Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[Shadic]

Why in hell would I want a HAD code that puts forth all of the problems with the MAD code but in a new form? Are you downright ********?

Don't even reply, you make me sick. You, and the other "haters."

If you got any more pompous, I think I'd have to get you a crown or something.

Of all of the problems that MAD had (Overpowered Wavedashing, unnatural feel, etc.) you haven't addressed specifically how things are going to work. Are all characters going to have Melee-Luigiesque wavedashes still? What about the amount of lines this is going to take? Melee airdodge took 88 lines, and this code seems to be even more complex, especially if the questions that I'm raising are going to be dealt with in a balanced manner.

If I'm wrong, kudos to you and (mostly) PhantomWings. But if it comes down to line limit, I'm quite certain that the community would prefer character balancing over this.

 

[Dan_X]

I'm not being pompous... Perhaps you didn't see what jiang said, whom I was responding to.

 

[Team Giza]

With Dash dance and the increased dash speed Even with the MAD Code we have now the "homogenizes movement" debate is weakened greatly.

No. The wavedashing would still homogenize the movement. Wavedashing would kill the diversity that was created from dashdancing and would make it so more characters move at similar speeds. This code is going to cost a lot of lines. I am sure we could use those lines to create multiple newer kinds of movement techniques (or techniques) that would help deepen and diversify the game much more than wavedashing would. It seems like quite the waste...

 

[Osi]

No. The wavedashing would still homogenize the movement more. Wavedashing would kill the diversity that was created from dashdancing and would make it so more characters move at similar speeds. This code is going to cause a lot of lines. I am sure we could use those lines to create multiple newer kinds of movement techniques (or techniques) that would help deepen and diversify the game much more than wavedashing would. It seems like quite the waste...

That may have only been due to the stacking nature of it though, who knows what wavedashing in brawl will be like without being able to stack it. I wouldn't ever say a global movement feature is a waste. I firmly believe that everything is worth a shot whether I'm a big fan of it or not. Who knows what will turn out well and what will break.

 

[Team Giza]

I'm not saying global movement techniques are a waste. I'm saying that doing it through a method like this is a waste when we can find better, less line consuming ways of creating similar techniques that probably easier to tweak. It seems like a weird work around that's only purpose is to make a system that is more like melee. We should really think about our options for making better movement to figure out what might be best for the game BEFORE requesting stuff like this.

 

[.MaRiO]

No. The wavedashing would still homogenize the movement. Wavedashing would kill the diversity that was created from dashdancing and would make it so more characters move at similar speeds. This code is going to cost a lot of lines. I am sure we could use those lines to create multiple newer kinds of movement techniques (or techniques) that would help deepen and diversify the game much more than wavedashing would. It seems like quite the waste...

If you come up with newer kinds of movement techniques that would help deepen and diversify the game, I would gladly use them. Anything that adds depth to the game I would love see them added to the game.
I want Brawl+ to have as much Depth, Diversity and to be as deep as possible

 

[Team Giza]

Well we could have made a wavedash like tech that has activated differently and wouldnt have to make a crazy, line lengthy method that messes with the air system to start it. And if we did it this way it would be easier to tweak and could make it vary more based on ANYTHING we wanted it to. This would have been likely have been less line consuming, better for diversity, and better for tweaking!

This would probably have left room for other techniques that would have been good for the game in the same amount of lines this HAD is probably going to take without making other aspects of the game awkward. This seems like a way of keeping the aspects as similar to melee as possible even if it doesn't add anything to the game that couldn't have been added in a more effective method that would be better for the game in all ways.

