Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[Dan_X]

Funny, you still failed to answer any of the points that I brought up.
And I quote:

This is because I replied using my iTouch, I didn't feel like wasting time typing forever on it.

Of all of the problems that MAD had (Overpowered Wavedashing, unnatural feel, etc.) you haven't addressed specifically how things are going to work. Are all characters going to have Melee-Luigiesque wavedashes still? What about the amount of lines this is going to take? Melee airdodge took 88 lines, and this code seems to be even more complex, especially if the questions that I'm raising are going to be dealt with in a balanced manner.
Reply With Quote

I've mentioned how these things will be dealt with. Wavedashes will have a landing lag to balance them, so that there's risk involved. You can't just mindless wavedash because you'll surely get punished. You won't be able to do stackable wavedashes.

The "unnatural feel" is bs in my opinion. I don't see what feels odd about it, it works really well in Brawl, doesn't portray as a glitch or hack, it just works. YOu could say that many of the things that we're adding are not "natural" as they are not intended. Adding HAD is no different. What if I wanted to argue that hitstun feels unnatural because I can't move in the air because I'm trapped in some combo?

There could be a way of limiting the slide distance, I'm waiting for a PM from Phantom Wings, either way, a shortened wavedash would be nice, but not one that's so short that the benefit is lost.

The majority of the reason that the first MAD code took so many lines is because he had to create an engine within the code that would make it so you couldn't do anything after the AD. He stated that he'd be able to remove a TON of junk from this code... He could than work on fixing wavedashing.

---

Some of you, especially Giza, act as though I went into this without any thought whatsoever. The thought behind HAD is what was propose a while back, I'm just making it happen. I've thought quite a bit on how to make sure it's an improvement over the MAD code, and what changes would have to be done. Please, it's not like I just foolishly asked for something without know what I was doing.

---

Think of dash dancing and crouch canceling, both = a similar approach for all characters. Most characters use dash dancing in a similar way, with similar tactics. It does, in its own way homogenize them. Wavedashing will have the same effect. There would be similarities but still each character would utilize it differently, and fine different levels of usefulness.

Kupo, in no way is this a "fake" added depth. It's just foolish to say that because it adds another entirely viable movement option, another skill to master.

 

[.MaRiO]

Umm no. Don't be so ignorant to say that anyone against WDing in brawl is not capable of being competitive or w.e. I am competitive and I am against wavedashing in brawl because it does not fit brawl and I think it is not good for the game and I know there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. Its fake depth and it will only make the game more unbalanced i think. If you look at melee, some characters benefited from wavedashing more than others which allowed them to skyrocket to the top. (see: fox/falco)

but in any case, HAD should not even be requested until the game is fixed with its basic mechanics

Fake Depth? How?
The reason fox and falco are top tier is cuz of wavedash?? *facepalm*


and lol at the I know there is nothing I can say to convice you otherwise comment.
I am always up for a debate about anything and always try to be as open minded as possible. You prove to me that its fake depth like you say and i got no problem dropping HAD. Like I said before anything that makes the game have the most depth should be included into the final code set regardless of how much people are scared of it.

 

[kupo15]

Fake Depth? How?
The reason fox and falco are top tier is cuz of wavedash?? *facepalm*


and lol at the I know there is nothing I can say to convice you otherwise comment.
I am always up for a debate about anything and always try to be as open minded as possible. You prove to me that its fake depth like you say and i got no problem dropping HAD. Like I said before anything that makes the game have the most depth should be included into the final code set regardless of how much people are scared of it.

Ummm waveshineing???? DUH??? Get rid of waveshining and see where Fox goes. You should read the other threads about this subject because I for one am sick of debating this topic

 

[.MaRiO]

Ummm waveshineing???? DUH??? You should read the other threads about this subject because I for one am sick of debating this topic

lol this is the wavedash = autowin arguement lmao
You still didnt anwser the fake depth arguement you had going
And no waveshining is not the sole reason fox and falco are top tier lol
wavedash is not as good as you think

 

[Team Giza]

Some of you, especially Giza, act as though I went into this without any thought whatsoever. The thought behind HAD is what was propose a while back, I'm just making it happen. I've thought quite a bit on how to make sure it's an improvement over the MAD code, and what changes would have to be done. Please, it's not like I just foolishly asked for something without know what I was doing.

