Hydro Pump Gimping Thread

[Katuro117]

The quintessential thread for figuring out which characters are good for gimping with Hydro Pump.

Spoiler: Update notes 1.1

• Rearranged and added new categories
• Follow up data now included
• Can now be rearranged by game roster order and alphabetical order

Notes: Since gimping seems to turn up a lot of no answers (and I haven't even done half the roster yet), I am adding an alternative category to consider the possibility of a follow up since that's the other best thing it can do is set people high above you when they are in special fall. Otherwise we'd be getting a lot of straight up 10 answers. Sorry if that confuses or irks people a little. It still is basically 'how easy is it to use Hydro Pump as an option'. I am still testing to see if it is possible to gimp alone with Hydro Pump first.

Spoiler: Update notes 1.2

• Updated existing difficulty values according to posted feedback
• Updated existing Notes according to posted feedback

This move is being tested with the following:

• Using training mode's damage set up (so Greninja rage plays a tiny part)
• A custom stage using platforms measured in Greninja full hops
• The opponent has to max out their jump height ending in a special fall that attempts to snap to the ledge
• Difficulty measured below 10 being impossible 1 being laughably easy

Difficulty: The challenge required to try and hit the opponent in order to do the following. 10 = impossible. 1 = Little Mac
Gimpable: Means that with Hydro Pump alone, they are pushed completely off the stage and can't recover.
Follow up: A situation that allows Greninja to follow up with something else.
Percent: The percent listed is generally trying to say when using the move is reasonably viable at the lowest possible %.

Any details for feedback for possible influences or how the thread format could work in this are greatly appreciated.

# |a| Characters | Difficulty: | Gimpable? | Gimpable% | Follow up? | Follow up% | Notes:
1|27| | 8 | Yes | 50%~ | ?? | ?? |

Spoiler

Mario can quick snap to the ledge thus the difficulty. He also has just enough horizontal momentum to make at low% force Greninja to do follow up pumps. Mario only get's pushed into the air only slightly as a result of getting hit, but every hit with hydro pump is a slight deficit to Mario. Practice is recommended.

2|26| | 7 | Yes | 0% | ?? | ?? |

Spoiler

If Luigi recovers with Side B it stops and pushes him up but does not effectively stop him. But, if Luigi is recovering low and forced to use Up B you have the opportunity if they don't insta-snap to the ledge.

3|38| | 8 | No | -- | Yes | 0% |

Spoiler

Doesn't work on it's own, since Peach goes up into the air dramatically on the first hit and has controlled descent. This is viable to force Peach into being above you.

4|2| | 4 | No | -- | Yes | 100%~ |

Spoiler

Bowser's horizontal momentum is good enough that this move won't work on it's own, but one can keep Bowser up in the air for a while, even indefinitely at the right %, which makes for a very free punish.
5|54| | 8 | No | -- | Yes* | 75%~|

Spoiler

Yoshi pretty much gets back for free. Is only slightly effected and does not shoot up into the air. *Yoshi can follow up with aerial game, so it's not free.

6|43| | 5 | No | -- | Yes | 0% |

Spoiler

Rosalina keeps her top tier status by having good horizontal momentum, but can be followed up with a free hit since it shoots her up in the air.

7|3| | 6 | No | -- | Yes* | 50%~ |

Spoiler

Retains horizontal momentum and cannot push off the stage. However at the right % follow ups can happen *Bowser Jr. however can attack with the hammer so it's not free.

8|52|| 7 | No | -- | Yes | 100%~ |

Spoiler

Wario retains horizontal momentum that Greninja can possibly hold Wario in the air indefinitely but be unable to push off the stage.

9|10| | 7 | Yes* | 0% | No | -- |

Spoiler

When Kong decides to expand his dong, he is not effected by Hydro Pump even at 999%. This also results in a lack of any upward momentum shooting. *However when he goes into special fall you can push him really easily at any%.

10|9| | | |
11|32| | | |
12|22| | 1 | Yes | 0% | ?? | ?? |

Spoiler

It's considered more viable than getting close and personal with the Mac due to Greninja's range with the attack. Up B doesn't insta-snap, so Little Mac can get hit easy by his hand sticking up just over the ledge, and Side B's momentum is effectively halted. [/spoilers]
13|21| | 6 | Yes | ?? | Yes | ?? |

Spoiler

It's easy to hit Link due to slow vertical movement. But Link's special fall retains horozontal momentum. It's easier to follow up with another attack since it does send Link into an easy follow up.

14|54| | | |
15|47| | | |
16|15| | | |
17|50| | | |
18|46| | 5 | Yes | 0% | Yes | ?? |

Spoiler

Screw Attack juts up pretty fast but if you space it correctly, Samus' horizontal movement will be easy to exploit. Is otherwise pretty safe for Samus if she snaps to the ledge.

