Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[leafgreen386]

I already combo in both Brawl and Melee. I already edgeguard in Brawl. Brawl+ doesn't make Brawl any less campier, but I deal with camping either way. I already got used to not being able to use any move at any time and found ways around it with shield canceling or just used aerials. Brawl+ to me without MAD just feels like Brawl on EZ mode with nothing much to expand on besides that. I'd lose interest in the project if things kept going the way they are.

I'm going to be honest. I stopped reading your post after this paragraph. I figured the rest of your post couldn't be anything but BS judging from what you had already said.

First off, you cannot combo in regular brawl. If you could before, then your opponent could probably have done something to get out and punish you for... well, existing. Brawl+ is not nearly as campy as regular brawl and opens up a ton of new offensive options. I don't know how you could possibly say this about the game and have actually played it before. The very HAD code you want will make the game more defensive and easier for the person being attacked.

Thank you for proving you have no right to participate in this discussion. I'll keep this in mind in the future so I know not to waste time countering your nonexistent points.

 

[.MaRiO]

@leafgreen
Can you list for me the specific reason why you don't want HAD
And lets just assume that we have the HAD code made as it is in the OP and lets say its uhh 30 lines long
What reasons would you have not to have it in.
Just summarize your points into easy to read bullets for us plox on the exact reasons why it would be bad for the game

 

[Blank Mauser]

I don't care about HAD, MAD is fine the way it is.

Which part of it wasn't true in melee? How it negatively effects zoning techniques?

Yes, and how it took away diversity.

 

[Finns7]

Idk blank that mad code isnt complete imo

It seemed as though every char had a diff wd in melee. In brawl with the current code they can seem very similair and be overpowered with how slippery the game is too start with, hell link already had a wdesque move with the pivot boost and craq walk

 

[Blank Mauser]

It depends. I can definitely feel a difference with Diddy and ZSS. They just stop and don't go sliding like others. Really I don't mind because its not as fast as Melee's wavedashing anyways, I just want it to cancel JC moves and because it makes for more natural techchasing.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

does everyone who supports wavedashing have leafgreen on ignore list or what? why do his points get ignored? someone dissect them one by one and provide us with a counter arguments. all you guys do is change the topic.

 

[Team Giza]

Yes, and how it took away diversity.

It did take away zoning techniques. Mind you I believe that it was a very good thing for melee but I do not believe it would be for brawl which has the zoning techniques worked into the game more. Now some characters did still have better ways around certain zoning techniques in brawl but regardless wavedashing still made it so all characters could more easily get around them. Wavedashing sidestepping or triangle jumping is an easy way through a lot of zoning techniques and it works for nearly all the characters. It also made it so some characters who had some unique ways of getting around zoning no longer have to use these methods anymore because these give them more powerful options overall.

In melee, wavedashing was almost necessary for certain aspects of the defense. Unlike in brawl, melee's shielddrop lasted quite a few frames and thus wavedashing was needed to get rid of some otherwise overpowered pressure tactics and approaches. Wavedashing allowed you too punish people a lot more effectively. However this is no longer necessary in brawl+ because the shielddrops in 1 frame. This basically makes a lot of the depth added by wavedashing already available in many ways without any button inputs.

 

[.MaRiO]

does everyone who supports wavedashing have leafgreen on ignore list or what? why do his points get ignored? someone dissect them one by one and provide us with a counter arguments. all you guys do is change the topic.

Summarize to me the key points he made and I will gladly make a counter argument

And can someone define "zoning techniques" for me is this just another word for spacing

 

[storm92]

Summarize to me the key points he made and I will gladly make a counter argument

And can someone define "zoning techniques" for me is this just another word for spacing

No summary. Just read.
vvvv

Because it will take valuable time and effort from PW to make this code, and its chance of actually getting included is very minuscule atm.


I think we've found a critical point in this discussion. Those against HAD are not going to be easily swayed, or swayed at all to be in favor of it. And we outnumber you. By a lot. I'd guess that no more than 1/4 to 1/3 of the community right now is in favor of HAD, and even that is a generous number. Face it. This won't get included in the final brawl+. All you're doing is wasting PW's time by making this code, and making the rest of us have to wait longer to get codes that will benefit everyone, and not just a small minority of brawl+ players.


