I Choose You! A Pokémon Trainer Matchup Thread!

Call_Me_Red

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#1
This thread is to discuss the best and worst match ups for Pokemon trainer, or any of the three Pokemon.

I'll start by saying that :ultmegaman: is a very tough match up for any of the three 'mons. He keeps Squirtle out, he out projectiles Ivysaur, and Charizard is combo food. I think the best option here is to probably rapidly switch to mix it up and hopefully sneak in an advantage.
 

Daedra

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#2
.also for those more educated with PT i'd love to know which pokemon (in ur opinion) do better per character matchup & why

edit: I'll start (or try 2 =[)

:ultcloud: Cloud - Speedy boi with a long sword n silly recovery, our second fav next to ike

Cloud's play is gonna be to make their opponent ( PT ) the aggressor.
as PT our job is to bait out cloud with any of the three as much as we possibly can and i'm gonna try to list our struggles of getting there

Squirtle is okay if you can be as unpredictable as possible. squirts plan is get in and get out if you're feeling bold enough to approach with him. Cloud's projectiles make being squirt annoying, and having to rush down makes cloud happy since he has a reason to get a good use out of limit when expecting a rush down. sh dair is decent but f smash is gonna get easy to be hit by and fh is asking for an up air. even withdrawal is risky because of cloud's projectile. of course squirt has his sick watergun if you manage to get cloud off stage and for some reason he doesn't want to recover low which is silly and unlikely, unfortunately.

Ivysaur's back air is a great tool of course, fair is good too but slower. i feel like ivy has a tendency to be juggled easily and that is cloud's favorite thing to do. baiting an upair for a switch into charizard punish would be pretty sick lol. we have razor leaf too but cloud's projectiles are so tall so use this as patiently and precise as possible

Charizard rocks against sword characters imo. being slow is a struggle but as i said our job here is patiently baiting. out of shield options available to zard really pay off and however you get this man cloud off stage you better sprint to that ledge and flamethrower till ur coughing smoke. also note as it may be costly but side special to recover high is always an option here

i know there's a more educated PT main out there so please correct my mistakes and verbally assault me as minimally as possible. <3


if u have insight on any of these matchups please share, ive only played against these online like once
:ultpichu::ultpeach:

i asked about bayo initially but then just used my shield n grabs with ivy n zard n that settled that xD
:ultbayonetta:
 
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Call_Me_Red

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#5
if u have insight on any of these matchups please share, ive only played against these online like once
:ultkrool::ultpichu::ultpeach:
King K main here. Squirtle is your best bet for racking up damage, since he can work around K Rool's armor. Ivysaur is insanely good at juggling and at gimping K Rool, but K Rool's crown beats razor leaf (unless you can spam it fast enough). Charizard's speed makes it easy to get around K Rool's moves. You have to know when to attack and retreat against K Rool, but overall don't be afraid of him.
 
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Superyoshiom

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#7
if anyone has insight on fox plz share immediately
When playing Fox I generally don't use squirtle too much, but just space out with Ivysaur's razor leave and then try to get below him for some aerials. Eventually after I've gotten some good damage I'd change into Zard and look for either fairs or kill throws since he is fairly light.
 

Superyoshiom

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#11
Ok so I'm going to need some MU advice against Villager/Isabelle, Simon/Richter and Pichu/Pikachu (especially Pichu). These matchups are unbelievably annoying and unfun for me to deal with.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#12
Ok so I'm going to need some MU advice against Villager/Isabelle, Simon/Richter and Pichu/Pikachu (especially Pichu). These matchups are unbelievably annoying and unfun for me to deal with.
With my limited matchup knowledge, for both Vilsabelle and the Belmonts, Squirtle is your main dude. His rush down beats all of their up-close options and can manuever around their ranged options. Side-B is particularly good against the Belmonts since it can beat their projectiles by sheer force or by sliding under them. Once you have them in disdvantage or offtage, switch to Ivy to hopefully close out a stock (Squirtle is still really good at gimping Belmonts). And if Ivy doesnt do the trick, get them in disadvantage again and switch to Zard for his reach and power.

As for Pikachu and Pichu, it's really a toss up for which character they can't handle. I'd say Squirtle (rush down) or Ivysaur (zone) is your best bet. Charizard kinda just gets combo'd to death. Squirtle is fine, but the 'Chus do what Squirtle does but better. Ivy is actually surprisingly good at gimping them with down air, and keeping them out with vinewhips. Overall it's a tough match up, but very do-able.
 
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Call_Me_Red

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#13
When playing Fox I generally don't use squirtle too much, but just space out with Ivysaur's razor leave and then try to get below him for some aerials. Eventually after I've gotten some good damage I'd change into Zard and look for either fairs or kill throws since he is fairly light.
I actually disagree. I think Squirtle is the best against Fox. He has the tools to escape combos, he's amazing at keeping Fox off stage (especially with Water Gun), and his small hurtbox + speed gives Fox a rough time connecting a KO. I do think the optimal KO would be: Squirtle gets Fox offstage -> Squirtle applies pressure ->Squirtle switches to Ivysaur -> Ivysaur uses Dair on Fox's predicatble recovery. However, using solo Ivysaur doesn't usually work (for me at least) because Fox can just smother me and Ivysaur is easy to combo.
 

