Smash Wii U How would YOU improve Smash 4?

[mjwgamer805]

Lately I've been watching/playing a lot of smash 4 -I'm an amateur no doubt- but I have thought long and hard about why I love this game so much and what really separates it from many other fighting games (perhaps ALL other fighting games outside the series).

Things I love:
--Vastly different play styles among the cast of characters offering many strategies and infinite ways to hone your skills.
--The concept of edge guarding / stage control that takes more than just hanging on the edge (Smash 4 bounces you off edges- is what I'm getting at- as well as get up options).
--The concept of percentage (damage taken) without actually dying. You must be "smashed" to get killed.
--Off stage "gutsy" plays that are high risk- high reward.
--Shield brakes.

Things I hate:
--"Gimps" and other ways to "earn" cheap KO's at low percentages.
--Rage. I don't agree with a massive comeback mechanic that too often closes the skill gap between players like myself and the pros (Zero, Nairo, Mr. R, Salem, MK Leo, etc.)
--Players that kill easy "off the top" (DK, ZSS, Bayo especially) for similar reasons to gimps- just doesn't seems to show a false balance of character strengths.
--Tier lists that people swear by. Never have I seen a tier list (final patch) showing Diddy Kong far above all other characters -yet Zero (Diddy main) is the clear candidate as the best Smash 4 player based on major tournament results.

If you agree or disagree with some of the points I made feel free to comment or ask for further explanations...also if you have read this far and haven't lost interest KUDOS! Here are a few things I would change in attempts to improve the game...HOW WOULD YOU CHANGE THE GAME?

Top priority:
-remove rage effect.
-remove Bayonetta's witch time. This is without a doubt the best move in the game. By FAR.
-change Bayo's recovery Up B move to something with very low (or possibly no) hit boxes/knockback.
-change DK's ability to move while grabbing- eliminating 'ding-dong' effect.
-change Luigi's tornando hit boxes so it does not gimp OR kill off the top.

Lower Priority:
-change many of the kill set ups for characters and make them harder to pull off. Meaning make it harder than just "confirmed percentages," 50-50's or DI reads. Yes- I think ko's should be harder than they currently are.
-possibly change projectiles that can be "held" (bombs, bananas, top, blade, etc.)
-change the huge gaps in weight for characters. Jigglypuff would likely be God Tier in Melee if she were "heavier" and didn't die so easily off the top and yet she's mostly crap in Smash 4 because of this. Can she exist in between these extremes?

 

[Comet7]

it's weird to prioritize different playstyles and then want to eliminate stuff like ding-dong that encourages different move selection in neutral (aka different character types or playstyles). it can be "jank", but all the of it distinguishes every character. nothing is simple anyway since each smash game has tons of mechanics that complicate everything, which is why you don't see players like zero getting death comboed by bayo at 0 all the time.

puff is bad because she isn't even good at doing what she specializes in and smash 4's engine only works against her.

i'd buff every single character to make matchups more dynamic.

 

[Tinarkii]

so... you imply you think Diddy should be ranked #1 in the tier list, but don't think he has anything that should be nerfed? Unless you think Diddy's style of play/balance is THE WAY Sm4sh should be played (which is wrong since a large part of competitive Sm4sh is the variation), that seems kinda contradictory...

What I want generally for Sm4sh is a little more hurt-lag after attacks, some slight nerfs to most recoveries, no rage, and less ledge snap range, but no 2 frame vulnerability window when snapping.

What I mostly tried to do is extend the ability to punish and have those punishes matter a little more. The biggest issue I take with Sm4sh is that nearly every character (aside from some very heavies) feel like you're fighting Melee Puff, Peach, or Luigi; it takes FOREVER to to kill off the side or below unless you do some crazy reads or something similar. This is then, in part, why Mario, Bayo, ZSS, and Diddy are played often in the top competitively as they have decent off-the-top kill options in addition to the rest of their stuff. If it was harder to recover, very specific gimps like tornado footstool, fair footstool, etc would not be as much of outliers as more characters would be able to gimp, which would also help balance against characters with guaranteed/early ceiling kill setups.

Now, to be fair, I may be showing my bias as I mostly play Melee, but I really like Sm4sh a lot too, and would definitely play it more seriously if more people at my school played it seriously.

but, thats just my 2 cents

 

[mjwgamer805]

A few things to clarify-

Tinarkii, in regards to my Diddy coments- I think success has everything to do with the player, not the character. And I think it ought to be that way. ZeRo being my example who uses Diddy which is a strong character but not regarded as the unanimous "best" character, yet it's hard to argue that Zero is NOT the best.
To put it simply-- Zero is the best player, but Diddy is not the best character. I think that is GOOD.
The best player should NOT just be the best player that uses a certain top tier character. He is the best due to knowledge, hand dexterity, hard work, experience and several other intangibles. Not because of his character selection.
As far as diddy nerfs- I might want to change a few things- especially the banana. But it's not like Diddy carries players all that often.
Definitely like your ideas of more lag and therefore better punishes. I agree with no rage, less snap-to-ledge range and no 2 frame punishes.

