaly, the matchup is 60-40, Witch time can harshly punish aerials and projectiles -Oh, villy use projectile for his Fair/Bair- and she had a very good recovery and a good air game.
And I've a question: Did an empty Fsmash at edge can be counter by witch time ? Because it's a good tool to punish her if she had only upB to come back or at end of an ABK.

 

[Darklink401]

It's not only Ranai, villager is a pretty balanced character with good projectiles and a perfect moveset for stage control, and can counter half of the roster with this.
Actually he's not too popular in high competitive scene so I'd think matchup against recent DLC characters are rather blurry.
Personnaly, the matchup is 60-40, Witch time can harshly punish aerials and projectiles -Oh, villy use projectile for his Fair/Bair- and she had a very good recovery and a good air game.
And I've a question: Did an empty Fsmash at edge can be counter by witch time ? Because it's a good tool to punish her if she had only upB to come back or at end of an ABK.

Fair and bair can be used even at sweetspot range, and not slow you down with witch time. You gotta be suuper close lol.

I don't recommend charging fsmash at the ledge vs bayo. Pretty sure it clanks with her up B. Just go out there and take her stock. Her recovery is good, but not invincible in any way, and both her recovery moves are linear.

 

[Keftii]

I do get that Bayo is causing a lot of debate and i do think theres a lot of silly **** going on,but im talking matchup specific,where i find that villager struggles against her,more so than other characters (and i have a handful of very solid alts). I find that villager has a hard time punishing her,making her a very low risk high reward character. Her aerials cover quite some space quickly and outbeat villagers, making villagers offstage presence, one of his main strengths, quite mitigated to say the least.. its true though,that witch time is not that much of a problem as with most other characters.

Regarding cloud being free just because of his recovery,cmon,dont fool yourself. That character clearly wins out on stage. Ive been looking for some insight on how to beat the DLCs as villager by looking up for some recent Ranai plays, but its looking like he too hasnt been placing too well ever since,guess why

 

[Darklink401]

I do get that Bayo is causing a lot of debate and i do think theres a lot of silly **** going on,but im talking matchup specific,where i find that villager struggles against her,more so than other characters (and i have a handful of very solid alts). I find that villager has a hard time punishing her,making her a very low risk high reward character. Her aerials cover quite some space quickly and outbeat villagers, making villagers offstage presence, one of his main strengths, quite mitigated to say the least.. its true though,that witch time is not that much of a problem as with most other characters.

Regarding cloud being free just because of his recovery,cmon,dont fool yourself. That character clearly wins out on stage. Ive been looking for some insight on how to beat the DLCs as villager by looking up for some recent Ranai plays, but its looking like he too hasnt been placing too well ever since,guess why

Cuz he's allergic to DLC.

Bayonettas all agree, in the discord, that Villager does well vs Bayo, even if it's just an even matchup. Having good aerials doesn't equate to a good offstage game. Also her nair only hits on the sides, you can easily beat that out with dair or upair, or even nair xD

Villager is still a beast offstage. Bayo struggles to edgeguard villager. There's no hitbox so she can't witch time his recovery, you can dip lower than she can with your balloons, so her nair/dair edgeguards aren't as effective. Meanwhile, Villager is one of the only characters that can edgeguard HER efficiently xD


In terms of Cloud, I don't see how he wins neutral THAT much xD His fair is slow as hell, and his nair starts from behind him. When he jumps, we just have to sh nair or upair, and it will usually beat out whatever option he selects. +, dthrow double fair at mid %s will usually get him offstage xD I don't think it's a great MU for villager, but it certainly isn't terrible haha

 

[Silvera]

Lloid comes out frame 1, so maybe just mashing it when she's doing her combos might work

Yeah, I would say so.

 

[Darklink401]

Yeah, I would say so.

Someone in the bayo boards I asked, said that he was unsure about everything else, but that up B 2 to upair, which is a true combo at mid-high %s, can indeed be broken by frame 1 stuff
I'll test the other stuff today.

 

[De Wolfe]

I agree about Cloud and Bayonetta being tough for Villager thus making him worse in the meta. Those two are characters that just by virtue of someone picking them you have to outplay them to win, even if the player playing them isn't on your level. Their risk to reward ratios are too low and in clouds case hes so damn easy to use and his goals are clear at all times.

 

[tyranitaro]

I think Villager is kept within the top 10-15 range because in spite of their weaknesses (and there are definitely a lot of 'em):

1. They have a couple of strangely advantageous matchups that a lot of characters don't. For instance, I think, at the very least they go even with Bayonetta and Sheik and slightly beat ZSS.
2. Even if they do lose a matchup, they technically have the tools (no pun intended) to deal with any character. i.e. They're bad against reflectors, but they can pocket right back. They don't like disjoints but they can fair/bair spam and play keep away for days.
​

I agree with the OP in that a lot of people do seem to overestimate how potent Villager is and don't account for his weaknesses. But their kit can compensate for all of their weaknesses, which is why they're considered as strong as they are.

 

[goodgrief]

She doesn't have a crawl tho, which is good. I still feel the villy vs bayo matchup is 50-50 xD I wonder if lloid can break her combos...

the mu is literally impossible on flat stages she just crouches and bullets. maybe doable on platform ones but def not 50 50 definitely her favor

 

[Darklink401]

the mu is literally impossible on flat stages she just crouches and bullets. maybe doable on platform ones but def not 50 50 definitely her favor

So I guess beating my country's best Bayo (top 10 player) on FD doesn't count. Cuz it's 'literally impossible'.

If you're getting beat by crouching and bullets, you're doing something wrong. I almost positive the MU is 50-50, and it seems in the Bayo discord they agree, Villy is a pretty even MU.