You may have though the basic idea out and some of the applications. I know that you are trying to make improvements from the problems with the MAD code. I never said otherwise. The issue you didn't discuss it with the rest of the community on ways to come to somewhat of a consensus on the best way to approach the matter and take the possibility of other options into account. That is the issue I have with your approach to the manner. When we could have discussed all of it and came up with better methods on how to approach the code and explain it to PW.

I do have issues with adding this system but I'm willing to test it and consider it. However, I highly doubt that its going to be able to be made in a way that will appease my hunger for diversity and balance as well as trying to save room for a few character specific balances. Even as a member of group A, I understand that we must also try to make this game appeal to to group C. I feel we can come up with much better uses for the line space that HAD will take up that would appeal to more players and add more balance and diversity.

 

[twiblets]

why so many haters? why can't we just try it out and if it doesn't work forget it

 

[BEES]

I'd prefer a code that reduces friction on a dash cancel, to give it some of the purposes a wavedash would have. Otherwise I'm against any implementation of Melee-style airdodging.

 

[Dan_X]

I'd prefer a code that reduces friction on a dash cancel, to give it some of the purposes a wavedash would have. Otherwise I'm against any implementation of Melee-style airdodging.

Why? Because it's directionally influenced? What's the big deal with a dodge that you can input a direction? It doesn't seem that daunting to me. Plus, you wouldn't be vulnerable after dodging.

Giza, the reason I didn't approach the community with regards to HAD is because I thought peoples sentiments on said code were the same as they have been. I wasn't expecting so many haters. Either way, I thought I was going ahead with what the community wanted, at least those who wanted HAD. For those who like MAD, who are interested in HAD, this code is going to be great. However, this code still isn't sold to the haters, and will never be sold to them. If I was to ask what to do with a HAD code they'd have said "don't do-- we don't need / want it." I did what I did because that's what those in favor of MAD / HAD came to a while back. I thought I was in agreement with more people. Sorry haters...

To those of you who suggest a code that creates a wavedash like effect without the Melee AD... I don't see the point. This won't facilitate as many great options as HAD will. The point of had is not simple wavedashing, it's just a perk.

 

[shadowtroop]

This isn't breaking anyone if everyone can quad-jump after the first AD.


I support, if not that long of a code.

 

[Team Giza]

Giza, the reason I didn't approach the community with regards to HAD is because I thought peoples sentiments on said code were the same as they have been. I wasn't expecting so many haters.

Well maybe you should stop assuming so much.

To those of you who suggest a code that creates a wavedash like effect without the Melee AD... I don't see the point. This won't facilitate as many great options as HAD will. The point of had is not simple wavedashing, it's just a perk.

Either way I don't like it. Wavedashing negatively effects zoning techniques which would take out an awful lot of the depth and diversity in this game. I would actually be more in favor of HAD, even if it would look and feel extremely bizarre for some characters, if it was made so that wavedashing was impossible (I don't mind wavelanding). I'm not for the universal slaughter of zoning techniques which was one of the only aspects I found to be one of the only redeeming aspects of normal brawl.

 

[storm92]

Fake Depth? How?
The reason fox and falco are top tier is cuz of wavedash?? *facepalm*


and lol at the I know there is nothing I can say to convice you otherwise comment.
I am always up for a debate about anything and always try to be as open minded as possible. You prove to me that its fake depth like you say and i got no problem dropping HAD. Like I said before anything that makes the game have the most depth should be included into the final code set regardless of how much people are scared of it.

We are not scared of it, god da--.
We're not scared of depth, of wavedashing, or directional air dodges.

As we've said in almost every Brawl+ thread, we don't support WD in Brawl. It does homogenize movement, and unlike what many said, it is the best movement option in this game. It can be faster for almost all chars than their dashes, you can do any move directly afterwards, and is by far the safest movement technique possible.

