Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[Blank Mauser]

It has very minimal application offstage. It also had very minimal application offstage in melee. Just stop arguing about MAD. Even the HAD supporters don't want it.

Well thats going to get us everywhere, considering I don't think hardly anyone here has given MAD a chance and mentioning it gets people riled up.

MAD is just better in too many ways for points I've already mentioned.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

blank mauser you don't even play brawl+ why are you even debating jesus christ get the hell out

 

[kupo15]

Well thats going to get us everywhere, considering I don't think hardly anyone here has given MAD a chance and mentioning it gets people riled up.

MAD is just better in too many ways for points I've already mentioned.

But y'know I don't know anything about Brawl or Brawl+ so lol. I'm just saying words.

Give us a good reason why we should listen to you

 

[.MaRiO]

lol at blank mauser Yes i Have given Mad a chance and it is in my current code set, but I can see why people would not like MAD. lol just stop debating over mad
not to make a dumb comment lol but if you want to use MAD so much just go play some Melee lmao

It's not a compromise, f#@! compromises.
The way we've got things done around here have been by debating, and so far I'm pretty sure everyone can see the WD is not exactly winning.
They're not ridiculous, you just have no retort.

The only legit argument I have heard so far is that it will turn away the new brawl players
This is the only argument I can agree with lol

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

The only legit argument I have heard so far is that it will turn away the new brawl players
This is the only argument I can agree with lol

and that's all you need, imo. brawl+'s standard has to stay far away from wavedashing as possible.

u can use w/e the hell you want.

edit: yo mario i checked out your match at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQV-hKH-AeY
judging from this video i think i can safely say that after seeing ur luigi friend not wavedash AND kick your *** you don't know what u talking about lol

edit: ooooooops mario you're luigi!!! and you don't wavedash! wtf!

 

[Blank Mauser]

Considering the alternatives (HAD and BAD), I'd rather not.

And Kupo you can do it because as scrubby as I am its who you guys are trying to appeal to right?

Or maybe because if you look at them unbiasedly they do have some substance.

 

[BEES]

To those of you who suggest a code that creates a wavedash like effect without the Melee AD... I don't see the point. This won't facilitate as many great options as HAD will. The point of had is not simple wavedashing, it's just a perk.

It would be weaker than actual wavedashing. Shorter distance, slower initiation, no invulnerability frames which would make it the wrong choice in some situations, and the right one in others.

It would still be an advanced positioning technique that would add some depth to the game.

It would preserve BAD, which in my opinion is a GOOD THING. As far as the airdodge elements go, I think the fact that you have options after an airdoge other than 'fall to the ground so you can do something again' makes the game better. One of the few improvements in Brawl. HAD accomplishes this, but at the price of making airdodging extremely powerful.

Less lines of code.

Easier. This is an argument many people would be afraid to use, but they shouldn't be. To those that want to add wavedashing: we have a chance to make it easier, why not do it? The real skill in the game comes from the choice of moves you make, not your acquired muscle memory to make them. This would also make brawl+ less intimidating to newcomers, which we want to attract. The strategic elements would not be reduced.

 

[Shell]

I think it'd be pretty cool if a quick roll from down to forward on the stick performed some type of short wavedash. Same for backwards.

Wavelanding? Just quickly roll from down to forwards/backwards as you land.

Meh. Just throwin' it out there. I don't even know how it would work with crawling characters.

 

[Team Giza]

The only legit argument I have heard so far is that it will turn away the new brawl players

If my arguments have not been legit I would like to know why.

 

[Dan_X]

I've re-written the OP entirely, please check it out. Thanks guys.

 

[V-K]

Imo the idea of combining MAD and BAD doesn´t sound bad at all.
I used that MAD code but it took too much code space so the code HAD has to be smaller.
Wavedashing and Wavelanding give a lot more ways of movements and mindgames so if we get a good code and paprika killer will port this to PAL then I will probably use it.

 

[Kix]

Balance does not equal diversity. Even if the argument was true that adding wavedashing would add balance (which I am not convinced of). It still makes it so that all the characters will be able to react to certain tactics the exact same way. It makes the characters play more similarly in this respect. It overall might make the characters more balanced but it would be making the characters feel less unique.

No. Because that amount of code used for HAD could be better used to make techniques that help make characters more diverse and balanced.