If the point of HAD is not to enable WDing, then what is the point? The aerial game is very similar with it, given the fact you can still attack out of your airdodge, just with a few distinct buffs to defense. Recoveries essentially will always come down to drifting a short distance, then airdodge diagonally up and toward the stage, then drifting the rest of the way back to the stage. It will always be in your best interest to use the airdodge in your recovery, and will make recoveries even easier than they were before. At least with BAD you had to weigh your decisions on if it would be worth ADing or not when you're under attack, since you would be put in yet another compromised state if you did so. With HAD, you can just airdodge straight up through someone trying to spike you, and then recover, and then begin edgeguarding them. This doesn't help to make a more competitive brawl. It's removing depth from the ledge game. On the stage we'd have something even worse than vanilla brawl's defensiveness in airdodges. If you can airdodge an attack, you can put yourself in a position where you will be able to easily retaliate back, which is defeating the whole purpose of trying to balance the game in favor of offense.

Really, with all these negative effects on the airgame (at the most they're a neutral change, just making it different rather than better, but I think they're definitely leaning more towards hurting it than helping it), I don't see what point there could be for the inclusion of HAD except for enabling WDing.

Now that that's over with, I think you're missing one major thing here. WDing doesn't work in brawl the same way it works in melee. It just plain doesn't. Even if it were to have landlag, it still wouldn't work the same. So no. It is not adding something from melee at all. In fact, it's ruining something from melee. I think it works great... in melee. But not in brawl, and not even after giving it landlag.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Summarize to me the key points he made and I will gladly make a counter argument

uh...?

...no?

 

[Blank Mauser]

It did take away zoning techniques. Mind you I believe that it was a very good thing for melee but I do not believe it would be for brawl which has the zoning techniques worked into the game more. Now some characters did still have better ways around certain zoning techniques in brawl but regardless wavedashing still made it so all characters could more easily get around them. Wavedashing sidestepping or triangle jumping is an easy way through a lot of zoning techniques and it works for nearly all the characters. It also made it so some characters who had some unique ways of getting around zoning no longer have to use these methods anymore because these give them more powerful options overall.

In melee, wavedashing was almost necessary for certain aspects of the defense. Unlike in brawl, melee's shielddrop lasted quite a few frames and thus wavedashing was needed to get rid of some otherwise overpowered pressure tactics and approaches. Wavedashing allowed you too punish people a lot more effectively. However this is no longer necessary in brawl+ because the shielddrops in 1 frame. This basically makes a lot of the depth added by wavedashing already available in many ways without any button inputs.

I get what you mean but don't think it would be broken or overpowered. Spot dodging is already pretty annoying in Brawl, we just started predicting it. Being able to move and spot dodge is the same option but it has the same punishments. Triangle jumping may need some fixing, but its really just like fast falling an airdodge with BAD except more unexpected. You just have to start looking out for it like any other techniques in the game.

 

[kupo15]

Summarize to me the key points he made and I will gladly make a counter argument

And can someone define "zoning techniques" for me is this just another word for spacing

Maybe you should read it yourself and come up with a good counter argument instead of others spoon feeding you info to your counter argument.

EDIT: Oh look, storm was nice to compile leafs posts to make it easier you >.>

 

[leafgreen386]

@leafgreen
Can you list for me the specific reason why you don't want HAD
And lets just assume that we have the HAD code made as it is in the OP and lets say its uhh 30 lines long
What reasons would you have not to have it in.
Just summarize your points into easy to read bullets for us plox on the exact reasons why it would be bad for the game

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6461719&postcount=92

That should just about do it. Well, at least as far as the airgame is concerned. That post doesn't address wavedashing at all, which I also think hurts the game. Really, HAD is basically an excuse to put WDing into the game, and has negative repercussions on the airgame. But I don't need to go very deep into how WDing hurts the groundgame when put simply, dashdancing and DCing already do a lot to boost the groundgame. Even if WDing did help the groundgame, I contend that the damage HAD does to the airgame does not make it worthwhile. The points you're looking to counter right now are the points related to how HAD hurts the airgame. That should be more than enough to keep you busy.

