I don't agree with the "worst than Sm4sh-Samus" idea (video)

[Dan_Sic]

I'm super addicted to Ultimate gameplay videos, it's what I do to keep my hype and anxiety in check, also, Samus is one of my mains in Sm4sh and one of my favorite characters ever; hence why I watch any videos that contain Samus footage or opinions. Lately I've seen a trend of counting Samus (at least in the demo version) as a worst version of her Sm4sh counterpart and I sincerely don't agree.

The main reason for this statement is that she doesn't have her dash attack combos anymore because of the attack's knockback angle, but I think most people are not factoring that she might play differently from Sm4ash altogether, so the comparison may not be relevant. Look at this video; you can clearly see that her Nair has an incredibly low landing lag, as well as her Upair and Fair having landing lag reductions as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBM_iR27dHg&t=79s

Combine the overall speed boost she's got, with her almost lag-less Nair aerial gets you (she does an up-tilt and a jab combo almost immediately), with bombs exploding on contact, a decent projectile with missiles, and charge shot being much more viable all around, and I think Samus could honestly do much better than in Sm4sh.

Some of this buffs will benefit her overall approach options and neutral, IMO.

What do you think?

 

[Deleted member]

I know this is off topic, but God, the Zelda player was awful...

Anyways....

Samus in general, has never been bad character. As you said, she has projectiles and semi decent frame data. Plus this game, everyone has a nice speed buff so that would help her keep up with the rest of the cast. But I think one of the issues about this game is the balloon knockback. I think it is going to effect her combo game. Also, her dash seems to have a tad bit more end lag to me, which isn't a serious issue, but it was one of her combo starters other than grab. Which is kinda unsafe if you miss it due to her grab being a tether grab.

So idk, I mean im not going to say she is worse than Smash4, but im kinda leaning on the side of her being about the same. Probably higher low tier tbh. But again, we will just have to wait for the game to be released before we know for sure.

 

[Crystanium]

If jab 1 is fixed, then that would help. It won't lead into combos, but it's decent in SSB4.

I don't know why that person who played as Samus bothered with a sudden death. I understand he was playing against a female, but come on. That's just stupid.

The video you linked is 1v1 w/ items. Full Charge Shot just dealt 29.4% damage. In a 1v1 w/o items, it dealt 35.2% damage. Samus' CS normally does 26% damage in all SSB games upon a new match or respawn. Otherwise, it just deals 25% damage. This is very interesting.

Samus in general, has never been bad character.

She's been bad. She was at her best in SSBM. She's technically in the same spot right now as she was in SSB. Samus definitely plays better than she did in SSBB, but without a reliable combo set-up, that's going to hurt her.

As you said, she has projectiles and semi decent frame data.

Believe it or not, Samus doesn't even have the best projectile game. Homing and super missiles don't have good priority and a full Charge Shot can be stopped by Link's bombs, Sheik's burst grenade, and Pac-Man's power pellet. Power pellets are the worst. Charge Shot can be absorbed or reflected, limiting Samus' option to kill. Duck Hunt, Link, Mega Man, and Toon Link have way better projectile games. It annoys me that Mega Man's lemons will travel farther now. In spite of that having a Sakurai angle, it surprises me how effective it is. Maybe Samus' jab should be replaced with beams.

Plus this game, everyone has a nice speed buff so that would help her keep up with the rest of the cast.

Not if the rest of the cast got the same treatment. In a vacuum it looks good, but compared to everyone else, how much is it going to benefit Samus?

But I think one of the issues about this game is the balloon knockback. I think it is going to effect her combo game. Also, her dash seems to have a tad bit more end lag to me, which isn't a serious issue, but it was one of her combo starters other than grab. Which is kinda unsafe if you miss it due to her grab being a tether grab.

Tether grab got a buff from 70 frames to 60 frames. That's 1 second, but that makes a huge difference.

 

[Deleted member]

If jab 1 is fixed, then that would help. It won't lead into combos, but it's decent in SSB4.

