Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[Dan_X]

I'm sorry that I and most every other BADer on this board thinks that WDing is giving brawl+ a bad reputation and thus wouldn't want it to be publicized until it's been made official. I'm sorry that I don't want to turn people away from brawl+.

Apology accepted.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Brawl airdodge limits your options to

1) Fast fall your airdodge from ridiculous heights and try for a free hit/ spotdodge grab.

or

2) Use an aerial to try and out space.

Given the options number one will always be the best and safest choice for smart players. We know this because BAD has been tested...in regular Brawl. Now with a directional airdodge you are forced to try something else. With good timing you can dodge the aerial then fast fall down, and anyone who thinks this really makes it too easy for the attacker hasn't used it enough honestly. I've been playing with it and it takes more skill to try and keep momentum on a player who uses MAD, as opposed to BAD where you just don't want them to get a free Snake Utilt on you.

 

[Eaode]

Please define these limitations, thank God you've tested the code for us!

the whole point of BAD is to dodge while keeping your current momentum. there's absolutely no point to this and so many BAD options are limited if you are FORCED to use a MAD first, which jerks you in a direction, and stops your momentum. every BAD will be a falling Air Dodge, and Every MAD will be a short jerk in a direction. it's so limited in options. Also, what if you want to waveland but already used your MAD?

these limitations are only on top of what MAD would do to the airgame and what WD would do to the ground game. If any HAD acually comes out, the only way to make it work would be to detect if there is a directional input, and if so use MAD. Again this is completely hypothesized where I'm ignoring the other effects of HAD and just focusing on this.

 

[Shell]

I think that this thread should consider a new approach. Don't debate adopting the code yet, just talk about what would be the most effective hybrid, regardless of whether you support using it. Then, wait to argue ideologies until after the code is play tested.

For me, a good HAD would be a standard directional MAD with BAD if no direction is pressed. It's pretty powerful, with a lot of options, so it could use some disadvantages, tweaking.

 

[Team Giza]

I think that Hybrid air dodge could be worked out to work decently. However the line cost of such a code is still the main issue to me. I cannot imagine the code turning out good without being nearly as long or longer than the old MAD code. Those lines could easily be used or character balance that I feel would help the game a lot more than HAD could overall.

Depending on the length of the code I might consider it. I'm sure the code might be fun to play around with for a little while. All in all I don't think its going to end up being good for the project but I'm willing to see if I will be proven wrong.

 

[Blank Mauser]

the whole point of BAD is to dodge while keeping your current momentum. there's absolutely no point to this and so many BAD options are limited if you are FORCED to use a MAD first, which jerks you in a direction, and stops your momentum. every BAD will be a falling Air Dodge, and Every MAD will be a short jerk in a direction. it's so limited in options. Also, what if you want to waveland but already used your MAD?

these limitations are only on top of what MAD would do to the airgame and what WD would do to the ground game. If any HAD acually comes out, the only way to make it work would be to detect if there is a directional input, and if so use MAD. Again this is completely hypothesized where I'm ignoring the other effects of HAD and just focusing on this.

Its not limiting when you consider that maybe having the options BAD gives you really limits you because one option is always the best. MAD limits you to make the game more varied, the same way we limited gravity and recovery options, which also makes lagless edges not broken. See how one thing leads to another? Why close off a potential way to expand the game?

 

[Eaode]

wait so we should give less options because one option is usually better?

 

[leafgreen386]

Apology accepted.

So you're trolling your own thread, now? Awesome.

Now if that wasn't intentional and you couldn't tell that was sarcasm then you need to get on the internet more.

Anyway.... as I'm sure a lot of you have heard, storm and I have been working on a forum for the brawl+ project. I think this is a good time for us to start populating it. It's been fully set up now, and this seems like just the kind of controversial discussion we should be having on there.

Here's the link. Register and post on the announcements thread.
http://z13.invisionfree.com/BrawlPLUS_Brigade/index.php?act=idx

 

[Blank Mauser]

wait so we should give less options because one option is usually better?

Directional airdodge isn't taking away options, its just making them different. Also you must not understand the logic I'm trying to use here.

Brawl airdodge is overpowered, therefore it limits the game as a whole.

 

[Team Giza]

wait so we should give less options because one option is usually better?