Secondly homogenization in an aspect like this does not automatically equal balance. Wavedashing will make it easier for a lot of characters to get around zoning techniques that other characters are based around. In the end its going to make the characters whose offensive tactics are least countered by wavedashing to be much better. Its gonna hurt characters that have their main tactics countered by wavedashing.

Late WDing seems to let characters get in on absurd hitboxes if done correctly, the movement while starting up moves that can also be done out of wavelanding lets you approach or retreat differently while a move is in start up. Also the unblockables have potential for approach and add a third mix up option in instances. I'm repeating myself over and over again for a reason.

I think that these things can help balance the game and make characters that are worse be able to win more if done correctly. I don't think it would make characters really feel less unique. You already do pretty much similarly with running, and the character's WD act differently. You react to things the same with characters now a lot, this just adds more variance.

About the air game - does it really make it that much easier for the air dodger to counter? Why wouldn't BAD and directional influencing to the side make it too easy as well? Can't the attacker FF and or directional influence away into another setup? Waveland into something? Again I don't even see it as necessary to act after one, or at the very least AD again.

 

[Team Giza]

Late WDing seems to let characters get in on absurd hitboxes if done correctly, the movement while starting up moves that can also be done out of wavelanding lets you approach or retreat differently while a move is in start up.

Yes and this is actually what I am saying is bad for the game. I think the zoning and footsie game has more depth then the simple wavedash approach and defense.

 

[Kix]

Yes and this is actually what I am saying is bad for the game. I think the zoning and footsie game has more depth then the simple wavedash approach and defense.

This would be a well timed technique that could be punished. It is by no means absolute and you would need distance.

 

[Finns7]

The only legit argument I have heard so far is that it will turn away the new brawl players
This is the only argument I can agree with lol

I dont agree with that, thats not legit.

 

[BEES]

Group B: This group comprises the people who went from 64, to Melee, and now to Brawl-- then Brawl+. This makes up the majority of us. The majority of these people probably wouldn't be utterly against wavedashing or HAD on the basis that they were familiar with it in the past.

Majority.... might want to reconsider that. I think that's very misrepresentative. Personally, as someone who appreciates all 3 games, I'd like to see the metagame for brawl+ evolve as differently from Melee as possible. Simply copy-pasting melee elements is uncreative. I think you should focus your efforts to getting something entirely new to smash added in.

I loved Melee, and if I wanted to play it, I'd play it. I loved 64 and if I wanted to play it, I'd play it. Let's try to make Brawl+ a deep game due to a different set of ATs.

Each time one leaves a platform, the first air dodge they do will be a Melee directionally influenced one. Each time after that it would be a Brawl AD. Jumping again would not reset the Melee AD, nothing would beside touching down on the ground. In cases where the character has "touched" the ground but they actually haven't, like Bowser when he Klaw Hops, that would count as having touched the ground. You'd get the Melee Air Dodge back. However, that really wouldn't pose a problem at all because it really wouldn't play out much differently than Brawl's current AD system.

Think about the ramifications if everyone can jump after a directionalized airdodge. Airdodge to your opponents off the stage to attack them! This really sounds too gamebreaking, and this is coming from the guy that wants to fastfall cancel jumps.

 

[Kix]

Majority.... might want to reconsider that. I think that's very misrepresentative. Personally, as someone who appreciates all 3 games, I'd like to see the metagame for brawl+ evolve as differently from Melee as possible. Simply copy-pasting melee elements is uncreative. I think you should focus your efforts to getting something entirely new to smash added in.

I loved Melee, and if I wanted to play it, I'd play it. I loved 64 and if I wanted to play it, I'd play it. Let's try to make Brawl+ a deep game due to a different set of ATs.

You do realize this WDing, although partly functioning the same, does a few other major things? Before you couldn't use it to get through people into moves in situations and you couldn't do unblockables from the air either. That's pretty different to me.

How about we actually have people play with the WDing to actually see how they can utilize these things?

Think about the ramifications if everyone can jump after a directionalized airdodge. Airdodge to your opponents off the stage to attack them! This really sounds too gamebreaking, and this is coming from the guy that wants to fastfall cancel jumps.