I don't care about HAD, MAD is fine the way it is.

Your ineptitude never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Blank Mauser]

does everyone who supports wavedashing have leafgreen on ignore list or what? why do his points get ignored? someone dissect them one by one and provide us with a counter arguments. all you guys do is change the topic.

No one does that to any of my points. Like how MAD could add depth with new character specific AT's.

But y'know I don't know anything about Brawl or Brawl+ so lol. I'm just saying words.

 

[kupo15]

But y'know I don't know anything about Brawl or Brawl+ so lol. I'm just saying words.

Wow. Just leave...

Where did all of you ill informed B+ ppl that think they know what they are talking about come from?

 

[.MaRiO]

Leafgreen I thought we debated already and concluded that Had=Bad in the airgame
what happened

 

[Blank Mauser]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6461719&postcount=92
Your ineptitude never ceases to amaze me.

Unlike HAD, MAD wouldn't be so harmful to the ledge game. Or was that not your point? I'm sorry I'm kind of dense with sarcasm.

 

[Team Giza]

I get what you mean but don't think it would be broken or overpowered. Spot dodging is already pretty annoying in Brawl, we just started predicting it. Being able to move and spot dodge is the same option but it has the same punishments. Triangle jumping may need some fixing, but its really just like fast falling an airdodge with BAD except more unexpected. You just have to start looking out for it like any other techniques in the game.

Never really said it was overpowered or broken. I just said it lowered character diversity and weakened zoning techniques.

And can someone define "zoning techniques" for me is this just another word for spacing.

Its similar, it the space you are able to control at a time. Marth's forward air in melee was very good for zoning. Projectile game is also zoning. Zero Suit Samus has a very unique zoning game with her B moves and I would really not like to see this weakened. However wavedashing would increase the defensive maneuvers against such things and make easier punishment. Yes it gives this to many members of the cast and balances them out by homogenizing them in that way (the worst kind of balance). But it also nerfs characters whose tactics are heavily countered by the new functions.

 

[.MaRiO]

Quote:
Originally Posted by twiblets View Post
why so many haters? why can't we just try it out and if it doesn't work forget it
"Because it will take valuable time and effort from PW to make this code, and its chance of actually getting included is very minuscule atm." Leafgreen


Umm not buying this lol the only obstacle seems to be in politics not gameplay

"I think we've found a critical point in this discussion. Those against HAD are not going to be easily swayed, or swayed at all to be in favor of it. And we outnumber you. By a lot. I'd guess that no more than 1/4 to 1/3 of the community right now is in favor of HAD, and even that is a generous number. Face it. This won't get included in the final brawl+. All you're doing is wasting PW's time by making this code, and making the rest of us have to wait longer to get codes that will benefit everyone, and not just a small minority of brawl+ players. "

Just because your in the majority does not make you right lmao
Im pretty sure what you heard what the majority was saying when Brawl was just getting realized and ill leave it at that.

"If the point of HAD is not to enable WDing, then what is the point? The aerial game is very similar with it, given the fact you can still attack out of your airdodge, just with a few distinct buffs to defense. Recoveries essentially will always come down to drifting a short distance, then airdodge diagonally up and toward the stage, then drifting the rest of the way back to the stage. It will always be in your best interest to use the airdodge in your recovery, and will make recoveries even easier than they were before. At least with BAD you had to weigh your decisions on if it would be worth ADing or not when you're under attack, since you would be put in yet another compromised state if you did so. With HAD, you can just airdodge straight up through someone trying to spike you, and then recover, and then begin edgeguarding them. This doesn't help to make a more competitive brawl. It's removing depth from the ledge game. On the stage we'd have something even worse than vanilla brawl's defensiveness in airdodges. If you can airdodge an attack, you can put yourself in a position where you will be able to easily retaliate back, which is defeating the whole purpose of trying to balance the game in favor of offense. Really, with all these negative effects on the airgame (at the most they're a neutral change, just making it different rather than better, but I think they're definitely leaning more towards hurting it than helping it), I don't see what point there could be for the inclusion of HAD except for enabling WDing." Leafgreen