I don't know why that person who played as Samus bothered with a sudden death. I understand he was playing against a female, but come on. That's just stupid.

The video you linked is 1v1 w/ items. Full Charge Shot just dealt 29.4% damage. In a 1v1 w/o items, it dealt 35.2% damage. Samus' CS normally does 26% damage in all SSB games upon a new match or respawn. Otherwise, it just deals 25% damage. This is very interesting.



She's been bad. She was at her best in SSBM. She's technically in the same spot right now as she was in SSB. Samus definitely plays better than she did in SSBB, but without a reliable combo set-up, that's going to hurt her.



Believe it or not, Samus doesn't even have the best projectile game. Homing and super missiles don't have good priority and a full Charge Shot can be stopped by Link's bombs, Sheik's burst grenade, and Pac-Man's power pellet. Power pellets are the worst. Charge Shot can be absorbed or reflected, limiting Samus' option to kill. Duck Hunt, Link, Mega Man, and Toon Link have way better projectile games. It annoys me that Mega Man's lemons will travel farther now. In spite of that having a Sakurai angle, it surprises me how effective it is. Maybe Samus' jab should be replaced with beams.



Not if the rest of the cast got the same treatment. In a vacuum it looks good, but compared to everyone else, how much is it going to benefit Samus?



Tether grab got a buff from 70 frames to 60 frames. That's 1 second, but that makes a huge difference.

I understand. And you make good points. However, Bad is like bottom tier, and Samus does for better than that of a bottom tier, yes her projectiles arent the best, but lots of bottom tier and even high tier characters would like to have what she has.

Take Zelda for example, she was BAD in Smash4. Really bad. She had no safe approach or neutral, (which unlike Samus, can charge neutral b, that already puts fear in the opponent,) She had bad range on her moves and the moves that had range were very laggy and unsafe (Fair, Bair, Ftilt, Dtilt,) again, Samus moves were a bit quicker and safer. Also, the speed up of the game will help her, because, like Zelda, having a speed up on her moves is more important than speed up on say sheik fair. Those moves will be used the same because they were always good, but Samus moves will be used, thanks to way the game is, start combos and confirms going. Since they will be quicker.

In my opinion, I dont think she is that bad, she is better than a bottom tier, but she isn't as good as say a mid tier. So in my opinion, I think she will end up landing in the higher end of the low tier section. Yes I understand, that isn't good, or even viable. But I dont believe she is going to be worse than Smash4.

Something worth noting, Samus Up B looks stronger, with greater knockback and its looks better than Smash4. So that is a kill option at higher percents.

Also, one last thing to note, nearly every character is going to be affected differently because of the knockback in this game, most of the high tiers like Mario and Cloud have been nerfed because the balloon knockback. So it affect them also.

 

[meleebrawler]

Believe it or not, Samus doesn't even have the best projectile game. Homing and super missiles don't have good priority and a full Charge Shot can be stopped by Link's bombs, Sheik's burst grenade, and Pac-Man's power pellet. Power pellets are the worst. Charge Shot can be absorbed or reflected, limiting Samus' option to kill. Duck Hunt, Link, Mega Man, and Toon Link have way better projectile games. It annoys me that Mega Man's lemons will travel farther now. In spite of that having a Sakurai angle, it surprises me how effective it is. Maybe Samus' jab should be replaced with beams.

The things you list as beating Samus's charge shot work for ALL projectiles, because they all have hurtboxes and that's just how non-piercing projectiles interact with them. Are they not a problem for Mewtwo and Lucario as well?

 

[Crystanium]

The things you list as beating Samus's charge shot work for ALL projectiles, because they all have hurtboxes and that's just how non-piercing projectiles interact with them. Are they not a problem for Mewtwo and Lucario as well?

