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"I don't care how strong you are. It's not strong enough!" Roy Match Up Thread

D

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ive heard from many roy players that the first hit of sideB is a good way to anti-air falcon since you can continue the sideB combo on hit confirm and then follow up with tech chases.
roy side b is a good anti air in general for a few reasons- you still have access to asdi, the opponent does not, the disjoint can challenge most aerial moves, it starts high to low, and then the stun is side b stun + falling time + landing lag where you can fish for something thats usually MU dependent. typically DD based characters are naturally strong against aerial approaches through that mechanic alone, but roy's 1.6 run speed limits his ability to use typically DD answers, hence why you need something innovative to match characters like CF when dashdance alone won't work. this is also why marth can side b as an anti air but you'll almost never actually see it. sticking to something like dtilt is just asking to get kneed
 

BoyBloodRoy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
16
Went to my first local today! Came across a few characters that I have little knowledge of. Lucas is the one that sticks out to me, currently, however. any tips for Roy vs Lucas?
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
roy side b is a good anti air in general for a few reasons- you still have access to asdi, the opponent does not, the disjoint can challenge most aerial moves, it starts high to low, and then the stun is side b stun + falling time + landing lag where you can fish for something thats usually MU dependent. typically DD based characters are naturally strong against aerial approaches through that mechanic alone, but roy's 1.6 run speed limits his ability to use typically DD answers, hence why you need something innovative to match characters like CF when dashdance alone won't work. this is also why marth can side b as an anti air but you'll almost never actually see it. sticking to something like dtilt is just asking to get kneed
with the sideB wouldnt i have to worry about the possibility of CF getting in a quick nair/uair if i try to fish for something rather then continuing the sideB?
I completely agree with you about sticking to dtilt solely being a danger but i think that one could maybe assume that a player would have enough time to react to CF SH approaching and throw out the sideB even if they were crouched before that. crouching for the dtilt is simply a way to keep the CF player from being comfortable with run up grab or some other grounded option and therefore incentivizing an aerial approach which would limit CF's mixups as soon as he jumped allowing roy to cover aerial options with sideB.

im curious what your opinion is on other things roy can do as a DD character heavy since his DD speed is limited?

This has been as issue for me as a roy player for a while and i havent found a whole lot of good answers for it yet. Ive worked on brawl style foxtrot dashing so that i can dash back twice and then dash in letting the running animation start so that i can crouch faster for a quick dtilt and im trying to work out when its more important to use roy pretty solid WD instead of a DD so as to keep tilt options but i feel there are a lot of wholes in all of my strategies thus far.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
typically roy has the advantage in the DD mirror because dtilt trumps ASDI which is integral to the DD process. CF also has a trump of sorts called being really ****ing obnoxious and having all his best conversions be CC and by extension ASDI proof. the **** answer is that you just sort of have to finesse it with experience and feel it out.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
typically roy has the advantage in the DD mirror because dtilt trumps ASDI which is integral to the DD process. CF also has a trump of sorts called being really ****ing obnoxious and having all his best conversions be CC and by extension ASDI proof. the **** answer is that you just sort of have to finesse it with experience and feel it out.
As someone who only is familiar with asdi in that i know what it is, im not sure how to apply it other then effecting ones ability to combo DI out of combos or possibly tech off the ground quickly. What makes it so useful in the DD game specifically, unless its just useful in being able to get back DDing quickly without taking a lot of percent? (sorry for the scrubby questions)
 
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Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
sorry for adding in another post right after my previous but its been a while (and this thread has been a bit dead). i was hoping someone would be down to help me with some theorycrafting. theres a very good ivy player in my area and while i realize that roy should win the mu im not nearly experienced enough in general. so my issue usually lies in dealing with ivy's neutral. the ivy player here will use razor leaf to force my approach or push up slightly if i dash away from the razor leaf. once i approach he uses one of three or four options to deal with me. if i shield the razor leaf then he dash grabs me and gets a dthrow combo and resets neutral. if a jump over it and try to get in close with a fair then he uses jab or bair depending on the spacing/timing (i know fair should beat out ivy's vertical range with jab but it seems like if i space it right then he uses the fourth options). the fouth option, dtilt, he uses if i try to space a fair/nair or if i try to jump over razor leaf and then pull back a little so that im just past the razor leaf. if he gets a jab he'll also do a dtilt right after so he can combo into aerials or grab at low percents.
ive tried clanking out the razor leaf as well with roys ftilt, fair, dtilt and sideB but he seems to be able to counter those with one of the four options so im unsure what to do to find a way to get my combos started and harassing him. i know if i get ivy into the air above me or if i can just catch ivy then i can do a lot of damage as well as grabbing ledge and forcing ivy to do the tether get up but im not getting past neutral as much as i need to. What ideas/strategies do you all do? maybe im not timing or spacing things correctly or maybe my reactions after dealing with razor leaf are suboptimal. idk. any thoughts will help.
 
