How Would you Buff Ganondorf?

[Almand]

I've been on a "buffing" streak lately. I've buffed Pac-Man (my Smash 4 main, which I have another thread for), Ganon (my Melee main), and Wario (whose buffs I won't really post anytime soon).

I don't think Ganon should be high tier. He's a power character who should be able to hold his own. Very strong, intimidating, hype, but slow, not quite good enough to be a major threat in competitive.

I'm also in the boat that Ganon should have a completely redesigned moveset, so take these changes with a grain of salt.

Here's the Link!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1xtlcro1zz86rhq/Buffing Ganondorf.docx?dl=0
Screw-Up: Back Air is meant to do 18% on the fist, not arm. Damage should be 15/18/17%, not 15/17/18%.
Screw-Up 2: Gravity is meant to be 0.12. A gravity value of 1.12 would be absolutely insane, however funny that would be.

If any of you read it, how did I do? What needs to be changed? I think this places Ganon solidly in lower mid-tier, but I'd love to hear any other thoughts.

Possible To-Do?
-Increase Jump Height (Higher gravity/fall speed pretty much destroys jumps, which destroys recovery) so time in air on both jumps are relatively the same (30 frames on SH, 44 on FH).
-Remove weird hip hitbox on Down Smash, so it also sends into the second hit.

 

[Litany]

A lot of these buffs seem like way overkill. Have you taken a look at safety on shield for these moves? DA, D-tilt, N-air, F-air and B-air all strike me as ridiculous given their safety on shield and utility as-is. Having a B-air that already kills a character like Mario at 70% near the ledge and is safe both rising and on whiff buffed further? This doesn't really make sense to me from a balancing perspective -- it addresses Ganon's weaknesses by mitigating them, which doesn't leave much room for counterplay at all.

 

[Almand]

A lot of these buffs seem like way overkill. Have you taken a look at safety on shield for these moves? DA, D-tilt, N-air, F-air and B-air all strike me as ridiculous given their safety on shield and utility as-is. Having a B-air that already kills a character like Mario at 70% near the ledge and is safe both rising and on whiff buffed further? This doesn't really make sense to me from a balancing perspective -- it addresses Ganon's weaknesses by mitigating them, which doesn't leave much room for counterplay at all.

All good points. In retrospect, many of these buffs were pretty absurd. The fast fall speed change doesn't even make sense to me anymore. Most of these were decided on with "He's strong, why not make him STRONGER!? This buff is okay, but why don't we make it break shield easier!!!" for an hour until I had a mess on my hands. I'm not giving up on this project, per se, but I probably won't be updating it anytime soon. Ganon is just a character I like using in friendlies, anyway, so I'm not at all the best person to go about this task. I'm more suited to someone like Pac-Man or Ryu, personally, but then there'd be bias.

All in all, yeah, I think I did a little more harm than good here. He's better, but not in a way that complements his current tools, or fixes anything wrong with him. I didn't even think of fixing the hip hitbox on his Down Smash in the actual Doc, for crying out loud. I'll keep that in mind if I ever go about changing characters again.

Have a good one!

 

[Guybrush20X6]

My "buff" is simple.

Either give him Wizard's Dropkick as default or give him more angle variance on Wizard's foot.

 

[Almand]

My "buff" is simple.

Either give him Wizard's Dropkick as default or give him more angle variance on Wizard's foot.

That idea is better than most of the stuff I have in the Doc, tbh

 

[link2702]

make side b cancelable on ground during it's dash and startup but not during it's ending miss animation.
make side b travel farther and faster.
make side b untechable.
Make up b go higher and farther left or right.
make his jab a multihit electrical attack with the final hit knocking opponents back.
increase his grab range.
give him better followups to his grabs(since alot of other heavies seem to have up throw setups, give him one)
Decrease the startup and end lag on both his Fsmash and Dsmash.
decrease the landing lag across the board for all his aerials.
Make Down special from the air always a shield breaker.

 

[Almand]

make side b cancelable on ground during it's dash and startup but not during it's ending miss animation.
make side b travel farther and faster.
make side b untechable.
Make up b go higher and farther left or right.
make his jab a multihit electrical attack with the final hit knocking opponents back.
increase his grab range.
give him better followups to his grabs(since alot of other heavies seem to have up throw setups, give him one)
Decrease the startup and end lag on both his Fsmash and Dsmash.
decrease the landing lag across the board for all his aerials.
Make Down special from the air always a shield breaker.