My main issue with charging Charge Shot is that it takes 2.333 seconds. I'm not speaking on behalf of Mewtwo or Lucario. Fast characters make charging more difficult. Not to mention, if you are about to fire and someone hits you, you just wasted 2.333 seconds. Sakurai said he would have made Cloud's specials more powerful if Limit could be interrupted like that. Why didn't he do the same for everyone who had to charge? That's inconsistent.

Anyway, here's hoping Samus' Charge Shot will still deal 35.2% damage post-production.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'll tell you what I disagree with: the notion that making Samus more projectile-based like Megaman will magically make her better. The reason it works for him is because he has tons of options in his Robot Master weapons with drastically different trajectories and effects to cover his bases. Out of all of Samus's weapons over the years, has there ever been one (not including bombs) that doesn't just fly straight ahead, or maybe home in on stuff? No matter how you slice it, she'll have to have more melee attacks because she just doesn't have enough utility in her weapons as a whole to fill a moveset. The most different beams would do is change aesthetics, or be mere sidegrades than tangible improvements.

 

[Crystanium]

I'll tell you what I disagree with: the notion that making Samus more projectile-based like Megaman will magically make her better. The reason it works for him is because he has tons of options in his Robot Master weapons with drastically different trajectories and effects to cover his bases. Out of all of Samus's weapons over the years, has there ever been one (not including bombs) that doesn't just fly straight ahead, or maybe home in on stuff? No matter how you slice it, she'll have to have more melee attacks because she just doesn't have enough utility in her weapons as a whole to fill a moveset. The most different beams would do is change aesthetics, or be mere sidegrades than tangible improvements.

Who are you referring to here?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Who are you referring to here?

Some users in a topic made by Quillion talking about the veterans' movesets, on the General Thread. For the record, I also disagree with Samus being a Megaman 2.0, she can have CQC and projectiles on one moveset that would suit her unlike the Blue Bomber. Though, I wouldn't mind her stealing Mii Gunner's Side Smash and Down Smash.

Back to topic, the dash attack knockback angle actually does hurt her viability. Samus had a combo tree in Smash 4 that followed off a DA, which would allow her to deal considerable amounts of damage. Easily her bread and butter combos.

 

[Crystanium]

Some users in a topic made by Quillion talking about the veterans' movesets, on the General Thread. For the record, I also disagree with Samus being a Megaman 2.0, she can have CQC and projectiles on one moveset that would suit her unlike the Blue Bomber. Though, I wouldn't mind her stealing Mii Gunner's Side Smash and Down Smash.

Back to topic, the dash attack knockback angle actually does hurt her viability. Samus had a combo tree in Smash 4 that followed off a DA, which would allow her to deal considerable amounts of damage. Easily her bread and butter combos.

It wouldn't be much of a problem if d-throw could do what DA can do. The problem is that d-throw doesn't always lead into a combo. Certain characters can avoid it, whereas having DA as a back-up would address this problem. A good example of this is trying d-throw to f-air against Cloud at 0%. Maybe this changes eventually, but not at that point. Of course, without DA, the alternative is to allow for Cloud to charge Limit so that d-throw to f-air becomes confirmed, even if he's at 0%.

 

[meleebrawler]

Back to topic, the dash attack knockback angle actually does hurt her viability. Samus had a combo tree in Smash 4 that followed off a DA, which would allow her to deal considerable amounts of damage. Easily her bread and butter combos.

That's easy to say when we know next to nothing about the new things she can do. So far I've only heard knee-jerk reactions from Sm4sh players instead of well-thought out experimentation.

Bowser and DK lost their kill combo throws but have gained a lot to compensate, in addition to throw combos and grabs across the board being nerfed.