Daedra

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#14
Any advice for samus? I get sad at the camping projectile playstyle a lot of them use
Edit: I think I figured this out myself. Samus camping like she does makes being squirtle super easy. Once you get in make sure you stay in as racking up damage is squirts best trait. I think going to charizard for the kill is better than Ivy because samus outzones Ivy unfortunately. =)






Also bayonetta is confusing to play against, any tips I’d appreciate the heck out of u
 
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Superyoshiom

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#15
Anyone know how to play against Wario and Incineroar? I was getting by bodied by a player who was really good at both yesterday and there was nothing I could really do.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#16
Anyone know how to play against Wario and Incineroar? I was getting by bodied by a player who was really good at both yesterday and there was nothing I could really do.
Squirtle stomps Incin. He's way too fast for Incineroar to do anything, and water gun makes his already bad recovery a joke. Mixing up with Ivysaur and outspacing is also a viable tactic.

Wario's weakness is that he has no range at all. Ivysaur and Charizard are you answer here. Be careful when waft is charged, especially with Zard. Other than that, avoid combo starters, mainly Neutral Air, and don't get gimped by his new and improved Dair, and you have a useless Wario.
 

Superyoshiom

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#17
Squirtle stomps Incin. He's way too fast for Incineroar to do anything, and water gun makes his already bad recovery a joke. Mixing up with Ivysaur and outspacing is also a viable tactic.

Wario's weakness is that he has no range at all. Ivysaur and Charizard are you answer here. Be careful when waft is charged, especially with Zard. Other than that, avoid combo starters, mainly Neutral Air, and don't get gimped by his new and improved Dair, and you have a useless Wario.
My issue with Incineroar is his side b, it comes out real quick and sends me flying as Squirtle.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#18
My issue with Incineroar is his side b, it comes out real quick and sends me flying as Squirtle.
I found that if you just don't give them any room to breath, they won't be able to side-b, or also use Squirtle's speed and jumps to stay out of reach. Specifically make them afraid to come out of shield. Squirtle's air game is good enough to avoid side-b vertically, IMO. Baiting out a side-b can also lead to some tasty punishes.

Does Squirtle side-b beat Incineroar side-b?
 
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Daedra

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#19
Ok so I'm going to need some MU advice against Villager/Isabelle, Simon/Richter and Pichu/Pikachu (especially Pichu). These matchups are unbelievably annoying and unfun for me to deal with.
Villager - Im not familiar with animal crossing but villager has the move with the moving bomb. This makes Squirtles Shell approach basically useless. Squirtles can rack up % as usual depending on how bad the player is, for experienced villager mains they’ll punish with bombs shovel and slingshot which makes squirtle good in a sense but you get more worth out of not using him here.

Ivy rocks. Villager’s moves are all for spacing. Shovel to bowling ball is his go to kill move. So guess what... don’t get close enough to get shoveled!! Razorleaf beats the bombs, and villager mains love going off ledge and sling shotting so get ready to dair the heck out of em and especially when they’re recovering low! You can even get below them and upair the heck out of em before they grab ledge it’s sick. Villagers tend to dair into jab since it’s so fast. If you block the dair, full hop dair with ivy is nice other then that maybe a bullet seed or just hold shield for the least risky option.

Charizard is okay not really. He’s super useful for bair’ing off stage when villager is recovering with balloons. Also flare blitz works against bombs but blows up both you and villager and results in a pretty even trade so be careful.

All in all Ivy def takes this matchup, playing neutral with bair, fair, and razor leaf. Don’t be the aggressor here and you’ll end up happy.

=)
 
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Lypion

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#20
Against pichu space him out with ivy. Don't approach at all and try to dodge his attacks to let it rack up dmg itself. Pichu is very hard to punish due to its low ending lag so you gotta abuse movement as much as possible and when you get in once you can kill it really early with downthrow -> sweetspot up b at around 60% for example
 
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#21
Great thread! I would like to chime in with my two cents. Nothing character specific but maybe general game plans for the ginormous amount of matchups we gotta deal with.

:ultcharizard:Charizard generally does pretty well against swordies (Cloud included). Flamethrower is great for keeping non-projectile users out and Usmash will be your go-to move here. It's a quick anti-air and punishes most swordies for short-hopping too frequently. Besides that, don't be afraid to hold shield against swords (obviously be careful of shield breaker) but getting thrown by a swordie is really not bad at all. Usmash, again, is amazing out of shield. In general, I would try to throw opponents off stage and go for the early gimp. Nair is so huge and bair is obviously very powerful so throwing your opponent off-stage is gonna be ideal in these match-ups.

:ultivysaur:Ivy generally has favorable match-ups all across the board but his defense is horrid so be very careful against combo-heavy characters. Ivysaur really excels against most heavies, in my opinion. Their predictable recoveries make for easy Dair spikes and Razor Leaf is amazing at keeping them out. Obviously, spacing with Bair is gonna be your bread and butter. I like using Nair out of shield, too.