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Randomman14

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
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26
Location
Cincinnati Ohio
sorry for adding in another post right after my previous but its been a while (and this thread has been a bit dead). i was hoping someone would be down to help me with some theorycrafting. theres a very good ivy player in my area and while i realize that roy should win the mu im not nearly experienced enough in general. so my issue usually lies in dealing with ivy's neutral. the ivy player here will use razor leaf to force my approach or push up slightly if i dash away from the razor leaf. once i approach he uses one of three or four options to deal with me. if i shield the razor leaf then he dash grabs me and gets a dthrow combo and resets neutral. if a jump over it and try to get in close with a fair then he uses jab or bair depending on the spacing/timing (i know fair should beat out ivy's vertical range with jab but it seems like if i space it right then he uses the fourth options). the fouth option, dtilt, he uses if i try to space a fair/nair or if i try to jump over razor leaf and then pull back a little so that im just past the razor leaf. if he gets a jab he'll also do a dtilt right after so he can combo into aerials or grab at low percents.
ive tried clanking out the razor leaf as well with roys ftilt, fair, dtilt and sideB but he seems to be able to counter those with one of the four options so im unsure what to do to find a way to get my combos started and harassing him. i know if i get ivy into the air above me or if i can just catch ivy then i can do a lot of damage as well as grabbing ledge and forcing ivy to do the tether get up but im not getting past neutral as much as i need to. What ideas/strategies do you all do? maybe im not timing or spacing things correctly or maybe my reactions after dealing with razor leaf are suboptimal. idk. any thoughts will help.
One thing. Crouch cancle. Learn how to do it well. It the help you loads in this match up because it basically makes ivys d tilt and jab useless.
Use fair or side B to swat out razor leaf, uh he approach to grab then spot dodge or hop away, if he goes for D tilt or jab then just crouch cancle -> d tilt of your own.
 

Smolder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
124
sorry for adding in another post right after my previous but its been a while (and this thread has been a bit dead). i was hoping someone would be down to help me with some theorycrafting. theres a very good ivy player in my area and while i realize that roy should win the mu im not nearly experienced enough in general. so my issue usually lies in dealing with ivy's neutral. the ivy player here will use razor leaf to force my approach or push up slightly if i dash away from the razor leaf. once i approach he uses one of three or four options to deal with me. if i shield the razor leaf then he dash grabs me and gets a dthrow combo and resets neutral. if a jump over it and try to get in close with a fair then he uses jab or bair depending on the spacing/timing (i know fair should beat out ivy's vertical range with jab but it seems like if i space it right then he uses the fourth options). the fouth option, dtilt, he uses if i try to space a fair/nair or if i try to jump over razor leaf and then pull back a little so that im just past the razor leaf. if he gets a jab he'll also do a dtilt right after so he can combo into aerials or grab at low percents.
ive tried clanking out the razor leaf as well with roys ftilt, fair, dtilt and sideB but he seems to be able to counter those with one of the four options so im unsure what to do to find a way to get my combos started and harassing him. i know if i get ivy into the air above me or if i can just catch ivy then i can do a lot of damage as well as grabbing ledge and forcing ivy to do the tether get up but im not getting past neutral as much as i need to. What ideas/strategies do you all do? maybe im not timing or spacing things correctly or maybe my reactions after dealing with razor leaf are suboptimal. idk. any thoughts will help.
This seems to be more of an issue of you not having the reaction speed to deal with the Ivy. After you clank with the Razor Leaf, (Jab, Side-B, etc.) it becomes one big mixup. The mixup is divided among three options that branch into smaller options that you will need to take depending on the outcome.

The first mixup after the clank is that he will go for an attack. If this is the case, shield it. If he messes up his spacing, grab him or do an aerial OoS. If he attempts to hit you with a frametrap, buffer a roll or look for the most convenient time to wavedash OoS to either escape or punish lag on his attacks. If he attempts to reset to neutral, chase him with a wavedash OoS dtilt to threaten space. However, be wary of over-committing on the last option, because he can retreat with a bair, catching your wavedash OoS if you attempt to chase too far.