Think about the ramifications of Brawl's air dodging. Air dodge and attack or jump and attack! You are like frozen after the dodge for a moment but I'm not sure how that would work with the changes. It doubt it will be lagless. How can't you do close to the same thing with the current air dodge system?

 

[shanus]

I vote no for HAD. Its unnecessary and gives air defense / campiness a lot of nasty potential. We don't need wavedashing in Brawl+ to make it good. Dash cancelling with a crouch and improved DD are fine ways to approach.

IMO, a thread like this is unnecessary and could give a lot of potential Brawl+ players the wrong impression with what we are trying to do with this game (so many are like OH GOD NOT MELEE - i love melee just as an FYI).

To reiterate, BAD is fine, esp. with hitstun > 9%.

 

[Kix]

Of course we don't need HAD or MAD, but we don't need a lot of stuff. Why isn't it a good idea to give the game more variation for movement and the other techniques that come out of this? The arguments that it would make things work one way are not true at all.

 

[shanus]

Of course we don't need HAD or MAD, but we don't need a lot of stuff. Why isn't it a good idea to give the game more variation for movement and the other techniques that come out of this? The arguments that it would make things work one way are not true at all.

Can you imagine how much this will break edge guarding? Imagine i do a FF flub knee off the edge to knock you back which is generally a fairly safe maneuver. You can then air dodge upwards, possibly retaliate and still recover. Its just stupid to have directional control of an air dodge and still have movement capabilities afterwards. It encourages defensive air gameplay even against an enhanced ground approach. Bad idea to me.

While I love wavedashing, but we really don't need it as another form of movement. It served its purpose in the past, but we don't need it now.

Let alone the millions of VB people who will cry so hard if it was incorporated into B+. Remember, we need people to use B+ for it to be worth doing it.

 

[BEES]

Of course we don't need HAD or MAD, but we don't need a lot of stuff. Why isn't it a good idea to give the game more variation for movement and the other techniques that come out of this? The arguments that it would make things work one way are not true at all.

I find it interesting that you don't dispute my strongest point of contention: that this is just copying and pasting things from Melee, when we could add other things that are new to the series instead. Wouldn't that be more interesting?

We waited a long time for this game to come out. Some of us were really looking forward to it because Melee had grown a bit stale. It's still fun to ride the nostalgia train and play that game occasionally, but we should really be thinking differently about Brawl+.

Think about the ramifications of Brawl's air dodging. Air dodge and attack or jump and attack! You are like frozen after the dodge for a moment but I'm not sure how that would work with the changes. It doubt it will be lagless. How can't you do close to the same thing with the current air dodge system?

This is not something equivalent you're talking about here. You cannot directionalize Brawl's airdodge, so you can't pursue with it in the air, it only increases your defensive options far away from the stage.

I will say that I'm all up for adding subtle ATs. This is not subtle. It is very VERY powerful. Powerful enough to trump most other approaches in most other situations; powerful enough to create severe game imbalances. We've had threads about this before. Everyone wanted to try WDing when the code was first made, so it's gotten extensive testing. It basically becomes super Snake bros. Even with the proposed nerfs the OP is suggesting, it would still be too good.

 

[Kix]

Can you imagine how much this will break edge guarding? Imagine i do a FF flub knee off the edge to knock you back which is generally a fairly safe maneuver. You can then air dodge upwards, possibly retaliate and still recover. Its just stupid to have directional control of an air dodge and still have movement capabilities afterwards. It encourages defensive air gameplay even against an enhanced ground approach. Bad idea to me.

While I love wavedashing, but we really don't need it as another form of movement. It served its purpose in the past, but we don't need it now.

Let alone the millions of VB people who will cry so hard if it was incorporated into B+. Remember, we need people to use B+ for it to be worth doing it.

With the current hitstun? I don't even see that situation. If they a lower down you still have the advantage and either they dodge up and have vulnerable frames or have vulnerable frames then catch the ledge.

So then a single air dodge wouldn't be a problem for you?

I don't see how it couldn't serve the purpose of making this game better right now. I don't get why people are crying unless mostly they think it is stupid and don't like the potential it adds to the game.

I find it interesting that you don't dispute my strongest point of contention: that this is just copying and pasting things from Melee, when we could add other things that are new to the series instead. Wouldn't that be more interesting?

