How would this affect your character?

[kupo15]

Hi,
I don't know how many of you know what brawl+ is but its basically a project designed to make brawl more competitive like the previous two smash games by bringing back the mechanics that were found in smash 64.

How would removing the plummeting dair affect sonic given the fact that he is a combo machine in brawl+? Think about being able to Dair and stay in mid air AND being able to follow up after it because of hitstun. What would this improve about sonic and what would it take away and what do you think is best for sonic in brawl+ where he and many other characters already can do a lot more things.

I'm asking you because I don't know crap about sonic and I know such a code will help sheik, ZSS and probably TL.

Thanks for your time

 

[da K.I.D.]

first of all this will make zss's d air REALLY broke.

second, i predict that a controllable down air will set up for a ton of spring up air kills, but all in all, make sonic a worse character overall because using his spring will make hi more susceptible to landcamping.

id also just like to point out that brawl is just fine the way it is.

 

[ExCeL 52]

Yeah.. Zss's dair would be like hell... (restating)
Why dont you just play brawl the way it is? And get good at it?

 

[darkNES386]

It would help us if you list the primary changes in Brawl+ (hitstun, aerial cancels...). Sonic's biggest advantage is the ability to capitilize on mistakes. If aerials are easier to cancel he won't be able to punish opponents as much and everyone else will play/move faster lowering his one advantage.

I like the idea of canceling the dair though for springs and such.

 

[kupo15]

first of all this will make zss's d air REALLY broke.

second, i predict that a controllable down air will set up for a ton of spring up air kills, but all in all, make sonic a worse character overall because using his spring will make hi more susceptible to landcamping.

id also just like to point out that brawl is just fine the way it is.

Yeah.. Zss's dair would be like hell... (restating)
Why dont you just play brawl the way it is? And get good at it?

I did get somewhat good at it but brawl bores me and yes its a good game which is why I don't want to play melee. I enjoy b+ over melee nowadays. I don't want this thread to become a "join brawl+ thread" or w/e. I just want to know if you had l canceling and histun, would the plummeting dairs be more useful?

DarkNES:

No tripping
Auto l cancel
Hitstun
No lag on ledges
We are hoping to get a better momentum transfer from dash to air for better air speed
No decayed moves

 

[Browny]

no decayed moves

WTF

tornado, snake ftilt spam much?

 

[kupo15]

no decayed moves

WTF

tornado, snake ftilt spam much?

When you have hitstun, decayed moves means more spamming utilts. no decayed moves plus hitstun means quite a lot less. Its not as broken as one might think. And hitstun makes snakes first ftilt techable btw

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

In other words, it's a completly different game. Has anyone ever tried Brawl +? My Wii isn't hacked so I haven't yet.

How about leaving it how it is but making it so we can jump out anytime? XD

 

[kupo15]

or maybe allow you to jump out sooner? You should hack your wii..its simple xD

So I guess it can go either way. Thanks for your feedback

 

[Boxob.]

I personally enjoy this idea, lots of setups could be made out of a dair.

And while ZSS's dair would be 'broken', realize that falco's was the same, and he was faster, and was able to stun you. It wouldn't be nearly as bad, but just as avoidable. Smart playing is smart, try it.

I say go for it, sounds amazing.

 

[kupo15]

I personally enjoy this idea, lots of setups could be made out of a dair.

And while ZSS's dair would be 'broken', realize that falco's was the same, and he was faster, and was able to stun you. It wouldn't be nearly as bad, but just as avoidable. Smart playing is smart, try it.

I say go for it, sounds amazing.

Hmm interesting, I could have sworn that Sonic would have been the character that needs it...

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Make it so grounded springs don't go away until you spring jump again <3

 

[thecatinthehat]

*is horrified*.

I love dair the way it is.

 

[Spin-Dash]

The dair is so awesome as is, like CitH said.

Such a surprising maneuver, especially for pseudo-spiking with hitting opponents almost completely horizontal.

 

[darkNES386]

Hmm interesting, I could have sworn that Sonic would have been the character that needs it...