Yes the main reason we want HAD in the game is for the implementation of wavedash. That is the reason we would be using HAD instead of MAD

Lol I wish I knew how to use the stupid quote thing but I dont lol sry about that

 

[leafgreen386]

Leafgreen I thought we debated already and concluded that Had=Bad in the airgame
what happened

What happened was I said that at best HAD = BAD in the air. I hadn't even really given it that much thought yet. It's clear that supporters of HAD support it solely for the WD, so I figured I would debate you around that one single point.

Now, things are different. I've thought about what HAD will do to the airgame, and I think it will have a very very large negative impact.

edit: Just saw your post. K. I guess I'll be having a look at that post, now.

Unlike HAD, MAD wouldn't be so harmful to the ledge game. Or was that not your point? I'm sorry I'm kind of dense with sarcasm.

Psst... yes it would.

MAD would completely remove airdodging off the stage. With BAD, airdodging off the stage will still put you in a compromised position which your opponent can punish you from. MAD completely removes that option. Most people in this topic (both those for and against HAD) already recognize that MAD is bad for the game in its current form.

Also... that wasn't sarcasm. You have proved numerous times you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[kupo15]

highlight the text and press the quote button (speech bubble)

 

[Blank Mauser]

That cause you are crawling after you start the wavedash and that cancels the momentum. Geez are you new to this or something?

Never really said it was overpowered or broken. I just said it lowered character diversity and weakened zoning techniques.

Its similar, it the space you are able to control at a time. Marth's forward air in melee was very good for zoning. Projectile game is also zoning. Zero Suit Samus has a very unique zoning game with her B moves and I would really not like to see this weakened. However wavedashing would increase the defensive maneuvers against such things and make easier punishment. Yes it gives this to many members of the cast and balances them out by homogenizing them in that way (the worst kind of balance). But it also nerfs characters whose tactics are heavily countered by the new functions.

But these functions are already in Brawl with regular airdodge. Being able to move with them fluidly is just another option, whether or not its abusable is still questionable. You can still airdodge into the ground and spotdodge right away (Its even easier with faster falling) or just run up and dash cancel spot dodge too. Being able to do it while moving just adds to mindgames, and like anything else has to be watched out for. I don't think it'll take away any more diversity than what we already have in place.

And yes this is my first time getting into the MAD discussion.

 

[Blank Mauser]

MAD would completely remove airdodging off the stage. With BAD, airdodging off the stage will still put you in a compromised position which your opponent can punish you from. MAD completely removes that option. Most people in this topic (both those for and against HAD) already recognize that MAD is bad for the game in its current form.

Also... that wasn't sarcasm. You have proved numerous times you have no idea what you're talking about.

Pstt...Why are we whispering?

Mad doesn't completely remove airdodging off the stage, it just means you have to time it better. Since when with the new gravity will you have the chance to airdodge off the stage anyways? Only when you are above it, which is the same case with MAD. Besides that, it didn't ruin Melee.

And okay sir, i'm sure you're fed up with my ignorance by now but I didn't know it gave you the right to be annoying.

 

[.MaRiO]

So you looked it over and now HAD is bad for the airgame? hmmmm
I can see how MAD can be arguing for being bad for the airgame, but HAD is basically the same as BAD. And seeing how the code is not even made yet I would like to see which variation of HAD would be worse and which would be best seeing how there are many different ways that HAD can be implemented. If HAD were to be implemented how would you like it to be.
1 directional airdodge then brawl airdodge after
1 direction airdodge then you cant do anymore airdodge but you can do other moves
ETC etc etc

 

[leafgreen386]

Umm not buying this lol the only obstacle seems to be in politics not gameplay

That post was in response to "why don't we at least try it." We don't "just try it" because we already know that it probably won't get included with where we are right now and it would be a waste of PW's time. Essentially, it was answering why we're even having this debate in the first place.

Just because your in the majority does not make you right lmao
Im pretty sure what you heard what the majority was saying when Brawl was just getting realized and ill leave it at that.