 

[LastTheories]

Lately I've been watching/playing a lot of smash 4 -I'm an amateur no doubt- but I have thought long and hard about why I love this game so much and what really separates it from many other fighting games (perhaps ALL other fighting games outside the series).

Things I love:
--Vastly different play styles among the cast of characters offering many strategies and infinite ways to hone your skills.
--The concept of edge guarding / stage control that takes more than just hanging on the edge (Smash 4 bounces you off edges- is what I'm getting at- as well as get up options).
--The concept of percentage (damage taken) without actually dying. You must be "smashed" to get killed.
--Off stage "gutsy" plays that are high risk- high reward.
--Shield brakes.

Things I hate:
--"Gimps" and other ways to "earn" cheap KO's at low percentages.
--Rage. I don't agree with a massive comeback mechanic that too often closes the skill gap between players like myself and the pros (Zero, Nairo, Mr. R, Salem, MK Leo, etc.)
--Players that kill easy "off the top" (DK, ZSS, Bayo especially) for similar reasons to gimps- just doesn't seems to show a false balance of character strengths.
--Tier lists that people swear by. Never have I seen a tier list (final patch) showing Diddy Kong far above all other characters -yet Zero (Diddy main) is the clear candidate as the best Smash 4 player based on major tournament results.

If you agree or disagree with some of the points I made feel free to comment or ask for further explanations...also if you have read this far and haven't lost interest KUDOS! Here are a few things I would change in attempts to improve the game...HOW WOULD YOU CHANGE THE GAME?

Top priority:
-remove rage effect.
-remove Bayonetta's witch time. This is without a doubt the best move in the game. By FAR.
-change Bayo's recovery Up B move to something with very low (or possibly no) hit boxes/knockback.
-change DK's ability to move while grabbing- eliminating 'ding-dong' effect.
-change Luigi's tornando hit boxes so it does not gimp OR kill off the top.

Lower Priority:
-change many of the kill set ups for characters and make them harder to pull off. Meaning make it harder than just "confirmed percentages," 50-50's or DI reads. Yes- I think ko's should be harder than they currently are.
-possibly change projectiles that can be "held" (bombs, bananas, top, blade, etc.)
-change the huge gaps in weight for characters. Jigglypuff would likely be God Tier in Melee if she were "heavier" and didn't die so easily off the top and yet she's mostly crap in Smash 4 because of this. Can she exist in between these extremes?

Unfortunately your love of the game and what you dislike about the game clash 100%. You can't praise the game for having unique play styles with multiple ways to play, then say you wanna get rid of things that make Bayo, DK, and Luigi as good as they are. All of the things you mentioned about these characters are essential to their gameplay, without it they are easily eclipsed by other characters of the same archetype, ZSS for ladder combos, Bowser for good throw kill confirms, and Mario for gimping and killing off the top. Those play styles and unfortunately those things you hate won't go away because of a few characters. It's also worth mentioning that gimping is a HUGE part of edgeguarding, and has been since 64.

Tier lists are honestly just opinions, and they are usually used to refer to people at their skill level. For example Ally would probably have a different tier list compared to my local level Mario. ZeRo would run circles against a local level Mario, but has trouble vs Ally. Despite ZeRo being the best, his own tierlist isn't perfect either. Zero overcomes bad matchups since they don't mean that you lose them 100% of the time.

Rage isn't that big a deal, in a similar fashion it's an equalizer like gimps are in melee. They're great and make for an unpredictable game, does it suck if you're on the receiving end? Yes. Have you most likely done it to someone else? Yes. Top players are top players because they create that gap, Top players probably won't give you the opportunity to utilize rage by being safe, that's why upsets although they occur a lot don't occur all the time. Honestly if you don't like the concept of rage, then maybe an older smash game is for you.

Personally I really like the game as is right now, the only things I would do is make Palutena's tilts just a bit faster and reduce the active hitbox, increase viability of rest and decrease the end lag, and give Shulk's fair a strict auto cancel window 1-3 frames. To be honest I would add more characters to have very specific buffs but I don't have enough experience with them. As for nerfing anyone, I don't think nerfs do much but destroy a character. And I wouldn't like to do that.

 

[COMMUNIST JOE]

I would make it melee.

