I am Disappointed on Nintendo's Characterization and Lore

[asia_catdog_blue]

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I honestly find Nintendo's Characterization and Lore severely lacking. Seriously, they can't make good characterization for crap! They either ignore potential characters or worlds(Sarasaland), or ruins them completely(Princess Toadstool/Peach wasn't that bad back then. She could have been made into a better character) either because of Pride, some "Honor Code", selfishness, or just laziness.

Really, I feel a lot of what Nintendo has could have been more! I know all of you out there feel the same way in some aspect!

I also feel this way for the world(or Universe) of Capcom as well.

 

[finalark]

either because of Pride, some "Honor Code", selfishness, or just laziness

I don't think it has anything to do with that.

I think it's because Nintendo makes games, not stories or story-oriented games. Just games. And you know what? That's fine. Not every game needs intricate characters or for every on-screen object to have a thirty page backstory.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I don't think it has anything to do with that.

I think it's because Nintendo makes games, not stories or story-oriented games. Just games. And you know what? That's fine. Not every game needs intricate characters or for every on-screen object to have a thirty page backstory.

Well, I just want something!

Kirby at least has a different plot every game. Well, most of Nintendo's series do.

So, why do Mario and Pokemon re-use the same plot with their characters derailed again?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because they don't.

Like they really don't if you look at them at a deep level.

The Mario spin offs have a variety of ideas and Pokemon deals with a different theme every game.

It's only the same on the superficial barring the NSMB games.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I kind of feel with Nintendo it's gameplay first with a simple story premise, with the story complimenting the gameplay rather than being the main focus.

I'm fine with that, but I don't really play games for the story. My most played games have zero story at all, other than pokemon I guess. But I play pokemon more for collecting, battling, and breeding rather than whatever plot the game has.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Three word: Metroid Other M.
That's what happen when you focus too much on the story in a franchise that tell his story by gameplay. (Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, etc...Metroid Fusion kinda focused more on the story but it was balanced, contrary to Other M.)
Really, Nintendo have a better time focusing first on the gameplay and then the story if they want.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think its more that whenever they try to go for some kind of deeper plot in their games, it falls short most of the time with pretty poor fan reactions. Games like Mario Sunshine, Skyward Sword and Other M where pretty poorly received despite attempting to focus a bit more on some sort of plot. Which is probably why their more wary and focus more on what their better at, the gameplay and simple plotlines just to get the ball rolling.

Although if you want to play Mario with a larger emphasis on a plot. There's always the Mario RPG's which have done fine for the most part.....

 

[Deleted member]

I think its more that whenever they try to go for some kind of deeper plot in their games, it falls short most of the time with pretty poor fan reactions. Games like Mario Sunshine, Skyward Sword and Other M where pretty poorly received despite attempting to focus a bit more on some sort of plot.

I feel this statement is inaccurate as Skyward Sword was heavily praised, and Mario Sunshine was praised. Most of the criticism towards Sunshine was the initial knee jerk reaction (similar to Wind Waker's artstyle backlash on reveal) was that Mario was using a water nozzle and it wasn't exactly Mario 64-2 or something traditional that Mario is usually known for.

I also think the story in itself wasn't mean't to be taken too seriously, and it's storytelling is honestly in the same vain as Mario 64, just less text and more vocals in the cutscenes (most likely due to the new hardware allowing bigger file sizes) and although it had more cutscenes compared to Mario 64, there weren't really a whole lot all together. Yeah, there are those that don't want Bowser to speak or hear Bowser Jr's voice, but I feel it's hardly anything serious that effected the gameplay on any dramatic manner.

@ the topic

Now as for what I believe to be the actual reason for why they don't focus on story too much, it's because if you make a serious story with a gameplay franchise, you eventually have to end it cause if not, you'll make the story last forever and diminishes any quality when you stretch a story farther than need be. It'll end up like Mega Man X where Zero is dying and reviving every other game because they were trying to tell a proper story but they couldn't keep that story intact because it not only sacrificed gameplay, people were fans of the character and well the character had a good design and they'd have to come up with something else. Imagine if that happened with Mario and Luigi? We'd have to literally cut Luigi out of the equation if he actually died in a game, then revive him later and it'd just diminish the story logistics and sensibility.