Getting rid of overpowered options can actually good thing for making a game more deep and diverse. I do not think it applies to this situation since I don't find baiting and punishing airdodging very hard in brawl+ and thus I don't see BAD as an overpowered option.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I find BAD to be overpowered in regular Brawl enough already. With added fastfalling they can do it from even higher heights with low risk. Maybe against more aggressive players or people who spam airdodge right away its not overpowered, but watching good players in Brawl you can tell that its abused pretty frequently.

Its even used in attack patterns. Use an aerial, airdodge as soon as its done. Repeat and you have a safe way of poking, at least until your opponent figures it out and tries to do an aerial before you get a chance to airdodge safely. In Brawl+ however, faster fast fall decreases the time needed to airdodge safely to the ground. It may not be overpowered to you, but theoretically it seems to be the safest option whenever you're above your opponent right? Safest being key word here.

I think Melee airdodge would change things up a little. Juking your opponents with it, and watching them grab thin air, or see that they're waiting and go for a ledge and gain invincibility frames. Basically it puts more emphasis on DI rather than free counterhits.

 

[Revven]

Directional airdodge isn't taking away options, its just making them different. Also you must not understand the logic I'm trying to use here.

Brawl airdodge is overpowered, therefore it limits the game as a whole.

Here's the key thing you're missing though: The whole AD system can NOW be abused when you include MAD first.

MAD buffs every character's recovery, if I jump, MAD towards the stage (up and to whatever direction needed) I'm closer to the stage now and can then Up B to the stage or forward B! Holy crap, you've buffed recovery EVEN more! But, wait, that's not all! I can MAD through your move, completely avoiding the attack AND avoiding another one right after that would normally punish my BAD! Too good.

And guess what? Even better. When I get hit again, my MAD is restored so, when I'm knocked off stage again I can just MAD towards the stage when the time is right and use my Up B or forward B to get back to the stage. Isn't that a little... umm... ridiculous? You're adding to the defenses more than you are the offense, it's such a silly idea on paper.

I'm GONNA wait until the code comes out but, if it does what ^ that says, then it's a ******** idea and needs more work. I was thinking HAD would be like this: when you input a direction, it's MAD, meaning you can't do **** aftewards and when there's no directional input, it's BAD. THAT would be better but, guess what? That adds more lines to make the game KNOW the differences + whatever nerfs you want to do to the Brawl WD (adding frame lag and etc. to stop stacking).

That's why I was saying before even this thread started that making HAD is not worth it. It's worth it for fun, YEAH, but not for the final standard IMO. I don't believe it'll add a whole lot and guess what? This whole code is just for a wavedash, a SIMPLE slide that adds tons of ground options that you could easily achieve with Dash Dancing + dash canceling.

Did this make any sense to you all? Or am I just blabbering nonsense that none of you want to hear because you're getting wet over HAD?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I never said I support HAD, I'd rather have MAD to be honest. No matter how broken people tell me it is.

 

[leafgreen386]

Gonna post this here, too... trying to get as many people's attention with this as possible.

I'm sure some of you have heard about the forum storm and I were making for brawl+. Well, it's fully set up now, and ready to be populated. It seems to be just the kind of place for us to take the HAD vs BAD discussion, as well, so please be sure to post on the announcements thread after you register.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/BrawlPLUS_Brigade/index.php?act=idx

edit: Ok guys, I just saw this when I refreshed the page on BB.

23 user(s) active in the past 15 minutes: 15 guests, 8 members, 0 anonymous members

REGISTER PEOPLE! THEN POST ON THE ANNOUNCEMENTS THREAD! Thank you for your time.

 

[kupo15]

What are you referring to? It's not what I am referring to where you jump on somebody's head that is block and do a quick move/moves on them from the stun is it?

Everyone on the anti HAD side has been telling you the harm HAD would do. Do you listen to them?

If people are really turned off by Brawl+ because of this I wouldn't think they've ever liked anything about a Smash game at all. I'll try and get good videos up I guess, because MAD really is more than just slippery Brawl.

Um what? So just because we don't like WDing in brawl+ that automatically puts us in the category of not liking smash?

You know, it's funny. You're really making it easy for everyone to identify you as a troll. You and anyone else who continues to spam this paragraph *cough* Storm for one.

Leaf and storm a troll? Are you serious?

It's a FAQ because it EXPLAINS WHAT HAD is---- and explains many other aspects of it. It is FACTUAL. So NO I will NOT CHANGE THE NAME. "Damaging to Brawl+" give me a break. I am NOT responsible for who posts in this thread, just as I'm not responsible for educating them on matters. If anything, I've at least taken a step in educating them based on the fact that I try to explain everything in the OP. It's not biased.. I just tell it how it is. I state that we don't know the good or bad affects of this code because it's not out yet.