No. But the whole theory behind American politics is that the majority is usually right. When the vast majority of brawl+ers think that HAD would be bad for the game, there's a very good chance we're right. I don't even get what you're talking about with your second sentence. The whole point of that paragraph was highlighting one of the biggest reasons why not to have this code made - the majority just isn't going to go with it.

Yes the main reason we want HAD in the game is for the implementation of wavedash. That is the reason we would be using HAD instead of MAD

You call that a response? Don't make me laugh. Next time why don't you try actually answering my points with counterarguments.

So you looked it over and now HAD is bad for the airgame? hmmmm
I can see how MAD can be arguing for being bad for the airgame, but HAD is basically the same as BAD. And seeing how the code is not even made yet I would like to see which variation of HAD would be worse and which would be best seeing how there are many different ways that HAD can be implemented. If HAD were to be implemented how would you like it to be.
1 directional airdodge then brawl airdodge after
1 direction airdodge then you cant do anymore airdodge but you can do other moves
ETC etc etc

lol

HAD is not the same as BAD. I think I proved this plenty well in my post.

Currently, the way most people see HAD is the first option, although the second option you listed also screws up the airgame in a lot of the same ways as the first option does. There's just no good way to go about it. HAD is bad for the game no matter how you slice it.

Mad doesn't completely remove airdodging off the stage, it just means you have to time it better. Since when with the new gravity will you have the chance to airdodge off the stage anyways? Only when you are above it, which is the same case with MAD. Besides that, it didn't ruin Melee.

With BAD you can airdodge at any time it would not kill you. This doesn't have to be just above the stage. It could be nearly level with the stage, too. With MAD, you will only be able to airdodge offstage when you are high above the stage and you would be able to drift onto the stage. Otherwise you would just get easily edgehogged.

In melee, people only really ever airodoged offstage when they were right next to the ledge allowing them to land on either the stage or for some characters without an upB (ie. jiggs and yoshi) as a last ditch effort to get to the ledge. And of course it didn't ruin melee, but... brawl+ is not melee.

 

[.MaRiO]

No. But the whole theory behind American politics is that the majority is usually right. When the vast majority of brawl+ers think that HAD would be bad for the game, there's a very good chance we're right. I don't even get what you're talking about with your second sentence. The whole point of that paragraph was highlighting one of the biggest reasons why not to have this code made - the majority just isn't going to go with it.


You call that a response? Don't make me laugh. Next time why don't you try actually answering my points with counterarguments.

Ok lmao now we got a issue here and it has nothing to do with Brawl lmao The majority is always WRONG on ANYTHING lmao if you want to debate we can but that doesnt even have to do with brawl
And I also have NO IDEA WHAT YOUR ARE TALKING ABOUT LOL
You are saying that HAD is hurting the airgame HOW????
what points are you trying to make I am not understanding your post please dumb it down for me since im so stupid lmao
Just summarize your points into bullets so they can be easily understood and countered.

 

[Blank Mauser]

That post was in response to "why don't we at least try it." We don't "just try it" because we already know that it probably won't get included with where we are right now and it would be a waste of PW's time. Essentially, it was answering why we're even having this debate in the first place.


No. But the whole theory behind American politics is that the majority is usually right. When the vast majority of brawl+ers think that HAD would be bad for the game, there's a very good chance we're right. I don't even get what you're talking about with your second sentence. The whole point of that paragraph was highlighting one of the biggest reasons why not to have this code made - the majority just isn't going to go with it.


You call that a response? Don't make me laugh. Next time why don't you try actually answering my points with counterarguments.


lol

HAD is not the same as BAD. I think I proved this plenty well in my post.

Currently, the way most people see HAD is the first option, although the second option you listed also screws up the airgame in a lot of the same ways as the first option does. There's just no good way to go about it. HAD is bad for the game no matter how you slice it.


With BAD you can airdodge at any time it would not kill you. This doesn't have to be just above the stage. It could be nearly level with the stage, too. With MAD, you will only be able to airdodge offstage when you are high above the stage and you would be able to drift onto the stage. Otherwise you would just get easily edgehogged.