:ultsquirtle:Squirtle is great for racking up damage against heavies and slower characters. Squirtle becomes the most useful against zoners because Ivy can't fight back using Razor Leaf and Charizard is a huge target. Jump around projectiles and use Withdraw to get in. Rack up the damage once you get in and let the other two finish up.

Honestly, I don't see any match-ups being super terrible. The difficult ones just require you to switch more often and ideally in each circumstance. For example, I know :ultwolf::ultfox: can be tough but not impossible. Water Gun helps so keeping that in the pocket is super useful.
 

REAPERenvy

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#22
Ive been trying to main PT but just cant get the stupid character down like i get destroyed by deedee and DK all day and it really makes me mad and not want to play the game anymore. I cant even find someone else to play cause PT is the only one that I find enjoyment in playing.
 
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#23
My issue with Incineroar is his side b, it comes out real quick and sends me flying as Squirtle.
try approaching him from the air. If you space out your aerials so that you land behind him, he can't really punish you unless you goof your approach. That and squirtle should outspeed most of his options. Keep in mind Incineroar has little approach options and laggy moves. So if you want you can also play completely defensive and just punish Incineroar's approach.
 
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#24
One way to deal with zoners is to use Water Gun to push them off the stage. Most of them have much less options in the air/ off stage. You're also in a good position with Ivysaur to edgeguard after a Water Gun. This helps a lot with the :ultyounglink::ultgunner::ultmegaman: match-ups.

Inkling :ultinkling: feels like a bad match-up because she outranges Squirtle, can rush down Ivysaur, and straight up wrecks Charizard. I find myself switching a lot during this match-up but Ivysaur seems to do the best by keeping her at mid-range. She also edgeguards really well and Ivysaur's Dair is really hard to hit on her recovery.
 

Adamonado

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#25
Honestly, I don't see any match-ups being super terrible. The difficult ones just require you to switch more often and ideally in each circumstance. For example, I know :ultwolf::ultfox: can be tough but not impossible. Water Gun helps so keeping that in the pocket is super useful.
I use a lot of Squirtle in the Fox mu, since Fox's fall speed is so fast Squirtle can get a lot of damage off of one opening. Once you get Fox offstage, just switch to Ivy and you should be able to close out the stock. Same thing with Wolf, but I feel that Ivy is more important here than in the Fox mu. Wolf is less explosive so it is easier to keep him out with Ivy and he cannot combo Ivy as dangerously as Fox.
 
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Call_Me_Red

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#27
On a different note: any advice on the :ultinkling: matchup? She's one of the only characters that I feel uncomfortable with all three pokemon against.
Full disclosure: I only recently picked PT back up and haven't faced a good inkling yet using PT. However, there are multiple solid Inklings in my region who I face regularly.

I would recommend using Ivy or even, dare I say it, Charizard. Squirtle wouldn't be very useful since Inkling just does everything better (speedy with better projectiles and reach). Ivy could be good at keeping Inkling at a distance, and has the range to stuff out approaches. Same reasoning for Charizard, of course Inkling can combo and out-speed 'Zard, so be careful. Inkling really struggles off stage despite their good recovery, so that's your time to shine, and based off your profile picture I'm sure you know what to do.

Another one of Inkling's weak points is getting the KO. Most of the time they'll use roller, forward air, or up air to seal a stock. Learn to avoid these and punish and you'll be golden. They can rack up all the percent they want but it doesn't matter if they can't land the KO. Word of advice, do not challenge any of their KO options. They have disjoints and are very fast, it's better to shield / dodge and punish accordingly.

Holler if I didn't cover anything.
 
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Call_Me_Red

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#28
View attachment 186094
View attachment 186097
source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4O7jdLTDM0

bad (in terms of detail) but decent enough run down on peach vs PT
zards out of shield up smash is insane here
How does this hold up 2 1/2 months later? I played a Peach last night on Elite and Charizard was just getting bodied. I couldn't touch her because of the weird angles she'd approach from and the turnips kept me out. Squirtle, however, made a mess of her. I still didn't do great because of match up knowledge, but I think Squirtle is the go-to in this match up. Ivysaur was pretty middle of the road between Squirtle and Zard.

Thoughts?
 

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#29
Anyone got Matchup tips against Snake?
I think Pokemon Trainer beats Snake pretty convincingly.

2/3 of his pokemon, Squirtle and Ivysaur, are problematic for the mercenary.

Squirtle has a relatively easy time comboing him due to his weight and fall speed class, so long as the combo is true Snake can't pull out grenades to escape. His speed and small size also lets him approach Snake with relative ease.

Ivysaur is the real deal though. She (she? idk lol that's what I hear) keeps him out with razor leaf and ranged hitboxes, and she abuses his biggest issues -- disadvantage on the ledge, and landing -- really well.