Didn't I? It only resembles it with some similar uses that don't necessarily work the same and it has more into it. What would you want to add that's as much of a potential balancing agent that rewards precision, brings mindgames and a third aspect to mixup?

We waited a long time for this game to come out. Some of us were really looking forward to it because Melee had grown a bit stale. It's still fun to ride the nostalgia train and play that game occasionally, but we should really be thinking differently about Brawl+.

As if this game plays much more like Melee because of this? The game is a sequel. Besides the fact that this WDing doesn't even work the same and in fact lost some applications while adding more, if it was the same you are playing a game that is a sequel to the game before it. That doesn't necessarily means something needs to be in it but you just didn't like something that was in the game before it. Do you just not like the similarities so even if it brings more good it shouldn't be in there?

This is not something equivalent you're talking about here. You cannot directionalize Brawl's airdodge, so you can't pursue with it in the air, it only increases your defensive options far away from the stage.

If there were the same lag before you could do it again as with Brawl's air dodge them maybe it makes you closer to them but I wouldn't call that pursuing. It kind of freezes you in a spot, whereas within BAD you can direction influence and get closer to someone. Wavelanding is entirely different but if you save it until you get low your opponent might have messed up in pursuit.

I will say that I'm all up for adding subtle ATs. This is not subtle. It is very VERY powerful. Powerful enough to trump most other approaches in most other situations; powerful enough to create severe game imbalances. We've had threads about this before. Everyone wanted to try WDing when the code was first made, so it's gotten extensive testing. It basically becomes super Snake bros. Even with the proposed nerfs the OP is suggesting, it would still be too good.

I think it would be the exact opposite. I can already see how it could be countered and how it wouldn't work in all situation. Also characters have different WD and I don't think running would be useless. Even if initiation of dash was not sped up I think that the fact that you can't stop a WD movement without a jump which has start up then it can also hurt you when approaching with it.

I don't think it has had extensive testing with what I've basically seen people not mention about it that were fairly obvious. This isn't Dustloop.

 

[shanus]

With the current hitstun? I don't even see that situation. If they a lower down you still have the advantage and either they dodge up and have vulnerable frames or have vulnerable frames then catch the ledge.

So then a single air dodge wouldn't be a problem for you?

I don't see how it couldn't serve the purpose of making this game better right now. I don't get why people are crying unless mostly they think it is stupid and don't like the potential it adds to the game.

You didnt get my example. I'm trying to edgeguard with an FF flub knee, the whole goal is to connect because generally im at the advantage and a BAD would make recovering harder for them. With an AD upwards it adds to their recovery possibilities and can lead to punishing me instead. This gives defense the advantage in this case, its another air defense option without real solid repercussions.

You keep saying how much potential it adds to the game without even considering another option. It takes 2 seconds to realize how damaging this is to the edgeguarding game as well as the aerial game.

I know you want wavedashing and I loved it in melee, but MAD is not good in brawl and HAD is not either. Plain and simple, no.

 

[petre]

You didnt get my example. I'm trying to edgeguard with an FF flub knee, the whole goal is to connect because generally im at the advantage and a BAD would make recovering harder for them. With an AD upwards it adds to their recovery possibilities and can lead to punishing me instead. This gives defense the advantage in this case, its another air defense option without real solid repercussions.

You keep saying how much potential it adds to the game without even considering another option. It takes 2 seconds to realize how damaging this is to the edgeguarding game as well as the aerial game.

I know you want wavedashing and I loved it in melee, but MAD is not good in brawl and HAD is not either. Plain and simple, no.

well then you just need to attack with better timing/mindgames. jump off the stage toward the person, bait their airdodge upwards, then double jump and knee. if you think they'll attack you as soon as you jump out, then you can jump out and airdodge in one spot, then fall into a knee. or you can jump out to bait an attack/airdodge but instead jump back and grab the ledge, and take it from there.

it really does add more options for both sides, not just the defensive side.

 

[Kix]

You didnt get my example. I'm trying to edgeguard with an FF flub knee, the whole goal is to connect because generally im at the advantage and a BAD would make recovering harder for them. With an AD upwards it adds to their recovery possibilities and can lead to punishing me instead. This gives defense the advantage in this case, its another air defense option without real solid repercussions.

You keep saying how much potential it adds to the game without even considering another option. It takes 2 seconds to realize how damaging this is to the edgeguarding game as well as the aerial game.