 

[mjwgamer805]

Unfortunately your love of the game and what you dislike about the game clash 100%. You can't praise the game for having unique play styles with multiple ways to play, then say you wanna get rid of things that make Bayo, DK, and Luigi as good as they are. All of the things you mentioned about these characters are essential to their gameplay, without it they are easily eclipsed by other characters of the same archetype, ZSS for ladder combos, Bowser for good throw kill confirms, and Mario for gimping and killing off the top. Those play styles and unfortunately those things you hate won't go away because of a few characters. It's also worth mentioning that gimping is a HUGE part of edgeguarding, and has been since 64.

Tier lists are honestly just opinions, and they are usually used to refer to people at their skill level. For example Ally would probably have a different tier list compared to my local level Mario. ZeRo would run circles against a local level Mario, but has trouble vs Ally. Despite ZeRo being the best, his own tierlist isn't perfect either. Zero overcomes bad matchups since they don't mean that you lose them 100% of the time.

Rage isn't that big a deal, in a similar fashion it's an equalizer like gimps are in melee. They're great and make for an unpredictable game, does it suck if you're on the receiving end? Yes. Have you most likely done it to someone else? Yes. Top players are top players because they create that gap, Top players probably won't give you the opportunity to utilize rage by being safe, that's why upsets although they occur a lot don't occur all the time. Honestly if you don't like the concept of rage, then maybe an older smash game is for you.

Personally I really like the game as is right now, the only things I would do is make Palutena's tilts just a bit faster and reduce the active hitbox, increase viability of rest and decrease the end lag, and give Shulk's fair a strict auto cancel window 1-3 frames. To be honest I would add more characters to have very specific buffs but I don't have enough experience with them. As for nerfing anyone, I don't think nerfs do much but destroy a character. And I wouldn't like to do that.

This is true- I definitely agree that more buffs would be better for the game than more nerfs. But can't help but think that Bayo's counter being essentially a shield break like punishment is simply too much when included with all her other weapons...so I disagree there.
But yes I understand that it's a bit of a conundrum that I love different play styles but condemn those that can earn "cheap" kills but think there's a difference between "play style" and "look for one move to completely trash your opponent."
This is why I am completely ok with the idea of REST KOing easily for Jiggs- bc if you miss? Big punishments await. Same with gimping- I like the idea of off stage assault but there are too many gimp opportunities that take zero risk to perform. This is why it pains me to play older smash games because hanging on the edge involves no risk. None. Which makes it seems like stocks often go "unearned". I'm sure this sounds like blasphemy but I know I'm not alone in my opinions.

 

[Mr.ケイ]

I heavily dislike super common jank kills like ZSS's elevators or DK/Bowser rage throw confirm kills, whenever I die to these things I feel as though I was cheated a win because of a single mistake, but removing these things is difficult. I agree that some of the jank needs heavy rework such as Luigi's cyclone gimps, but others are harder to balance out like DK's ding-dong, and Bowser's koo-pa; since those 2 rely so heavily on those kill confirms, which is bad character design. Balancing the game is not as simple as removing jank, because you then have to give those characters that rely on jank something in return or give every character jank like that while giving those with jank something new.

I'm not knowledgable enough in the cast to be able to fully fix problems, but I do know some characters enough to be able to give my 2-cents on how to fix them.
ZSS would need her U-air and Up-B fixed the most; alter the angle and KB of U-air to remove it's massive chaining abilities while also gaining some kill power, and Up-B needs fixes so that you can't fall out of it at all.
Bowser's needs to loose the koo-pa, but gain buffs to his landing data to improve neutral (he has the single worst landing lag in the game by a long shot) and his Koopa Claw (Side-B) needs to be buffed to give him a reliable kill. DK is similar minus the landing data. Escape options are also needed for these 2, most of the best characters have these: frame 3 N-airs, frame 1 intangibility on Up-Bs to name a few. And at that; better roll, air dodge, and spot dodge data: these heavies have the slowest, making combo extensions and tech chases very easy on them and their disadvantage state the worst.

Then there's the characters like Zelda who is an amalgamation of terrible designs: no good neutral tools, no good kill tools, finicky recovery, and anything that is good or decent on her is much better on a different character (Mewtwo U-smash > Zelda U-smash). And then their Ganondorf, who honestly is just a joke at this point and needs major redesigns if they want him to be both unique and good.

 

[Reila]

Delete Fire Emblem everything.

 

[Caryslan]

Delete Fire Emblem everything.

How would that improve Smash 4 for the people who like Fire Emblem or its characters in Smash? I get cutting a few characters, but you want to cut all of them out?

 

[R3D3MON]

I would make it melee.

Enough said.

 

[Caryslan]

Enough said.

You're assuming everyone loves Melee's style of play. Personally, I prefer how Smash 4 plays over Melee.