This is NOT an FAQ. An FAQ gives the image that something is accepted and this is not accepted right now especially when the code isn't even out. You should remove FAQ because its a debate.

What's with the amazing level of negative stigmatization wavedashing has received here guys? Why? You're SO unbelievably close minded. You're not even willing to keep the peace, wait for the code to come out, test it, then input. The majority of you are being very uncivil about this, and it's sickening.

Maybe you should wait until the code is out before opening up a debate. Like seriously, does that even make sense to debate over something that is not even here to test?

Directional airdodge isn't taking away options, its just making them different. Also you must not understand the logic I'm trying to use here.

Brawl airdodge is overpowered, therefore it limits the game as a whole.

Brawl AD overpowered? What? How? You know where they are going to go. HAD doesn't change the fact that ADing is still infinite? What don't you understand about HAD allowing you to AD through attacks, stopping near them at the end of the AD then giving you the advantage? You should read Falco's post because it was spot on. Directional air dodging is really powerful and being able to do stuff afterwards makes it even more powerful. I don't understand how you can possibly think BAD is more OP than HAD in the slightlest

I never said I support HAD, I'd rather have MAD to be honest. No matter how broken people tell me it is.

Then why are you even in this thread?

 

[Dan_X]

Leaf and storm a troll? Are you serious?

Did you not see them spamming the same paragraph numerous times?

This is NOT an FAQ. An FAQ gives the image that something is accepted and this is not accepted right now especially when the code isn't even out. You should remove FAQ because its a debate.

There's a Brawl+ FAQ, yet not everyone accepts Brawl+. Is there a difference? I think not.

Maybe you should wait until the code is out before opening up a debate. Like seriously, does that even make sense to debate over something that is not even here to test?

I only renamed this thread to "debate" when people demanded I did. I made this thread to ask a simple question, "what do you guys think of HAD in Brawl+?" I asked this because Leafgreen told me to ask on the GScentral forums. I assumed many more people were in favor of HAD, and was SURE I'd get positive responses in favor of a HAD system. Instead I was met with tons of negativity. I figure that if a hacker were to make this code I'd have to show them that people want it, and you guys were going against me in the GS forums. However, to my surprise Phantom Wings responded to me, despite you guys shooting me down, and he picked up the HAD code anyway-- again despite being shot in front of everyone. To that end, this thread is utterly pointless. It's goal was to show a hacker that people do want a hybrid code. It's being made now--- even if the community is split on the matter. I can't get rid of the monster this thread has created, because people need to debate it at some point.. I'm just stuck in the middle.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

There's a Brawl+ FAQ, yet not everyone accepts Brawl+. Is there a difference? I think not.

wow, is this serious? i mean, really? are you really saying this? wow.

wow.

 

[kupo15]

I only renamed this thread to "debate" when people demanded I did. I made this thread to ask a simple question, "what do you guys think of HAD in Brawl+?" I asked this because Leafgreen told me to ask on the GScentral forums. I assumed many more people were in favor of HAD, and was SURE I'd get positive responses in favor of a HAD system. Instead I was met with tons of negativity. I figure that if a hacker were to make this code I'd have to show them that people want it, and you guys were going against me in the GS forums. However, to my surprise Phantom Wings responded to me, despite you guys shooting me down, and he picked up the HAD code anyway-- again despite being shot in front of everyone. To that end, this thread is utterly pointless. It's goal was to show a hacker that people do want a hybrid code. It's being made now--- even if the community is split on the matter. I can't get rid of the monster this thread has created, because people need to debate it at some point.. I'm just stuck in the middle.

Well you should have closed this thread the moment is was going to be made and at the start of when people started debating this right? Where is the sense in debating something that no one can prove? What makes it worse is that your debating on a side that has no proof against a side that has a good idea of what HAD will bring based off of MAD.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Everyone on the anti HAD side has been telling you the harm HAD would do. Do you listen to them?

Um what? So just because we don't like WDing in brawl+ that automatically puts us in the category of not liking smash?
Leaf and storm a troll? Are you serious?

This is NOT an FAQ. An FAQ gives the image that something is accepted and this is not accepted right now especially when the code isn't even out. You should remove FAQ because its a debate.

Maybe you should wait until the code is out before opening up a debate. Like seriously, does that even make sense to debate over something that is not even here to test?