In melee, people only really ever airodoged offstage when they were right next to the ledge allowing them to land on either the stage or for some characters without an upB (ie. jiggs and yoshi) as a last ditch effort to get to the ledge. And of course it didn't ruin melee, but... brawl+ is not melee.

How is it bad then that its riskier to airdodge off the stage considering Brawl has longer sweetspot range for its ledges, the airdodge leaves you vulnerable and there are hardly ever times you will be above the stage anyways? What exactly does MAD ruin if we want good edgeguarding to happen?

 

[petre]

is it possible to have a MAD where you DON'T go into freefall after using it (but don't get more air dodges like HAD)? i still feel like the HAD adds too many defensive options. BAD was already pretty amazing at dodging everything.

if it was possible then you wouldn't have to worry about accidentally air dodging to your death, and the people who want wavedashing would have that, and the defensive game overall would be slightly nerfed; more rewarding to the offensive player.

 

[storm92]

How is it bad then that its riskier to airdodge off the stage considering Brawl has longer sweetspot range for its ledges, the airdodge leaves you vulnerable and there are hardly ever times you will be above the stage anyways? What exactly does MAD ruin if we want good edgeguarding to happen?

We have better edgeguarding already.
It's called No ASL, and it lets us actually intercept recoveries.
MAD makes it literally impossible to AD off the stage except when above it or right next to it. BAD makes it so it's a risk to AD because it sets you and your opponent up for edgeguarding opportunities, as leaf earlier outlined.

 

[Blank Mauser]

We have better edgeguarding already.
It's called No ASL, and it lets us actually intercept recoveries.
MAD makes it literally impossible to AD off the stage except when above it or right next to it. BAD makes it so it's a risk to AD because it sets you and your opponent up for edgeguarding opportunities, as leaf earlier outlined.

So then both airdodges are risky, why is MAD so bad? What happened in Melee that makes it so much more worth keeping airdodges off the stage in Brawl?

 

[leafgreen386]

Ok lmao now we got a issue here and it has nothing to do with Brawl lmao The majority is always WRONG on ANYTHING lmao if you want to debate we can but that doesnt even have to do with brawl
And I also have NO IDEA WHAT YOUR ARE TALKING ABOUT LOL
You are saying that HAD is hurting the airgame HOW????
what points are you trying to make I am not understanding your post please dumb it down for me since im so stupid lmao
Just summarize your points into bullets so they can be easily understood and countered.

I... I might be speechless. This post just defies comprehension. "Just summarize your points into bullets so they can be easily understood and countered?" ARE YOU FRICKING KIDDING ME!? If you don't understand my points, then quite frankly, I don't care to make them any easier for you to understand. If you cannot comprehend my points, then you don't deserve a say on the matter. Why should I have to dumb down what I'm saying for you? This is not that complicated of a matter. Just... read it... and reply. This is not that hard.

The following is what I had to say about the HAD hurting the airgame, including the quote that I was responding to.

To those of you who suggest a code that creates a wavedash like effect without the Melee AD... I don't see the point. This won't facilitate as many great options as HAD will. The point of had is not simple wavedashing, it's just a perk.

If the point of HAD is not to enable WDing, then what is the point? The aerial game is very similar with it, given the fact you can still attack out of your airdodge, just with a few distinct buffs to defense. Recoveries essentially will always come down to drifting a short distance, then airdodge diagonally up and toward the stage, then drifting the rest of the way back to the stage. It will always be in your best interest to use the airdodge in your recovery, and will make recoveries even easier than they were before. At least with BAD you had to weigh your decisions on if it would be worth ADing or not when you're under attack, since you would be put in yet another compromised state if you did so. With HAD, you can just airdodge straight up through someone trying to spike you, and then recover, and then begin edgeguarding them. This doesn't help to make a more competitive brawl. It's removing depth from the ledge game. On the stage we'd have something even worse than vanilla brawl's defensiveness in airdodges. If you can airdodge an attack, you can put yourself in a position where you will be able to easily retaliate back, which is defeating the whole purpose of trying to balance the game in favor of offense.