 

[leafgreen386]

why so many haters? why can't we just try it out and if it doesn't work forget it

Because it will take valuable time and effort from PW to make this code, and its chance of actually getting included is very minuscule atm.

However, this code still isn't sold to the haters, and will never be sold to them.

I think we've found a critical point in this discussion. Those against HAD are not going to be easily swayed, or swayed at all to be in favor of it. And we outnumber you. By a lot. I'd guess that no more than 1/4 to 1/3 of the community right now is in favor of HAD, and even that is a generous number. Face it. This won't get included in the final brawl+. All you're doing is wasting PW's time by making this code, and making the rest of us have to wait longer to get codes that will benefit everyone, and not just a small minority of brawl+ players.

To those of you who suggest a code that creates a wavedash like effect without the Melee AD... I don't see the point. This won't facilitate as many great options as HAD will. The point of had is not simple wavedashing, it's just a perk.

If the point of HAD is not to enable WDing, then what is the point? The aerial game is very similar with it, given the fact you can still attack out of your airdodge, just with a few distinct buffs to defense. Recoveries essentially will always come down to drifting a short distance, then airdodge diagonally up and toward the stage, then drifting the rest of the way back to the stage. It will always be in your best interest to use the airdodge in your recovery, and will make recoveries even easier than they were before. At least with BAD you had to weigh your decisions on if it would be worth ADing or not when you're under attack, since you would be put in yet another compromised state if you did so. With HAD, you can just airdodge straight up through someone trying to spike you, and then recover, and then begin edgeguarding them. This doesn't help to make a more competitive brawl. It's removing depth from the ledge game. On the stage we'd have something even worse than vanilla brawl's defensiveness in airdodges. If you can airdodge an attack, you can put yourself in a position where you will be able to easily retaliate back, which is defeating the whole purpose of trying to balance the game in favor of offense.

Really, with all these negative effects on the airgame (at the most they're a neutral change, just making it different rather than better, but I think they're definitely leaning more towards hurting it than helping it), I don't see what point there could be for the inclusion of HAD except for enabling WDing.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think wavedash adds more than it takes away. You can't airdodge out of moves that don't give hitstun like Aether or Bowser's Down-B without risking something.

Overall its really not breaking anything that crouch canceling/dash dancing don't already do, and the things it does add are just cool technical little buffs that make the game more fun and give neat options for people to get creative with. Canceling momentum on footstools and other moves, and being able to waveland on platforms for a faster way to regain your jump both add more depth. So do character specific AT's (Yee Wavespindashing).

Also with there being an increase in fast fall the regular airdodge is buffed way too much to the point where you're safe if you fall from like 3 character's height.

 

[Eaode]

including HAD only serves to make the game more like Melee. Brawl+ is fine already, adding Wavedashing sems so out of place and artificial that I can't understand why you'd want it if you weren't trying to make Melee. Seriously, we have DD, and we have Dashcanceling. Wavedashing is completely unnecessary at this point. COMPLETELY. And it just adds so many lines, it's awkward, and it will alienate potential Brawl+ers.

Really, As a huge advocate of Melee, I say leave WD where it belongs. Brawl+ doesn't need it, and there's no point in including it.


Te only positive I see in HAD is Wavelanding, and that's a very small thing, I just personally enjoy being able to stop on a platform after moving upwards. But I'm not prepared to include the silly MAD just to do that.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Wavedashing adds more to Brawl+ on its own, in ways that don't compare to Melee. And I honestly don't care if I am just trying to make it more like Melee, its more fun to me that way and I support experimenting with it to see how people can make it effective.

Doesn't feel right to waste a long code that still has room for improvement without giving it a chance. And that means considering everything it does without just generalizing it into "imitating Melee" because there is more it has to offer than that alone.

 

[Eaode]

But it's completely artificial. You might as well do some other crazy **** like make all Upsmashes jump-cancelable. WD isn't in Brawl at all, and it's implementation feels cheap, tacked on, and overall just unnatural. Anything you can apply WD to do you can do with DD + Dashcancel, except not as broken as WD. There's no need for it beside some irrational need to add something completely new to this game to imitate Melee.