The second mixup is that he will go for a grab on the clank. If you were fighting a lower-level Ivy, I'd say just buffer a spot dodge and punish. However, if he is as good as you say he is, he will probably wiff the grab on your spotdodge and quickly follow up with a jab. I guess you can try ASDI'ing down after the spot dodge to punish his jab, but that's just theorycrafting at this point. The optimal decision in this situation is to either roll inwards to assume stage control, or roll outwards to reset to neutral. These are merely mixups, though. And roll mixups are pretty easy to adjust to, so be careful not to be too predictable with your answers to any of his approaches.

The third mixup is that he will see that you clanked with it and attempt to retreat. He can choose several options while resetting to neutral, so just like when you wavedash OoS to chase, be careful about chasing him in his attempted retreat. If he retreats far enough back, however, he will try to throw out another Leaf to see if he can yield better results. If you know that he's trying to do this, then chase him down and make him uncomfortable with throwing out another one.

In the end though, the best way to fight Ivy's Razor Leaf is to not let the move be used in the first place. All characters with projectiles have a certain threat zone where they can no longer viably throw out their attack without incurring a punish from their opponent. This holds true with Ivy. So just stay close to her while being mindful of your spacing. If you give Ivy any breathing room, I can bet you nine times out of ten, she will throw out a Razor Leaf. Think of it like the Snake MU. If you don't want to give Snake any time to set up his shenanigans, why would you want to give Ivy a chance to set up an approach where she will be at an advantage?
 
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Taytertot

Smash Ace
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Feb 7, 2014
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658
Location
Seattle, WA
thank you both for the advice i'll work that into my game more. ive definitely thought about a lot of that but i still need to integrate it into my game better. reading all that puts it into a more mentally tangible process and i think i'll be able to use all of that more effectively now. i'll be playing him again on friday unless i cant make it for some reason. then i'll see if ive introduced these strategies into my game.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
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658
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im sorry again for adding a post when my post was the last one on this thread but i strongly feel that roy vs snake is in roys favor and id like to see if all my fellow roy mains feel the same so that we can maybe change then community MU chart where is says the MU is even.
 

xLithiumx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Chicago
Eh, tbh I kinda feel like snake wins this. I mean, just him being able to zone Roy and make it hard for him to approach makes me feel like that. I personally have no experience with this match-up, but still, Roy would have to get closer for sweetspots and grenades, mines, C4, to me it all just sounds like a solid wall. This is still Roy though and once Roy gets a good hit on some of the cast it equals big damage/stock, so I could see it also working for Roy. That's just my inference though.

Edit: Plus Roy is a fast faller and Snake does damage to fast fallers.
 
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Taytertot

Smash Ace
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Eh, tbh I kinda feel like snake wins this. I mean, just him being able to zone Roy and make it hard for him to approach makes me feel like that. I personally have no experience with this match-up, but still, Roy would have to get closer for sweetspots and grenades, mines, C4, to me it all just sounds like a solid wall. This is still Roy though and once Roy gets a good hit on some of the cast it equals big damage/stock, so I could see it also working for Roy. That's just my inference though.

Edit: Plus Roy is a fast faller and Snake does damage to fast fallers.
i agree with snake having the camps, but personally i dont find grenades difficult to deal with and you can keep snake from setting up mines as long as you stick close enough to him that you have the potential to punish him if he attempts it. C4 i feel isnt that bad since snake cant be in the middle of an action if he wants to detonate making it easier to predict and/or avoid giving the detonate too freely to him. in terms of normals roy only needs a tipper poke to put snake in a bad enough position that roy should be able to capitalize on something or at least push the pressure so snake can use any nades/mine/C4. with grenades the most important thing to be aware of is the timing because you can position yourself so that snake cant punish you shielding the grenade and you can also position so that snake would have to worry about blowing himself up as soon as he pulls it which gives you solid options when youre close to snake and far from snake.
I know that there isnt much love for brawl and strategies from brawl are often overlooked as being not useful in the context of PM but dealing with snake's projectile game was very similar in brawl and there were some marth players out there that made the mu look very hard for snake, specifically mikeneko. i realize that roys physics are different but i feel that roy can still avoid projectiles in a similar manner.

im not saying that its heavily in roys favor but i think roy has a slight edge in the mu.
 

Smolder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
124
Any of my fellow Roys feel like giving me a solid write-up on the Sonic MU? All I know so far is that side-B can stuff approaches and I have to wait for Sonic to commit in order to get anything started. I've only gotten to fight a few Sonic's in my career and I can't seem to get a good handle on this MU.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
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so the way i generally like to play this mu is use low committal moves to aggressively force sonic to the ledge. i try not to give up much space even with DD because sonic thrives off of stage space and if you threaten sonic to the ledge he no longer has good mixup options and that shuts down his entire gameplan because sonic has crap priority on his moves and relies on fast ground game to mixup up when he goes in so that he can bait things out and just punish rather then worrying about a trade. If hes at the ledge or near it then he loses the space to use that mixup game because his aerial movement really isnt that impressive and you can stuff all his options without the fear of whiffing if he doesnt have retreating as a neutral game mixup.
 