Personally I would rather add different techniques that would add to the diversity that aren't necessarily movement related but I think we should work out the system and think about how all of the stuff will come together with these ideas and tweak them up a bit BEFORE we even request it.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

If it adds more to the game without breaking anything, then it should be added.

no, it shouldn't. for the sake of brawl+ to attract new members, wavedash should never, ever be in the final version. people will think brawl+'s answer to brawl's slow speed is wavedashing. they will ignore all the other changes.

this will KILL brawl+. there's no way around it. there's no way of denying this. the whole point of brawl+ is to show that we are beyond melee 2.0, this is a new game. we aren't reaching into the past's engine exploits to make it competitive, it just needs a few tweaks.. not a whole cosmetic overhaul of the metagame.

the very sight of wavedash turns people's stomachs. you cannot stop people from feeling this way. the audience we want to attract are melee veterans, but MOST of the people who see this will be brawl crowd, and if this strange wave dashing system is implemented, they will stay away. all wavedashing does is provide a hurdle for those who don't know what it is/don't like it. you can tell people that the game has all these fixes and then mention wavedashing and they will just turn around. it's the sad truth, no matter how 'balanced' you make wavedashing, it will never be accepted.

 

[Dan_X]

If you come up with newer kinds of movement techniques that would help deepen and diversify the game, I would gladly use them. Anything that adds depth to the game I would love see them added to the game.
I want Brawl+ to have as much Depth, Diversity and to be as deep as possible

I second this notion. Giza, I appreciate the fact that you're in favor of trying something new, even if not HAD. Wavedashing is not the only reason that I want HAD. I like the variety it adds to the ledge game, wave landing onto the stage for example. Triangle jumping is another approach made possible through HAD. The simple fact that you can directionally inluence an air dodge is enough to excite me. The prime reason that I like the idea of HAD so much is that it's not a code that has one purpose, one outcome. The HAD code will facilitate many new things. Giza, even though you're not particularly in favor of HAD, what would you suggest be changed with wavedashing to make it more suitable for Brawl. Btw, if you thought of a new mechanic and a coder made said mechanic via a hack I'd love to try it. Have you thought of anything yet?

 

[.MaRiO]

no, it shouldn't. for the sake of brawl+ to attract new members, wavedash should never, ever be in the final version. people will think brawl+'s answer to brawl's slow speed is wavedashing. they will ignore all the other changes.

this will KILL brawl+. there's no way around it. there's no way of denying this. the whole point of brawl+ is to show that we are beyond melee 2.0, this is a new game. we aren't reaching into the past's engine exploits to make it competitive, it just needs a few tweaks.. not a whole cosmetic overhaul of the metagame.

the very sight of wavedash turns people's stomachs. you cannot stop people from feeling this way. the audience we want to attract are melee veterans, but MOST of the people who see this will be brawl crowd, and if this strange wave dashing system is implemented, they will stay away. all wavedashing does is provide a hurdle for those who don't know what it is/don't like it. you can tell people that the game has all these fixes and then mention wavedashing and they will just turn around. it's the sad truth, no matter how 'balanced' you make wavedashing, it will never be accepted.

Even if this is the case, We should not tailor this game to that type of player anyways. This is suppose to be a COMPETITIVE version of brawl. If people are turned away and scared of a little mechanic like this, then it is unlikely that they would play the game on a competitive level in the first place. You are saying that we should deny adding depth to the game with wavedash for the simple fact that it would scare some people away from Brawl +and I think that is wrong.
And im also starting to think that your one of these people that your talking about, that are just frightened of the word WaveDash by calling it works like "glitch" and "engine exploits"

lol I think I have heard these phrases before

 

[Team Giza]

The issue here is we haven't worked out exactly what is the best way about going about making this system work ANYWAY. It was requested without proper thought and thus if something is made incorrectly it could end up being quite frustrating to tweak it back to how we will want it then. If you can find a way to actually make the system diversify instead of homogenize gameplay variation between the characters then I would be all for it. But I don't see that happening with something like HAD.

Regardless of my personal want the game to have diverse gameplay, as for now I don't even see an idea that is thoughtfully worked out for HAD. The code should not have been requested until the idea was thoroughly thought out by the people who wanted it. I do not support how you went and requested it so carelessly without thinking the idea through with other members of the Brawl+ community.