No tripping - Sonic is one of the few characters that can take advantage of an opponent tripping no matter what. Sonic's speed forces other players to keep more distance when they're on the defense, making it much harder to punish him when he trips.

Auto l cancel - Sonic's fair actually works best if used immediately when jumping and even during a short hop it cancels if done right away. His bair has no lag whatsover even if you start it as he's falling into the ground. His uair has less lag then the fair, but the second kick is actually much better than the first so there's no reason why you should be executing so close to the ground in the first place. His dair is like the only move that is quite punishable when poorly used. I think most of the Sonic's here have accepted it's prevention of being spammed with the height required to prevent lag.

Imagine how annoying a spring, lagless dair spamming Sonic would become.

Hitstun- Okay so everyone can combo easier right? Well the great thing about Sonic is that he can hit someone through the air>catchup with them before they hit the ground or even break out of their tumble and bair or shield grab or even start a jab-lock on them. He also can escape combos easier with this spring right now.

Sonic has a hard enough time swinging the momentum of the battle in his favor.

No lag on ledges - I'm confused about this one. Does that mean that you have no invincy frames when you grab the ledge? What about direction you're facing. Will you need to be facing stage or will it still auto grab if you're the other way? Sonic's up B alreay doesn't grab the ledge unless he's really really really close as he starts it.

Sonic has one of the best recoveries in the game... according to smashboards "tier recovery list" he's like 3rd or 5th I think. If anything, Sonic really uses those invincy frames to his advantge when edge hogging. Is this to prevent edge stalling?

We are hoping to get a better momentum transfer from dash to air for better air speed Sonic is fast on the ground but slow in the air. If you're telling me that we could make him jump more relative to his ground speed... this might be the one thing that would make Sonic ridiculously good. He runs across final destination in 57 frames. Just think then how fast and how much hang time he could get. Air Jordan... eat your heart out.

No decayed moves - This would make it easier for Sonic to KO, but it would probably do the same for everyone else. The only beef I have with this is that it makes people less creative since they are no longer forced to mix up stuff as much.

 

[Napilopez]

Thanks for taking the time out to ask us rather than just making uninformed decisions Kupo.

Lets please not turn this into an anti brawl+ thread.

Anyways, I'm with CiTH and others here. I say DO NOT remove the Dairs falling ability from Sonic. For Shiek, ZSS, and TL, the falling motion doesn't really serve a purpose. Its just there because because they felt like making it like that. Sonic's Dair, however, is there because Sonic is at his core, a character that thrives on punishment and persuing his opponents. If you remove the falling action of his Dair, Than Sonic is left extremely crippled in his ability to pursue an opponent, and reset the situation should he need to.

Removing the falling motion would also remove the cool trick of doing multiple dairs on a grounded spring D:

Furthermore, Sonic's Dair isn't exactly impressive in the first place as an aerial. It semi spikes at the beginning, but has an 11 frame startup I believe, on a barely disjointed downwards oriented hitbox. The stall-then-fall action also allows for neat-o mindgames and trickery.

I also cannot think of anything the dair does that cannot be achieved similar through another move. Nair comes out more quickly and has a pretty horizontal hitbox like the first part of the move, and you can use Uair if you want to send them upwards. Autocancelled normal Dairs are usually quick enough for followups anyways. The fact that you are implementing auto L cancel makees just further drives me away from removing the plummeting motion.

There is also the issue that Sonic's dair last for a pretty darn long time, so I doubt Sonic will be able to do much to followup anyways.

Btw, its nice to heard Sonic is a combo machine. Just how much of a combo machine?

 

[kupo15]

Wow! These are probably the best character boards on the entire site! Thanks for having an interest in helping me out unlike the other boards I posted this thread in!

Imagine how annoying a spring, lagless dair spamming Sonic would become.

I already know haha.

No lag on ledges - I'm confused about this one. Does that mean that you have no invincy frames when you grab the ledge? What about direction you're facing. Will you need to be facing stage or will it still auto grab if you're the other way? Sonic's up B alreay doesn't grab the ledge unless he's really really really close as he starts it.