I know you want wavedashing and I loved it in melee, but MAD is not good in brawl and HAD is not either. Plain and simple, no.

This is still situational and I think you underestimate the lag of it after it is done. I don't think they could necessarily punish you either.

Did it take you 2 seconds to think of that example that doesn't even sound like it is the case?

Is it damaging to have more than one? In that case why not just have MAD? I don't really see counter points to what I'm arguing other than air changes that can be adjusted to and don't even sound like they would work like how they are being said based on my experience with MAD. So what if it didn't really do what you were talking about and you can't punish Falcon? What if based on how you time the knee you could punish them but you lose your edgeguard?

So no testing by the community? "I think it does this in this one situation, so regardless of anything else it sucks in this game."

 

[Finns7]

I wonder would it be possible to just map a Mad input to the L button and other for bad.

 

[petre]

So no testing by the community?

good luck with that.

 

[Kix]

I wonder would it be possible to just map a Mad input to the L button and other for bad.

Or make neutral do BAD and directional do MAD. That may have a potential problem because of the strength of air defense. I would try it out, though, I like the thought of it kind of.

 

[BEES]

Didn't I? It only resembles it with some similar uses that don't necessarily work the same and it has more into it. What would you want to add that's as much of a potential balancing agent that rewards precision, brings mindgames and a third aspect to mixup?

Fastfall canceling a jump? I also suggested lowering the friction to a dash cancel, and numerous other people have come up with spacing moves that are analogous to a wavedash but less powerful.

You're quite wrong when you say this avenue has not been explored. It has. It's too powerful; destroys the game balance. It would need significant nerfs.

As if this game plays much more like Melee because of this? The game is a sequel. Besides the fact that this WDing doesn't even work the same and in fact lost some applications while adding more, if it was the same you are playing a game that is a sequel to the game before it. That doesn't necessarily means something needs to be in it but you just didn't like something that was in the game before it. Do you just not like the similarities so even if it brings more good it shouldn't be in there?

There's clearly no point arguing with you. No matter what anyone says, no matter what imbalances it creates, you just want to have your party trick so you don't have to learn a new game.

We've repeatedly stressed that this tactic is too powerful for Brawl. Several characters have tilts and smashes with almost no initiation/ending lag, high priority, and high killing power. They're normally limited in their horizontal movement to prevent them from abusing this. With this restriction on horizontal movement lifted, the game becomes broken.

I think it would be the exact opposite. I can already see how it could be countered and how it wouldn't work in all situation. Also characters have different WD and I don't think running would be useless. Even if initiation of dash was not sped up I think that the fact that you can't stop a WD movement without a jump which has start up then it can also hurt you when approaching with it.

This is very misleading. The fact that you can cancel it with a jump means that you can cancel it with a wavedash. This is something they would have to fix before implementing it, along with nerfing the range on most characters' WDs and adding lag frames where they're needed. In the end you're looking at a monster code. That same RAM space could be used for five other things that add much more depth.

 

[Kix]

Fastfall canceling a jump? I also suggested adding friction to a dash cancel, and numerous other people have come up with spacing moves that are analogous to a wavedash but less powerful.

How fast would that be? How about coming from the air in different ways into an unblockable? I don't see anything where you start up a move unto active frames while you are moving forward or backward.

You're quite wrong when you say this avenue has not been explored. It has. It's too powerful; destroys the game balance. It would need significant nerfs.

Can you tell me how long the community used it standardly and who mentioned the unblockales or the delayed WD? Also the amazing arguments that seem to be coming out of the community make me think otherwise.

There's clearly no point arguing with you. No matter what anyone says, no matter what imbalances it creates, you just want to have your party trick so you don't have to learn a new game.

What imbalances does it create? You want to tell me that I'm wrong about what I've said it adds that you don't have otherwise? They seem pretty big to making gameplay less linear and more deep.

Why wouldn't I be learning the new game if I play it with more techniques?

We've repeatedly stressed that this tactic is too powerful for Brawl. Several characters have tilts and smashes with almost no initiation/ending lag, high priority, and high killing power. They're normally limited in their horizontal movement to prevent them from abusing this. With this restriction on horizontal movement lifted, the game becomes broken.