If I want to play Melee, I'll go find a disc. That's kinda like saying the best way to fix Street Fighter V is to just make it like Street Fighter II

 

[mjwgamer805]

You're assuming everyone loves Melee's style of play. Personally, I prefer how Smash 4 plays over Melee.

If I want to play Melee, I'll go find a disc. That's kinda like saying the best way to fix Street Fighter V is to just make it like Street Fighter II

Enough said.

This is a rather pointless comment...if you like Melee better, that's fine no judgement passed but maybe consider elaborating or give your reasoning instead of dishing out hilariously witty comments.

 

[mjwgamer805]

I would make it melee.

Care to elaborate?

 

[pikadrewuniverse]

I have a few ideas, pretty new, not sure if they've been done before but here we go.
1. Wavedashing
2. L canceling
3. 1st frame fox shine
4. Fox only
5. Final destination

 

[A Scrub]

Lol NO

DK ding dong keeps him relevant

Bayo has a weak neutral, exploit it

Don't challenge a Luigi recovery and mix up your recovery

Don't get grabbed by Bowser

Always ban bf against ZSS


The pros of your list were on point. But smash 4 is also about playing around your opponents character. Honestly they need these tools in their kits to be top or high tier. Learn them and enjoy every bit of it.

 

[pikadrewuniverse]

This is a rather pointless comment...if you like Melee better, that's fine no judgement passed but maybe consider elaborating or give your reasoning instead of dishing out hilariously witty comments.

This has been debated to death but I guess I'll give my 2 cents to humor you. For me, its the perceived speed of the game. Melee has a higher input count per second, that may seem like useless or over complicated tech skill to some, but to me its a challenge to overcome. Something that raises the bar of how fast I can become; Melee and Project M have this seemingly endless ladder that someone can climb. While in Smash 4 I just don't see that. The game feels slow and methodical, yes there are combos and some tech skill, but the focus is different.

Don't get me wrong I do love more strategical mind games (I play a ton of a little known game called Atlas Reactor and its all about mind games) but not in my fighting games. I want my controls tight, my tech skill fast, and my top tier skilled Roy.

How would that improve Smash 4 for the people who like Fire Emblem or its characters in Smash? I get cutting a few characters, but you want to cut all of them out?

Also to answer you, this isn't about improving the game for everyone. This is how we should improve smash 4 personally, that's different for everyone.

 

[Deleted member]

I believe not much needs to be changed about Smash 4 excepting possibly character tweaks which I enumerated in another thread here. The only thing I'd change is how custom specials are acquired. They should be like CDs in the sense that eventually there will no longer be any more to collect. Same thing for trophies, too.

I would make it melee.

But isn't that what Project M is for? Besides, not everyone is proficient at tech skill. Now, Melee is great but the Smash 4 pacing and physics engine most Smashers, myself included, can manage.

Delete Fire Emblem everything.

Uh-uh, honey. Cannot precisely agree with this. I, a 56-year-old woman, ain't much of a big fan of Fire Emblem but 's my girl, and I praise Sakurai and crew for putting her in.

Sayonara

 

[MercuryPenny]

at this point, rage is such an integral part of smash 4's identity that it seems wrong to remove it, in the same way that removing l-cancelling and halving landing lag by default in melee would feel wrong.

that said, it's definitely way too abusable. changing the max increase from 15% to 10% and fixing a lot of the linking hitboxes of up-bs would fix pretty much everything people find offensive about it.

 

[R3D3MON]

You're assuming everyone loves Melee's style of play. Personally, I prefer how Smash 4 plays over Melee.

If I want to play Melee, I'll go find a disc. That's kinda like saying the best way to fix Street Fighter V is to just make it like Street Fighter II

I played Smash 4 before extensively, and I would vastly prefer it to be more like melee or project M. Also that would be a great way to fix the fiasco called Street Fighter V.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Might want to avoid low effort comments, they don't contribute much of anything. Also please don't double post.

My thoughts on improving it?

First would biased buff Chairzard I'd look at the top 10 and bottom 10 characters and make changes. I'd look at moves that clearly need to be looked at or lack utility. Even outside of the casual usage thing moves like warlock punch and ganon utilt need work on. On the flip side Cloud should most likely lose his mobility boost after a while after getting limit and Bayo needs some toning down with her extremes. Bringing the cast closer while not turning it into power creep.

I look into some older stages or an alpha mode of sorts that would turn off hazards on some stages that would be acceptable if they had none. That would open up some new counter pick ideas.

Turning the game into melee isn't wise on some level but has merit on others, main thing I see being able to be carried over is Wavedashing and some moves being sped up but not all. A lot of non melee communities and other fighters hate L-Canceling and some aspects of air dodges and ledges. It's hit and miss what would work and what wouldn't.

Can be improved, no game is perfect, but it is an amazing game as it is.