 

[.MaRiO]

We are not scared of it, god da--.
We're not scared of depth, of wavedashing, or directional air dodges.

As we've said in almost every Brawl+ thread, we don't support WD in Brawl. It does homogenize movement, and unlike what many said, it is the best movement option in this game. It can be faster for almost all chars than their dashes, you can do any move directly afterwards, and is by far the safest movement technique possible.

Then you would be in favor of it once the changes stated in the OP are addressed?
And btw I can use this homogenize argument on so many other things lol.
Dash dance + dash cancel "homogenizes movement" the same way you claim WD does and I dont see you having a problem with that lol. When it comes to dash dance and dash cancel it adds depth but when it comes to wavedash it ethier adds "fake" depth or it is to "foreign" to the mechanics of brawl lol Its the same thing

 

[Blank Mauser]

But it's completely artificial. You might as well do some other crazy **** like make all Upsmashes jump-cancelable. WD isn't in Brawl at all, and it's implementation feels cheap, tacked on, and overall just unnatural. Anything you can apply WD to do you can do with DD + Dashcancel, except not as broken as WD. There's no need for it beside some irrational need to add something completely new to this game to imitate Melee.

You can't cancel Sonic's Spindashes or Pika's QAC. You can't cancel upwards momentum with a platform or waveland. As far as it being artificial its kind of subjective. And even though we could do crazy stuff like JC Usmashes wavedashing is something that we're familiar with and if we're going to make Brawl+ a fun game without breaking it its a nice start.

Its just that all I see from Brawl+ so far is Brawl except with a few more guaranteed follow-ups, and techchase kills. I don't want that because I already can combo people in Brawl without hacks and I find that rewarding already. Nerfing the defensive options with shield stun makes it feel gimped to me the same way some people think WD'ing feels artificial to them.

When I started experimenting with Melee AD I thought this was a chance to make Brawl's metagame into something different with elements from all the games. A new chance to experiment with things besides just what move best links to a Falcon's knee or something. A slight new area of tech skill even, and just more creative options in general. Why give up on the chance to add more to the game just because it was made to imitate Melee? Which isn't even that bad a thing in the first place.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

leafgreen won this argument. stop ignoring what he's saying and read it.

 

[storm92]

You can't cancel Sonic's Spindashes or Pika's QAC. You can't cancel upwards momentum with a platform or waveland. As far as it being artificial its kind of subjective. And even though we could do crazy stuff like JC Usmashes wavedashing is something that we're familiar with and if we're going to make Brawl+ a fun game without breaking it its a nice start.

Its just that all I see from Brawl+ so far is Brawl except with a few more guaranteed follow-ups, and techchase kills. I don't want that because I already can combo people in Brawl without hacks and I find that rewarding already. Nerfing the defensive options with shield stun makes it feel gimped to me the same way some people think WD'ing feels artificial to them.

When I started experimenting with Melee AD I thought this was a chance to make Brawl's metagame into something different with elements from all the games. A new chance to experiment with things besides just what move best links to a Falcon's knee or something. A slight new area of tech skill even, and just more creative options in general. Why give up on the chance to add more to the game just because it was made to imitate Melee? Which isn't even that bad a thing in the first place.

Oh dear, what does Brawl+ have different?

-Better tech chase--> You said this
-More follow-ups--> You said this
-Increased edgeguarding game
-Faster overall gameplay
-Less campiness, more offensive nature
-Better balance amongst characters
-Less interrupted gameplay (hitlag)
-Better chance for skill to show, in combos, DI, etc.
-More movement options without a completely foreign mechanic
-More chances to kill at lower percentages
-Less reliance on chaining/infinites

Also, you cannot combo people in vB. There are very few legit combos, and most you pull off are in fact not combos and can be escaped.