Another great example is the Sonic Adventure series. The first two games had a great story and the second one ended on a decent note, then after that with Sonic Heroes and Shadow The Hedgehog, they completely rewrote the characters and pretty much added things that made no sense and that is because they had to continue a story that was intended to end and they ended up saying "screw it" to the logic just so they can continue a story half ***ed just cause it's there.

Mario doesn't need a story unless it's in his RPG games, that's what they are there for so I agree with Curious Villager in that respect. Zelda has plenty of story and lore, so does Metroid. For Pokemon, they can't develop the story too much or else face the issues I've stated previously. Now there are some spinoff Pokemon gamess that give you a story there are the Mystery Dungeon games which have a lot of personality among the Pokemon in them, there is also games like Pokemon Ranger Shadows of Almia which have an excellent story in the vain you are wanting, and the third game has a story as well.

Most importantly, if you want a "Pokemon" Pokemon game with a story, I strongly suggest playing Pokemon Colosseum and Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness on Nintendo Gamecube as those have a story as well.

So yeah, it's for quality and to keep a franchise alive. There are games in these series out there if you look for em.

 

[Curious Villager]

I feel this statement is inaccurate as Skyward Sword was heavily praised, and Mario Sunshine was praised. Most of the criticism towards Sunshine was the initial knee jerk reaction (similar to Wind Waker's artstyle backlash on reveal) was that Mario was using a water nozzle and it wasn't exactly Mario 64-2 or something traditional that Mario is usually known for.

I also think the story in itself wasn't mean't to be taken too seriously, and it's storytelling is honestly in the same vain as Mario 64, just less text and more vocals in the cutscenes (most likely due to the new hardware allowing bigger file sizes) and although it had more cutscenes compared to Mario 64, there weren't really a whole lot all together. Yeah, a there are those that don't want Bowser to speak or hear Bowser Jr's voice, but I feel it's hardly anything serious that effected the gameplay on any dramatic manner.

Hmm, must have seen it in different places then, since I recall some complaints in regards to Skyward Sword's storyline invading the gameplay at certain moments as well as the long intro at the beginning before you get to the first dungeon.

Mario Sunshine may have had a lot of complaints in regards to its voice acting though, which is probably why they haven't really revisited that concept since from what I recall.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm, must have seen it in different places then, since I recall some complaints in regards to Skyward Sword's storyline invading the gameplay at certain moments as well as the long intro at the beginning before you get to the first dungeon.

Mario Sunshine may have had a lot of complaints in regards to its voice acting though, which is probably why they haven't really revisited that concept since from what I recall.

I feel those types of complaints they don't hold into account because Twilight Princess had that kind of long intro, and they still continued with it with Skyward Sword. You could make an argument that Link Between Worlds and Triforce Heroes cut the story and is a clear example of them basing it on fan input, but that would be an inaccurate statement as well since those are handheld games and it's the mainline Zelda games on consoles that generally have the fleshed out story. (I'd also make side points that Link Between Worlds is based on a SNES game and Triforce heroes is based on Four Swords which is intended to be a multiplayer game and not a mainline Zelda.)

The point I'm trying to make is there are a lot of complaints on the internet for various things, however I don't feel those complaints you have listed effected Nintendo's decision in any way or effected the gameplay of these games or how one might score them on a deep level. They seem more like petpeeves from various people.

For Mario Sunshine I could see that possibly being true on the voice, although at the same time they probably realized that Bowser sounds better via grunting like a dinosaur and using text boxes. I'm not sure how they sound in Japanese, but they may have gotten a better vocal cast than we did for Bowser and Bowser Jr.