Charizard is probably the easiest for Snake to deal with as he can deal a lot of damage to him by abusing his size and weight class. He isn't free though, being a fast running heavy he can catch up to Snake at least and he hits hard. I'd say he does a pretty effective job of securing the KO, then you switch you Squirtle to start the combo again. I wouldn't purely use Charizard against Snake myself, as Snake bodies almost all heavies (Dedede being the exception, imo).

It's Snake's worst matchup I'd say, doable for Snake still since he has tools to win every matchup imo, but this one feels like the hardest to me mainly due to Ivysaur's ranged answers and Razor Leaf.
 
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Adamonado

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#30
I think Pokemon Trainer beats Snake pretty convincingly.

2/3 of his pokemon, Squirtle and Ivysaur, are problematic for the mercenary.

Squirtle has a relatively easy time comboing him due to his weight and fall speed class, so long as the combo is true Snake can't pull out grenades to escape. His speed and small size also lets him approach Snake with relative ease.

Ivysaur is the real deal though. She (she? idk lol that's what I hear) keeps him out with razor leaf and ranged hitboxes, and she abuses his biggest issues -- disadvantage on the ledge, and landing -- really well.

Charizard is probably the easiest for Snake to deal with as he can deal a lot of damage to him by abusing his size and weight class. He isn't free though, being a fast running heavy he can catch up to Snake at least and he hits hard. I'd say he does a pretty effective job of securing the KO, then you switch you Squirtle to start the combo again. I wouldn't purely use Charizard against Snake myself, as Snake bodies almost all heavies (Dedede being the exception, imo).

It's Snake's worst matchup I'd say, doable for Snake still since he has tools to win every matchup imo, but this one feels like the hardest to me mainly due to Ivysaur's ranged answers and Razor Leaf.
I agree. Honestly the Ivysaur-Snake matchup alone is so much in Ivy's favor that you could honestly go solo Ivy against him, but using the others is obviously always helpful. I like to start my games against Snake as Squirtle to get good damage in and try to get him off stage. I switch to Ivy as soon as I get him offstage or as soon as I get to around 70%, because it's at that point that one well placed uptilt from Snake could put you a stock behind. Ivy is always a good pick since razor leaf blows up grenades and because uair and dair are such threats against Snakes poor disadvantage kit. I'll usually only go Zard when I'm at really high percents and I hope to survive or get a super early cheesy stock. Other than that, I'd stay away from Zard, since his killing options in this matchup specifically are inferior to Ivysaurs: Zard relies on hard reads and a bait-and-punish playstyle, and Snake is perfectly happy playing passively and without any risk taking. Even in advantage Ivy's options are almost always better than Zard in this matchup, but that does not mean that playing Zard has no reward--an offstage fair and especially bair can take Snake's stocks incredibly early. My game plan for dealing with Snake is mostly Ivysaur, some Squirtle, and a pinch of Zard.

One more small tip about the Snake-PT matchup, specifically about dealing with nikita: go Ivysaur, nair the nikita when it's nearby, and then immediately use up b. Otherwise Ivysaur is too exposed, as is Squirtle, and for some reason Zard superarmor on flare blitz and fly just don't seem to work against nikita. Do this and you can take away one of Snake's best tools.
How does this hold up 2 1/2 months later? I played a Peach last night on Elite and Charizard was just getting bodied. I couldn't touch her because of the weird angles she'd approach from and the turnips kept me out. Squirtle, however, made a mess of her. I still didn't do great because of match up knowledge, but I think Squirtle is the go-to in this match up. Ivysaur was pretty middle of the road between Squirtle and Zard.

Thoughts?
Regarding this, I don't got too much... while I'm not new to competitive smash, I am a full time student so I haven't competed in tournaments outside of my school. I know a lot about the Snake and Pichu matchups because a couple of the best players at my school tournaments use them, and I know some others via online play, but I have not run into many Peach's at all, and when I do I get bodied because of matchup inexperience... knowing how Peach works, I feel like Ivysaur would be the go-to since Peach struggles with range (right?). I think razor leaf would be key in finding openings and then capitalizing off of them. I don't think Squirtle would be bad, but getting close to Peach is scary and watergun is also kinda useless. Knowing Zard's strengths, theoretically he could be really good with oos up smash and up b, plus the range to make Peach approach him and not the other way around. If Zard was getting bodied, I'd say try working a bit on him and see how he works out in the future, but the fact of the matter is Pokemon Trainer is a character that rewards you for playing the three characters in tandem, so if the others are working for you then that's good.

If anyone knows the Peach matchup better, please correct me, I think I've played against peach 3 times the entire time the game's been out so I just have no idea.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#31
My take on the Pokemon Trainer match-ups. Open for discussion, please let me know where I'm wrong.
squirtle.png
ivysaur.png
charizard.png

And for clarification, these are particularly match ups based on neutral game, since each 'mon has their own unique function on a team.
 