As for now I don't have any ideas readily available that I would want to throw out to get other members opinions on at the moment as I do not have them worked out in my head as well as I would like to.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Even if this is the case, We should not tailor this game to that type of player anyways. This is suppose to be a COMPETITIVE version of brawl. If people are turned away and scared of a little mechanic like this, then it is unlikely that they would play the game on a competitive level in the first place. You are saying that we should deny adding depth to the game with wavedash for the simple fact that it would scare some people away from Brawl +and I think that is wrong.
And im also starting to think that your one of these people that your talking about, that are just frightened of the word WaveDash by calling it works like "glitch" and "engine exploits"

lol I think I have heard these phrases before

we are, in fact, targeting that type of player. think about it.

Group A: Melee Only. These people are probably too stubborn to switch, and are usually melee purists, they have a chance of switching over.. but don't count on it. this group makes up a very meager population of the potential brawl+ tourney scene.

Group B: Played Melee, plays Brawl now. These guys have a decent chance of going to Brawl+, since they understand the value of recovery, advanced edge guarding and combos (among other things). They will make up a bit more of the potential Brawl+ population than group A. [this is most of us in the B+ project]

Group C: Only Played Brawl. These guys never played melee or smash64, or simply prefer vanilla Brawl over the last two games. They don't know or care for wavedashing, they don't know what combos are and probably would get infuriated if they had to be put through one. But they play Brawl competitively. These guys make up a HUGE population of Brawl+'s potential scene (yes, all those sonic fans too).

How can you expect us to get anywhere if we completely alienate Group C? Group C will simply have nothing to do with Brawl+ if wavedashing is involved. this is the simple, pure truth. you can probably ease them into combos, but if you start wavedashing all over the place using some really awkward arrangement of buttons which are TOTALLY UNCONVENTIONAL, they'll just drop the controller. All we have left are Groups A and B.. If you cut out group C, you're left with the melee-hardheads of Group A which will probably see no point in making the switch, and then the group B people who are wondering why they should bother with such low attendance brawl+ tournaments

you have to think ahead. you are catering to a group of people with wavedashing, we need to move past it. seriously. it is hindering the progression of the project.. we could have asked for some way to increase knockback to attacks or something..

 

[plasmatorture]

One of the main reasons I have been in favor of HAD is that it removes infinite air dodges. I do not like being to air dodge more than once, I think it is a stupid mechanic that rewards sloppy playing and destroys a large part of the game. MAD is a return to the way Melee was, sure, but your'e too crippled after you AD.

I want HAD where you can do one air dodge (MAD style) and then you have freedom afterwards to do anything as normal EXCEPT air dodge.

Wavedashing is something I care little about, and while I wouldn't mind its inclusion it really doesn't matter that much to me - I don't think it's needed, but if it could be implemented with as much diversity as it had in Melee it might not be too bad. I do however really like directional air dodging as it helps characters like Link recover.

Really I just think it'd be a neat code to try out.

HAD as Orca describes in the first post sounds lame though. I don't like infinite air dodges.

 

[Kix]

yea, we don't need this game to be about being able to exploit the exploits better than your opponent.

We don't need a game where it gives you a variety of techniques and being better at them makes you better at the game.

I've mentioned in the other thread how this brings up unblockables in situations and helps you get around the huge hitboxes of brawl in additional to giving you a different form of movement. Not with other types of movement can you get the reverse/forward moves to start up with momentum like this for multiple moves. Also wavelanding.

You can stack it but it works at different speeds for characters and it can be countered. So what? "Oh no, it will bring back wavedashing! We don't like it! It doesn't work in the game, even though it does we just don't like it and it is kind of weird!" Great objections.Who cares about infinite air dodges? Do you not have lag before you can do it again, and are you not falling? Why would you even need to do anything afterward if you use the one intelligently?

This. If we do something to get wavedashing it would have to be quite a complex system to avoid this. I would be for a sort of wavedash but only if it helps diversify the game.

I am all for adding movement techniques if it makes the game more balanced out, and more diverse. I do not feel wavedashing does the latter. I would rather spend that code adding new movement techniques, or other features, that would increase both than adding wavedashing.