I attempted to do the grab stuff and Down B shield break, but that other stuff seems pretty good. The only gripe I have is making Side B untechable. That would make way for a guaranteed kill confirm (side B to Down Tilt, kills around 130% without rage), and with the cancelable and otherwise majorly buffed Side B, that could easily oversaturate his gameplay (sort of like Diddy's Down Tilt at kill percent). It would be interesting, but I think that might be a little bit much. I'd have to see it in practice, though.

 

[link2702]

I attempted to do the grab stuff and Down B shield break, but that other stuff seems pretty good. The only gripe I have is making Side B untechable. That would make way for a guaranteed kill confirm (side B to Down Tilt, kills around 130% without rage), and with the cancelable and otherwise majorly buffed Side B, that could easily oversaturate his gameplay (sort of like Diddy's Down Tilt at kill percent). It would be interesting, but I think that might be a little bit much. I'd have to see it in practice, though.

dtilt isn't a guarantee on all characters though. Only a handful really have to worry about getting a Dtilt or ftilt to the face if they miss a tech from ganon's side b, many can react quicker than ganon can perform these moves, it wouldn't be to extreme if he had a guarantee on a few characters.

Besides, ganon already does have to rely on side b quite a bit as is anyway, might as well at least make it far more useful for him. I don't think the changes I listed could drastically bump him up to god tier, and besides that, I didn't list exact numbers for any of em for a reason so things could be tried out and fine tuned to where it's useful but not broken.

of course it's all just wishful thinking at this point, we all know 4 won't get another patch with smash switch in development, so it'd really just be up to modders to test it out, and obviously it'd never be allowed competitively, but at least folks could see what could've been had nintendo given ganondorf some much needed buffs.

 

[Lukingordex]

Literally reconstruct his entire moveset. Until that happens he's extremely unlikely to be above the low tier in any smash interaction at all

 

[Almand]

dtilt isn't a guarantee on all characters though. Only a handful really have to worry about getting a Dtilt or ftilt to the face if they miss a tech from ganon's side b, many can react quicker than ganon can perform these moves, it wouldn't be to extreme if he had a guarantee on a few characters.

Besides, ganon already does have to rely on side b quite a bit as is anyway, might as well at least make it far more useful for him. I don't think the changes I listed could drastically bump him up to god tier, and besides that, I didn't list exact numbers for any of em for a reason so things could be tried out and fine tuned to where it's useful but not broken.

of course it's all just wishful thinking at this point, we all know 4 won't get another patch with smash switch in development, so it'd really just be up to modders to test it out, and obviously it'd never be allowed competitively, but at least folks could see what could've been had nintendo given ganondorf some much needed buffs.

I see the Side B to D-Tilt similarly to Rosa's gimp on Lucas and Ness, or like that one 3DS ZSS -> Robin Infinite. It only works on one or two characters, but it makes that matchup almost unplayable. Obviously, this is less extreme, but I feel it's a little too easy of a confirm. But, then again, Bowser and DK almost have easier and safer confirms... Plus I play Ryu, who probably has the best confirms in Smash History, so I dunno. I'd really have to see it in practice, but it's likely really not as bad as I'm thinking.

That being said, I sincerely hope he's just redesigned in Smash Switch; he's been Bad Falcon for too long.

 

[Almand]

Literally reconstruct his entire moveset. Until that happens he's extremely unlikely to be above the low tier in any smash interaction at all

Couldn't agree more.

 

[KingDoop]

Give him a projectile?

Maybe by holding the jab button he charges and fires his OOT electroball

 

[link2702]

Couldn't agree more.

Don’t get me wrong, id rather see a completely revamped Ganon vs slower stronger falcondorf, but I’m looking at what we’ve gotten for 4 and ways to try and fix him, I’m hoping he’s almost completely changed in switch (i say almost completely cuz I think he could be fine keeping some things from falcondorf, just overall changes are definitely needed), but we just don’t know anything at the moment, and 3 games in we’ve been stuck with his current moveset, so I don’t have too high of hopes for any massive changes...

 

[Almand]

Give him a projectile?

Maybe by holding the jab button he charges and fires his OOT electroball

I'd say to replace Down B with a projectile move, like Dead Man's Volley. But at that point, might as well redesign his moveset. But that's a decision for Sakurai, I suppose.