Kneato

Totoro Joe
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
395
Matchup from:roypm:'s Perspective (+3 has Roy winning)

+3:
+2::bowser2::squirtle::pit::gw::ivysaur:
+1::mewtwopm::wario::lucario::metaknight::zerosuitsamus::sonic::zelda::lucas::popo::sheik:
0::snake::fox::ike::ganondorf::pikachu2::kirby2::samus2::wolf::marth::rob::ness2::falcon::luigi2::olimar::mario2::falco:
-1::dedede::dk2::toonlink:
:link2::yoshi2::jigglypuff:
-2::charizard:
-3:

?::peach:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Peach matchup?
 

Bag'O'Nuts

PM4LIFE
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
67
Matchup from:roypm:'s Perspective (+3 has Roy winning)

+3:
+2::bowser2::squirtle::pit::gw::ivysaur:
+1::mewtwopm::wario::lucario::metaknight::zerosuitsamus::sonic::zelda::lucas::popo::sheik:
0::snake::fox::ike::ganondorf::pikachu2::kirby2::samus2::wolf::marth::rob::ness2::falcon::luigi2::olimar::mario2::falco:
-1::dedede::dk2::toonlink:
:link2::yoshi2::jigglypuff:
-2::charizard:
-3:

?::peach:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Peach matchup?
Overall I think it looks pretty fair to me. I'd put :ivysaur: and :warioc: at 0, :charizard: at -1, and :dk2: and :rob: at -2. I've heard :peach: isn't all that bad but I don't have any actual experience in that matchup so I really don't know for sure.
 
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KoyalKitKat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
26
As a person who is at even level with a Roy main, Peach (my main) is pretty even with Roy, maybe even losing to Roy. But my other main, Donkey Kong is super good against Roy as edge guards are super easy. There is not a single time where he was able to make it back against Donkey's bair
 

Bag'O'Nuts

PM4LIFE
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Jan 2, 2015
Messages
67
As a person who is at even level with a Roy main, Peach (my main) is pretty even with Roy, maybe even losing to Roy. But my other main, Donkey Kong is super good against Roy as edge guards are super easy. There is not a single time where he was able to make it back against Donkey's bair
I definitely feel DK is the bane of Roy's existence.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
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Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Matchup from:roypm:'s Perspective (+3 has Roy winning)

+3:
+2::bowser2::squirtle::pit::gw::ivysaur:
+1::mewtwopm::wario::lucario::metaknight::zerosuitsamus::sonic::zelda::lucas::popo::sheik:
0::snake::fox::ike::ganondorf::pikachu2::kirby2::samus2::wolf::marth::rob::ness2::falcon::luigi2::olimar::mario2::falco:
-1::dedede::dk2::toonlink:
:link2::yoshi2::jigglypuff:
-2::charizard:
-3:

?::peach:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Peach matchup?
i agree with Bag'O'Nuts about DK and zard. id put rob at -1 though i dont have a lot of experience in the mu and ive heard its kinda rough for roy.
personally id put sheik at 0 because i find her frustrating to deal with but that could very well be wrong and i just need to learn the mu better.
id put snake at +1 cause i think as long as roy keeps in mind the timing of snakes grenades when snake cooks them then roy can find safe ways in, and once roy gets in on snake its pretty easy to never let snake get away til he drops a stock.
i also think roy beats kirby and luigi if roys super patient and walls them out with fairs and nairs but its annoying since roy cant combo them much.
im confident that roy beats ness pretty bad. ness's PK fire isnt hard to deal with due to roy having very solid movement and pretty easily out-disjointing ness and comboing the crap out of him.
i also think roy beats wolf slightly (+1) but im open to being wrong on that.
id assume that olimar vs roy is in roys favor as well but idk for sure.
lunchables has said that tink vs roy is even and since he seems to currently be the best tink and roy player (since sethlon hasnt played much PM for a while) so i feel that lunchables knows what hes talking about.
Id say falco has a slight advantage on roy due to that piece of crap laser of his but its hard to say til the meta evolves more.

i agree with everything else.
 
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KoyalKitKat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
26
I like how peach has no opinion on her. I don't even know how to play this matchup against Roy
 

Sundark

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
99
Just some immediate thoughts on like one or two times I've played a Peach as Roy, and also drawing from some Melee Marth-Peach experience:

Basically like Marth vs Peach in Melee, in that you have to abuse disjoint, deal with projectiles, and confirm kills easily to be able to get anywhere.