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#32
One more small tip about the Snake-PT matchup, specifically about dealing with nikita: go Ivysaur, nair the nikita when it's nearby, and then immediately use up b. Otherwise Ivysaur is too exposed, as is Squirtle, and for some reason Zard superarmor on flare blitz and fly just don't seem to work against nikita. Do this and you can take away one of Snake's best tools.
No idea on Fly, but Flare Blitz is a fire element move and Nikita is an explosive, so it makes sense why Flare Blitz will blow it up. Perhaps with Fly it has to do with where the hitboxes are placed and Snake is hitting Zard's hurt box directly

Good summary of the MU. Historically Snakes worst matchup in Brawl were sword characters (MK and Marth) and with Ivy having swordlike range it is definetely super problematic for Snake
 

Adamonado

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#33
My take on the Pokemon Trainer match-ups. Open for discussion, please let me know where I'm wrong.

And for clarification, these are particularly match ups based on neutral game, since each 'mon has their own unique function on a team.
I will try to make my points more on the individual and not on the potential as a team.

Regarding Squirtle, I don't think he absolutely loses against Ivysaur and Snake. Ivysaur struggles mostly in disadvantage so Squirtle can potentially choke him out. I would say that Ivy has the advantage, but Squirtle can hold his own. Regarding Snake, take a look at my earlier message regarding the Snake matchup. He can combo and juggle snake forever, and watergun is good for messing up Snake's grenade traps. This is why it is hard to rank each individually, because Snake can kill Squirtle mega early and as soon as you get to that point you're gonna want to change to Ivysaur, but that's just part of the character... fact of the matter is, Squirtle can do a lot against Snake and he is a very important part to winning the matchup. I also think Squirtle does really well against Captain Falcon since he struggles against small, combo heavy characters, he can give Donkey Kong a hard time for the same reasons, same thing with Ike plus he can mess with his recovery with watergun, he does well against Roy and Chrom because they are fastfallers and he can get huge damage off them with combos, plus he can mess with Chrom's recovery even more than Ike's. I also feel like Squirtle gives Link a hard time due to Link's slow speed plus projectile heavy gameplay and fast fall speed. I don't play against many Pikachu's, but Squirtle is the go-to character against Pichu because Squirtle can match Pichu in speed, and while the matchup is just even, most including myself believe that Ivysaur loses to Pichu (doable matchup but favorable for Pichu, Ivy relies exclusively on razor leaf and bair and waiting for Pichu to mess up) and Zard gets obliterated by Pichu (like he literally cannot do anything), so it's good to just stick with the even matchup between Squirtle and Pichu. I'm guessing that Squirtle does about the same against Pikachu but Ivy and Zard both do better in that matchup so it doesn't matter too much. Shulk struggles against rushdown characters so I think Squirtle does pretty well in that matchup too, but it could just be even. I simply don't think he loses against Villager and that's all I have to say about that. I also think he does pretty well against Wario because of his small stature (landing up air is less of a threat) and comboing Wario is pretty easy. Wolf does not bother me too much either, he's a fast faller so you can combo him a lot and watergun is lethal against Wolf, even if withdraw is not as helpful due to laser. It is not too far fetched to say that Squirtle goes even with Falco and Fox but I think if anything he has an advantage because of similar reasons talked about above, and against Fox withdraw is really helpful. I think Squirtle destroys Ganon--while you could get hit with a random stray smash attack and just die, Squirtle just overpowers Ganon in neutral and he can get easy money gimps and combos. Theoretically I can see him beating Greninja too for the same reasons I've been stressing. I don't want to make it seem like I think Squirtle wins every matchup, so I'll point out that I think that Inkling kinda destroys Squirtle. He just gets outranged and Inkling's melee tools simply beat out Squirtle's. I know most of my critique of your chart has been in Squirtle's favor, but I think that Squirtle is incredibly underrated... with his great combo game, best disadvantage of the three, solid neutral, and near lagless moves, I think he's a low high tier character, while most others will put him somewhere in mid tier.

I've already said too much, so for now that where I'll finish my input. Maybe soon I'll make my own MU charts for the trio, but I'm gonna spend a bit more time learning the ones I don't know too well yet. It's really hard to rank them individually though, because that's stripping away a huge part of the characters... my above mentioned changes may not be the most accurate only because I consider Squirtle's best killing move to be down b. Even against what I'd consider Squirtle's "good" matchups, I usually opt to end the stock with Ivysaur and sometimes even Zard before moving back to Squirtle to play neutral. However, it's that uniqueness in the character that makes PT have such high potential, and I believe that as the meta progresses PT will only continue to go up in the tier list, maybe even to top tier.
 

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#34
I will try to make my points more on the individual and not on the potential as a team.