Are you sure a person moving backward and hitting them/through their hitbox or doing a delayed WD into them with invincibility to counter if used or timed properly or at the least getting in can't deal with this? Also it seems that some moves don't let you take full momentum. See again it is obviously to me there hasn't been enough testing on this.

This is very misleading. The fact that you can cancel it with a jump means that you can cancel it with a wavedash. This is something they would have to fix before implementing it, along with nerfing the range on most characters' WDs and adding lag frames where they're needed. In the end you're looking at a monster code. That same RAM space could be used for five other things that add much more depth.

So are there no vulnerable frames at all? Can someone not counter this at all?

The range can hurt them and jumping out of it would add a window where they would be vulnerable I think. So what was broken about WD?

 

[Dan_X]

It's funny that anyone would complain that HAD copies and pastes a mechanic from Melee which is clearly wrong. I mean, it's not like we've copied and pasted the mechanics of hitstun, lag cancelling, shield stun, lagless edges, no sweet-spotting, dash dancing, hitlagg, etc., right? Some of those copied enteties were exclusively from Melee, Smash 64, or both, and it was justified then. If anything, the fact that we're trying to modify MAD and improve it; HAD, should be good enough.

The complaints that some of you make are funny in that you complained about MAD for similar reasons. HAD is what it is because of you guys, to appease your complaints about MAD a Hybrid system was formed. Stop pretending that you know the effects HAD will have, because there's simply no proof. Only once the code has come out will we know the true pros and cons of a hybrid system.

 

[zxeon]

For the whole time there was space to use MAD no one was able to break it or prove that it destroyed game balance. Wtf additional friction to the DC? I think you just hate sliding in any form.

Just as a heads up once the air momentum code comes out characters are going to be sliding all over the place wen they land from jumps.

 

[shanus]

For the whole time there was space to use MAD no one was able to break it or prove that it destroyed game balance. Wtf additional friction to the DC? I think you just hate sliding in any form.

Just as a heads up once the air momentum code comes out characters are going to be sliding all over the place wen they land from jumps.

Not true, momentum is only transfer to the ground from a FF already. Go do a FF stomp as falcon down a ledge, huge slide. The air momentum code will be used to change your launch speed based on your dash speed, not your air speed to dash speed.

 

[shanus]

For the whole time there was space to use MAD no one was able to break it or prove that it destroyed game balance. Wtf additional friction to the DC? I think you just hate sliding in any form.

Just as a heads up once the air momentum code comes out characters are going to be sliding all over the place wen they land from jumps.

Also to the first point. Play a good MK or Pit with MAD on and come back to me. While HAD addresses this, I think the lag post DAD (directional air dodge) will need to be substantial so that it cannot be used to affect the air game and encourage almost strict use of effect for WDing.

 

[zxeon]

Not true, momentum is only transfer to the ground from a FF already. Go do a FF stomp as falcon down a ledge, huge slide. The air momentum code will be used to change your launch speed based on your dash speed, not your air speed to dash speed.

Then what will happen if you do a full speed empty SH?

 

[zxeon]

Also to the first point. Play a good MK or Pit with MAD on and come back to me. While HAD addresses this, I think the lag post DAD (directional air dodge) will need to be substantial so that it cannot be used to affect the air game and encourage almost strict use of effect for WDing.

There is already a huge amount of lag at the end so I don't think we have to worry about that. Furthermore what's wrong with HAD having more versatility?

 

[petre]

For the whole time there was space to use MAD no one was able to break it or prove that it destroyed game balance. Wtf additional friction to the DC? I think you just hate sliding in any form.

NOTHING is going to be proven broken in brawl+ yet, mostly cause we don't even have a finalized codeset yet, and we still probably wont be determining if something is game breaking until we have brawl+ tournaments.

 

[zxeon]

NOTHING is going to be proven broken in brawl+ yet, mostly cause we don't even have a finalized codeset yet, and we still probably wont be determining if something is game breaking until we have brawl+ tournaments.

Why are we even testing codes?

 

[shanus]

Then what will happen if you do a full speed empty SH?

Not sure, I guess we'll find out when we get the code

 

[petre]

Why are we even testing codes?

because its fun.

but seriously that statement was directed more towards this HAD debate, we wont be able to tell if its 'too good' for defense until we see how easy it is to punish or how easy it is to survive being edgeguarded and the such.