How would you fix the Stage Hazard switch?

Koopaul

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#1
When I heard about the ability to turn off stage hazards I was pretty excited! I think a lot of us were. Then it we got the game and it was mostly okay. But there were still quite a few surprising things. Sometimes things that were not hazards (like moving platforms) are removed or stop moving. And things that are clearly hazards are left in there!

It's very bizarre. But anyway, this topic is about what changes you would make to a stage if it had it's hazards were off. Would you still have moving platforms? Would the bridge in Garden of Hope be out or built? Things like that.

Here's a few of my ideas:

Mushroomy Kingdom: The stage no longer scrolls but instead starts at a random point in the stage and stays there.
Kirby's Dream Land GB: Doesn't scroll or change. Starts at one of the specific locations and stays there.
Skyworld: All the destructable platforms are destroyed except for the bottom one which can't be destroyed. The moving chained platform moves again.
The Summit: The stage no longer slides down the mountain. The destructable ice platform is destroyed.
Nintendogs: Blocks no longer fall from the sky. Instead a random formation will appears each time you enter the stage.
Big Blue: The Falcon Flyer doesn't tilt.

Feel free to give your opinions on the stage hazard switch and what you would like to have seen.
 

THE SLOTH

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#2
There's a couple bizarre oddities with the Stage Hazard-less versions of some stages. Sometimes things that are still hazards aren't removed from the stages, or vice-versa, things that aren't hazards are removed from the stage.

Ignoring the ones OP already mentioned...

Great Plateau Tower: If you've ever played this stage w/ hazards, you know that the top part of the stage that creates an awkward cave of life can be destroyed upon taking enough damage, leaving behind just a platform. Why wasn't this form made the hazardless version? I don't know if it would've been made legal, but it's a much more neutral layout than the default version that could be fun to play on... although even the hazard version of the stage reforms the part covering the platform after not very long, unfortunately.

Smashville: I guess you could argue the moving platforms are a hazard? I dunno, I've heard some people prefer this version of Smashville over it's hazardless version, although the complications with the Stage Hazard toggle and rulesets means we're more than likely going to see the hazardless version more often. Not an entirely bad thing depending on who you ask, but it is bizarre.

Arena Ferox: As it currently is, choosing the hazardless version of the stage has you fight on one of the randomly chosen forms of the stage that it usually transforms into. Its first form is an asymmetrical, slanted tri-platform layout with statues that, like on Castle Siege, can usually be hit but have their hitboxes removed in this version. This could be fun to play on... except it's a 1/5 chance to get this layout when you choose the hazardless version of this stage, with no way to influence this RNG like how you, to a lesser degree, could choose which form of Boxing Ring you wanted to play on by holding down a button when selecting it. If not this, a better solution would be to make this the stage's default, hazardless form instead of going full on omega.

Wily Castle: Smash 4 comes out. People like the neutral layout, maybe the platforms that come from the sides could make for some interesting plays ala the Animal Crossing stages. Enter the Yellow Devil. Stage is banned because of it. Smash Ultimate announced. Stage Hazard toggle announced. Demonstrated with Wily Castle stage and lack of Yellow Devil. The people rejoice. Game comes out. The hazardless version of the stage removes the additional platforms too.

Stage hazard toggle is truly a blessing, and it makes some stages a lot more playable in both casual and competitive play, but it's weirdly implemented in some cases.
 

Xeno610

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#3
For stages like Tortimer Island, Gamer, and Arena Ferox, I think the hazard less versions need a more consistent layout instead of being random each and every time. What I think they should do is that you get all of the variations of the stages (or a preset of each stage) that you can choose which version to go on.

I also feel like the Living Room needs to be overhauled in this way too. From my experience online, I went to a hazardless version of this stage and there was a section with one soft platform and you can just camp in this small section with two walls in between. So if you are a character with a disjointed attack like Ganondorf or anyone with a sword and you are up a stock, you just won because few characters could do anything about it.

Next, stages like Smashville and Wily Castle need their platforms. I don't consider the moving platforms to be "hazards." All Wily Castle needed was the removal of the Yellow Devil and keep the other platforms around... it would make for a kinda whacky yet fun competitive stage to go on. As it stands, it's basically a Final Destination variant.

Lastly, and this is optional, but I think certain stages should have smaller versions for their hazardless version. For example with Temple, you can have the hazardless version be smaller like how they did in Project M. The same could be applied to stages like Palutena's Temple and Great Cave Offensive.

I am glad that they made this a feature at all and I hope it stays for future games, but I think more should be done.
 