When you grab the ledge, instead of waiting a second to be able to jump off, you can instantly react from the ledge like in the past two games. You can still backwards grab and you still get your invincibility. I also forgot to mention that all characters except Lucario can't grab the ledge while traveling upwards in their up b just like that past two games. All side bs auto sweetspot just like the normal game

Is this to prevent edge stalling?

Nope it is to allow better options from the ledge by being able to react instantly from grabbing it

Sonic is fast on the ground but slow in the air. If you're telling me that we could make him jump more relative to his ground speed... this might be the one thing that would make Sonic ridiculously good. He runs across final destination in 57 frames. Just think then how fast and how much hang time he could get. Air Jordan... eat your heart out.

Yea lol he would be the new melee falcon. We are not sure how we want to approach this yet.

This would make it easier for Sonic to KO, but it would probably do the same for everyone else. The only beef I have with this is that it makes people less creative since they are no longer forced to mix up stuff as much.

In a way but hitstun plus a strong decay system means utilt spams to kill percents which don't take skill. I forgot to add that the code is no decay plus the fresh bonus so you are rewarded for saving your kill move but not punished for using the kill move in a combo. If you think about it, if you have a strategy that works then why should you be punished if your opponent can't counter it? The strategy for mixing up your moves should be because your opponent forces it instead of the game mechanic. We are however trying to get stale damage only to have some sort of stale system in place, but brawls is just too drastic..

Thanks for taking the time out to ask us rather than just making uninformed decisions Kupo.

Thanks for being so helpful

Lets please not turn this into an anti brawl+ thread.

please ^_^

Autocancelled normal Dairs are usually quick enough for followups anyways. The fact that you are implementing auto L cancel makees just further drives me away from removing the plummeting motion.

I was thinking that once you use the AC dair, they are out of the hitstun so it might not make a difference if this is plummeting. I can't believe I forgot to mention this, we also increased FFing and gravity in the downwards direction only so that it doesn't mess with recoveries.

There is also the issue that Sonic's dair last for a pretty darn long time, so I doubt Sonic will be able to do much to followup anyways.

Well then how about shortening the plummeting affect then? So you can react in lets same 1/5 the time?

Btw, its nice to heard Sonic is a combo machine. Just how much of a combo machine?

I've never seen a top notch sonic main play but from my friend who is pretty good I can imagine he will be beastly. Dark Sonic also talks him up so you should ask him. We currently don't have any sonic mains videos up but it would be nice to see some!


Here are two combo vids in case anyone is interested
[URL="http://gameroom.mlgpro.com/view/8Rweqc4SADM.html"]Kupo combo vid (Some sonic in here)
Shanus combo vid[/URL]

 

[yes]

Keep Sonic's dair the way it is now. It's an excellent way for him to keep his momentum going when he's smashed upward.

Imagine how annoying a spring, lagless dair spamming Sonic would become.

That'd be horrible. I would never want that, even as a Sonic user.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Make is so that his down-b hurts people as it charges. =P

But, yeah. Keep dair the same, but also give the ability to l-cancel it.

 

[AquaTech]

Disregard this post, sorry.

 

[Revven]

Brawl+ would screw up any character I use because it is a warped game style that Nintendo and Sakurai don't approve of.

kupo didn't ask for your opinion of Brawl+. If you don't want to help, then you don't need to say ****.

 

[aeghrur]

Kupo, I was wondering, could you make D-air so it's like this?
The Dair keeps it's stalling then very fast fall characteristics. So, if you use dair, it'll air stall, then you fall very quickly with a lot of downwards momentum just like right now.
However, you also make it so that the hitbox lasts shorter and that the move auto cancels as it hits the ground.
Now, why would you want this?
Well, this gives Sonics/ZSS/Shiek mains the option of getting to the ground faster, and being able to chase better due to no lag on the move. The decreased hitbox length means you can react faster as well, so you can still survive if you should D-air off stage(ZSS, Shiek mains). Of course, I think you should still keep the rest of the moves abilities the same, because I like the surprising effect of a D-air semi spike, lol.
Of course, you could just not do this and keep L-canceling in, because I know that Brawl+ is limited on space to use. =/ But this is just an idea.