19|55| | | |
20|40| | | |
21|37| | | |
22|28| | | |
23|17| | | |
24|42| | | |
25|12|| | |
26|20|| | |
27|19| | | |
28|30| | | |
29|14|| | |
30|13| | | |
31|39|| | |
32|5| | | |
33|23| | | |
34|18| | | | | |
35|16| | | |
36|41| | | |
37|33| | | |
38|4| | | |
39|51| | | |
40|34| | | |
41|53| | | |
42|48| | | |
43|11| | | |
44|8| | | |
45|25| | | |
46|36| | 10 | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | WTH this character
47|29| | | |
48|49| | | |
49|31| | | |
50|24| | | |
51|44| | | |
52|45| | | |
53|6| | | |
54|7| | | |
55|1| | | |

 

[Y2Kay]

How I gauge the others

8/10
5/10
10/10
2/10
5/10
2/10
5/10
9/10
9/10
7/10
7/10
6 /10
7/10
4/10
4/10
2/10
9/10
4/10
8/10
5/10
1/10
5/10
8/10
4/10
6/10
7/10
6/10
10/10
8/10
9/10
10/10
3/10
7/10
10/10
9/10
9/10
9/10
9/10
7/10
3/10
7/10
3/10
6/10
10/10
4/10
10/10
7/10
9/10
7/10
7/10
7/10
9/10
9/10

 

[Guimartgon]

I feel like Mario could be a 8/10, maybe a 7/10. I've gotten Marios before. In fact I played a Mario in WF of a small weekly last week and gimped him twice. You can aim your pump's first shot if you line up to him correctly and know the angle of his up B, popping him up. Then redirect the second shot to him to push him away and there's the stock! Although it was in smashville and T&C which don't have big walls for Mario to surf at, which made it easier.
My 2 cents:

Spoiler

9/10 cause even if you get her she won't be on free fall.
5/10
N/A
3/10
5/10
2/10
6/10 bc of the invincibility on the wings and head of up B.
9/10
8/10 cause multijumps
7/10
9/10 Am I the only one who can't seem to push him with hydropump?
5/10
5/10 I feel like we have better options than pump vs him at low %s/
4/10
4/10
2/10
9/10
1/10.
7/10
5/10 (3/10 if they have to use up B)
1/10
3/10(5/10 if we have to do it multiple times bc of bombs)
8/10
8/10 (3/10 if they don't use their zair to snap)
7/10.
7/10
8/10 but requires practice.
7/10
N/A
8/10
9/10
N/A
3/10
6/10(similar to DHD, at lower %s I'd rather just hit him if I know I won't push him far enough) harder cause small AF.
WTH is This Character/10
9/10
N/A
10/10
8/10
8/10
3/10
5/10
3/10
6/10
N/A
10/10
3/10
9/10
4/10 harder to hit than link imo
*/10

Spoiler

From up close, or if villager is recovering vertically it's hard. From afar you can actually pop the balloons with ease(Hydropump pops balloons without hitting villager so they can't up B again and they just fall. it's still hard cause I think balloons have 3HP so we need to hit both balloons twice. if you can align your self so that you can horizontally aim at villager and then diagonally you can get them

8/10
8/10 cause she has many forms of air stalling
???????/10 pls help wat do. I've just been spacing myself and Fsmashing their jump. They armor through but it's free %.
9/10
10/10

 

[FullMoon]

Reminder that DK can't be pushed by Hydro Pump during his Up Special, the only way you might gimp him is by hitting with it before he uses it.

That alone should place him at around 9/10 or just plain 10/10

 

[Katuro117]

Spoiler

How I gauge the others

8/10
5/10
10/10
2/10
5/10
2/10
5/10
9/10
9/10
7/10
7/10
6 /10
7/10
4/10
4/10
2/10
9/10
4/10
8/10
5/10
1/10
5/10
8/10
4/10
6/10
7/10
6/10
10/10
8/10
9/10
10/10
3/10
7/10
10/10
9/10
9/10
9/10
9/10
7/10
3/10
7/10
3/10
6/10
10/10
4/10
10/10
7/10
9/10
7/10
7/10
7/10
9/10
9/10

If you have any extra details you want to include, then by all means!