 

[Almand]

Don’t get me wrong, id rather see a completely revamped Ganon vs slower stronger falcondorf, but I’m looking at what we’ve gotten for 4 and ways to try and fix him, I’m hoping he’s almost completely changed in switch (i say almost completely cuz I think he could be fine keeping some things from falcondorf, just overall changes are definitely needed), but we just don’t know anything at the moment, and 3 games in we’ve been stuck with his current moveset, so I don’t have too high of hopes for any massive changes...

If we're right about BotW Link, maybe there's a chance? I think it's a longshot, since he's had this moveset for so long, but we can always hope. Ganon in Smash 4 is pretty much the epitome of "strong but slow," so he's been kinda destined to be bottom tier in any game that doesn't have the movement options Melee has. So it's kinda hard to buff Ganon without going overboard, and making him too fast or too strong.

 

[Wiley]

Ganon's throw should either kill at high percent or it should hoo-ha. His throw should kill earlier too at ledge like falcon's. His throw is well balanced to me and combos well early/mid

I have such mixed feelings about his ️️. It's like diddykongs except so much worse in general. It has higher swing potential... in that it can steal a stock from someone at the ledge or can follow up into kill options off tech chase reads... but it could be reworked. Maybe give the option to hit ️ again to turn it into a hitbox like Diddy's that's got a longer lag end but has strong KB. And I think it should travel a bit faster.

I'd keep most of him the same at this point, but I've wanted a non clone Ganon since Melee so I'm game for that whenever it finally happens.

A refelectable shadow ball like D3 Gordo instead of Warlock Punch for neutral ️. You could even have him punch out the projectile so it feels like he didn't change that much. Just make the start up way faster and less endlag. And the hitbox at the actual punch could be heavier KB than the orb but not what it is now.

Kinda messed up he doesn't have one yet, it's so canon.

 

[Almand]

Ganon's throw should either kill at high percent or it should hoo-ha. His throw should kill earlier too at ledge like falcon's. His throw is well balanced to me and combos well early/mid

I have such mixed feelings about his ️️. It's like diddykongs except so much worse in general. It has higher swing potential... in that it can steal a stock from someone at the ledge or can follow up into kill options off tech chase reads... but it could be reworked. Maybe give the option to hit ️ again to turn it into a hitbox like Diddy's that's got a longer lag end but has strong KB. And I think it should travel a bit faster.

I'd keep most of him the same at this point, but I've wanted a non clone Ganon since Melee so I'm game for that whenever it finally happens.

A refelectable shadow ball like D3 Gordo instead of Warlock Punch for neutral ️. You could even have him punch out the projectile so it feels like he didn't change that much. Just make the start up way faster and less endlag. And the hitbox at the actual punch could be heavier KB than the orb but not what it is now.

Kinda messed up he doesn't have one yet, it's so canon.

As cool as Warlock Punch is, a Dead Man's Volley sort of Neutral B would be SO COOL! Even if it sucked, it'd just be such a nice tribute, especially if they handled it with hype in mind (the inputs to reflect it back get closer and closer to a 1-2 frame window, to make it that much more competitive, but not necessarily overpowered). But I might just be fantasizing, really.

As for the throws, I don't really subscribe to the idea that Ganon should have a kill confirm, per se. I don't like confirms in general (even though I play Ryu in Sm4sh), and think they should all be 50/50s at best, mixups at worst. I tried to give him a kill throw in F-Throw (as it currently stands, it won't kill from the edge until 200% or so), but I feel his back throw should have some better knockback, too (It's weaker than Captain Falcon's, currently. The character that Ganon is meant to be a stronger version of). Comboing out of up and down throw, killing with forward and back could be fun, but I feel it'd make Ganon rely just a bit too much on his grab for my liking.

Overall, I like the idea of "This thing normally doesn't ___, let's do that." For example, barely any characters have a down throw that kills, so I made Pac-Man's Down Throw kill when I buffed him (in another post of mine). Not a ton of characters have a reliable kill throw in F-Throw, so let's give that to Ganon, plus it'll give a reason for why it does 13%. That sort of stuff. So, my thinking may be a little clouded from the start.

 

[spinalwolf]

Ganon's biggest issue is his mobility I would say. Maybe buffing that by increasing his ground and air speed seem like obvious ideas, but not so much so that it doesn't feel like Ganon anymore. I would also like to see Fair and Dair come out quicker and have less end lag. This way now Ganon's aerials are less punishable overall, give way to some interesting combos, and he can more safely space Fair in neutral. That's pretty much it. Fixing these issues would definitely make Ganon a much better character by a whole lot.