 

[Curious Villager]

I feel those types of complaints they don't hold into account because Twilight Princess had that kind of long intro, and they still continued with it with Skyward Sword. You could make an argument that Link Between Worlds and Triforce Heroes cut the story and is a clear example of them basing it on fan input, but that would be an inaccurate statement as well since those are handheld games and it's the mainline Zelda games on consoles that generally have the fleshed out story. (I'd also make side points that Link Between Worlds is based on a SNES game and Triforce heroes is based on Four Swords which is intended to be a multiplayer game and not a mainline Zelda.)

The point I'm trying to make is there are a lot of complaints on the internet for various things, however I don't feel those complaints you have listed effected Nintendo's decision in any way or effected the gameplay of these games or how one might score them on a deep level. They seem more like petpeeves from various people.

For Mario Sunshine I could see that possibly being true on the voice, although at the same time they probably realized that Bowser sounds better via grunting like a dinosaur and using text boxes. I'm not sure how they sound in Japanese, but they may have gotten a better vocal cast than we did for Bowser and Bowser Jr.

I think they do listen to fan feedback as the long intro's and linear natures in modern Zelda games have been a common complaint since Twilight Princess like you stated, at least from what was implied in A Link between Worlds and Aunuma's statements in regards to Zelda U. I'm not sure why it took them until A Link Between Worlds to address this though.

But I recall they did state that Zelda U would also be taking some cues from the original Legend of Zelda for NES much like A Link between Worlds did for A Link to the Past and Triforce Heroes did for Four Swords, so perhaps the story in Zelda U won't be as major as it was in the last two home console Zelda's in order to open up the game a bit more for a more non-linear gameplay style.

Eitherway, there's isn't really much else to say other than to take a wait and see approach in regards to how Zelda U will turn out. Aunuma has stated multiple times that this game will be rethinking common Zelda conventions and addressing various feedback given from fans so all we can do is see how the game will turn out.....

Also, the Mario cast are English voiced in the Japanese version too.

 

[Deleted member]

I think they do listen to fan feedback as the long intro's and linear natures in modern Zelda games have been a common complaint since Twilight Princess like you stated, at least from what was implied in A Link between Worlds and Aunuma's statements in regards to Zelda U. I'm not sure why it took them until A Link Between Worlds to address this though.

But I recall they did state that Zelda U would also be taking some cues from the original Legend of Zelda for NES much like A Link between Worlds did for A Link to the Past and Triforce Heroes did for Four Swords, so perhaps the story in Zelda U won't be as major as it was in the last two home console Zelda's in order to open up the game a bit more for a more non-linear gameplay style.

Eitherway, there's isn't really much else to say other than to take a wait and see approach in regards to how Zelda U will turn out. Aunuma has stated multiple times that this game will be rethinking common Zelda conventions and addressing various feedback given from fans so all we can do is see how the game will turn out.....

Also, the Mario cast are English voiced in the Japanese version too.

I want to make a note that if they do do that, it doesn't necessarily mean it's because they worked too much on story, it could mean they are wanting to make something in vain of Zelda NES similar to how Mario 3D Land was based more on 2D Mario than it was typical 3D Mario gameplay like 64, Sunshine, Galaxy etc. You go after flagpoles instead of Stars, and it's linear instead of more open exploration. Nintendo has a tendency to come back to a style of a previous game simply because they can do something more with it and because they care about their older fans and want them to play their games still.

Nintendo may notice complaints, but I think if they generally reacted to every complaint (even ones that are more vocal on the internet) then their games would be far different than what we get. I use that as proof that they are very selective and don't make decisions that decisively based on fan input. They have many reasons for doing the things they do, and one has to keep in mind that some people on a forum or a website all in an agreement on a certain opinion about a video game is still a minority view at the end of the day compared to the total amount of people that bought and played the game who never discuss as openly on the internet, or the kids in the same household that ended up playing the game sharing with their family and possibly not having those same issues the people who criticized did.