Really, with all these negative effects on the airgame (at the most they're a neutral change, just making it different rather than better, but I think they're definitely leaning more towards hurting it than helping it), I don't see what point there could be for the inclusion of HAD except for enabling WDing.

How is it bad then that its riskier to airdodge off the stage considering Brawl has longer sweetspot range for its ledges, the airdodge leaves you vulnerable and there are hardly ever times you will be above the stage anyways? What exactly does MAD ruin if we want good edgeguarding to happen?

Because it's not riskier to airdodge offstage. It's downright stupid. And it is suicide. We don't want it to be suicide to airdodge offstage and we don't want the airdodging player to be put into an advantageous position. MAD will do the former and HAD the latter. BAD is just fine offstage as it is.

is it possible to have a MAD where you DON'T go into freefall after using it (but don't get more air dodges like HAD)? i still feel like the HAD adds too many defensive options. BAD was already pretty amazing at dodging everything.

if it was possible then you wouldn't have to worry about accidentally air dodging to your death, and the people who want wavedashing would have that, and the defensive game overall would be slightly nerfed; more rewarding to the offensive player.

Yes, it's possible, but it's just as bad as HAD is. A lot of the reason why HAD is bad for the airgame is because it enables you to attack out of a directional airdodge. Being able to airdodge up and/or to the side makes it too easy for the airdodging player to make a counterattack.

 

[Blank Mauser]

MAD is in no way suicide. At most this might buff moves like Aether spikes and such but no way that MAD isn't applicable off-stage. Just be smart and don't use it haphazardly. Melee players worked around it and so can Brawl+ players.

Both airdodges can give you the advantage off the stage if you use them smartly. If this is the only thing keeping MAD so uncool then it seems pretty minor.

 

[leafgreen386]

MAD is in no way suicide. At most this might buff moves like Aether spikes and such but no way that MAD isn't applicable off-stage. Just be smart and don't use it haphazardly. Melee players worked around it and so can Brawl+ players.

Both airdodges can give you the advantage off the stage if you use them smartly. If this is the only thing keeping MAD so uncool then it seems pretty minor.

It has very minimal application offstage. It also had very minimal application offstage in melee. Just stop arguing about MAD. Even the HAD supporters don't want it.

 

[Finns7]

Not if you have a tether storm


Blank that code has exploits its not finished. The had I had in mind would be for 1 melee and after that no more airdodges. Or maybe only have bad in situations when you have only 1 jump left......

If the Had has 1 melee and the rest brawl it would be kinda >_> to me, I guess I will see.

There is no question that the reason why people want Had is because of the wding. I think it would be a great addition if it gets cleaned up.

 

[.MaRiO]

The following is what I had to say about the HAD hurting the airgame, including the quote that I was responding to.


If the point of HAD is not to enable WDing, then what is the point? The aerial game is very similar with it, given the fact you can still attack out of your airdodge, just with a few distinct buffs to defense. Recoveries essentially will always come down to drifting a short distance, then airdodge diagonally up and toward the stage, then drifting the rest of the way back to the stage. It will always be in your best interest to use the airdodge in your recovery, and will make recoveries even easier than they were before. At least with BAD you had to weigh your decisions on if it would be worth ADing or not when you're under attack, since you would be put in yet another compromised state if you did so. With HAD, you can just airdodge straight up through someone trying to spike you, and then recover, and then begin edgeguarding them. This doesn't help to make a more competitive brawl. It's removing depth from the ledge game. On the stage we'd have something even worse than vanilla brawl's defensiveness in airdodges. If you can airdodge an attack, you can put yourself in a position where you will be able to easily retaliate back, which is defeating the whole purpose of trying to balance the game in favor of offense.

Really, with all these negative effects on the airgame (at the most they're a neutral change, just making it different rather than better, but I think they're definitely leaning more towards hurting it than helping it), I don't see what point there could be for the inclusion of HAD except for enabling WDing.


Because it's not riskier to airdodge offstage. It's downright stupid. And it is suicide. We don't want it to be suicide to airdodge offstage and we don't want the airdodging player to be put into an advantageous position. MAD will do the former and HAD the latter. BAD is just fine offstage as it is.