Brawl AD overpowered? What? How? You know where they are going to go. HAD doesn't change the fact that ADing is still infinite? What don't you understand about HAD allowing you to AD through attacks, stopping near them at the end of the AD then giving you the advantage? You should read Falco's post because it was spot on. Directional air dodging is really powerful and being able to do stuff afterwards makes it even more powerful. I don't understand how you can possibly think BAD is more OP than HAD in the slightlest
Then why are you even in this thread?

Did you even read my other posts? And I'm posting in here because it makes sense with all the arguing over which airdodge is best. Also i'm saying if someone loses interest in Brawl+ simply because it has wavedashing than I don't think we really need to cater to them.

 

[Kix]

With a HAD there would seem to be a trade off although it would generally make recovery better. First it is laggy somewhat in a recovery situation meaning I think it could be countered, second this is with no auto sweet spot. I'm not sure how big of a difference it would make when we haven't even used it.

Kupo, is it overpowered for air defense now that you can dodge a direction then dodge a second time? Can't I argue the same thing about BAD except you can't direct BAD but MAD and HAD make you stuck for a moment? Aren't you supposed to be at a disadvantage when you get hit away? What people are arguing is not from test play and might not even be true.

I don't even know how valid the argument is that it takes away character specific approaches. I've been able to react and counter WD and I'm not sure that run would be useless, especially if it is faster. Then besides what BEES has proposed which might potentially give back one to all of the things that MAD has to offer, those things are just gone and they never have a chance to see how they work out competitively.

I still think MAD might have still been the best idea simply because the HAD could give that much more recovery if you can do multiple MAD but I still can't say how bad it would be without testing it. I think that a one MAD and being able to move afterward would be superior to that for that very reason.

 

[Dan_X]

I'm not a mod, I can't "close the thread." If I did close it, myself, or someone would just have to make the same thread once the code comes out. It's really not a big deal guys, just disregard the thread until the code comes out. No ones forcing you here to post your side, even if one side fills the pages here with there stuff it doesn't mean they've won, it just means the other side has chosen not to respond until proof can be issued. With that said, you're not obligated to "debate," so go off on your merry way blissfully so. Simply ignore this thread until you'd like to debate the issue. It's really not a big deal.

EDIT:
Couldn't I just rename the thread and include "closed?" Perhaps that's what you meant I do. I'll rename it once the code has come on, until that point, there's no need to debate because there's nothing to prove at the moment.

 

[Dan_X]

Bump!!! Code Is Here!!

 

[petre]

all right, which value do we change to adjust the time to wait after wavedashing...it doesn't feel long enough.

other than that it seems all right, i haven't noticed any glitches yet...

EDIT: the biggest problem i'm having right now is that shielding during the wavedash almost completely kills your momentum. IMO, if we are going to be using this, something needs to be done about that. maybe i'm the only one that really has this problem, since in melee i always pressed R down all the way when wavedashing, and now if i don't press+release the button fast enough the shield comes out and kills the wavedash momentum.

 

[Dan_X]

all right, which value do we change to adjust the time to wait after wavedashing...it doesn't feel long enough.

other than that it seems all right, i haven't noticed any glitches yet...

I'm not sure, however, someone just made the argument that the time is too long. That it's too restricting. I definately don't think it's too long. Though, I guess we'll have to see what others think.

PW said he'd tweak the code if somethings not right.

 

[petre]

I'm not sure, however, someone just made the argument that the time is too long. That it's too restricting. I definately don't think it's too long. Though, I guess we'll have to see what others think.

PW said he'd tweak the code if somethings not right.

whoops didn't know people were posting their responses in the other thread.

i guess that there are some problems with it being too long...however i still don't like the shield problem. IMO there needs to be more lag time after landing from the airdodge where you cant do anything.

EDIT: GPDP has the right idea. make it so you cant shield during that period. problem solved.

in melee airdodging into the ground left you vulnerable for about 10 frames. if you were wavedashing you couldn't do anything for the first so many frames of the dash. in brawl you can shield almost instantly when you hit the ground for a wavedash (seriously it only looks like 1 or 2 frames of cooldown lag).

 

[GPDP]

The timer window should be reduced, but at the same time, you should be restricted from doing some things within that window, such as shielding and crawling (it makes WDing with Luigi too hard IMO).

Also, for what it's worth, CPU's are not broken at all with this code, since unlike the MAD code, you can still act after an AD. However, I notice they tend to AD on the spot, rather than in a direction like they used to with MAD.