 

[leafgreen386]

Kupo, I was wondering, could you make D-air so it's like this?
The Dair keeps it's stalling then very fast fall characteristics. So, if you use dair, it'll air stall, then you fall very quickly with a lot of downwards momentum just like right now.
However, you also make it so that the hitbox lasts shorter and that the move auto cancels as it hits the ground.
Now, why would you want this?
Well, this gives Sonics/ZSS/Shiek mains the option of getting to the ground faster, and being able to chase better due to no lag on the move. The decreased hitbox length means you can react faster as well, so you can still survive if you should D-air off stage(ZSS, Shiek mains). Of course, I think you should still keep the rest of the moves abilities the same, because I like the surprising effect of a D-air semi spike, lol.
Of course, you could just not do this and keep L-canceling in, because I know that Brawl+ is limited on space to use. =/ But this is just an idea.

Well, the dair already has relatively low lag with the introduction of the aerial lag reduction code. Right now, even if you don't use it from high enough to finish it before you land, you'll still be able to act fairly quickly out of it.

Furthermore, the changes you're talking about are outside of the realm of possibility. We can't make one part of an attack last a super long time and another last a super short time. We can only change the overall speed of a move. So if we were to speed it up, it would effectively lose the stall part of the move, with the trade-off of allowing sonic to act more quickly afterward.

I'd also like to note that even if sonic mains overall want the dair to be changed, that there are no guarantees it will get into the final version of brawl+, whether this be because of balance or space concerns (or both).

Brawl+ would screw up any character I use because it is a warped game style that Nintendo and Sakurai don't approve of.

We'll tell you when we actually care what sakurai or nintendo think of this. For now, keep your BS out of this thread. Just because a thread has "brawl+" in the title does not mean it is a place for you to bash it.

 

[aeghrur]

Well, the dair already has relatively low lag with the introduction of the aerial lag reduction code. Right now, even if you don't use it from high enough to finish it before you land, you'll still be able to act fairly quickly out of it.

Furthermore, the changes you're talking about are outside of the realm of possibility. We can't make one part of an attack last a super long time and another last a super short time. We can only change the overall speed of a move. So if we were to speed it up, it would effectively lose the stall part of the move, with the trade-off of allowing sonic to act more quickly afterward.

I'd also like to note that even if sonic mains overall want the dair to be changed, that there are no guarantees it will get into the final version of brawl+, whether this be because of balance or space concerns (or both).

Oh no, I'm not talking about the D-air semi spike being super long.
I just want that still in, lol. I mean, if you make the attack faster, it should still keep the same properties right? Ex. If I use a Spindash charge, and it charges in 1 second instead of 2, I should still be able to cancel it before 1 second right?
And if it's like that, I think the dair is good enough as it is. =/
I totally understand the space issues concerning Brawl+ too man. =/

 

[leafgreen386]

No. If we were to say... halve the animation speed, then everything would be over in half the time it normally is. The stall would be half as long, the semi-spike hitbox would be half as long, and the normal hitbox would be half as long. The entire animation would be half as long. So we wouldn't be able to keep the longer stall while making the rest of the attack end quickly. Essentially, the game is skipping frames of the attack when we speed it up.

 

[kupo15]

So here is a vid for the curious people who asked what sonic is like in b+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCKJLMaJN2U&eurl

The hitstun is not as much as it seems

 

[RenegadeRaven]

^^ Oh snap, Sonic's a beast! =o

 

[zxeon]

Brawl+ would screw up any character I use because it is a warped game style that Nintendo and Sakurai don't approve of.

Nintendo doesn't approve of hard drives for the Wii either. Nintendo is stupid.

Don't troll here, I just reported your post enjoy your infraction.

 

[kupo15]

^^ Oh snap, Sonic's a beast! =o

Yes he is. Funny how a small tweak in the game mechanics present in the regular brawl does to improve sonic...and balance everyone

 

[Tenki]

Nintendo doesn't approve of hard drives for the Wii either. Nintendo is stupid.

Don't troll here, I just reported your post enjoy your infraction.

