Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[Kix]

I want videos of people that did well in tournaments in Melee using MAD or HAD as MK vs. other characters.

 

[petre]

I want videos of people that did well in tournaments in Melee using MAD or HAD as MK vs. other characters.

in Melee.......as MK

lol o k

 

[Kix]

lol o k

Playing Brawl+!!!!!! Good Melee players, especially those that might have played other fighting games competitively are those whose findings would actually mean something and so would their videos.

I was never good at Melee, some people are way too fast! I think the execution and knowledge would really help.

 

[Team Giza]

Kix, you keep mentioning unblockables? However I do not see how mad even causes unblockable since people can attack right after the directional airdodge or even airdodge again with the current idea for the code, right? So... how are there unblockables?

 

[storm92]

It's funny that anyone would complain that HAD copies and pastes a mechanic from Melee which is clearly wrong. I mean, it's not like we've copied and pasted the mechanics of hitstun, lag cancelling, shield stun, lagless edges, no sweet-spotting, dash dancing, hitlagg, etc., right? Some of those copied enteties were exclusively from Melee, Smash 64, or both, and it was justified then. If anything, the fact that we're trying to modify MAD and improve it; HAD, should be good enough.

The complaints that some of you make are funny in that you complained about MAD for similar reasons. HAD is what it is because of you guys, to appease your complaints about MAD a Hundid system was formed. Stop pretending that you know the effects HAD will have, because there's simply no proof. Only once the code has come out will we know the true pros and cons of a hybrid system.

Orca, I respect that you typed up that huge OP with all the questions and answers that your side has.
But I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything you said.
Our two sides have fundamental disagreements that no compromise can fix.
We think WD doesn't fit and is detrimental to Brawl+, and you think it adds depth.
Simple enough.

 

[Kix]

Kix, you keep mentioning unblockables? However I do not see how mad even causes unblockable since people can attack right after the directional airdodge or even airdodge again with the current idea for the code, right? So... how are there unblockables?

Footstool jump?

 

[shanus]

Playing Brawl+!!!!!! Good Melee players, especially those that might have played other fighting games competitively are those whose findings would actually mean something and so would their videos.

I was never good at Melee, some people are way too fast! I think the execution and knowledge would really help.

I recommend you check out my vids on youtube (go to general sections of the brawl videos section and you'll see a thread with mine) as they have gotten pretty good reviews. I frequented a lot of melee tourney's (won 2 of which with around 30 people, nothing huge, placed pretty well at some others).


While the vids are of falcon and diddy, they are pretty awesome. I haven't played much MK in B+ because frankly falcon is too fun. That and my friends would castrate me.

 

[Team Giza]

Footstool jump?

I'm confused how this varies from normal brawl.

 

[Kix]

I'm confused how this varies from normal brawl.

Air dodging downward into an action. Sometimes character height gets in the way so I'm not entirely sure how it would/if it would work on a few characters but my Wii DVD driver stopped working so I haven't been able to play it.

I thought that if people played with it enough it would turn into an important tactic. The five people actually using MAD that is?!

I'll check out your channel, Shanus!

All that matters is it works on MK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[shanus]

Air dodging downward into an action. Sometimes character height gets in the way so I'm not entirely sure how it would/if it would work on a few characters but my Wii DVD driver stopped working so I haven't been able to play it.

I thought that if people played with it enough it would turn into an important tactic. The five people actually using MAD that is?!

I'll check out your channel, Shanus!

I thought with MAD that does not work. With HAD, the DAD could possibly be used to footstool the opponent for some sort of lock of tech punish, but wouldnt that require first hitting them off the ground thereby defeating the point? I personally don't play characters which start a lock from footstools (i.e. kirby) so I'm not sure but it doesnt sound terribly useful since you first would need to hit and then why air dodge into it haha

 

[Kix]

I thought with MAD that does not work. With HAD, the DAD could possibly be used to footstool the opponent for some sort of lock of tech punish, but wouldnt that require first hitting them off the ground thereby defeating the point? I personally don't play characters which start a lock from footstools (i.e. kirby) so I'm not sure but it doesnt sound terribly useful since you first would need to hit and then why air dodge into it haha

Can't you do it when they are blocking? From the air?

To make this more clear; I am talking about jumping on their head into an immediate dodge to the floor into a move. They would still get the recovery lag while you can do something on them.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Don't feel like keeping up with subjective criticism on MAD, so I'm just going to list my pros and cons of MAD and BAD.

BAD:

Pros:
Safer defense in the air.
Familiar to Brawlers.