How wouldn't it diversify the game? I would say it would be the largest balancing factor we would have.

 

[Finns7]

Dash dancing wont save bowser and others alone. I would like Had, you guys say it takes people away from brawl+, well I really dont agree with that. Hitstun will make certain people lose interest, the ledge codes and the buffer will too. Orca I may make a group or something on AiB to discuss WD in brawl. How do you guys know what other brawl+ players enjoy, or are using...Most of the time when a brawl+ vid is posted from someone not on this site they have WD in there codeset.

The mad code no doubt wasnt finished, we should atleast try had. Thx orca for asking atleast. We dont know what will end up.

 

[Osi]

Dash dancing wont save bowser and others alone. I would like Had, you guys say it takes people away from brawl+, well I really dont agree with that. Hitstun will make certain people lose interest, the ledge codes and the buffer will too. Orca I may make a group or something on AiB to discuss WD in brawl. How do you guys know what other brawl+ players enjoy, or are using...Most of the time when a brawl+ vid is posted from someone not on this site they have WD in there codeset.

The mad code no doubt wasnt finished, we should atleast try had. Thx orca for asking atleast. We dont know what will end up.

The amount of videos with MAD have dropped. I am actually an example of that, but I am open to a well made HAD. I have in fact been pushing for it all along.

I'm on the IRC if anyone wants to discuss MAD also right now.

 

[Finns7]

^ The people who dont come on this site.

 

[Osi]

^ The people who dont come on this site.

Ah, fair enough

 

[Revven]

by the way, why is the modified code restricted to 256 characters? is there any way that can be changed?

I would also like to know this, as it has confused me. In the Gameshark days, this was not an issue with memory hot swapping, so I would assume it is just an issue with the Ocarina program. Could we not just try and get someone to make a new one that fixes this limitation?

No, it is the Wii's RAM, blame the Wii for our limitations as its the leftover RAM after the game has been completely loaded. We'll be able to have MORE space through patching unused memory when Gecko OS 2.0 comes out but, that's only 255 patches (which is a lot) and is only temporary and would require you to have two files for Brawl+, a .gct (for codes) and a .gpf (for the patching).

There's no way to change the limit, sorry guys.

Also, I seriously doubt that in the end, we're going to use HAD or MAD or whatever the hell you want to call it. The game is fine the way it is without either of those, I don't see WHY we need it. Tell me WHY we need it, WHY, is it really necessary? Does it REALLY balance the game the same way the other codes do? I just played Brawl+ last night just fine and the people I played as did pretty awesome without WD'ing, WHY would the game need it? It doesn't.

I'm not against WD'ing, I just don't see the need for it in Brawl+. We've got enough ground options with Dash Dancing and Dash canceling, do we really need a third option? We've nerfed the defenses already, shield stun stops a lot of shield grabbing, srsly. Do we need WD'ing to get past defenses?! NOOOOOOO. What we have now is fine enough, is the point guys.

You can use HAD or MAD if you WANT TO, it's your choice for fun, but, don't be surprised if it isn't in the final (as it shouldn't be).

Just like for vB, Brawl+ can be played any way you want to play it, which means without HAD or with HAD, as long as you don't try to force it on others (which is what we'd be doing if it was in the final, which is what we DON'T want to do) then it's cool mangz.

 

[storm92]

Dash dancing wont save bowser and others alone. I would like Had, you guys say it takes people away from brawl+, well I really dont agree with that. Hitstun will make certain people lose interest, the ledge codes and the buffer will too. Orca I may make a group or something on AiB to discuss WD in brawl. How do you guys know what other brawl+ players enjoy, or are using...Most of the time when a brawl+ vid is posted from someone not on this site they have WD in there codeset.

If you just tried to insinuate that a WD will save Bowser...no.

 

[Ukemi]

Um...wouldn't this just make the code longer and complex? I mean if the community thinks it's worth is then I guess it's fine... (subliminal ad for de-staminizing PT)

 

[Finns7]

It wont but it can help certain chars...