Yes, it's possible, but it's just as bad as HAD is. A lot of the reason why HAD is bad for the airgame is because it enables you to attack out of a directional airdodge. Being able to airdodge up and/or to the side makes it too easy for the airdodging player to make a counterattack.

First I would argue the fact that this buff in the ledge game in terms of the directional airdodge is greatly needed for alot of characters. It makes it more fair in the fact that some characters have absolutely no trouble in getting back to the ledge and for those characters the additional buff in the ledge game is not really noticed and does not make much of a difference. But there are alot of character that would LOVE to have this additional boost and it makes them play on a more level playing field. All of the things you stated seem to make the ledge game more interesting and make it so there are even more mind games involved when trying to recover onto the ledge. And to say "This doesn't help to make a more competitive brawl. " is ridiculous lmao it is actually the exact opposite.
You also stated that the air game between HAD and BAD is very similar yet you also say that HAD has a very "negative" impact on the air game and I cant possible seeing it having that much of an impact. If anything it give you more options in the Air.

"On the stage we'd have something even worse than vanilla brawl's defensiveness in airdodges. If you can airdodge an attack, you can put yourself in a position where you will be able to easily retaliate back, which is defeating the whole purpose of trying to balance the game in favor of offense. "
Ok lol you say we have something even worse here with directional airdodge. lol This does not defeat the whole purpose of trying to balance the game between offense and defense. All of the codes we have been adding so far were to improve offenise and this is a great defensive and give you another option and allows you to protect yourself and even turn the tables on an offensive player. A nice addition. And as you already know anything BAD can do can be done with HAD as well and I have no idea how you are seeing all of these things as "Negative" lol
When it comes to Airgame like you stated (kind of) BAD=HAD when it comes to the air game but if anything it ADDS a little more but I mean it is really not noticed.

 

[Eaode]

Um, Had has negative effects on the airgame, WD has negative effects on the ground game. HAD has negative effects on the edgegame. MAD prohibits AD'ing off stage.

Why do we want any of them again? Oh yeah because some people feel like Wavedashing.

EDIT: oh my god this is ridiculous. Yes HAD is BAD with added stuff. This stuff does not have a positive effect on the game. you just said we should give a big buff to defense when we are trying to buff offense to create a balance....

 

[Wave⁂]

Let's just replace the airdodge function with with automatic suicide. Then we won't have to argue.

 

[.MaRiO]

Not if you have a tether storm


Blank that code has exploits its not finished. The had I had in mind would be for 1 melee and after that no more airdodges. Or maybe only have bad in situations when you have only 1 jump left......

If the Had has 1 melee and the rest brawl it would be kinda >_> to me, I guess I will see.

There is no question that the reason why people want Had is because of the wding. I think it would be a great addition if it gets cleaned up.

I think 1 Melee and the rest Brawl is a compromise lol since people like the brawl airdodge
And really these "negatives" people are talking about are pretty ridiculous lmao

 

[Blank Mauser]

Um, Had has negative effects on the airgame, WD has negative effects on the ground game. HAD has negative effects on the edgegame. MAD prohibits AD'ing off stage.

Why do we want any of them again? Oh yeah because some people feel like Wavedashing.

EDIT: oh my god this is ridiculous. Yes HAD is BAD with added stuff. This stuff does not have a positive effect on the game. you just said we should give a big buff to defense when we are trying to buff offense to create a balance....

Thats cold. =\ I thought adding originality and depth was a good point but whatever.

HAD isn't going to be legit at this point. The problem is you can use the HAD as soon as you get out of hitstun. This stops your momentum and theres no punishment. MAD would be better since you can't just fast fall at 1.25x the rate to safety with BAD afterwards.

 

[storm92]

I think 1 Melee and the rest Brawl is a compromise lol since people like the brawl airdodge
And really these "negatives" people are talking about are pretty ridiculous lmao

It's not a compromise, f#@! compromises.
The way we've got things done around here have been by debating, and so far I'm pretty sure everyone can see the WD is not exactly winning.
They're not ridiculous, you just have no retort.