 

[Almand]

Ganon's biggest issue is his mobility I would say. Maybe buffing that by increasing his ground and air speed seem like obvious ideas, but not so much so that it doesn't feel like Ganon anymore. I would also like to see Fair and Dair come out quicker and have less end lag. This way now Ganon's aerials are less punishable overall, give way to some interesting combos, and he can more safely space Fair in neutral. That's pretty much it. Fixing these issues would definitely make Ganon a much better character by a whole lot.

I think Dair is fine how it is; it's a spike, and one of the strongest ones, at that, so coming out at frame 16 is justifiable. Maybe 1-2 frames quicker, but nothing ridiculous. Fair is frame 14 and not actually that strong. Bair (frame 10) is stronger, even. I think Fair could be frame 11 or 12 (or just strengthen it a little, like I tried to do in my buffs), Bair could serve to be a bit faster, but that might be delving into speeding Ganon up too much. It's really tricky to buff power characters because of things like that.

 

[King9999]

My buffs:

• Adjust bair's hitbox so it can't whiff against short characters when you short hop it.
• Give Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke armor while active. This would allow Ganon to approach characters with projectiles
• Make utilt cancelable
• Reduced end lag on dair and fair.

 

[Almand]

My buffs:

• Adjust bair's hitbox so it can't whiff against short characters when you short hop it.
• Give Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke armor while active. This would allow Ganon to approach characters with projectiles
• Make utilt cancelable
• Reduced end lag on dair and fair.

I agree with all of these. Up Tilt especially could be really interesting, because of its strong windbox. It'd still be punishable (especially if it's only cancelable starting frame 20 or something), but could lead to some mixups. Bair has little range around his arm, so giving a few lower hitboxes could make Ganon a lot more viable against characters like Pikachu. As it stands, Bair can barely hit characters like Mario, so I do think range is quite an issue. Armor on specials could be interesting, but I think having a ton of armor (Like Warlock Punch) would be a bit much. Something like Pit's Side B would be a good comparison.

 

[Xinc]

I don't have many problems with most normal/movement changes

* First hitbox of Down Smash - remove hitbox that sends opponent away (thigh)
* Swap KBG and BKB on Ganon's up throw
* Change Ganon's back throw from 5/5 to 2/8
* Keep default Fair
* Keep default Bair but also extend hitbox so it can hit a little lower
* Keep Dair damage, but can SHAC Dair

Quite personally, I wouldn't mind if Flame Choke was untechable (See if you can make it into a footstool animation after Ganon releases, since you can't tech a footstool)
* Dark Dive - remove RCO lag
* Aerudo - remove RCO lag

 

[Almand]

I don't have many problems with most normal/movement changes

* First hitbox of Down Smash - remove hitbox that sends opponent away (thigh)
* Swap KBG and BKB on Ganon's up throw
* Change Ganon's back throw from 5/5 to 2/8
* Keep default Fair
* Keep default Bair but also extend hitbox so it can hit a little lower
* Keep Dair damage, but can SHAC Dair

Quite personally, I wouldn't mind if Flame Choke was untechable (See if you can make it into a footstool animation after Ganon releases, since you can't tech a footstool)
* Dark Dive - remove RCO lag
* Aerudo - remove RCO lag

I agree with pretty much all of these. Up throw, I think, would make a better combo throw, since it can lead into juggle situations (whereas Captain Falcon can run up to catch Down Throw stuff at higher percents; Ganon is too slow to follow up past 20-30%). Back Throw can be a kill throw , Bair should be able to hit lower, Dair autocanceling would be very strong, but not OP (since it's a long animation), etc.

Fair, since it's so slow, could be either a bit stronger, or come out a bit faster. It's just a bad move overall; kills later than Bair, has more lag, cannot autocancel, comes out on frame 14, etc. It does good damage, 17/18%, but I feel that doesn't outweigh everything else.

I agree with removing RCO lag, but I don't really agree with the untechable flame choke UNLESS Side B to Down/Forward Tilt is no longer guaranteed (however few characters it's guaranteed on). Other than that, I do like the idea of a guaranteed tech-chase, since that's more of a mixup than a confirm.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do have a Ganondorf moveset hack available, but I'm in the process of updating it.

 

[Almand]

I do have a Ganondorf moveset hack available, but I'm in the process of updating it.

As much as I'd love to play that, I don't even have Smash for Wii U, only on 3DS. I have a Switch, but never got a Wii U. Good luck on the mod, though, I'd love to see it whenever it's updated!