NINTENDO Galaxy
Smash Ace
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- Jan 29, 2016
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I nade this post in the 4BR V4 thread about a month ago and I said I would put it here to share in case any other Lucas mains would like to view it easily.
Be careful, it's a very long post.
Edit: What is missing from the quoted post is the quotes of other users from the thread that I responded to. It seems like quoting my own post removed their quotes.
For anyone who wants to read the original with the missing quotes here it is.
Link: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...-insight-analysis.452108/page-6#post-21883207
Be careful, it's a very long post.
Edit: What is missing from the quoted post is the quotes of other users from the thread that I responded to. It seems like quoting my own post removed their quotes.
For anyone who wants to read the original with the missing quotes here it is.
Link: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...-insight-analysis.452108/page-6#post-21883207
I've heard Lucas called a grappler and a zoner in this thread. I think something that can be one of Lucas's strengths could be mixing up these playstyles instead of heavily relying on one.
This can help prevent a Lucas player from driving themselves into a corner when one playstyle fails to work in a match.
I'd say a "zoner" Lucas revolves around pressuring the opponent with the following:
PK Fire -
A mix of ground and short hop PK Fire (includes wavebounce and B-Reverse PK Fire)
PK Freeze spam -
Literally.
Even commentators have caught on to Mekos doing this recently for better or worse.
Lucas can do this at the start of the match or whenever Lucas finds himself fullscreen (read as huge gap/distance) from his opponent. PK Freeze has a lot of shield stun and very low endlag to boot. So regardless if the opponent chooses to spotdodge, shield, or airdodge, Lucas is able to get out his 2 frame jab 1 or a shield which can lead into a grab if the opponent uses an unsafe attack onto Lucas's shield or just runs at him.
If Lucas is vs. an opponent like Marth who uses Dolphin Slash or another opponent that either has a frame 1 move or a quick move with invincible/intangible startup. (think Ryu's Shoryuken) they may be able to bypass PK Freeze's endlag and Lucas's jab 1 (I'm not too sure on this last part, it will need to be tested).
Furthermore, if an opponent decides to airdodge PK Freeze, Lucas can charge the move slightly longer to catch the opponent after the airdodge. However, if Lucas's opponent has a counter, reflector, Game & Watch's Bucket, or a PSI Magnet they can avoid the setup entirely.
Slightly unrelated but if an opponent counters PK Freeze near Lucas it can result in him taking a ton of damage or a stock (Corrins have taken stocks off of me when I get PK Freeze happy). I forgot exactly but I'm pretty sure that if Game & Watch buckets PK Freeze, no matter how much Lucas charges it, he gets a full bucket so I find it best to avoid using that move vs him unless you find challanges fun and they make you play better.
Falling short hop retreating/approaching Zair. -
I use this move to space and slowly inch my way towards the opponent while at the same time, annoying them with this low damage and low knockback move similar to Megaman's Mega Buster. I use it to to stop sudden approaches. Think of it like you are poking a friend with a long pool noodle until they snap on you. In smash terms to me, this becomes either a dash attack or the opponent runs at Lucas.
You can also use it as a substitute for PK Fire as a mixup if you think your opponent is expecting it or if you just want to mix it up. Occasionally I'll full hop with this move to catch attempts to jump over Lucas.
As for the followups from a sweetspot Zair, Lucas is able to start another version of his footstool repetition or if the opponent is above 100%, Lucas is able to land an up smash, get a maximum of 3 down tilt locks into a kill move of his choice, or a dash attack that can take the stock. Keep in mind that being hit by sweetspot Zair above 120% can either send the opponent into a tech situation or the untechable spin animation.
Link to video of the specific footstool repetition I was referring
to.
I've managed to reproduce this on other members of the cast in training mode, but not to kill percent... yet; and for some characters it seems like you are not able to lock them until kill percent with this method. I think if Lucas mains can get this down, we can possibly do this on Battlefield so we do not have to worry about platforms anymore.
The inputs are fast and tight, but I believe there is a rhythm to it; and yes Lucas does have enough time in-between each lock to choose which side he wants to land on and is even able to push the opponent a short distance during his dair endlag.
Ok, more about zair. The easiest and most consistent way I find Lucas is able to land sweetspot Zair instead of just doing it in neutral, is off of a footstool lock. Sweetspot Zair at mid percents (think like 60-90%) is able to true combo into PSI Magnet to send the opponet offstage or a fair.
Lucas can also true combo a sweetspot Zair into a dash grab at low percents. Lucas can easily land this after a lock.
This video should solve your Nair problem with Lucas.
The answer I usually see to SDI Lucas's Nair is down and away or just SDI the opposite direction Lucas is moving.
Do keep in mind that Lucas can still follow your SDI and land Nairplanes on you (up to 3 Nairs back to back; usually involves the use of a double jump).