 

[Eaode]

Do you PLAY Brawl+? If you can't see how drastically the game is improved even w/o MAD, then you must be blind or something. The whole game is different, it feels how it should, and MAD is just another unnecessary option (when we have some already that do the same thing and are more natural) that takes lots of lines and only serves to bring Melee nostalgia.

If you guys want Brawl+ to play almost exactly like Melee, maybe you should play melee in addition to Brawl+. Seriously, there is no need for MAD at all.

 

[kupo15]

Well maybe you should stop assuming so much.

Either way I don't like it. Wavedashing negatively effects zoning techniques which would take out an awful lot of the depth and diversity in this game. I would actually be more in favor of HAD, even if it would look and feel extremely bizarre for some characters, if it was made so that wavedashing was impossible (I don't mind wavelanding). I'm not for the universal slaughter of zoning techniques which was one of the only aspects I found to be one of the only redeeming aspects of normal brawl.

Because it will take valuable time and effort from PW to make this code, and its chance of actually getting included is very minuscule atm.


I think we've found a critical point in this discussion. Those against HAD are not going to be easily swayed, or swayed at all to be in favor of it. And we outnumber you. By a lot. I'd guess that no more than 1/4 to 1/3 of the community right now is in favor of HAD, and even that is a generous number. Face it. This won't get included in the final brawl+. All you're doing is wasting PW's time by making this code, and making the rest of us have to wait longer to get codes that will benefit everyone, and not just a small minority of brawl+ players.


If the point of HAD is not to enable WDing, then what is the point? The aerial game is very similar with it, given the fact you can still attack out of your airdodge, just with a few distinct buffs to defense. Recoveries essentially will always come down to drifting a short distance, then airdodge diagonally up and toward the stage, then drifting the rest of the way back to the stage. It will always be in your best interest to use the airdodge in your recovery, and will make recoveries even easier than they were before. At least with BAD you had to weigh your decisions on if it would be worth ADing or not when you're under attack, since you would be put in yet another compromised state if you did so. With HAD, you can just airdodge straight up through someone trying to spike you, and then recover, and then begin edgeguarding them. This doesn't help to make a more competitive brawl. It's removing depth from the ledge game. On the stage we'd have something even worse than vanilla brawl's defensiveness in airdodges. If you can airdodge an attack, you can put yourself in a position where you will be able to easily retaliate back, which is defeating the whole purpose of trying to balance the game in favor of offense.

Really, with all these negative effects on the airgame (at the most they're a neutral change, just making it different rather than better, but I think they're definitely leaning more towards hurting it than helping it), I don't see what point there could be for the inclusion of HAD except for enabling WDing.

QFT

I had to bring these up because I know giza's post was ignored for some reason

 

[storm92]

Do you PLAY Brawl+? If you can't see how drastically the game is improved even w/o MAD, then you must be blind or something. The whole game is different, it feels how it should, and MAD is just another unnecessary option (when we have some already that do the same thing and are more natural) that takes lots of lines and only serves to bring Melee nostalgia.

If you guys want Brawl+ to play almost exactly like Melee, maybe you should play melee in addition to Brawl+. Seriously, there is no need for MAD at all.

Exactly, I play Melee and Brawl+ and I'm completely happy.

 

[zxeon]

When did this topic show up? We meet again storm.

 

[storm92]

When did this topic show up? We meet again storm.

Last night, it was a nice and controversial topic.

And yes we do zxeon, I missed you, where ya been?

 

[kupo15]

Do you PLAY Brawl+? If you can't see how drastically the game is improved even w/o MAD, then you must be blind or something. The whole game is different, it feels how it should, and MAD is just another unnecessary option (when we have some already that do the same thing and are more natural) that takes lots of lines and only serves to bring Melee nostalgia.

If you guys want Brawl+ to play almost exactly like Melee, maybe you should play melee in addition to Brawl+. Seriously, there is no need for MAD at all.

Yea, I like how brawl+ has more natural movement instead of being a game based on unorthodox ways of faking ppl out. Besides DDing being the only unnatural fake out in the game, I think brawl+ improved a lot in its fighting mechanics...