The setting makes it oh-so-funny.


That Brawl+ video with Cape was pretty cool.

seriously, can you imagine VSDJ > retreating WD, or VSDJ> down AD < F-smash? It'd basically be a spindash > F-smash lol

 

[kupo15]

I don't know what any of those acronyms mean! o_O

Sonic is the biggest mystery in brawl

 

[Tenki]

I don't know what any of those acronyms mean! o_O

Sonic is the biggest mystery in brawl

well, AD is airdodge. Like, SHAD = short hop airdodge, right?

4 - What do all those acronyms and letters mean!?

SD = Spin Dash (Hop) (Side-B)
SC = Spin Charge (Down-B)
ASC = Aerial Spin Charge (air Down-B)
SDR = Spin Dash Roll (the grounded rolling attack)
SDJ = Spin Dash Jump (jump attack that can be done out of a SDR)
FSJ = Footstool jump; gfsj is a grounded footstool (done on a grounded opponent)
IASA = Interruptible-as-soon-as (it's lame, and I didn't come up with it - basically frames where you can attack before the animation is over)
SDSC = Spin Dash shield cancel (hitting shield to cancel a side-B's charge)
DJ = Double jump
FT = Foxtrot
DD = Dashdance
DDP = Dashdance pivot
ONN = omnomnom frames (existence pending...)

==============
But you know, it's all too weird to memorize it all, so here's the system:
Prefixes:
A- - aerial
G- - grounded
i- - invincible/instant
V - Vertical

----
SD is spin dash. Usually refers to side-B, but if followed by other letters, can refer to moves.
SC is spin charge. Usually refers to down-B. Can also refer to shield cancel, but think it through and just use the one that works better in context.

suffixes:
-J - jump.
-R - roll.

==============

Examples:
SDR = Spindash Roll.
VSDJ = Vertical Spin Dash Jump.

See? It's not too bad =D

;D

TL;DR:
In Brawl+, Sonic can wavedash out of/cancel spindashes from any point during the roll.

Even out of a grounded down-B/SDR.

That's so kickass, but I don't have Brawl+ so I can't do it myself.

I'll just have to find the Brawl+ Sonic mains and feed them ideas or something, lmao

 

[zxeon]

Good god, Sonic is a game unto himself!

 

[kupo15]

well, AD is airdodge. Like, SHAD = short hop airdodge, right?




;D

TL;DR:
In Brawl+, Sonic can wavedash out of/cancel spindashes from any point during the roll.

Even out of a grounded down-B/SDR.

That's so kickass, but I don't have Brawl+ so I can't do it myself.

I'll just have to find the Brawl+ Sonic mains and feed them ideas or something, lmao

Wavedashing won't be in the final version so no worries there. Why can't you get brawl+? Its easy enough to get

 

[Browny]

I was gonna get brawl+, planned on playing it a bit at tourney last week on someone elses console before i soft modded mine.

and then the soft modded wii crashed and wouldnt load any games

so ill pass for now lol...

 

[kupo15]

I was gonna get brawl+, planned on playing it a bit at tourney last week on someone elses console before i soft modded mine.

and then the soft modded wii crashed and wouldnt load any games

so ill pass for now lol...

what? how is that possible? He must have done something really stupid because it doesn't harm your wii if you don't ddo stupid things D:

 

[zxeon]

I was gonna get brawl+, planned on playing it a bit at tourney last week on someone elses console before i soft modded mine.

and then the soft modded wii crashed and wouldnt load any games

so ill pass for now lol...

It sound like his Wii's laser finally gave out on him. Hacking your Wii can't damage your disk drive. It wasn't the result of hacking his Wii rather a manufacturer defect. Nintendo fixes units with defective lasers for free.

If your friend doesn't know tell him this.

 

[AquaTech]

Wow. I got an infraction for "minor flaming" because I said Brawl+ would affect my characters negatively.....

 

[zxeon]

Wow. I got an infraction for "minor flaming" because I said Brawl+ would affect my characters negatively.....

Sounds like you want another. Keep conversation relevant.

 

[AquaTech]

Okay I will zxeon.