If Lucas is able to land a full Nair on an opponent, he can convert it into a footstool lock, an upair, a dair, or a bair if the Lucas still has his double jump and the opponent is sent in a favorable position when leaving the last hit of nair.
If nairplanes are the Lucas player's primary way to deal damage and you manage to SDI out of it (Lucas's Nair has a 2.0 SDI multiplier, slight exxageration, but the slightest SDI will allow you to escape the move with ease) they will probably have a tough match.
Points A & B I have not actively thought about. A for being easier to play around and less space to threaten, B for giving opponents the time to think.
All I think I can add to this (which you already know) is that some Lucas players decide to aim PKT1 at Lucas right before the move ends or when they have decided they are done edgeguarding the opponent to send themselves across the stage to safety for the most part.
Characters like Pit can use Palutena's Bow to inflict damage on Lucas if they (Pit) manage to get back on stage in time, while characters with charge shots (Samus, Mewtwo, Wii Fit Trainer, Lucario, and Mii Gunner) can just let it rip and watch a helpless Lucas get blasted.
Characters with fast running speed like Captain Falcon and Sonic can just simply follow Lucas's escape and punish with whatever they feel like.
As far as Down Throw to Dair leading into a tech chase, I think that is news to me. I'm familiar with dair to no tech leading into the following: upair, footstool to dair lock into create your own combo, sour bair to sweetspot bair spike, a fair, 2 sweetspot bairs, an up air after a sweetspot bair, or if opponent DI's away from Lucas during a sweetspot bair that is usually a free stock.
I'll agree that using Dair as a tech chase may not be reliable and it sounds really odd to me at that, but if the Lucas does decide to follow the opponent after they tech, Lucas can a either land with a sweetspot bair (while still allowing Lucas to drift away from his opponent) or a retreating sweetspot fair on the opponent's shield if they decide to shield to make his landing as safe as possilble or he could fall with a cross-up nair where Lucas would land on the opposite side of his opponent from where he started the nair for a situational mixup.
But most likely I can see him getting punished for even thinking of trying to land on the opponent's shield unless he gets the chance to up air the opponent or their shield close to the ground, then that is safe.
A little more abour nair.
Lucas can use a short hop nair to fast fall cross up if he is next to his opponent and they decide to shield it. He can even use an approaching/retreating short hop nair to cover rolls as an edgeguard which is I believe PK Bash was getting at with this.
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I know I talk about characters having stream representation and performance a lot, and how it plays a big role in how the community views the roster's viability.
I found this comment in the 4br V4 tier list news article and thought I would share it since I share a similar and I think this user put a lot of thought and time into their post.
An example I found for Lucas players took place months ago. This was at a big tourney which had a stream ( I think a main and a secondary for Smash 4) and it also had a good portion of the Smash 4 community watching it. I recall Mekos and Nova being there, Pauleke too and several other Lucas mains they had gathered and formed a meeting spot in the venue for all the Lucas mains in attendance. Anyway, there was one Lucas player at the tourney who was not a member of Lucas Discord at the time, but during the week of the tourney, in Lucas Discord and maybe on Twitter, I really forgot, players in the venue and the members of Lucas Discord at the tourney were talking highly of a Lucas main who in their descriptions said that he was really on point and consistant with his footstool combos. I vaguely remember finding his name in bracket on smash.gg and saw that he got really far in the tourney, yet to my dismay he was never on stream.
Thinking about it now in relation to Delzethin's quote, multiple players saying that Lucas's footstool combos are too hard or inconsistent (these comments usually come from people who do not play Lucas or are new Lucas mains who quickly ditch the character due to refusal of learning his footstool combos which some Lucas mains consider is required for optimal Lucas play), and the PK Blueberry video I linked in the 2nd September 20th spoiler tonight got me thinking that Lucas could of had a chance for a strong or popular showing outside of montages, locals, and combo videos. But due to reasons not known by me or something I fail to understand, it did not happen. That's what I was trying to say.
I think the difficulty for his footstool combos are blown out of proportion unless Lucas is doing it to a character that can drift really far and fast, no matter how many times I'm told that Taiheita messes them up too.
Or perhaps I'm really biased towards footstool combos since I have been practicing them since Day 1 of Lucas's release when PK Blueberry released his first Lucas footstool video on Lucas's release day.
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This right here is all extra but it is more Lucas information.
These spoilers contain all of my Lucas posts I could find with information on him dating back to the V2 Tier List. The spoilers are marked by dates. Inside each spoiler is a link that should jump you to a specific post.
These spoilers are not necessary to read but if you enjoy Lucas, would like to know more about him, or are new to the threads and/or missed the previous comversations about him or need a refresher, these should catch you up.