It might actually work against her that Roy is heavier, since her lack of overt movement options isn't a problem when she can keep up with a Marth getting hit in the air, but Roy will hit the ground faster and be able to get out of the situation with proper DI.

CC Dsmash is a way bigger threat in this MU than with Marth in Melee as CC Dtilt/anything is a big part of Roy's gameplan, and can be easily exploited, meaning DD grabs will become more useful. Basically any time Roy wants to crouch cancel, it has to be with a potential Dsmash response in mind, or you're going to eat the damage.

Flare Blade is a pretty good edgeguard tool, as it has more power than Shield Breaker and covers a nice, large arc in the air. Basically, aim to catch Peach with about the tip of it and even if she wants to fall from the Parasol, you should get her on the swing down.

Nair's meatiness will be a good way to approach an aerial Peach, as even spaced pretty far away it will confirm and push her out with some decent damage. Your risk trading on every other aerial.

Single hit DED can work if she tries to come in with FC aerials (which you should be mindful of attempting to shield grab as it won't work), but at low percents the full combo is vulnerable to CC/Grab/etc.

Good kill moves are Fsmash, edgeguard Flare Blades and Nairs, Dsmash, Uthrow as always if the stock gets away from you.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Anyone have advice on the wolf MU? i had always thought it was pretty easy for us but i played a really good wolf in tourney yesterday and he never gave me the chance to start DDing to look for a grab and he used lasers to keep me from spacing him out with ftilt, jab or aerials. to ask more specifically, how do i challenge lasers if hes just going to jump in right after with nair shine pressure? Cause i know how to combo the crap out of wolf but i didnt get solid hits in from neutral.
 

Nido

ily Sebby
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Messages
961
Location
Australia
Matchup from:roypm:'s Perspective (+3 has Roy winning)

0::ness2: ---> +2::ness2:
Ness is an easy +2 for you guys, you have all the tools to prevent Ness from getting a grab and as long as you don't get intimidated by weird DJC movement and space DTilt/FTilt/Nair well Ness will struggle to ever get in. Ness has issues with jumping out of combos because his is really slow and if it gets caught by a hit Ness has an even harder time getting to the ground because of Roy's disjoint on SHFFL UAir > Flare Blade/BAir or even just an UTilt can cause problems.

Roy's CC is stupid hard to overcome just don't get hit by a Dair/PK Fire or you're in serious trouble. Ness has a lot of trouble coming back from the ledge but this isn't a Roy specific problem.

Ness has unbelievable amounts of trouble to even get back to the ledge because if Ness tries to ride the wall with his DJ down angled FTilt or DTilt > Fair swats Ness away and we can't PKT2 from below too close or counter messes us up real bad and if we come in from far away below it's easy to react to the angle and so a Flare Blade/FSmash is waiting plus the threat of an invincible Dair spike if you want to show off the move. Coming in from above is equally as frustrating because of Flare Blade charging if you react to the way PKT1 looks like it'll move into Ness or an Uair > Bair combo if we fly straight across the stage but the simple punish is another FSmash to repeat the recovery process.

The general gameplan is to trap Ness on the ledge and bully him there, never let Ness have a stage with a long stretch of flat ground so striking any of FD/SV/PS2/Distant Planet is a good start and NEVER let Ness take you to Dreamland however I assume you all hate it enough to ban it right away.

If you can't already tell I ****ing hate this match up and in general plus the guy I play with every weekend or so plays Roy and if Ness didn't have a ridiculous punish off a single grab this would be near unwinnable, if a known Ness player calls a double blind be sure they're hard countering you on the character select screen.

Feel free to let me know if you think I'm overreacting to how bad some of this stuff is.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Ness is an easy +2 for you guys, you have all the tools to prevent Ness from getting a grab and as long as you don't get intimidated by weird DJC movement and space DTilt/FTilt/Nair well Ness will struggle to ever get in. Ness has issues with jumping out of combos because his is really slow and if it gets caught by a hit Ness has an even harder time getting to the ground because of Roy's disjoint on SHFFL UAir > Flare Blade/BAir or even just an UTilt can cause problems.

Roy's CC is stupid hard to overcome just don't get hit by a Dair/PK Fire or you're in serious trouble. Ness has a lot of trouble coming back from the ledge but this isn't a Roy specific problem.