Regarding Squirtle, I don't think he absolutely loses against Ivysaur and Snake. Ivysaur struggles mostly in disadvantage so Squirtle can potentially choke him out. I would say that Ivy has the advantage, but Squirtle can hold his own. Regarding Snake, take a look at my earlier message regarding the Snake matchup. He can combo and juggle snake forever, and watergun is good for messing up Snake's grenade traps. This is why it is hard to rank each individually, because Snake can kill Squirtle mega early and as soon as you get to that point you're gonna want to change to Ivysaur, but that's just part of the character... fact of the matter is, Squirtle can do a lot against Snake and he is a very important part to winning the matchup. I also think Squirtle does really well against Captain Falcon since he struggles against small, combo heavy characters, he can give Donkey Kong a hard time for the same reasons, same thing with Ike plus he can mess with his recovery with watergun, he does well against Roy and Chrom because they are fastfallers and he can get huge damage off them with combos, plus he can mess with Chrom's recovery even more than Ike's. I also feel like Squirtle gives Link a hard time due to Link's slow speed plus projectile heavy gameplay and fast fall speed. I don't play against many Pikachu's, but Squirtle is the go-to character against Pichu because Squirtle can match Pichu in speed, and while the matchup is just even, most including myself believe that Ivysaur loses to Pichu (doable matchup but favorable for Pichu, Ivy relies exclusively on razor leaf and bair and waiting for Pichu to mess up) and Zard gets obliterated by Pichu (like he literally cannot do anything), so it's good to just stick with the even matchup between Squirtle and Pichu. I'm guessing that Squirtle does about the same against Pikachu but Ivy and Zard both do better in that matchup so it doesn't matter too much. Shulk struggles against rushdown characters so I think Squirtle does pretty well in that matchup too, but it could just be even. I simply don't think he loses against Villager and that's all I have to say about that. I also think he does pretty well against Wario because of his small stature (landing up air is less of a threat) and comboing Wario is pretty easy. Wolf does not bother me too much either, he's a fast faller so you can combo him a lot and watergun is lethal against Wolf, even if withdraw is not as helpful due to laser. It is not too far fetched to say that Squirtle goes even with Falco and Fox but I think if anything he has an advantage because of similar reasons talked about above, and against Fox withdraw is really helpful. I think Squirtle destroys Ganon--while you could get hit with a random stray smash attack and just die, Squirtle just overpowers Ganon in neutral and he can get easy money gimps and combos. Theoretically I can see him beating Greninja too for the same reasons I've been stressing. I don't want to make it seem like I think Squirtle wins every matchup, so I'll point out that I think that Inkling kinda destroys Squirtle. He just gets outranged and Inkling's melee tools simply beat out Squirtle's. I know most of my critique of your chart has been in Squirtle's favor, but I think that Squirtle is incredibly underrated... with his great combo game, best disadvantage of the three, solid neutral, and near lagless moves, I think he's a low high tier character, while most others will put him somewhere in mid tier.

I've already said too much, so for now that where I'll finish my input. Maybe soon I'll make my own MU charts for the trio, but I'm gonna spend a bit more time learning the ones I don't know too well yet. It's really hard to rank them individually though, because that's stripping away a huge part of the characters... my above mentioned changes may not be the most accurate only because I consider Squirtle's best killing move to be down b. Even against what I'd consider Squirtle's "good" matchups, I usually opt to end the stock with Ivysaur and sometimes even Zard before moving back to Squirtle to play neutral. However, it's that uniqueness in the character that makes PT have such high potential, and I believe that as the meta progresses PT will only continue to go up in the tier list, maybe even to top tier.
Alright, there's a lot to unwrap here. I'll start by saying I agree with most of what you said. And I also agree it's hard to make these lists because each character has strengths and weaknesses, and it's unrealistic to only stay one 'mon. I tried to make this list represent neutral game, so gimps and KOs weren't necessarily accounted for.

Now, as for Squirtle. I think he does better in some match ups than I gave him credit for, but I strongly think he struggles against characters with reach. This is why I put him so low against Ivy, Charizard, Ike, and DK. I did understate his combos a little, but as for the heavies, I accounted for random stray hits that can obliterate stocks.

As for Ivy and 'Zard against Pi(ka)chu. I think Squirtle is lack luster in this match up despite his speed. Squirtle is just Diet 'Chu. He has less speed, less reach, less projectiles, less kill power, less gimmicks. I do not think Squirtle wins these match ups. I think Ivy is the way to go. He has enough reach to keep the 'Chus out, and enough kill power and projectile pressure to scare them. As for Charizard, I understand he can be combo'd to death, but I think his reach and 'sword' tail are enough to keep him out of trouble for a little while at least. Definitely a disadvantage, but not unwinnable.

Lastly, please make a match up chart. I'd love to compare and learn what you have to say.
 

Xfire

Smash Rookie
Joined
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#35

So I'm having a problem against Mario/Dr. Mario when I play as Pokemon Trainer. Mario's aerials are rather safe on shield, especially when he follows up a SH Bair with either a Nair or Bair. He's also more agile on the air than I thought, which makes me miscalculate my aerial spacing with all of my characters (especially when I tried landing with an Ivy Fair after getting hit offstage).

As you can see from my video, I'm more comfortable using Charizard since he was my Smash4 main, though I really want to polish more of Pokemon Trainer's whole kit overall. Anything to keep in mind so I can face Mario without worry?
 

DavemanCozy

Smash Photographer
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#36

So I'm having a problem against Mario/Dr. Mario when I play as Pokemon Trainer. Mario's aerials are rather safe on shield, especially when he follows up a SH Bair with either a Nair or Bair. He's also more agile on the air than I thought, which makes me miscalculate my aerial spacing with all of my characters (especially when I tried landing with an Ivy Fair after getting hit offstage).