The one I really want you guys and gals to read is PK Bash's amazing Lucas essay and my long post in the spoiler tab immediately below that. I believe those two have the most useful Lucas information in it.
Enjoy!
P.S: I added a video under the second September 20th spoiler that shows a new video that I believe I have not shared in the forums.
I know this post is very long so I'll be reposting this under the Lucas forum in case a Lucas main or I want to find this stuff for easy access.
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-116#post-21790184 In regards this post, I once fought a Charizard in Charizard Discord who second guessed if he should Dair meteor smash Lucas's PKT2 recovery when I was below the stage. He jumped off the stage as if to get the timing for his Dair right, then all of a sudden he double-jumped back on stage (it was on Battlefield), let me grab the ledge, and then attempted to punish my getup. I forgot how the rest of the match went since it was months ago, but I remember aaking him why he did not spike me and he said that he thought my PK Thunder was just like Ness's. I basically told him to not hold back next time and go for it.Just the first paragraph. https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-172#post-21837913https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-174#post-21841289 This video can help clear up misconceptions players may have when performing Lucas footstool combos.
Here is the description of the video for those who may have missed it: "Just wanted to make this incase there are some still confused on when to do the footstool, or didn't know you can react to their DI."
EDIT 1: Decided to add even more extra stuff that crossed my mind during and after I posted this, but I held off on it because it was getting me side-tracked while I was typing the main post.
Edit 2: Done editing this post
- Added a paragraph after Delzethin's quote
- Added a short segment covering 2 Lucas techniques that I did not mention so far below this bullet point list
- Added a video of my match showing a potential reset Lucas can use on opponents, although I chose to use it because I decided to avoid using the footstool lock in this match below this bullet point list.
- Correctly spelled refresher.
Edit 3: Added "not" after "I have" in the parenthesis sentence below where I talk about a potential Lucas re-grab or pseudo chain grab with down throw to Jab 1-2 to a second grab.
Extra Lucas Tech: Lucas is able to auto/frame cancel (forgot which one is which) his bair and dair.
He can cancel his bair by inputting a short hop airdodge (can also work if you buffer the airdodge, I believe) and inputting bair or buffering it near the end of his airdodge. This works because Lucas's Bair has an autocancel window at the very beginning of the move, 2 frames if I am right.
Lucas can also cancel his dair from a short hop and a full hop with a very delayed fast fall timing. I have tested thison the lower Battlefield platforms, the Smashville platform, and multiple Town and City platforms at different heights (not all the platform transitions I believe) with short hop method and they work. I cannot recall off the top of my head if they work on Lylat and Dreamland though. All credits go to Lucas Discord.
To my knowledge, these 2 techs are not actively used and are just lying around gathering dust.
I think these tactics can be used to bait opponents into attacking with an unsafe move so Lucas can get a punish similar to how Shulk Discord different Shadow Eye and Vision Eye methods which would consist of; being in a certain Monado Art or Vanilla (default) Shulk, using an array of jumps, double jumps, airdodges, and aerials just so they could land on the stage with frame percect timing that will never fail so they can always execute their advance tech.
In short, do a lot of movements to make it appear like you are landing with endlag or mispaced an aerial and then counter your opponent's agression with a suprise punish. I think Lucas cpuld almost pass for a discount Shulk in this regard since the first few frames of his Up Smash are intangible so Lucas could use that once he lands with his auto/frame cancel moves.
Or he could just shield the attack and use his own punish after or even press a button to beat out the opponent's move. What just flew through my head right now is throwing out a f smash to all those who dare throw a charge shot my way.
Around 12:28 in this video, I land a down throw into a up air, into a second down throw that leads into a bair spike with a missed tech that leads into one more grab with an up air.
I got this idea from a fellow Lucas Discord member who would start his matches with me off like this and I quickly grew fond of it.
Now I know this is sloppy, but I think it may be able to work on fastfallers at low percent. By "it" I mean the grab to quick up air into a regrab. It may have a chance as a mixup if the opponent does not expect it.
If the opponent were to pop too high in the air from the down throw and up air, Lucas can simply mash jab 1-2 or time jab 1-2 to hit the opponent once Lucas is done with his down throw animation, since henis able to act extremely early from his down throw, almost before the opponent is launched from it.
Using that Lucas can do a down throw to jab into a free regrab at low or rather any percent (I have not tested if Lucas can get the jab at high percent, so that right there is pure theory) he chooses too for a mixup. If the opponent buffers an aerial, or a reversal type special move (think Marth's Dolphin Slash or Ryu's Shoryuken) Lucas can either shield and punish however he sees fit or parry it with his up smash's start up invulnerabilty, or even charge/begin a smash attack to bait or punish an attempted air dodge that will result in the opponent landing on the ground in even more end lag.
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