 

[Curious Villager]

I want to make a note that if they do do that, it doesn't necessarily mean it's because they worked too much on story, it could mean they are wanting to make something in vain of Zelda NES similar to how Mario 3D Land was based more on 2D Mario than it was typical 3D Mario gameplay like 64, Sunshine, Galaxy etc. You go after flagpoles instead of Stars, and it's linear instead of more open exploration. Nintendo has a tendency to come back to a style of a previous game simply because they can do something more with it and because they care about their older fans and want them to play their games still.

Nintendo may notice complaints, but I think if they generally reacted to every complaint (even ones that are more vocal on the internet) then their games would be far different than what we get. I use that as proof that they are very selective and don't make decisions that decisively based on fan input. They have many reasons for doing the things they do, and one has to keep in mind that some people on a forum or a website all in an agreement on a certain opinion about a video game is still a minority view at the end of the day compared to the total amount of people that bought and played the game who never discuss as openly on the internet, or the kids in the same household that ended up playing the game sharing with their family and possibly not having those same issues the people who criticized did.

Oh I understand very well that they don't take every feedback and complaints into account. That's more or less impossible as everybody has different opinions and views in regards to what they like and don't like in a given series. Plus it can also potentially change the way a given series was originally depicted by the original creator and end up as something else entirely that wasn't part of how he initially envisioned said series, which in turn may also disappoint long time fans who have been following a given series from the very beginning.

I completely agree with that.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Three word: Metroid Other M.
That's what happen when you focus too much on the story in a franchise that tell his story by gameplay. (Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, etc...Metroid Fusion kinda focused more on the story but it was balanced, contrary to Other M.)
Really, Nintendo have a better time focusing first on the gameplay and then the story if they want.

Other M seems like an outlier.

We've seen plenty of other games from nintendo show their ability to have good story writing. One game's (allegedly) terrible writing should not be indicative of the quality of all games' stories, just like how phanotm hourglasses (allegedly) weaker gameplay foes not represent the quality of the zelda franchise.



That isnt to say we need grand epics rivaling novels in 2d platformers, but as someone who fell in love with xenobladd mostly from its writing, i dont think injecting some more narrartive elements into these games would be a bad thing.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Other M seems like an outlier.

We've seen plenty of other games from nintendo show their ability to have good story writing. One game's (allegedly) terrible writing should not be indicative of the quality of all games' stories, just like how phanotm hourglasses (allegedly) weaker gameplay foes not represent the quality of the zelda franchise.

Your right, but still, too much focusing on the story can be bad. You have to balance the two, or make one just really good. (A exemple of balanced story and gameplay will be Metroid Fusion for me.)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Some franchises focus a lot more on gameplay than an actual story. Yoshi's Woolly World's plot is quite straightforward, where you just have to rescue all the Yoshis who were transformed by Kamek.

The Legend of Zelda is much more story-oriented than most other franchises. And even the Pokemon franchise has its own story plots that can stray away from the usual battle the 8 gym leaders and take on the Elite Four. For an example, in Diamond and Pearl, you could not access Sunyshore City at all until you've stopped Team Galactic for good, and that involves going through a tedious quest of climbing up to Spear Pillar.

 

[LancerStaff]

For the most part Nintendo handles the dialogue well. No, it's usually not deep or complex, but it's almost always enjoyable.

Dunno, but I'd sooner remember king of guys who talk to posters then the political effects of having the princess of a kingdom missing more then half the time.

 

[N3ON]

Three word: Metroid Other M.
That's what happen when you focus too much on the story in a franchise that tell his story by gameplay. (Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, etc...Metroid Fusion kinda focused more on the story but it was balanced, contrary to Other M.)
Really, Nintendo have a better time focusing first on the gameplay and then the story if they want.

I agree gameplay should come first, but an example of characterization that was handled poorly is not an excuse to never attempt it again, it's a lesson to learn from moving forward.

If you want an example of Nintendo doing characterization right, look at Uprising.

 

[Metal Shop X]

I agree gameplay should come first, but an example of characterization that was handled poorly is not an excuse to never attempt it again, it's a lesson to learn from moving forward.

If you want an example of Nintendo doing characterization right, look at Uprising.