I feel like Mario could be a 8/10, maybe a 7/10. I've gotten Marios before. In fact I played a Mario in WF of a small weekly last week and gimped him twice. You can aim your pump's first shot if you line up to him correctly and know the angle of his up B, popping him up. Then redirect the second shot to him to push him away and there's the stock! Although it was in smashville and T&C which don't have big walls for Mario to surf at, which made it easier.
My 2 cents:

Spoiler

9/10 cause even if you get her she won't be on free fall.
5/10
N/A
3/10
5/10
2/10
6/10 bc of the invincibility on the wings and head of up B.
9/10
8/10 cause multijumps
7/10
9/10 Am I the only one who can't seem to push him with hydropump?
5/10
5/10 I feel like we have better options than pump vs him at low %s/
4/10
4/10
2/10
9/10
1/10.
7/10
5/10 (3/10 if they have to use up B)
1/10
3/10(5/10 if we have to do it multiple times bc of bombs)
8/10
8/10 (3/10 if they don't use their zair to snap)
7/10.
7/10
8/10 but requires practice.
7/10
N/A
8/10
9/10
N/A
3/10
6/10(similar to DHD, at lower %s I'd rather just hit him if I know I won't push him far enough) harder cause small AF.
WTH is This Character/10
9/10
N/A
10/10
8/10
8/10
3/10
5/10
3/10
6/10
N/A
10/10
3/10
9/10
4/10 harder to hit than link imo
*/10

Spoiler

From up close, or if villager is recovering vertically it's hard. From afar you can actually pop the balloons with ease(Hydropump pops balloons without hitting villager so they can't up B again and they just fall. it's still hard cause I think balloons have 3HP so we need to hit both balloons twice. if you can align your self so that you can horizontally aim at villager and then diagonally you can get them

8/10
8/10 cause she has many forms of air stalling
???????/10 pls help wat do. I've just been spacing myself and Fsmashing their jump. They armor through but it's free %.
9/10
10/10

Probably spent a little too much time figuring out Mario, but I did figure out a gimpable minimum %, but if it's this easy with the right practice, geeze.

Reminder that DK can't be pushed by Hydro Pump during his Up Special, the only way you might gimp him is by hitting with it before he uses it.

That alone should place him at around 9/10 or just plain 10/10

I was wondering why this wasn't doing anything. Thanks for the info!


This is all really useful. Sorry for the change in format, but I figured was oversimplified and left out a lot of details, so any extra details you guys can mention about exploits or quirks that occur related to Greninja's Pump, can go a ways. Once I get around to new characters in the roster (because some I just have no idea) and hand out a number to them, we'll let public opinion influence this (since special notes for each match up based on user experience is the best thing).

 

[Katuro117]

Well. RIP thread. Lab partners got bored, need replacement partners in order to continue.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

Well. RIP thread. Lab partners got bored, need replacement partners in order to continue.

This is a tough thing to lab out as there isn't necessarily empirical data to be achieved from the tests as there would be with other experiments. The main reason being myself or you reacting to hydro pump (hp) is far different than say a top player reacting. Take Mario for example, the difficulty of gimping my Mario, is far easier, than gimping Anti, or Ally's Mario. So how in the end could you come up with a difficulty rating?

I could see 12x12 charts being applicable in Smash 64 when the roster was small and easily defined. But with 58 characters now I just think your overall approach is maybe too overwhelming to achieve with desired results not clearly in sight. If you focus on specific matchups, that in my opinion, is the time to judge on whether or not you should go for a hp over a different edge guarding tactic.

 

[Megamang]

If someone knows the greninja MU, they will recover by going deep and recovering right along the ledge.

So what do we have to counter this?

Ive started a small list, but would really appreciate some help or ideas.

-fall down bair
Easy, simple, moderately effective. The multihit nature of the move really helps making teching difficult.

-fall down SS
Harder to hit, especially with how good recoveries are in this game. Higher reward, especially with the backstab hitbox.

- fall down fair
Kinda hard to hit, but high reward. Disjoints through attempts to counter

- fall down, hydro pump along the wall
A personal favorite if they are consistently going right along the wall, which can be conditioned reliably if you are accurate with offstage HPs. Obviously the goal, if not an outright gimp, is to send them very high in freefall and get a free charged smash.

- dsmash 2 frame
Powerful against certain recoveries, such as DK, mac, or anyone regrabbing.

-HP away on ledge options
I quite like this. Free damage, sends them back for every option except ledge jump, leaving you with...

- HP diagonal up
This is specifically to challenge ledge jump without endangering yourself at all. Especially powerful on characters with slow airspeed who then fall victim to greninja's awesome aerials. Someone like shiek, zss, pika, diddy, etc who have burst movement options get sent really high. This can be scary, especially if they lose their jump in the process.


This list got a little past gimping, but it all flows together if you pull it off smoothly. If anyone has some more options, i'd appreciate it.

I already know L HP and variants, i felt the basics should be skipped. Im also working on when to go away (slide back), away down (less slide back), and back and forth (landing closer to punish, but less safe to stuff like airdodge.

 

[SJMistery]

I would add in the spoiler notes of Ganon, and Little Mac: But is that even necessary?