Cons:
-Lets you airdodge right out of hitstun.
-Is too easy of an option with faster FF'ing.
-Is pretty much the best option to use in the air no matter what. FF'ing with an airdodge makes it safe to use from higher heights with more gravity. Some say you can just predict where they're going to land, but they can airdodge into perfect shield, airdodge into spot dodge, or airdodge into a fast move that beats out yours. Either way, it becomes less of a game of keeping offensive momentum and more about making sure they don't get a free hit on landing. If anything, BAD is the option making the game less diverse.

MAD:

Pros:
-Can't airdodge out of certain moves (Aether, Bowser Drop) without some form of risk.
-Adds options for mindgames. Anything that can be JC can be wavedash canceled, along with the ability to platform cancel and waveland.
-Adds character specific AT's to experiment with.
-Makes the air game more varied.
-Universal option.
-Adds more depth with a little bit of technical ability. (But still amazingly easy to do with buffer)

Cons:
-Harder to use.
-Feels unnatural to some.

Other arguments I've heard:

Wrecks the air game in Brawl, juggling is too overpowered - Not true. Directional AD just has to be used in a smarter way. You can fast fall right afterwards with no landing lag, and you don't have to be at the peak of your height before you can try. Its harder, but not completely useless when you compare it with Melee where airdodges actually had lag. Juggling wasn't overpowered then was it?

Edgeguarding is too easy - Regular airdodge doesn't help much more. If you really have enough time to airdodge off the stage you'd probably be pretty high up anyways.

Makes movement less varied with wavedash spotdodge and triangle jumping - Wavedashing into spot dodge is just like regular spot dodge, it can be punished when you catch it. Just because you can move with it doesn't mean its abusable or the best approach (While BAD'ing into the ground was one of the safest approaches in Brawl). Triangle jumping is no different from airdodging into the ground. It just adds more mindgames and flexibility being able to do it right away, but again still not abusable and nothing that BAD doesn't already let you do. These are just techniques people will now have to watch out for.

People are rejecting MAD and only thinking about how it just "Imitates Melee." but I think it can add much more to Brawl. If we gave it a chance it would be cool to see some super technical Sonics and Pikas, and maybe see strats with it that would catch us off-guard. More fun compared to boring old BAD, and differentiates it from Regular Brawl more.

I'm just throwing the idea out there because I found out how using it added to the game. Just thought people were missing out on it otherwise. Surprised to see so many people reject it like it was so negative to the game. A lot of codes are "unnecessary" and obviously people want to draw the line somewhere, but I just thought MAD was worth it considering its a mechanic from Melee.

I'm going to use it either way though.

 

[storm92]

Blank Mauser, please use the search button and find the HUNDREDS of others times we've debated and shown how MAD is flawed.
Come on now, there is a reason almost everyone else has accepted this.

 

[Blank Mauser]

But MAD isn't flawed.

 

[Kix]

vs

 

[storm92]

But MAD isn't flawed.

I suggest once again you look through some old threads.
Possibly the BAD vs MAD thread, where we did provide great reasons.
If you're frustrated on why no one is willing to argue about this before, it's because we've done this all before, many times, in many different threads.

 

[Kix]

I suggest once again you look through some old threads.
Possibly the BAD vs MAD thread, where we did provide great reasons.
If you're frustrated on why no one is willing to argue about this before, it's because we've done this all before, many times, in many different threads.

People told me that about the thread which I apparently participated in and no one even addressed what I brought up the entire time. So don't be so sure that they have just addressed it. Re-listing points really isn't hard.

 

[leafgreen386]

I believe this thread is against the best interests of brawl+ in its current condition. I advise orca to take down the first post before this gets any more out of hand before we've actually reached a conclusion. This thread currently makes it look like the brawl+ project supports HAD's inclusion into brawl+ in its entirety, and that is simply not true. Any official posts on this matter need to keep a stance of neutrality. The argument that changing the airdodge system could scare away potential players is still a very valid one, and while it is ok if we don't agree about HAD's inclusion into brawl+, we can't have it look like a code that is currently still in debate is officially supported. Therefore, I am requesting that orca repost the first post as a separate post in this thread, and takes it down from the OP in favor of strict neutrality, in addition to renaming the thread into a proper title for a debate.

 

[shanus]

I believe this thread is against the best interests of brawl+ in its current condition. I advise orca to take down the first post before this gets any more out of hand before we've actually reached a conclusion. This thread currently makes it look like the brawl+ project supports HAD's inclusion into brawl+ in its entirety, and that is simply not true. Any official posts on this matter need to keep a stance of neutrality. The argument that changing the airdodge system could scare away potential players is still a very valid one, and while it is ok if we don't agree about HAD's inclusion into brawl+, we can't have it look like a code that is currently still in debate is officially supported. Therefore, I am requesting that orca repost the first post as a separate post in this thread, and takes it down from the OP in favor of strict neutrality, in addition to renaming the thread into a proper title for a debate.