I never said that Nintendo can't make a game with a good story and with a good gameplay.
In fact, i love Uprising! I played alot and the story, character and the gameplay are fun!
It's just that Other M was handled pretty poorly in that sense. Samus was...Well, Other M Samus, and the others character are OK at best. (Anthony being for me the most fun character in that game.) And the gameplay have general mixed feeling (Some say it's OK, good or bad.)
Really, i would love a Metroid game with a really great story and great gameplay! Kinda like how Metroid Fusion and Zero Mission did but even better! Metroid Uprising when?

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Honestly, I'm just more annoyed with the treatment Mario gets these days. Sure, the gameplay might be good, but everything else feel weak to me.

I hate how they treat the characters, nowadays. Now only do they speak random gibberish, but they characterization have been nerfed. Badly.

Mario and Luigi were just ordinary guys from our world that somehow got into the Mushroom Kingdom(Original American Canon, which I liked better). Mario was a little more courageous and optimistic than his younger brother. Now, Mario is way too optimistic even in what should be an adventurous journey. He also lost a few brain cells. Luigi became either just as bland and childish as his brother, or a glorified weirdo who's nearly afraid of everything(especially in SSB). I liked they characters in adaptations more(Yes. Even the movie and DiC)

Princess Peach stopped being a woman of beauty that you could take seriously(well, it was implied back then), and became a dumb blonde who's only purpose is to get kidnapped(with some exceptions).

King Bowser was a monstrous looking danger to all that is good, especially during the Nintendo 64. Now, he just comes off as a big bully that no one takes seriously and can easily be made fun of and kicked around.

The voices of these characters hasn't helped, either.

Some articles I found that probably explains it better than me.

Spoiler: TV Tropes - Character Derailment

The Super Mario Bros.' recurring nemesis Bowser switches back and forth from a vicious warlord into a simply grumpy and ineffectual villain in the Mario spinoffs with no explanation. A few of the main games, such as Super Mario Sunshine, try to reconcile the radically different portrayals. Shigeru Miyamoto has admitted there is no continuity whatsoever between games, so he can be free to do whatever he wants in each game without being bound by canon. Bowser is whatever the story needs him to be, be it Affably Evil, Not Evil, Just Misunderstood, or some guy to go-kart with.

• Peach was originally a very wise and magnanimous Ms. Exposition, but by Super Mario Sunshine, she becomes aditzy Damsel in Distress. Later spinoffs and Super Mario 3D World re-rail her by meeting these personalities in the middle making her a strong-willed (but still a bit ditzy) Action Girl.