As you can see from my video, I'm more comfortable using Charizard since he was my Smash4 main, though I really want to polish more of Pokemon Trainer's whole kit overall. Anything to keep in mind so I can face Mario without worry?
I'm not a poke main, but I noticed;

In the second stock you should have switched to Ivysaur, considering Mario was at ~55% and you got him to about 98%, that's prime time for Ivysaur to set up a kill.

As Charizard I noticed that you didn't do U-smash much OoS and went for D-smash more, even after a ledge getup it was D-smash.... isn't U-smash better for Zard? Also unfortunate that you miss-timed the d-smash when he regrabbed ledge... online isn't always the best for those :p

Most obvious too is that you didn't go Ivysaur much, she gives the Marios a hard time. Unfortunately you miss-timed the d-air, which would've been prime time to end that stock. That approach with F-air in the second stock hurt, Mario player spaced it well. You should use d-tilt more with her as your main poke; that move is fast and a reliable anti-ground option. And sets stuff up.
 
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Adamonado

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
27
#37

So I'm having a problem against Mario/Dr. Mario when I play as Pokemon Trainer. Mario's aerials are rather safe on shield, especially when he follows up a SH Bair with either a Nair or Bair. He's also more agile on the air than I thought, which makes me miscalculate my aerial spacing with all of my characters (especially when I tried landing with an Ivy Fair after getting hit offstage).

As you can see from my video, I'm more comfortable using Charizard since he was my Smash4 main, though I really want to polish more of Pokemon Trainer's whole kit overall. Anything to keep in mind so I can face Mario without worry?
First of all: pink Zard lmao nice
Secondly: my main advice is to use more Ivy in this matchup. Mario infamously has bad range and struggles against swordies, and well, Ivysaur is basically a swordy. Space his shield with bair, and when you land one follow up like you normally would. Use razor leaf, but use it sparingly, because he will cape it back at you. Try to get him offstage and then edgeguard him with nair and dair. Just normal Ivysaur stuff, she does really well in this MU
Zard: if Mario is playing safe Zard can't do too much because of his absolutely trash neutral and lack of any safe moves on block, but if he's aggressive like this one was then just go for the classic bait-and-punish playstyle. Make use of his back throw combos and up smash/up b OOS. I guess you could try outranging him with your bigger hitboxes but I just feel like Ivysaur does the job better in this case (please buff Zard sakurai).
Squirtle: this matchup is all about landing the first hit. Both characters have an incredible combo game. If I get the first hit, I will do my big damage combo and then switch to Ivysaur to finish up the stock. If he gets the first hit, I immediately switch to Ivysaur and reset to neutral to play the patient game.

I know the joke is "haha bad PT mains are just carried by Ivysaur" but in this MU Ivysaur is the best go-to in almost every situation. Obviously it is good to switch here and there, but the majority of your neutral and advantage should be made up of Ivysaur.
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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#38
Having trouble against one of the top players in my region who mains :ultgnw:. I feel like this should be an easy enough match up but offstage is a nightmare, especially since I feel like that's where we shine.

First off, how do we punish offstage? His up-b has invincibility on frame 5(?) and it can easily stage spike or just kill outright. Next, he has a Bair that can combo into itself all the way to the blast zone, but really he only needs one to gimp. Then of course there's Fair spam and dive bombing with Dair, these aren't as annoying but something to watch out for.

Then I struggle onstage because he has so much kill power with Down Smash into F Smash, and a slightly invincible Up Smash. Of course there's always the threat of a random 9 Hammer. And D Tilt is so scary and fast. It's also hard to projectile camp, or keep him out with flamethrower due to bucket.

I don't think G&W is unbeatable, but definitely scary. I'm not sure what the best approach is? I'm thinking rush with Squirtle, then space with Ivy and Zard without projectiles and without going off stage, but that's where most kills come from. Plz help.

TL;DR how to beat G&W without going off stage?
 
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Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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#39
I don't wanna spam, but I realize I also struggle with :ultfalcon:. I think my problem is I don't know how he works in this game. I played with a solid Falcon for a couple of hours yesterday and I just kept getting bodied. I realized most of his neutral is a 50/50 between landing Nair 1/Dair or grab/Up B.

From what I gathered, Ivy is the best bet here (even though Falcon has some dumb combos that kill around 40%). Nair is your best friend; it stuffs out aerial approaches and grabs. Using Ivy's whips to keep out Falcon is also a plus, but don't get caught in end lag. And lastly, even though it seems easier, it is more worth while to use Nair off stage as opposed to going for Dair. Falcon's recovery is bad enough that just gimping with Nair is more consistent than trying to line up a spike.

Squirtle does alright against Falcon, you just need to know what to avoid, and punish when Falcon approaches with aerials, since they usually go right over Squirtle. It's also hard for Falcon to land killing combos on Squirtle because of his size and weight. Charizard actually got me multiple comebacks. The spacing with Bair is super important, and mixing up grab and up smash is a life saver, especially considering how much time Ultimate Falcon spends in the air.