Thats what i posted earlier as well. It makes B+ look bad to a big portion of the community :-\

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

jesus.. this is getting really out of hand... all for a fancy looking AT -_-

 

[Dan_X]

MAD is not the way to go, as we've found, as it truly does limit the air game to such a degree. In addition, in the current MAD code, wavedashing is too good, and makes every character wayyy too fast. Bowser can stack wavedashes so he can match the fastest characters in speed. At first I was blind to this, I backed Mad. Then I experienced what others had been proclaiming in game, I found that juggling was far too easy-- it's just rediculous. MAD worked well in Melee, but doesn't translate the same to Brawl. The thing is, Brawl is far more focused on the aerial game than both 64 and Melee respectively. However, MAD with hitstun nerfs that air game wayyy to much.

HAD is here to answer the flaws of MAD. A Hybrid system is meant to bring the best of both worlds together. If you like MAD, you will like HAD. If you like BAD, you should also like HAD.

 

[storm92]

I believe this thread is against the best interests of brawl+ in its current condition. I advise orca to take down the first post before this gets any more out of hand before we've actually reached a conclusion. This thread currently makes it look like the brawl+ project supports HAD's inclusion into brawl+ in its entirety, and that is simply not true. Any official posts on this matter need to keep a stance of neutrality. The argument that changing the airdodge system could scare away potential players is still a very valid one, and while it is ok if we don't agree about HAD's inclusion into brawl+, we can't have it look like a code that is currently still in debate is officially supported. Therefore, I am requesting that orca repost the first post as a separate post in this thread, and takes it down from the OP in favor of strict neutrality, in addition to renaming the thread into a proper title for a debate.

Quoted for truth.

A Hybrid system is meant to bring the best of both worlds together. If you like MAD, you will like HAD. If you like BAD, you should also like HAD.

I think I can speak for the majority of B+'ers and say that we like our world just the way it is.
Please do not speak for us; a good number of us will not like HAD.
That's an absurd insinuation Orca.

 

[leafgreen386]

HAD is here to answer the flaws of MAD. A Hybrid system is meant to bring the best of both worlds together. If you like MAD, you will like HAD. If you like BAD, you should also like HAD.

Um, no. Frick no. HAD ruins the game. Seriously, it's so bad that I would almost prefer MAD to it. MAD makes the game too easy for the attacker. HAD makes the game too easy for the defender. They both enable WDing. Every one of these things is bad.

Also, thank you for completely ignoring my post.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

MAD is not the way to go, as we've found, as it truly does limit the air game to such a degree. In addition, in the current MAD code, wavedashing is too good, and makes every character wayyy too fast. Bowser can stack wavedashes so he can match the fastest characters in speed. At first I was blind to this, I backed Mad. Then I experienced what others had been proclaiming in game, I found that juggling was far too easy-- it's just rediculous. MAD worked well in Melee, but doesn't translate the same to Brawl. The thing is, Brawl is far more focused on the aerial game than both 64 and Melee respectively. However, MAD with hitstun nerfs that air game wayyy to much.

HAD is here to answer the flaws of MAD. A Hybrid system is meant to bring the best of both worlds together. If you like MAD, you will like HAD. If you like BAD, you should also like HAD.

so you're saying a directional air dodge AND multiple brawl air dodges wouldn't limit the air game as much as one melee air dodge??? do you realize how hard it would be to hit someone in the air? characters with slow aerials would never be able to punish someone off stage, because you could just air dodge in a direction that you can't predict, and by the time you figured it out, they could do another BAD right afterwards! this nerfs off ledge gameplay immensely!

 

[BEES]

For the whole time there was space to use MAD no one was able to break it or prove that it destroyed game balance. Wtf additional friction to the DC? I think you just hate sliding in any form.

Erm... sorry about that. Meant to say decrease the friction on the DC. Not sure how that got butchered...

 

[Kix]

Um, no. Frick no. HAD ruins the game. Seriously, it's so bad that I would almost prefer MAD to it. MAD makes the game too easy for the attacker. HAD makes the game too easy for the defender. They both enable WDing. Every one of these things is bad.

MAD gives defensive options as well in the ground game.