 

[Finns7]

DD and CC are no wd and no waveland. Do you think we want it for melee nostalgia? Or because its a good tech?
Also there is no need for alot of other codes but we still have them. Wd feels natural to me and others, for me prob because I used mad way back when this came out and ever since when i play brawl+so it feels normal. The code has problems but if there being addresed then I see no problem in them. I wish you could have the wd set to the L button or something, like L for melee and R for brawl (you get 1) but that would prob be too much lines I guess.

If you guys want BAD so much go play VB lulzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Brawl+ doesnt feel like melee with wding. It still feels like brawl. Why do you guys say stuff like that brawl is still inferior when compared to melee and no code will change that. Melee was a awesome fighter and putting in a mechanic from one of the greatest fighters ever is not bad in my book.

 

[.MaRiO]

I dont know why but these feels like a Republican vs Democrat debate lmao
Some people scared of change i guess

and its called BAD for a reason loool
jk



but not really

 

[storm92]

I dont know why but these feels like a Republican vs Democrat debate lmao
Some people scared of change i guess

and its called BAD for a reason loool
jk



but not really

Please if you're not going to post anything worthwhile don't post at all.
WE'RE NOT SCARED OF CHANGE YOU IDIOT.
We don't support WD in Brawl+, as we've said THOUSANDS of times.

Agh!

 

[kupo15]

If you guys want BAD so much go play VB lulzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
.

Wow did you really just say this? This is just as bad as saying we should go back to melee for changing brawl this much

I dont know why but these feels like a Republican vs Democrat debate lmao
Some people scared of change i guess

and its called BAD for a reason loool
jk



but not really

Yea, you are afraid of change if you can't play without MAD. Move on....

 

[leafgreen386]

DD and CC are no wd and no waveland. Do you think we want it for melee nostalgia? Or because its a good tech?
Also there is no need for alot of other codes but we still have them. Wd feels natural to me and others, for me prob because I used mad way back when this came out and ever since when i play brawl+so it feels normal. The code has problems but if there being addresed then I see no problem in them. I wish you could have the wd set to the L button or something, like L for melee and R for brawl (you get 1) but that would prob be too much lines I guess.

If you guys want BAD so much go play VB lulzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Brawl+ doesnt feel like melee with wding. It still feels like brawl. Why do you guys say stuff like that brawl is still inferior when compared to melee and no code will change that. Melee was a awesome fighter and putting in a mechanic from one of the greatest fighters ever is not bad in my book.

Before I say anything else... it's DC. Not CC. Dash Cancel. Not Crouch Cancel.

Now that that's over with, I think you're missing one major thing here. WDing doesn't work in brawl the same way it works in melee. It just plain doesn't. Even if it were to have landlag, it still wouldn't work the same. So no. It is not adding something from melee at all. In fact, it's ruining something from melee. I think it works great... in melee. But not in brawl, and not even after giving it landlag.

And...

If you guys want BAD so much go play VB lulzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Shut. The. Frick. Up.

And before you do anything else, I would suggest you read my post about how HAD screws up the airgame.

 

[Finns7]

No u





anyway one of ur arguments is that wd is too foreign and it will make us lose potential brawl+ brawlers. Well tell the truth...is mad the only code that does that? ...no

I did and I dont even really agree with that had version, and your right Brawls wd doesnt work like melees, so why does everyone keep saying that the wd makes it feel like melee? Do you agree leaf? thats all I was saying. Also, can you give me the new mad code since you already know it doesnt work good in brawl even with landing lag. I didnt know there was a updated mad yet.


When using the BETA mad code I just got used to it and I thought it had potential with tweaking.

 

[storm92]

No u

Excellent response, I think this deserves an award or something.

anyway one of ur arguments is that wd is too foreign and it will make us lose potential brawl+ brawlers. Well tell the truth...is mad the only code that does that? ...no

It is the code that most does this.
Some Brawlers may be warded away by others, but not even close to as much as WD.
I know of several people who refused to play with MAD on.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the point of brawl+ is to make brawl more into a smash bros game, meaning combos, L canceling, hitlag reduction, shorter short hops, dash speed increase etc etc AREN'T just for show.. these things are VITAL to the game's success. everything we are adding to the game promotes depth and adds things into the game that were in smash64 and/or melee.

wavedashing is a extraneous contraption brought forth from the byproduct of melee's air dodge system. this is not needed for a competitive game, this is an EXTRA feature, which may or may not increase the depth of the game, is NOT needed under any circumstance. the game does not need wavedashing, and never will.

and stop ignoring leafgreen, finns7, read his post, he has you nailed.