Ness has unbelievable amounts of trouble to even get back to the ledge because if Ness tries to ride the wall with his DJ down angled FTilt or DTilt > Fair swats Ness away and we can't PKT2 from below too close or counter messes us up real bad and if we come in from far away below it's easy to react to the angle and so a Flare Blade/FSmash is waiting plus the threat of an invincible Dair spike if you want to show off the move. Coming in from above is equally as frustrating because of Flare Blade charging if you react to the way PKT1 looks like it'll move into Ness or an Uair > Bair combo if we fly straight across the stage but the simple punish is another FSmash to repeat the recovery process.

The general gameplan is to trap Ness on the ledge and bully him there, never let Ness have a stage with a long stretch of flat ground so striking any of FD/SV/PS2/Distant Planet is a good start and NEVER let Ness take you to Dreamland however I assume you all hate it enough to ban it right away.

If you can't already tell I ****ing hate this match up and in general plus the guy I play with every weekend or so plays Roy and if Ness didn't have a ridiculous punish off a single grab this would be near unwinnable, if a known Ness player calls a double blind be sure they're hard countering you on the character select screen.

Feel free to let me know if you think I'm overreacting to how bad some of this stuff is.
i agree with everything you said and i have no idea why anyone would think ness is even close to even in this mu. i dont even think roy needs to DD to make this match crap for ness. walling out with fair, nair, dtilt and some ftilts will destroy every neutral option ness has. if ness tries going for aerial pk fire then its obvious because of the angle required and so roy can just back up a bit to avoid being in a bad situation. if ness goes for grounded pk fire then its only safe from max range and roy can easily react and shield that and then wavedash back jab will avoid any attempt on ness's part to try to get a grab. roy as combos the crap out of ness.
 

Smolder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
124
Personally, I'd put MK at -1 and ROB at -3.

MK's mobility and gimp potential are the two big reasons I'd put him at -1. I used to think this MU was slightly in Roy's favor until I got a good amount of friendlies in with Emukiller. He proved to me that MK's mobility allows him to actually dash around Roy's dtilts and play a very non-committal game against Roy. He can easily shark around the stage looking for the best possible opening. Now, I understand that Roy can fight this by either putting pressure on the MK via stage presence without committing to any options, but MK can easily out DD Roy and play the same exact game, but better.
And I don't think MK's gimp game really needs to be explained as to why it's Bad News Bears for Roy. Invincible ledge drop nair, anyone? Oh, and a little thing to note, when fighting a MK. Regardless of DI on uthrow, he will get a followup. If you DI out, he gets side-B, if you DI in, he gets uair. So, ya know, don't get grabbed. Roy does have redeemable qualities vs MK, though. His combo game is one of the best on MK, because his combo-weight is very similar (if not the same) to Roy's. Also, Roy can CC MK's side-B, so never let him bully his way back on stage with that stupid move. Oh, and luckily enough, MK's neutral gameplan is ridiculously similar to Roy's, so if you're confident that you can beat other Roys in neutral, then you can usually do the same with MK.

Now, I will admit, there may be some bias as to why I believe ROB is -3 on Roy. This is solely because I get to play against DrinkingFood a lot of the time on netplay. It could be me just being affected by top-player syndrome, but the MU feels almost unwinnable. In almost every interaction, ROB has the upper-hand. CC war? ROB wins. Neutral? ROB has the advantage, due to laser pressure, air sharking, and ASDI. Punish game? Roy can punish ROB decently, but more often then not, you are going to have to outright kill him to seal the stock. Whereas if he touches you, he can convert it into an off-stage gimp which can range from heavy commitment on his part, to literally none with his laser. And trust me, when you fight a good ROB, he will almost always confirm the gimp regardless of recovery mixups.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points, I can always stand to learn more on MU's that I believe are bad.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Personally, I'd put MK at -1 and ROB at -3.

MK's mobility and gimp potential are the two big reasons I'd put him at -1. I used to think this MU was slightly in Roy's favor until I got a good amount of friendlies in with Emukiller. He proved to me that MK's mobility allows him to actually dash around Roy's dtilts and play a very non-committal game against Roy. He can easily shark around the stage looking for the best possible opening. Now, I understand that Roy can fight this by either putting pressure on the MK via stage presence without committing to any options, but MK can easily out DD Roy and play the same exact game, but better.
And I don't think MK's gimp game really needs to be explained as to why it's Bad News Bears for Roy. Invincible ledge drop nair, anyone? Oh, and a little thing to note, when fighting a MK. Regardless of DI on uthrow, he will get a followup. If you DI out, he gets side-B, if you DI in, he gets uair. So, ya know, don't get grabbed. Roy does have redeemable qualities vs MK, though. His combo game is one of the best on MK, because his combo-weight is very similar (if not the same) to Roy's. Also, Roy can CC MK's side-B, so never let him bully his way back on stage with that stupid move. Oh, and luckily enough, MK's neutral gameplan is ridiculously similar to Roy's, so if you're confident that you can beat other Roys in neutral, then you can usually do the same with MK.