 

[oliwonder]

i just want to get on this thread and show my support to Orca and HAD. In fact, I've been supporting this ever since when Wind Owl first made that brawl+ chatroom way back when: I first mentioned the idea of fusing MAD & BAD(of course it was shot down). Everyone's theories on all the sides of this debate are all pretty legit, but the fact of the matter is that we will never be able to prove our sides or reach a conclusion or compromise until the code is made and tested. And the good news is that this debate will definitely end thanks to PW for taking on this task. So I suggest that since this code is already being made, everyone just stop wasting time debating on something you can't prove yet and hold onto your thoughts and unleash it once the code is in.

 

[Kix]

The other part of the community appears? This isn't fair!

 

[storm92]

MAD gives defensive options as well in the ground game.

...did I hear something?
Was it something about MAD?

Nah, I don't think so.

 

[Kix]

...did I hear something?
Was it something about MAD?

Nah, I don't think so.

We were talking about the current code? For the record I still prefer just a single air dodge or second one in which you can act but can't dodge again. The reason why I wouldn't really mind the compromise is because more people actually like it and the stuff I've mentioned that is possible with the MAD is still intact.

 

[kupo15]

Late WDing seems to let characters get in on absurd hitboxes if done correctly, the movement while starting up moves that can also be done out of wavelanding lets you approach or retreat differently while a move is in start up. Also the unblockables have potential for approach and add a third mix up option in instances. I'm repeating myself over and over again for a reason.

I think that these things can help balance the game and make characters that are worse be able to win more if done correctly. I don't think it would make characters really feel less unique. You already do pretty much similarly with running, and the character's WD act differently. You react to things the same with characters now a lot, this just adds more variance.

About the air game - does it really make it that much easier for the air dodger to counter? Why wouldn't BAD and directional influencing to the side make it too easy as well? Can't the attacker FF and or directional influence away into another setup? Waveland into something? Again I don't even see it as necessary to act after one, or at the very least AD again.

You keep mentioning unblockables as in we need WDing to get around unblockables? If so nothing in this game is impossible to get around and if you are having trouble, find a secondary. Dont use wavedashing as a crutch to get around things that are supposed to be hard to get around.

As if this game plays much more like Melee because of this? The game is a sequel. Besides the fact that this WDing doesn't even work the same and in fact lost some applications while adding more, if it was the same you are playing a game that is a sequel to the game before it. That doesn't necessarily means something needs to be in it but you just didn't like something that was in the game before it. Do you just not like the similarities so even if it brings more good it shouldn't be in there?

Yes it is a sequel which is why air dodging is back. We don't need to bring directional air dodging back and everyone has given great examples why HAD is bad

Can't you do it when they are blocking? From the air?

To make this more clear; I am talking about jumping on their head into an immediate dodge to the floor into a move. They would still get the recovery lag while you can do something on them.

So you want HAD because of footstool combos?

But MAD isn't flawed.

Don't listen to him, he doesn't even play brawl+ so of course he wouldn't know what MAD truly is in B+. He has said so before

I agree with leaf. This thread is very misleading and is giving us a bad image. We should close this topic

 

[BEES]

i just want to get on this thread and show my support to Orca and HAD. In fact, I've been supporting this ever since when Wind Owl first made that brawl+ chatroom way back when: I first mentioned the idea of fusing MAD & BAD(of course it was shot down). Everyone's theories on all the sides of this debate are all pretty legit, but the fact of the matter is that we will never be able to prove our sides or reach a conclusion or compromise until the code is made and tested. And the good news is that this debate will definitely end thanks to PW for taking on this task. So I suggest that since this code is already being made, everyone just stop wasting time debating on something you can't prove yet and hold onto your thoughts and unleash it once the code is in.

Sure, make a code and test it. I wouldn't really argue with that. I do think you'll see most of the problems with MAD reappearing, along with some others.

I've been trying to get support for FF-canceling jumps for a long time now, and I still think we should test that before we make assumptions.

If the purpose of this thread is to get coders to work on some controversial mechanics to test, then I'm down. Seems like the purpose is to say HAD should be the STANDARD, that EVERYONE USES, which seems a little (very) preemptive, especially since we've already come to a consensus on BAD, and this doesn't seem like it will fix many of the problems with MAD, or address the sentiments of the community that are opposed to wavedashing in the game in any form.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I said I'm obviously not a good player and don't know what I'm talking about, not that I don't play Brawl+.

I play Brawl+, but don't like it without MAD, so that means I must know nothing about it.

Edit: Why are people so veracious about all these supposedly negative effects of MAD but don't consider why MAD is good or why BAD can be negative? It just seems like people are being narrow-minded.

 

[Kix]

He appears!