 

[Deleted member]

I heard this too but I dismiss it a bit. I heard like you said nerfed dash attack and a laggy roll. I really don't see this as too much as a game changer IMO. Like said above, she was always a decent character who relies on projectiles for nickel and dime damage and then going for the kill when she gets the moment like a charged shot or dash attack which might be a reliable kill move upon release. mix this up with her Zair and aerials and I think she will be fine. her weakness where some of her hitboxes which I'm sure will get fixed. Her roll is faster. less lag on jump ( good for Zair ) and landing lag in which her aerials were good for aggressive pressure, combos, and keep away. A huge buff being able to charge shot in the air can make her a rather more unpredictable foe as you can launch an opponent and control / guard their options making it a guess rather. some of these changes were universal though so many character especially heavies benefit from the new game engine including Samus so it's a bit blurry. We'll have to see but I will place her in mid tier at best.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

That's easy to say when we know next to nothing about the new things she can do. So far I've only heard knee-jerk reactions from Sm4sh players instead of well-thought out experimentation.

Bowser and DK lost their kill combo throws but have gained a lot to compensate, in addition to throw combos and grabs across the board being nerfed.

That is true, lots of reactions seem to be kneejerk and people need to wait until the game comes out before passing judgement. It still doesn't change the fact that Samus lost a very good tool from Smash 4 despite gaining new ones.
The final build might be different, and patches will be a thing, so I'm actually hopeful in that regard.

 

[meleebrawler]

My hypothesis is that they're trying to make Samus more of a powerhouse character with a good deal of killpower. Higher knockback seems to be present on a lot of moves, and that can help her zone better.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I do wonder if her zoning abilities will be better. In Smash 4, she was more of a combo character with zoning tools rather than a full zoner.

 

[meleebrawler]

I do wonder if her zoning abilities will be better. In Smash 4, she was more of a combo character with zoning tools rather than a full zoner.

Well, we now have contact-explosion bombs and super missiles with a launch delay, plus the new riskier airdodges in tandem with homing missiles and air charging which could make for scarier landing pressure and edgeguarding. And the tried-and-true zair which probably just needs some tweaks.

 

[Lorisaur]

Samus got a bunch of interesting buffs, namely better roll (if that counts...), greater speed, aerials with less landing lag, stronger up-B, side-B with slow startup that doesn't stop aerial forward momentum improving its ability to cover her recovery, and probably more. However, her grab is not reliable at all as a combo starter. As she lost the dash attack, she finds herself without a true objective, besides air pressuring with Zair, Bair and specials. As of being a sm4sh Samus main, I can tell that most of the old Samus playstyle came from the fear of a dash attack: the opponent wanted to be at a safe distance and strike when he could exploit her weaknesses like being slow. Now, an opponent will be able to play a more reckless neutral (especially with faster character as Sheik, Squirtle or Bayonetta in my opinion) and it will be hard to stop them with the aforementioned spacing tools. It's this what makes her worse than before: she has better mobility and kill power, but game mechanics don't help defensive playstyles and dash attack was her main aggressive tool (as downthrow and falling upair are strong but much harder to land in higher level play). Last thing, Ultimate is much less shield-based than smash 4, so slower grabs are even worse in my opinion. Additionally, I think that Dark Samus is just so better, and she might even be high tier as a character. Her dash attack is just better, for both knockback and other properties as it pushes forward Dark Samus instead of stopping her possibly making easier followups with upair or fair. Most of her attacks are electrical, including throws, and this means one frame of additional hitstun which is almost nothing but maybe significant in certain situations and most importantly it makes her attacks better than Samus' ones. Not to mention her roll, everyone knows about it. Probably, the only reasons to play Samus instead of her are the downB (if you really prefer her bombs to mixup the recovery), her upB (rumors say that Dark Samus' screw attack has no kill power, a bit like in melee. However, all hits have electrical properties, so they link one in each other better than Samus) and a slightly better hurtbox shifting when jumping backwards. However, I belive that Dark Samus is much stronger. The roll alone is enough to make her competitively viable.