Now, I will admit, there may be some bias as to why I believe ROB is -3 on Roy. This is solely because I get to play against DrinkingFood a lot of the time on netplay. It could be me just being affected by top-player syndrome, but the MU feels almost unwinnable. In almost every interaction, ROB has the upper-hand. CC war? ROB wins. Neutral? ROB has the advantage, due to laser pressure, air sharking, and ASDI. Punish game? Roy can punish ROB decently, but more often then not, you are going to have to outright kill him to seal the stock. Whereas if he touches you, he can convert it into an off-stage gimp which can range from heavy commitment on his part, to literally none with his laser. And trust me, when you fight a good ROB, he will almost always confirm the gimp regardless of recovery mixups.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points, I can always stand to learn more on MU's that I believe are bad.
I agree that rob vs roy is bad for roy but i doubt its -3. while rob does win CC wars, if rob has to ASDI then roys dtilt always beats that (it'll put rob or any character for that matter in knockdown so either they tech and you try to get a tech chase or they dont and you get free combos). obviously run cancelled fsmash and grab will help a lot vs rob's CC and asdi as well. id also say that rob in general has a better neutral but he isnt always at an advantage in neutral because while rob has projectiles and aerial pressure, roy has overall better mobility (i think its important to remember that while rob is aerial DDing with sideB he only gets 3 aerial dashes so he has to reserve those resources especially since using them is a double edge sword in neutral because if you hit him offstage then hes got one less recovery option to work with which could flat out kill him if he DI's an fsmash wrong and cant make it back with 2 or less aerial dashes). Taking rob to stages where is gyro will have less presence and/or stages where his lasers cant cover as many angles in neutral (i.e. platforms that mess up the angles he has available for laser.)
overall i think rob is probably somewhere between -1 to -2 for roy.
 
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Smolder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
124
Sorry. Completely forgot to reply to this. haha
So Mewtwo is a very gimmicky character that depends heavily on the other player not knowing his gimmicks.
How Roys beat Mewtwo is by learning two of his gimmicks.
A.) His teleport.
B.) His combo-breaker(s).
First off, you have his teleport. This may not seem like as much of a powerful tool when compared to 3.02, but let's take a closer look...
His teleport can be used to obtain a perfect sweet spot when absolutely parallel to the ledge. His teleport autocancels when landing from the air. His teleport gives him a decent approach (which can make a decent crossup if he knows his spacing). His teleport also allows him to steal the ledge from Roy during the hang-time of his up-B. And a smart Mewtwo will take advantage of all these different qualities to combat a Roy.

I will start with the first quality. This is a simple fix. Just grab the ledge and force him onto the stage and if you can catch him before his autocancel landing, you can obtain a free punish. Your go-to punish would probably be a ledgedash --> grab --> dthrow --> flareblade. As a Mewtwo, it is really difficult to avoid this punish unless he gets a perfect autocancel teleport to roll away.

The teleport's second quality is a little bit harder to deal with due to the mechanics of an autocancel. If done correctly, it should be (nearly) impossible to punish him. However, most Mewtwo's aim for the autocancel from the ledge. Now that you know this piece of knowledge, you can stand a few feet from the ledge in what I like to call the "sweet spot" when fighting the Mewtwo. Why do I call this the sweet spot? Well it's simple. This is the spot where you can punish literally anything the Mewtwo does. If he decides to autocancel, watch for his ledge release, then do a pivot grab to catch him out of his teleport or, if he doesn't do it perfectly, you can even get an fsmash. If he decides to roll, you can either go for a regrab into dthrow flareblade or just fsmash him. If he decides to neutral getup, just ftilt him . If he goes for the jump, just jump up and flareblade him. And due to your spacing, you shouldn't have to worry about a getup attack. This position is where you'll make most of your profit. You want him to be in this position so that you can get maximum option coverage.

The third quality is something you have to feel out for yourself. All Mewtwos prefer to tele-approach at different times. Just play out the neutral until you get a good read on when he wants to tele-approach, then you have your choices from there. If he goes for maximum-range tele-approaches, just wait for his cue that gives his approach away (most players have a cue) and wavedash back fsmash. If he goes for the crossup tele, just shield it --> wavedash OoS --> grab --> profit.