 

[spunit262]

The timer window should be reduced, but at the same time, you should be restricted from doing some things within that window, such as shielding and crawling (it makes WDing with Luigi too hard IMO).

Also, for what it's worth, CPU's are not broken at all with this code, since unlike the MAD code, you can still act after an AD. However, I notice they tend to AD on the spot, rather than in a direction like they used to with MAD.

WDing with Luigi is fine.

 

[plasmatorture]

Any chance of us getting HAD2 (basically same code without the extra BADs)?
I'll give this one a shot I guess, though.

 

[Zilactic]

Yep the HAD code was everything you said it would be Orca. Its great. Special thanks to PW
WDing with DK and DDD is just so fun.

I was messing around with the codes and it seems that if you combine the HAD with spunits Start Jumps Sooner code... it makes it somewhat easier to perform. maybe its just me. can somebody else confirm this for me?

About the "fourth jump" someone mentioned in the other thread... i see the extra jump as a way to entice you to take even more risks off the edge. I was playing on FD and it felt like you fight from absolutely everywhere (cept completely below the stage) and still have a chance to get back. Made battles alot less conservative in my opinion. In a way I see it adding more to offense then it does defense.

Yeah like everyone else... it would be nice if nearly 1/2 of my WD (ok im exaggerating a bit) didnt end in a momentum ****blocking shield. haha Other than that, theres nothing else I can suggest at the moment.

If only it wasnt 90 lines.... it would be even better.

 

[Dan_X]

Any chance of us getting HAD2 (basically same code without the extra BADs)?
I'll give this one a shot I guess, though.

No. Try this code, you'll see that the ADs are not overpowered. Removing the BADs hurt HAD, as it would leave you vulnerable at times you shouldn't be.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'll say this:

The code works and it works well. It does everything you said it would do. Also, I'm not sure how you can't see it, but there clearly is a 4th jump here. It also helps redirect your trajectory or some other neat tricks. I think it's a great code, but...

I'm not sold on the wavedashing. The cast was much more balanced in B+ with Kupo's and Mookie's code sets, I'm just afraid of wavedashing throwing that off. It'll be a big debate here in the next few days...

 

[plasmatorture]

No. Try this code, you'll see that the ADs are not overpowered. Removing the BADs hurt HAD, as it would leave you vulnerable at times you shouldn't be.

I tried it and it froze, but I think that's due to some of the newer codes I had to use to make room for it and not HAD itself (as nobody else has had any issues ). It's funny, though, the reason I want to remove BADs is exactly that - BADs keep you too safe. Plus, there's the whole HAD2 taking less lines issue, which is important to me....

but I am very excited to try it out when I can get a set that works with it, don't get me wrong.

 

[Archangel]

My dream is made Real!!! HAD is GREAT!!! after pages of hate. It is exactly What I Imagine and tryed to discribe in the past.

 

[:034:]

PAL version plz?

 

[goodoldganon]

You'll probably have to wait for Paprikka Killer for a PAL code. Sorry buddy.

 

[Starscream]

in melee airdodging into the ground left you vulnerable for about 10 frames. if you were wavedashing you couldn't do anything for the first so many frames of the dash. in brawl you can shield almost instantly when you hit the ground for a wavedash (seriously it only looks like 1 or 2 frames of cooldown lag).

^This.

Is there not a way to make the code so that you can't do anything for however many frames (it wouldn't be the same as Melee due to ridiculous wavedash lengths) instead of using a timer that only restricts using the MAD again? Wasn't a large part of the problem with the old MAD code the fact that you could do almost anything out of a wavedash instantly? I haven't tried the new one yet but from the sound of things it seems largely the same except you cannot wavedash again, instead you would just do a jumping BAD due to the timer. So we still have sliding tilts, smashes, spot dodges, jabs? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I hated that about the old code.

Can't wait to try all these new codes but I need to get my Wii back first.

 

[Archangel]

1 Problem so far. Timer....It is a bit too much. WD at a faster speed won't break the game it'll just fun for less Moble characters. The ones who get little out of D-Dancing.

 

[V-K]

could anyone make a video of HAD?
I can´t test until paprika killer makes the PAL code.

 

[Archangel]

Wish I could. Keep searching Brawl+ Date add on Youtube

 

[:034:]

You'll probably have to wait for Paprikka Killer for a PAL code. Sorry buddy.

Good thing I know the guy! *PM's*