Of course all this is just personal opinion and speculation

 

[meleebrawler]

Samus got a bunch of interesting buffs, namely better roll (if that counts...), greater speed, aerials with less landing lag, stronger up-B, side-B with slow startup that doesn't stop aerial forward momentum improving its ability to cover her recovery, and probably more. However, her grab is not reliable at all as a combo starter. As she lost the dash attack, she finds herself without a true objective, besides air pressuring with Zair, Bair and specials. As of being a sm4sh Samus main, I can tell that most of the old Samus playstyle came from the fear of a dash attack: the opponent wanted to be at a safe distance and strike when he could exploit her weaknesses like being slow. Now, an opponent will be able to play a more reckless neutral (especially with faster character as Sheik, Squirtle or Bayonetta in my opinion) and it will be hard to stop them with the aforementioned spacing tools. It's this what makes her worse than before: she has better mobility and kill power, but game mechanics don't help defensive playstyles and dash attack was her main aggressive tool (as downthrow and falling upair are strong but much harder to land in higher level play). Last thing, Ultimate is much less shield-based than smash 4, so slower grabs are even worse in my opinion. Additionally, I think that Dark Samus is just so better, and she might even be high tier as a character. Her dash attack is just better, for both knockback and other properties as it pushes forward Dark Samus instead of stopping her possibly making easier followups with upair or fair. Most of her attacks are electrical, including throws, and this means one frame of additional hitstun which is almost nothing but maybe significant in certain situations and most importantly it makes her attacks better than Samus' ones. Not to mention her roll, everyone knows about it. Probably, the only reasons to play Samus instead of her are the downB (if you really prefer her bombs to mixup the recovery), her upB (rumors say that Dark Samus' screw attack has no kill power, a bit like in melee. However, all hits have electrical properties, so they link one in each other better than Samus) and a slightly better hurtbox shifting when jumping backwards. However, I belive that Dark Samus is much stronger. The roll alone is enough to make her competitively viable.

Of course all this is just personal opinion and speculation

Everything you said about Dark Samus is either unsubstantiated or wrong. Her roll is not faster than Samus's and we have no proof of her dash attack, or any other move for that matter has any significant differences other than the electric properties.

Bombs exploding on touch and super missiles hanging in place for a second like Lloid, and extremely minimal landing lag will do enough to hold off pressure while giving her opportunities to land her own hits. She won't rely on combos like she used to, but that doesn't make her bad for certain. Her "objective" is to keep the opponent out of arm's reach as much as possible, making it difficult for them to approach without doing something they can be punished for: the objective of any zoner, or "gunner" if you will.

 

[Lorisaur]

Everything you said about Dark Samus is either unsubstantiated or wrong. Her roll is not faster than Samus's and we have no proof of her dash attack, or any other move for that matter has any significant differences other than the electric properties.

Bombs exploding on touch and super missiles hanging in place for a second like Lloid, and extremely minimal landing lag will do enough to hold off pressure while giving her opportunities to land her own hits. She won't rely on combos like she used to, but that doesn't make her bad for certain. Her "objective" is to keep the opponent out of arm's reach as much as possible, making it difficult for them to approach without doing something they can be punished for: the objective of any zoner, or "gunner" if you will.

To be honest, there are proofs about most Dark Samus moves. Both her rolls have been shown in the vs chrom gameplay, the dash attack is likely to have combos according to the reveal trailer, also bomb explosion has a different effect on Dark Samus and players may like it or not. The only move I'm not certain about is the upB, as some people say that it has less knockback but I didn't really catch the reasons. The hurtbox shifting instead has been shown in the gameplay, and that's really a minor thing. It's the roll the big deal, without going to morph ball it's much harder to read and at least, it is a normal roll, not a reactable movement option that will almost always get punished.
However, in my opinion any zoner has the goal to keep the enemy away to hit at the right moment, not to just add random percent to kill with a special or a kill throw, or what happens. I'm taking as an example R.O.B., Mii Gunner, Rosalina or Toon Link as examples of characters with very clear objectives who have a defensive style. The goal of those Fairs, Bombs, Nairs, Gyros or whatever according to the character is just to get a grab or a kill confirm according to the percent. Samus sadly has no more this, and while her improved tools are certainly very good she can get much less of many other characters out of a neutral - which is also harder for her in this game. I'm not saying she is bad and I truly hope she is not as Samus is like my favourite smash character (altough we also have Dark Samus and Ridley now...) but I think she will be a bit worse than in smash 4.