 

[.MaRiO]

I already argued with leafgrean for hours and hours
why i have to argue with him again
but seriously anyone up for a "logical" debate i would love to try to highlight all of these problems of both sides. Maybe we can actually bring some structure to this
AIM:yrmomishuge
lol leafgreen I challenge you round 2 of this debate

 

[Blank Mauser]

I already combo in both Brawl and Melee. I already edgeguard in Brawl. Brawl+ doesn't make Brawl any less campier, but I deal with camping either way. I already got used to not being able to use any move at any time and found ways around it with shield canceling or just used aerials. Brawl+ to me without MAD just feels like Brawl on EZ mode with nothing much to expand on besides that. I'd lose interest in the project if things kept going the way they are.

Every other code was based on things in Melee and 64, but when I suggest using a code that actually gives more options to experiment with instead of just making different ones better/viable then no one wants to give it a chance? Honestly I want to see good smart players get there hands on Brawl+ and just go to work, do what they did for every other smash game and figure out work-arounds, but now when we don't want to try and work around something we just take things away (add shieldstun, gimp gravity, change timing) which doesn't leave room for expansion. Its boring, and it feels like you guys are just adding and discarding mechanics that you wanted and didn't like when Brawl was first released and aren't considering how the metagame has changed from then to now and what parts you're getting rid of for a "Better" game. At least MAD adds more than being able to dodge as soon as you get out of hitstun and fast fall straight to a perfect shield from practically anywhere in the air.

 

[Finns7]

Well that all depends storm every newcomer doesnt feel that way


Some of those essential smash bros game codes you said are not that vital imo, really there should of been a better teching window which was in 64 and melee., and no grab release gay **** first and foremost. With every code comes a counter code to balance it.


extraneous contraption.........is it that hard....thousands, will lose interest in brawl+ because it will feel like melee 2.0 and its extraneous. to do 3 inputs. There are way more hardcore elements to brawl+ than wd.

off topic kinda, Jiang you are talking as if you think wd in melee was dumb and uneeded. I think wd helped make melee a competetive game in some aspects. (second paragraph)

Jiang you also have used the new had code. You know its usefulness already **** im so late.

 

[Team Giza]

Dash dance + dash cancel "homogenizes movement" the same way you claim WD does and I dont see you having a problem with that lol.

Dashdancing does not homogenize movement. I don't even get how you can say that. If anything dashdancing makes movement in the game more diverse. Characters with big initial dashes have much better movement now then characters with small ones. However, with brawl inability to shield during the dashdance it gives characters with shorter initial dashes better defensive options right after dashdancing than the other characters.

Dash canceling gives more options to characters after the initial dash ends. Which once again favors characters in different ways and makes the shorter dashdancing have some more unique applications. It still takes the features from characters and just adds to them giving them slightly more options but still making those characters have to use their unique properties in new ways.

Although wavedashing does some of this as well it also does a lot to homogenize the movement and counters for zoning techniques. Either way, the argument of homogenizing the movements cannot be made for dashdancing. Maybe for dash canceling but not to the extent that it can against wavedashing.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Although wavedashing does some of this as well it also does a lot to homogenize the movement and counters for zoning techniques. Either way, the argument of homogenizing the movements cannot be made for dashdancing. Maybe for dash canceling but not to the extent that it can against wavedashing.

I wish you would elaborate on this. Because it wasn't the case in Melee...ever.

 

[Team Giza]

I wish you would elaborate on this. Because it wasn't the case in Melee...ever.

Which part of it wasn't true in melee? How it negatively effects zoning techniques?