Spoiler: TV Tropes - Flanderization

• Super Mario Bros.
  • Peach is largely known nowadays for her over-the-top stereotypical female personality and ditziness, but she wasn't always like that. The series started off with her having the power to undo Bowser's evil spell, which is why Bowser kidnaps her (at least, according to the first game's instruction manual). Still, in Super Mario 64, she was portrayed as a dignified, intelligent-sounding monarch. Come Super Mario Sunshine, her ditziness took over full force, leading to the Peach we know today. Some games, however, like Super Paper Mario, avert this completely.
  • Bowser has gone under some notable de-Flanderization over the years. He started off as being someone who wanted to take over the Mushroom Kingdom, with no proper explanation given ad to why. Starting with the RPGs, however, he was shown to be a lot softer than he appears, shown to be depressed over the loss of his minions in one instance, and being horrified by the destruction of a world in another, as well as having genuine feelings for Peach. Overall, Bowser's character can be described as being a mostly selfish king who wants to rule the world, but at the same time cares deeply for his minions and his son and genuinely loves Peach.
  • Luigi started out as a recolor of Mario but started to grow in character. In Paper Mario he keeps asking to join Mario on his adventure, even if he’s scared of ghosts. However, when he got his own game in which he was shown as The So-Called Coward, he faced his fear of ghosts head on. Since then, though, being a coward has been his main character trait. Not that this is a bad thing.
    • The most notable example of Flanderization regarding him can be found in the Mario & Luigi series. In the first game, he had very bad luck, and wasn't as brave as Mario, but he was still capable enough in his own right. In later games (particularly Partners in Time), he's a complete wuss who can't seem to do anything without screwing up and getting hurt.
    • Luigi's cowardice could be a case of Canon Immigration, as even back in the western cartoons Luigi was shown as easily rattled and averse to conflict, whereas Mario never backed down from a challenge. One could consider this a cross-continuity case of Flanderization. In the cartoons, Luigi was generally more emotional than Mario in all aspects; cowardice, depression, anger, impulse, hamminess... The games decided to just latch onto cowardice and run with it from there.
  • This has also happened to Princess Daisy of all characters. After her much-needed Divergent Character Evolutionaway from Peach, Daisy became more of a tomboy with a spunky and energetic side, but was still generally soft-spoken and rather calm. As the games went on however, Daisy became more hyperactive, louder and more shrill with each new appearance. Needless to say, this hasn't worked out too well.
  • Another character who got flanderized is Toadsworth. In his debut game, Super Mario Sunshine, he was understandably worried about Peach, but remained somewhat level-headed about it. By Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time kicked in, he became overly paranoid, to the point of assuming his past self transformed Peach into an infantand kidnapped her the second he saw him with Baby Peach. However, in this case it turned out for the better, since he didn't have that much of a personality in Sunshine.

• Super Smash Bros..
  • Luigi is one of the most notable examples- In his home series, whilst cowardice is his main trait, he's still a Bad Asswho is more than capable of beating evil and getting serious when he needs to. In Brawl onwards, though, he's a complete wuss, with most of his moveset having him look tired, confused or afraid, and the story mode had him jumping terrified at the sight of Waddle Dees, almost completely harmless (Without weapons, that is) adorable puffballs.
  • Wario suffers heavily from this as well- Outside of Smash, Wario is a greedy, rotten Jerk Ass who mostly only cares about himself, but is still a complete Bad Ass who is still an Anti-Hero at worst in most appearances. In the Smash Bros. games, however, he's a 'living embodiment of gross' whose moveset consists of farting, biting, and doing other stupid things to opponents (With the fourth game notably removing his iconic Shoulder Bash, his only attack he had from Wario Land), and Brawl's story mode portrays him as a downright evil asshole who is fine with killing children and laughing his ass off about it afterwards. It would actually seem the developers are trying to hide the Wario Land appearances of him from players, removing a costume based on his white and blue Wario Land outfit and his Shoulder Bash, as well as lacking any Trophies of characters from the series.
    • Admittedly, Wario is based more on his Warioware series in Smash(hence his bike and standard outfit), where he is indeed portrayed as a big ball of gross, but it's still not to the extent that Smash does.
  • Lucas has devolved to a whiny ball of angst and cowardice in Brawl's story mode, which, while they are applicable aspects of his original personality, he's MUCH more complex a character than what's seen in Brawl.
  • As a rare fighting style example, Marth started in Melee as a fast swordsman with his attacks being slightly stronger at the tip of his sword. Come Smash 4, and the tipper has become his most important asset by far, as his quick attack speed and especially his long range were toned down.

https://toohardforamericans.wordpress.com/2014/12/08/marios-serious-content-fluctuation/

The worlds have been bland as well. There are no more interesting newcomers or landscapes. Just gimmicks or throwbacks. Nothing has really interested me since Peach's Castle during the Nintendo 64.

I'm just convinced that Nintendo stopped giving a crap about making Mario interesting.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think they're doing a better job of smoothing out the Mario character's personalities lately. For a while, yeah, Bowser was only ever serious and fairly dark or a funny sympathetic ineffectual villain. In Galaxy 2 they gave him traits of both, and this seems to of stuck in the M&L games and probably the main games too if scaring Captain Toad with a cutout of himself and Meowser being a thing.