The fourth and final quality is oddly under-utilized in the Roy MU. I have no idea why, but I have only met one Mewtwo who has done that against me. This is the hardest of the teleport qualities to deal with. No matter what, if the Mewtwo knows this, you WILL have to land on stage and the Mewtwo WILL (most likely) confirm a punish. Most Mewtwos will do a neutral getup --> grab --> bthrow to reset the situation. In this situation, you want to do an up-B that will land you as close to the ledge as possible. This will force the Mewtwo to do a pivot grab out of neutral getup. If you're lucky, this will mess him up, and if you're even luckier, you will edge cancel the up-B and get sweet, sweet vengeance with an early up-B for 15-20% on the Mewtwo.

Second off, you need to learn how to deal with his combo-breaker(s).
The reason why I have a parenthesized 's' is because his fair isn't a true combo-breaker unless you're really messing up your timing. This is such an insanely simple fix. Know. Your. Timings. If you know that he's about to come out of hitstun and you're near him, 10-to-1 he's going to either do a nair or fair. Now that you know this, you can opt to drop the combo early to bait out the combo-breaker for an even longer combo or you can obtain a hard punish with an fsmash. If he's too high to fsmash, scare him with an empty jump --> fast fall to bait the breaker --> uair or do whatever aerial you want depending on the situation. Once he does his combo-breaker, he will be susceptible to a large variety of punishes, which are all ugly because Roy has a great combo game as well as both an aerial and grounded kill move. Small edit: You can tell a Mewtwo wants the combo-breaker when he DI's in. If he's DI'ing in, you can shield the breaker and confirm a grab or you can just fsmash him for DI'ing in which will kill him at earlier percents because, well, he's DI'ing in.

Now I guess I should take some time to answer your questions after all that rambling.
When it comes to Mewtwo's weight, he is actually amazing for early-percent combos. Your fthrow, if DI'd incorrectly, can lead to either a regrab, fair, or nair. Your dtilt leads to some decent uairs and if you pressure him hard enough in the air, you can force a teleport. If he tries to DI your uair down for a combo-breaker, just L-cancel it and do an utilt. both fairs and uairs are pretty good tools for comboing Mewtwo. Essentially, he's just a whole difference combo-weight to learn for you. Anyone can be an awkward combo-weight if you don't get enough MU experience against them. I used to believe Luigi was hard to combo until I learned to bait out his nair. Now it's pretty easy for me to combo him.

Also, what moves of his do you think can contest Roy's spacing? His bair is the only move I've had any difficulty with and that is truly easy to beat once you learn the timing of it. If you learn to wait-out the bair, you can actually do a shorthop --> instant fair for the punish which could lead into a small combo string. If you clarify further on this subject then I may be able to help you.

Nair should never be a problem for Roy unless the Roy is misspacing his approaches. litterally almost everything you do out-spaces Mewtwo's nair. But if the Mewtwo is really keen on doing defensive nairs, just do a short hop, into a fast-falled empty land just outside of his threat-zone and fsmash him. The short hop should trick him into thinking you're going for a reckless approach and the quick land fsmash should catch him on his punish attempt. If he knows this trick, then go for a tomahawk. If he knows about the tomahawk, he will either go for a spot dodge or roll. wait out the spot dodge and fsmash or if he rolls just learn which way he prefers to roll and chase it next time. Otherwise, just be smart with your spacing and you shouldn't get nair'd.

If a Mewtwo is spamming shadowballs, practice your powershielding. No. I'm not joking. I have a Mewtwo friend who rarely SB's me anymore. He doesn't like the fact that I have an 80% success rate on his SB's. SB is so easy to powershield once you get used to it. If you can't seem to pull this off though, treat his SB's like Sheik needles. Just shield one, wavedash forward, shield the next one, wavedash again, and keep doing this until you're near his threat zone. He should be scared to throw a SB at this point because he doesn't want to get punished. Most better players will try their hardest to be constantly within this threat zone to avoid SB spam.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask. I used to play a Mewtwo constantly and he hates that MU now. haha
Sorry if there are any grammar or spelling issues. It's a little late here and I don't feel like dealing with the corrections.
EDIT: I guess you can't really consider B. a gimmick, but meh. I like to consider combo-breakers gimmicky because I'm a scumbag that relies on combos. =P
Here's an older post I made. There is some outdated information, like his autocancel from ledge, and two other ledge options to keep in mind are ledgedash and side-B. Ledgedash is less likely though, because (IIRC) he doesn't retain his i-frames on the ledgedash.
 

Ariyo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
123
I just came in to say that the thread title is anime as hell and low-key makes me want to main Roy
 
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