Xelrog

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#4
I would be happy if moving platforms just weren't disabled. Most of the stages being mentioned, I wouldn't play on anyway. I just want the cage to swing in Find Mii and the platforms to move in other levels.

For stages like Tortimer Island, Gamer, and Arena Ferox, I think the hazard less versions need a more consistent layout instead of being random each and every time. What I think they should do is that you get all of the variations of the stages (or a preset of each stage) that you can choose which version to go on.
The random generation is what makes those stages fun and interesting. If the random gen is changed it should be changed universally, not use a different one based on the hazard switch. That would be too obtuse. If Gamer just didn't have the potential to generate caves of life, for example, the hazardless version would be way more accepted by competitive-minded players. Not necessarily in tourneys, but in online arenas and such.

---

Oh, here's a feature I'd like that may or may not be related to the hazard toggle. I'd love to be able to turn water off. Just make it gone, like it's thin air. Make Jungle Japes a windbox again and have players fall through all the other water like on Pac-Land. I really dislike the swimming mechanic.
 
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Xeno610

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#5
The random generation is what makes those stages fun and interesting. If the random gen is changed it should be changed universally, not use a different one based on the hazard switch. That would be too obtuse. If Gamer just didn't have the potential to generate caves of life, for example, the hazardless version would be way more accepted by competitive-minded players. Not necessarily in tourneys, but in online arenas and such.
I didn't realize that Gamer and such would be completely random in their designs. Maybe one set design for competitive play would be the way to go, though I know that's not what everyone agrees with.
 

Koopaul

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#6
Oh, here's a feature I'd like that may or may not be related to the hazard toggle. I'd love to be able to turn water off. Just make it gone, like it's thin air. Make Jungle Japes a windbox again and have players fall through all the other water like on Pac-Land. I really dislike the swimming mechanic.
Jungle Japes' is completely capable of having water disappear and the stage looks fine. The Omega/Battlefield forms give you an idea of what it would look like. In other stages, the water being gone would look weird.

So in my opinion, I consider anything that can kill you when you are standing still as a hazard. So scrolling stages are a hazard. But I also consider stages that travel around and land on spots are hazards too. If you are on Delfino Plaza and you don't get back on the stage in time when it's taking off, you can die. The stage can kill you, therefor it's a hazard.

I'm sure that a lot of people wouldn't agree with that. I happen to like like Delfino Plaza the way it is, but for consistency sake I feel like it shouldn't land at all and just keep flying.

But I am curious what other people would define as a hazard.
 

Xelrog

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#7
Jungle Japes' is completely capable of having water disappear and the stage looks fine. The Omega/Battlefield forms give you an idea of what it would look like. In other stages, the water being gone would look weird.
The water wouldn't be gone visually. You would just fall straight through it, like Pac-Land and Balloon Fight.

As for the stages, my reasoning is this: if GB Dream Land doesn't move, then why would you ever play on GB Dream Land? That's its only defining characteristic as a stage. If you only care about the stage's aesthetic you would just play the Omega or BF version, no? Even a tournament legal stage like Town & City had platforms that can carry you offstage if you stand on them too long. Not the main platform, granted, but I think that unless a level has something else unique that would make you want to play on it, like Skyloft's soft floor, and the moving/travel is the only unique trait the stage has, it almost has to stay.

I think the only things I would define as hazards are those that can deal % damage to the player. Even then I think I'd personally be fine just being able to remove the bosses and nothing else.
 

Koopaul

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#8
The water wouldn't be gone visually. You would just fall straight through it, like Pac-Land and Balloon Fight.
At that point you might as well have a switch that turns off the swimming mechanic. I don't really mind swimming but I see a lot of people complain about it. I'm actually curious what the reason is.

As for the stages, my reasoning is this: if GB Dream Land doesn't move, then why would you ever play on GB Dream Land? That's its only defining characteristic as a stage. If you only care about the stage's aesthetic you would just play the Omega or BF version, no?
It actually does lose the aesthetic if you are playing on the Omega and BF form. You are no long playing inside a Gameboy and the stage appears in 3D. And besides, my idea for a hazard off version of Dream Land GB would have you play in random locations each time you start a match like Castle Lololo, Mt. Dedede, etc.