Luigi was a gigantic wuss in PiT, though that didn't really stick. Luigi's cowardice and clumsiness don't really get a chance to come through in the main games, and him being a screw-up had already been established before M&LSS. In TTYD most of his adventure consisted of him bungling something up only for it to give him the next compass piece by dumb luck. Luigi seems pretty consistent to me...

Peach has always been quite plain, mostly because she spends most of her time kidnapped. In the RPGs she's strong-willed but then in the other spin-offs she's more ditzy. Out of all the Mario characters it feels like she gets the least amount of screen time, and as such it's hard to build up anything around her. She needs an RPG where she's the main character or main exposition fairy like Zelda was in Spirt Tracks.

Mario's, well, Mario. He's not afraid of anything and will probably shout yahoo 100 times over the course of an adventure. In the Paper Mario games he's a bit of a jerk, usually at your choice, but other then that he's well-rounded. Too smart to be an idiot hero, but also likely to resort to violence to get out of a jam. Usually not the chosen one and typically relies on his own abilities instead of the power of friendship or ancient artifacts, and is pretty lax when dealing with Bowser. You can't really call him generic because he's never fell into the trends of any era.

 

[Oracle Link]

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I honestly find Nintendo's Characterization and Lore severely lacking. Seriously, they can't make good characterization for crap! They either ignore potential characters or worlds(Sarasaland), or ruins them completely(Princess Toadstool/Peach wasn't that bad back then. She could have been made into a better character) either because of Pride, some "Honor Code", selfishness, or just laziness.

Really, I feel a lot of what Nintendo has could have been more! I know all of you out there feel the same way in some aspect!

I also feel this way for the world(or Universe) of Capcom as well.

How about Kirby (i know its not directly Nintendo) Kirby has Story/Character Arcs (example dededes Redemption arc) ,a good simple timeline (one Main game follows the other meaning that game 1 comes before game 2)
,A lot of lore (hidden in Triple Deluxe and newer if you press start and read Boss descriptions), good worldbuilding, (because of lore) Simple (kirby, Metaknight, dedede, Bandana waddle dee ) aswell as complex (Haltman, hyness, taranza and many others) Characters!

And best of all no hour long Cutscenes having 100 boring Textbubbles

 

[Planet Cool]

What you've got to understand about Mario is that it's basically an homage to classic American cartoons like Mickey Mouse and Popeye. Every one of those old cartoons has the same basic story (Mickey/Popeye beats Pete/Bluto and rescues Minnie/Olive), but each one approaches that story in a slightly different way. They have different settings, different gags and so on. And that's Mario. If what you want is lore, you're not gonna find it there, but it's disingenuous to say that the games are all the same. The series is always putting new twists on familiar ideas. Look at Mario 64, Sunshine, Galaxy, 3D World and Odyssey and tell me you don't see a wealth of experimentation.

 

[Eremurus]

LoZ has decent lore. Metroid has decent lore. Mario?...has bad, nonsensical lore. And that's okay, every Nintendo enthusiast accepts it at some point.

 

[Planet Cool]

Mario doesn't have bad lore, it has no lore. It has some recurring thematic elements, but they aren't meant to fit together like Zelda and Metroid, or even something like Pikmin and Donkey Kong. It's not that someone tried to put serious lore there and failed.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Zelda and Metroid have great characters and lore behind it. Star Fox needs to be improved on it's lore better, but the characters though are great though. Pokemon has decent lore and good characters. Fire Emblem is okay in both I guess. The other franchises like Mario, Kirby, Animal Crossing, ect don't really have lore and have a bunch of great characters.

 

[Pokechu]

Oooo it's fun to give it a go on older threads but unfortunately it is considered necroposting (like, a necromancer. Bringing a very old and aged thread back to life. Scary!) Necroposting is generally not allowed on the forums so I'm going to give this thread the lock. Although you guys are free to make a new thread to discuss this topic if you would like! Or post in the NZone Social thread about it (general forum thread relating to all things Nintendo).

I do agree Zelda and Metroid have some nice lore though! But the Zelda timeline has gotten a bit out of hand I think LOL