 

[meleebrawler]

To be honest, there are proofs about most Dark Samus moves. Both her rolls have been shown in the vs chrom gameplay, the dash attack is likely to have combos according to the reveal trailer, also bomb explosion has a different effect on Dark Samus and players may like it or not. The only move I'm not certain about is the upB, as some people say that it has less knockback but I didn't really catch the reasons. The hurtbox shifting instead has been shown in the gameplay, and that's really a minor thing. It's the roll the big deal, without going to morph ball it's much harder to read and at least, it is a normal roll, not a reactable movement option that will almost always get punished.
However, in my opinion any zoner has the goal to keep the enemy away to hit at the right moment, not to just add random percent to kill with a special or a kill throw, or what happens. I'm taking as an example R.O.B., Mii Gunner, Rosalina or Toon Link as examples of characters with very clear objectives who have a defensive style. The goal of those Fairs, Bombs, Nairs, Gyros or whatever according to the character is just to get a grab or a kill confirm according to the percent. Samus sadly has no more this, and while her improved tools are certainly very good she can get much less of many other characters out of a neutral - which is also harder for her in this game. I'm not saying she is bad and I truly hope she is not as Samus is like my favourite smash character (altough we also have Dark Samus and Ridley now...) but I think she will be a bit worse than in smash 4.

Did you count the frames of her roll? And if we believed trailer combos than Mewtwo's down throw is an excellent combo throw.

The truth is we know basically nothing of Dark Samus. We have only one 2v2 match to go off of, from a build that is easily subject to change. Maybe she'll be closer to like you say, but she could just as easily be an almost carbon copy of for all we know.

 

[Crystanium]

If at 14:08 that was all performed without DI, it'll be a shame. Otherwise, that looked pretty damn good. And this CPU uses z-air more than I've ever seen any human player use it. It gives me hope for z-air.

 

[Lorisaur]

If at 14:08 that was all performed without DI, it'll be a shame. Otherwise, that looked pretty damn good. And this CPU uses z-air more than I've ever seen any human player use it. It gives me hope for z-air.

I truly belive that z-air will be good. It's longer and has maybe a faster FAF (not sure about that but it looks like). I don't know about the DI, we have a downthrow at 15:08 that was obviously DIed IN and by comparing the angles i would say the one at 14:08 was with right DI but who knows. However, she will surely have very good combos out of it. I however only fear she wont have good confirms into it... will she get the much needed grabs? However I feel like Zair and Throws are much more reliable to zone / start combos than they were in sm4sh

 

[meleebrawler]

I truly belive that z-air will be good. It's longer and has maybe a faster FAF (not sure about that but it looks like). I don't know about the DI, we have a downthrow at 15:08 that was obviously DIed IN and by comparing the angles i would say the one at 14:08 was with right DI but who knows. However, she will surely have very good combos out of it. I however only fear she wont have good confirms into it... will she get the much needed grabs? However I feel like Zair and Throws are much more reliable to zone / start combos than they were in sm4sh

Contact explosives, dangling zair... if Samus has something that can combo into Charge Shot then it'd pretty much be the return of .

 

[Lorisaur]

Contact explosives, dangling zair... if Samus has something that can combo into Charge Shot then it'd pretty much be the return of .

Don't think we'll see something like that. At least... not something competitively reliable. Ok, specials and grapple beam are all better but will this be enough? She also have something like the almost only upair nerfed and that's sad

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't think we'll see something like that. At least... not something competitively reliable. Ok, specials and grapple beam are all better but will this be enough? She also have something like the almost only upair nerfed and that's sad

It wasn't very good for landing anyway, you'll just have to get used to using down-air as your new combo-starting aerial. Untechable meteors cause a lot of hitstun you know.