Even a tournament legal stage like Town & City had platforms that can carry you offstage if you stand on them too long. Not the main platform, granted, but I think that unless a level has something else unique that would make you want to play on it, like Skyloft's soft floor, and the moving/travel is the only unique trait the stage has, it almost has to stay.
There's a lot of stages that are pretty much Battlefield so stages lacking something unique has always been a thing. But I would say that every moving travel stage does have a unique format to it's stage. Delfino Plaza also has a soft floor and a unique formation of platforms as well. So a non-moving Delfino Plaza would still be more unique than Midgar. I just find it wierd that Skyloft stays in place but Delfino Plaza and other moving stages don't. As for scrolling stages? That is difficult. You have Rainbow Cruise which is easy (just stay on the ship) but what about the other ones? Dream Land GB is easier because it does stop at different locations, it's not constantly moving.

I think the only things I would define as hazards are those that can deal % damage to the player. Even then I think I'd personally be fine just being able to remove the bosses and nothing else.
But water doesn't deal damage (unless you are Inkling or a Fire type Pokemon) and you want to be able to turn that off. I guess everyone has their thing. I just want consistency. You have Skyloft (which doesn't move) and then you have Delfino Plaza (which does). You have Arena Ferox (which starts with a random formation) and then you have Coliseum (which has no formations). My OCD brain is annoyed by that hahaha!
 
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Xelrog

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#9
It actually does lose the aesthetic if you are playing on the Omega and BF form. You are no long playing inside a Gameboy and the stage appears in 3D. And besides, my idea for a hazard off version of Dream Land GB would have you play in random locations each time you start a match like Castle Lololo, Mt. Dedede, etc.
That sounds like too ambitious an idea to assume that that's how the devs would handle it, even if they adjusted their definitions for stage hazards. Especially since other traveling stages don't do that.

The water discussion is different from the hazards switch toggle being discussed. I probably shouldn't have brought it up. I just hate swimming because it slows the game down dramatically, limits moves, and takes away the satisfaction of spikes.
 
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#11
This is what I'd do

Keep all moving platforms that float in a simple predictable pattern ,that doesn't go off stage, exactly the way they are normally.

Allow an additional choice for stages that have breakable sections (ex. Outer Heaven, Great Plateau tower etc.) Give the choice to play with those sections there or completely removed.

For those platforms that fall down after standing on them for a few moments, platforms that float off stage and parts of the stage that appear and disappear (ex. turtle from Great bay) ... They all fall under the breakable sections choice. platforms that float off stage will be stationary under that option (and placement of them will be strategically planned but don't feel like discussing where for each stage right now).

For auto-scroll stages... take those completely off the stage selection screen when hazards are off but add new stages from certain sections of those stages. (note: I'm saying we get several stages from each auto scroll stage like having 5 pilotwings stages from different parts of it.)

For Water... not sure how to handle it so leaving that alone.

Anything that can damage a character will be a hazard (Obviously). However if they double as a walkable part of the stage then the option to keep it will be there under the same guidelines as everything above.

Lastly, you can customize which stages to have the "breakable sections" on or off and save your settings.
 
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Koopaul

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#12
That could work. Maybe. But there are stages where I want things to be destroyed and others I want intact. I want the roof in The Great Plateau Tower to be gone, but I want the bridge to be in tact in Garden of Hope. It would be a pain to switch things back and forth for each stage.

EDIT: I missed the part where you can customize which stage has breakable objects or not. I'm surprised you can't do this with hazards already.

And I still say Jungle Japes' water should be gone with hazards off because it's not just ordinary water. It's water that drags you to your death.

That sounds like too ambitious an idea to assume that that's how the devs would handle it, even if they adjusted their definitions for stage hazards. Especially since other traveling stages don't do that.
I could have sworn some spirit battles had you fight in specific spots on Dream Land GB. I'm probably mixing things up with some other stage.

I do know that transforming stages like Mushroom Kingdom U can stick to a particular form in Spirit battles. But that's not the same thing I know. Still I think it might be possible. The Dream Land stage does stop at spots just like Rainbow Cruise stays stationary at the beginning. But yeah, it would be hard/impossible to do with other stages especially 3D Land.

It's funny, the 64 and Melee stages have no problems turning off their hazards. It really shows how things changed after Brawl. Hazards weren't just something that happened to the stage, hazards ARE the stage.
 
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Xelrog

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#14
I could have sworn some spirit battles had you fight in specific spots on Dream Land GB. I'm probably mixing things up with some other stage.
They do that with all the traveling stages. I remember really liking the boat section of Wuhu. I'm just saying that turning hazards off doesn't make any of those start at a random location choice and stay there.

It's funny, the 64 and Melee stages have no problems turning off their hazards. It really shows how things changed after Brawl. Hazards weren't just something that happened to the stage, hazards ARE the stage.
Agreed. There was a time that items and stage hazards only impacted the game, they didn't completely replace it.
 
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