How do we even know bowser is garbage though...are any of us bowser pros

 

[storm92]

It wont but it can help certain chars...

How do we even know bowser is garbage though...are any of us bowser pros

We don't have to be pros to see if a char can combo or not.
Bowser can't, he only has a couple cookie-cutter combos and is way too susceptible to being combo'd.

 

[Finns7]

Combos dont mean victory all the time maybe bowser has something we just dont see yet.

 

[goodoldganon]

As others have said, Wavedashing isn't a good thing. It's a turnoff to a large portion of people (not sure why, but it just is.) I also feel with the crouch canceling code and other codes there are plenty of movement options.

All in all I feel adding WD does nothing for the game. It also takes away from the unique nature of Brawl that we should be trying to protect. WD was a melee thing and we should keep it that way.

 

[Finns7]

No auto sweet spot leges was a 64 and melee thing and is not for brawl, the chars arnt desinged for it, unless we have a tech code out

 

[storm92]

No auto sweet spot leges was a 64 and melee thing and is not for brawl, the chars arnt desinged for it, unless we have a tech code out

Yet it was intended in both previous games, unlike Wavedashing.
No ASL is a Smash mechanic and was taken out in Brawl like L-canceling due to Sakurai not wanting the game to be competitive; the recoveries are perfectly fine with it.

 

[Finns7]

ASl does not fit brawl as it is. It needs a counter code.


Alot of things were not intendid in smash that are there anyway. Think of all the melee techs...do you really think sakurai intendid that, for 64 the birth of isai, that definately wasnt

 

[storm92]

What do you mean?

 

[Finns7]

The ledge codes need a tech code to counter it. Like in melee

 

[goodoldganon]

I agree. I enjoy playing with ASL because it's the way Brawl was intended. We have made massive buffs to the offense and more are coming. The ASL allows players to get back onto their feet. Also no-ASL makes ledgeguarding way easier. It doesn't even really take skill anymore. There is a reason our recoveries are so large and it's because we are supposed to chase enemies off to edge guard them. High risk high reward. I'm VERY VERY against the no-ASL code. It adds nothing to the game.

 

[storm92]

The ledge codes need a tech code to counter it. Like in melee

Oh, of course. I'm completely for a tech code, especially one for increasing the windows on ledgetechs.

 

[SGX]

I think a lot of group C will be alienated anyways. Most of them are people who think vanilla brawl is actually a GOOD game and that in itself pretty much renders them hopeless, lol.

I would definitely give HAD a shot. If it turns out that it ruins balance, then we won't use it. If homogenization = balance, then so be it.

 

[.MaRiO]

I think a lot of group C will be alienated anyways. Most of them are people who think vanilla brawl is actually a GOOD game and that in itself pretty much renders them hopeless, lol.

I would definitely give HAD a shot. If it turns out that it ruins balance, then we won't use it. If homogenization = balance, then so be it.

QFT

And like I said before this game should be built to be as competitive as possible with the amount of code space at hand. Wheater it be with HAD or not, what ever combination of codes thats makes the game have to most depth and be the most competitive should be used in the final set. Wheater you think HAD is the way to go to make this happen or not is up for debate, but I really dont think there is a point in arguing if this would turn away Group whater player blah blah blah. The only thing we can do is make the best game we can regardless of what group of people think about the game.

The only type of player that would go through all the trouble of modding there wii to even try Brawl+ is a competitive player. So it does not matter what the casuals think AT ALL. This is for COMPETITIVE PLAYERS, im pretty sure everyone can agree with me here at least. lol
So the only thing we should be worried about is making the game as competitive as possible.
And obviously Homogenization= balance lol
You are giving everyone more equal options which puts them a more equal playing field which is exactly what we want lol A more balanced character cast

 

[Team Giza]

How wouldn't it diversify the game? I would say it would be the largest balancing factor we would have.