All in all, I'd still like some advice, because I'm tired of getting killed at 40% from Up air->Up air-> Up air-> Knee
 
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Adamonado

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
27
#40
Having trouble against one of the top players in my region who mains :ultgnw:. I feel like this should be an easy enough match up but offstage is a nightmare, especially since I feel like that's where we shine.

First off, how do we punish offstage? His up-b has invincibility on frame 5(?) and it can easily stage spike or just kill outright. Next, he has a Bair that can combo into itself all the way to the blast zone, but really he only needs one to gimp. Then of course there's Fair spam and dive bombing with Dair, these aren't as annoying but something to watch out for.

Then I struggle onstage because he has so much kill power with Down Smash into F Smash, and a slightly invincible Up Smash. Of course there's always the threat of a random 9 Hammer. And D Tilt is so scary and fast. It's also hard to projectile camp, or keep him out with flamethrower due to bucket.

I don't think G&W is unbeatable, but definitely scary. I'm not sure what the best approach is? I'm thinking rush with Squirtle, then space with Ivy and Zard without projectiles and without going off stage, but that's where most kills come from. Plz help.

TL;DR how to beat G&W without going off stage?
You basically answered your own question. G&W has a hard time dealing with Squirtle's speed, and juggling him is not too hard, so that's Squirtle's job. Space with Ivy, projectile camping isn't too hard since razor leaf is so good and the bucket reflect isn't scary at all. With Ivy it's important to play safe. Don't play risky, that's where G&W will consistently punish with an up b and you'll take a lot of damage. Don't just rush in on bombs, just hit them and wait for the right moment. All of G&W aerials have a lot of lag, so if he lands with dair/bair/nair just make sure to shield all the hits and get the right punish. When G&W gets too aggressive with these landing options you can get easy grabs with Ivy which obviously can lead to lots of damage and early kill confirms with down throw up b and down throw nair up b etc. Ivy and Zard both can outrange G&W. If you go offstage, only go for deep ivy nairs or else you will be in danger of up b gimps. It might be better to just camp at the ledge and wait for sh dairs instead, which might be hard to land on G&W but lacks any risk and can be very rewarding. Other than that just go for the ledge trap. Don't be overly aggressive or he will land down smash and you will die at 60%. Rather, outrange him so that option is not viable (i.e. ivy bair, fair, razor leaf, zard bair, ftilt...). I don't feel like there's too much else to say on G&W. He's just a weird character, and most of your frustration can probably be attributed to mu inexperience.
I don't wanna spam, but I realize I also struggle with :ultfalcon:. I think my problem is I don't know how he works in this game. I played with a solid Falcon for a couple of hours yesterday and I just kept getting bodied. I realized most of his neutral is a 50/50 between landing Nair 1/Dair or grab/Up B.

From what I gathered, Ivy is the best bet here (even though Falcon has some dumb combos that kill around 40%). Nair is your best friend; it stuffs out aerial approaches and grabs. Using Ivy's whips to keep out Falcon is also a plus, but don't get caught in end lag. And lastly, even though it seems easier, it is more worth while to use Nair off stage as opposed to going for Dair. Falcon's recovery is bad enough that just gimping with Nair is more consistent than trying to line up a spike.

Squirtle does alright against Falcon, you just need to know what to avoid, and punish when Falcon approaches with aerials, since they usually go right over Squirtle. It's also hard for Falcon to land killing combos on Squirtle because of his size and weight. Charizard actually got me multiple comebacks. The spacing with Bair is super important, and mixing up grab and up smash is a life saver, especially considering how much time Ultimate Falcon spends in the air.

All in all, I'd still like some advice, because I'm tired of getting killed at 40% from Up air->Up air-> Up air-> Knee
Do you know what Falcon really, really hates? Short, quick, combo-heavy characters. He infamously gets bodied by them. And we have one of the shortest, quickest, and combo-heaviest of them all. When you get the grab with Squirtle, dair loops should rack on at least 50%. Ftilt combos into everything. Juggle him to death. Get him off stage and edgeguard with bair, nair, and even fair. Keep him in disadvantage. Neutral should consist primarily of ftilt and pivot ftilt, along with fairs, dash grab, and other options that open up combos. I like short hop dairs personally to start things up when falcon gets too aggressive (which is all the time). You can also mess up his flow and recovery with watergun. When switched to Ivy, keep Falcon at range with razor leaf. If you can get him offstage, nair is an unavoidable tool for a free edgeguard, and sh dair at the ledge is pretty easy against him too. Zard relies on a super hard bait and punish gameplan, and that's not hard to do against Falcon's ultra aggressive playstyle. Up smash oos, up b oos, easy grab combos, easy edgeguards... even zard can do well in the mu and that's not something I normally say, although zard is also huge and easily combo'd and that's what falcon really really likes. Basically you gotta play safe with Zard or else you're taking a ton of damage and/or a knee.

All in all, I'd say that your problems with the two are based on MU inexperience more than anything else. Both these characters are a bit underrepresented in the current meta so you're probably just not used to their gimmicks. I'd definitely say that Trainer wins both matchups. I hope this was helpful for you.
 
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