You keep mentioning unblockables as in we need WDing to get around unblockables? If so nothing in this game is impossible to get around and if you are having trouble, find a secondary. Dont use wavedashing as a crutch to get around things that are supposed to be hard to get around.

You keep saying this and I have no clue what you are talking about! I'm talking about creating footstool jump unblockables by dodging toward the ground into move while the opponent is stunned. You could mind game someone into this in a lot of circumstances I think. You can't do it with a non-directional dodge.

Yes it is a sequel which is why air dodging is back. We don't need to bring directional air dodging back and everyone has given great examples why HAD is bad

They did?

So you want HAD because of footstool combos?

Not just this, I just think this has huge potential if people played if for a bit. Directional dodging, not HAD specifically.

That and I think the delayed WD's invincibility and just he movement + wavelanding would add quite a bit.

 

[leafgreen386]

K. I'm gonna repost this again, because it needs to be seen.

I believe this thread is against the best interests of brawl+ in its current condition. I advise orca to take down the first post before this gets any more out of hand before we've actually reached a conclusion. This thread currently makes it look like the brawl+ project supports HAD's inclusion into brawl+ in its entirety, and that is simply not true. Any official posts on this matter need to keep a stance of neutrality. The argument that changing the airdodge system could scare away potential players is still a very valid one, and while it is ok if we don't agree about HAD's inclusion into brawl+, we can't have it look like a code that is currently still in debate is officially supported. Therefore, I am requesting that orca repost the first post as a separate post in this thread, and takes it down from the OP in favor of strict neutrality, in addition to renaming the thread into a proper title for a debate.

That and I think the delayed WD's invincibility and just he movement + wavelanding would add quite a bit.

Just figured I'd mention that the technical name for this is "triangle jumping."

 

[Kix]

I didn't notice this:

I've been trying to get support for FF-canceling jumps for a long time now, and I still think we should test that before we make assumptions.
.

I'm sure this combined with horizontal air speed would recreate a few of the uses without everyone's complaints about WDing, actually. That would allow unblockables and more variation, actually. If you had a momentum flying air dodge then maybe that would go through hitboxes too but I'm not sure how it would work.

Those two things might actually give all of these uses back without the directional dodge.

Just figured I'd mention that the technical name for this is "triangle jumping."

 

[kupo15]

He appears!


You keep saying this and I have no clue what you are talking about! I'm talking about creating footstool jump unblockables by dodging toward the ground into move while the opponent is stunned. You could mind game someone into this in a lot of circumstances I think. You can't do it with a non-directional dodge.

You keep saying this and I too have no idea what you mean. When you say unblockables Im thinking that you are saying that we need it too get around unblockable moves such as Marths fair (its not an unblockable)

I think keeping HAD for the sake of footstools are kinda a weak reason to support HAD. We are planning on removing FS locks anyway...

 

[BEES]

Edit: Why are people so veracious about all these supposedly negative effects of MAD but don't consider why MAD is good or why BAD can be negative? It just seems like people are being narrow-minded.

I'd try it if it looked fun. I'm already having a pretty good time though. Brawl+ already feels like a fast, deep, interesting game. Adding huge changes like MAD seems excessive. Plus, I have deeply repressed memories of falling off the edge to my death after airdodging carelessly, and I'm quite fond of keeping the buffer system as it is.

There is another force at work that you should be aware of, that will undermine your efforts to get MAD or HAD into Brawl+. Public perception. The competitive community of Smash would not look very good if Brawl+ wound up having wavedashing in it. It would be perceived as a weak attempt to keep the competitive metagame the same without having to learn anything new. Regardless of the validity of that, that's how it would be perceived.

 

[Kix]

You keep saying this and I too have no idea what you mean. When you say unblockables Im thinking that you are saying that we need it too get around unblockable moves such as Marths fair (its not an unblockable)

I think keeping HAD for the sake of footstools are kinda a weak reason to support HAD. We are planning on removing FS locks anyway...

For mixup purposes you have to be close. I wouldn't really see much a problem with it being situational on turtling opponents.

Back to FF canceling jumps that might actually break the game, but it sounds like a ton of fun! I'm just imagining some Hokuto no Ken stuff like doing an unblockable into a juggle combo into a foostool jump on the opponent to put them into the ground and hitting them on the way down into another set up or something along those lines. That would be so much fun! I think retaining horizontal speed with the FF would be what would make the WD happen.

I'd love to test that. Otherwise I still like a single directional dodge but I don't see much to argue it for at this point if the functions of FF canceling and horizontal movement were that cool.

 

[MuBa]

Everyone wants to SLIIIIIIIIIDDDEE!!!

IT'S ELECTRIC! BOOGEY WOOGEY WOOGEY!