Balance does not equal diversity. Even if the argument was true that adding wavedashing would add balance (which I am not convinced of). It still makes it so that all the characters will be able to react to certain tactics the exact same way. It makes the characters play more similarly in this respect. It overall might make the characters more balanced but it would be making the characters feel less unique.

I would definitely give HAD a shot. If it turns out that it ruins balance, then we won't use it. If homogenization = balance, then so be it.

No. Because that amount of code used for HAD could be better used to make techniques that help make characters more diverse and balanced.

Secondly homogenization in an aspect like this does not automatically equal balance. Wavedashing will make it easier for a lot of characters to get around zoning techniques that other characters are based around. In the end its going to make the characters whose offensive tactics are least countered by wavedashing to be much better. Its gonna hurt characters that have their main tactics countered by wavedashing.

 

[kupo15]

Even if this is the case, We should not tailor this game to that type of player anyways. This is suppose to be a COMPETITIVE version of brawl. If people are turned away and scared of a little mechanic like this, then it is unlikely that they would play the game on a competitive level in the first place. You are saying that we should deny adding depth to the game with wavedash for the simple fact that it would scare some people away from Brawl +and I think that is wrong.
And im also starting to think that your one of these people that your talking about, that are just frightened of the word WaveDash by calling it works like "glitch" and "engine exploits"

lol I think I have heard these phrases before

Umm no. Don't be so ignorant to say that anyone against WDing in brawl is not capable of being competitive or w.e. I am competitive and I am against wavedashing in brawl because it does not fit brawl and I think it is not good for the game and I know there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. Its fake depth and it will only make the game more unbalanced i think. If you look at melee, some characters benefited from wavedashing more than others which allowed them to skyrocket to the top. (see: fox/falco)

but in any case, HAD should not even be requested until the game is fixed with its basic mechanics

 

[petre]

I agree. I enjoy playing with ASL because it's the way Brawl was intended. We have made massive buffs to the offense and more are coming. The ASL allows players to get back onto their feet. Also no-ASL makes ledgeguarding way easier. It doesn't even really take skill anymore. There is a reason our recoveries are so large and it's because we are supposed to chase enemies off to edge guard them. High risk high reward. I'm VERY VERY against the no-ASL code. It adds nothing to the game.

I think ASL makes recovery too simple and easy. you should be punished for having a sloppy recovery. you should be punished if your opponent can perfectly predict what you are going to do to recover. with ASL its hard to stop many recoveries even if you know when/how someone is going to go for the ledge.

 

[Shadic]

I'm not being pompous... Perhaps you didn't see what jiang said, whom I was responding to.

Funny, you still failed to answer any of the points that I brought up.
And I quote:

Of all of the problems that MAD had (Overpowered Wavedashing, unnatural feel, etc.) you haven't addressed specifically how things are going to work. Are all characters going to have Melee-Luigiesque wavedashes still? What about the amount of lines this is going to take? Melee airdodge took 88 lines, and this code seems to be even more complex, especially if the questions that I'm raising are going to be dealt with in a balanced manner.

 

[SGX]

I wasn't saying that homogenization would necessary equal balance. I'm saying, if it DOES make it more balanced, I would sacrifice diversity for balance.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I like wavedash in Brawl+. It gives more options. Honestly its not the best way to move, its just another option. Also some characters move better with wavedash than others, its not all the same.

I like it because Brawl's floatiness combined with wavelanding makes everyone able to move and use aerials like Luigi did in Melee, adds to Brawl's air game. It also buffs defensive options with wavedash spot dodge and wavedash out of shield.

It also makes anything canceled with jump able to be canceled with wavedash. Sonic can cancel his spindashes for combos, Pika can wavedash out of QAC, and other moves like Fox's reflector can let you move without having to jump after reflecting something.

Plus it doesn't make juggling as powerful as you think. The momentum you get is still fast, and you can fast fall and DI right afterwards with no landing lag. If anything it gives new ways to escape, you can airdodge towards an attack and then DI the other way on the way down so they end up trying to grab thin air.

I don't think many people have tried it much. With the new merger code fitting it in isn't as much as a problem anymore.