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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

L

Linguini

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
4,698
Location
Weston, Florida
Dope combo but none of those are your og techs LOL I been doing reverse jab out of dthrow for ages and I was the first one to stomp wavelamd usmash with ganon against tink at fcd...9 years ago lmfao
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Linguini said:
Dope combo but none of those are your og techs LOL I been doing reverse jab out of dthrow for ages and I was the first one to stomp wavelamd usmash with ganon against tink at fcd...9 years ago lmfao
Click to expand...
Lol why not? I came up with it myself! Granted it doesn't take a genius to know that downthrow to jab is a true combo.
 
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X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
Going to Nebulous Prime tomorrow. Pretty excited. This will be my first out of state tournament since my western ny days.

Anyway, what I really wanted to make this post about is Peach. It really baffles me how often Peach players seem to be able to get back from the ledge with nothing but basic options. I believe Ganon, and many other characters, should be able to cover all her basic options from the ledge from several positions.

So I did some labbing last night and found a way to cover all Peach's basic ledge options on reaction. I only looked at this from one position, but I'm sure you can cover them all from other positions too.

You want to position yourself just at the edge of ftilt range, so that it clips her from the ledge. Doesn't need to be too exact, it's more important that you're out of her getup attack range.

Neutral getup --> ftilt, dtilt
Roll --> turn grab
Jump --> uair
Getup attack --> dash jc grab, ftilt, dtilt

There are obviously a lot of other things that work. But this is just what I've been able to confirm is easy to react to. By that, I mean that in all these cases, I'm giving Ganon 25 frames, or 250 ms (average human reaction time to visual stimulus) to react.

One other thing to keep in mind is that covering ledge jump after waiting 25 frames leaves Peach in the actionable falling animation for a few frames. If Peach is frame perfect, she will trade Nair with you. This is still favorable most of the time, but something to keep in mind. Her other option is airdodge. But if you fast fall ac your uair, you can grab her when her invincibility is gone and before she's actionable.

Last thing is that mixing in dtilt makes things more tricky. It requires slightly faster reactions on the neutral getup. And if you want to save a frame and be in the crouching position from the start, you need to be able to dash out of crouch consistently. It's a surprisingly hard tech. But if you can pull it off, dtilt will lead to uair at some percents.
 
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RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
X WaNtEd X said:
Going to Nebulous Prime tomorrow. Pretty excited. This will be my first out of state tournament since my western ny days.

Anyway, what I really wanted to make this post about is Peach. It really baffles me how often Peach players seem to be able to get back from the ledge with nothing but basic options. I believe Ganon, and many other characters, should be able to cover all her basic options from the ledge from several positions.

So I did some labbing last night and found a way to cover all Peach's basic ledge options on reaction. I only looked at this from one position, but I'm sure you can cover them all from other positions too.

You want to position yourself just at the edge of ftilt range, so that it clips her from the ledge. Doesn't need to be too exact, it's more important that you're out of her getup attack range.

Neutral getup --> ftilt, dtilt
Roll --> turn grab
Jump --> uair
Getup attack --> dash jc grab, ftilt, dtilt

There are obviously a lot of other things that work. But this is just what I've been able to confirm is easy to react to. By that, I mean that in all these cases, I'm giving Ganon 25 frames, or 250 ms (average human reaction time to visual stimulus) to react.

One other thing to keep in mind is that covering ledge jump after waiting 25 frames leaves Peach in the actionable falling animation for a few frames. If Peach is frame perfect, she will trade Nair with you. This is still favorable most of the time, but something to keep in mind. Her other option is airdodge. But if you fast fall ac your uair, you can grab her when her invincibility is gone and before she's actionable.

Last thing is that mixing in dtilt makes things more tricky. It requires slightly faster reactions on the neutral getup. And if you want to save a frame and be in the crouching position from the start, you need to be able to dash out of crouch consistently. It's a surprisingly hard tech. But if you can pull it off, dtilt will lead to uair at some percents.
Click to expand...
Damn I need to update the golden nuggets thread.

I also see @Prince_Abu lurking hehehe
 
tm

tm

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
819
Location
NWOH
X WaNtEd X said:
Going to Nebulous Prime tomorrow. Pretty excited. This will be my first out of state tournament since my western ny days.

Anyway, what I really wanted to make this post about is Peach. It really baffles me how often Peach players seem to be able to get back from the ledge with nothing but basic options. I believe Ganon, and many other characters, should be able to cover all her basic options from the ledge from several positions.

So I did some labbing last night and found a way to cover all Peach's basic ledge options on reaction. I only looked at this from one position, but I'm sure you can cover them all from other positions too.

You want to position yourself just at the edge of ftilt range, so that it clips her from the ledge. Doesn't need to be too exact, it's more important that you're out of her getup attack range.

Neutral getup --> ftilt, dtilt
Roll --> turn grab
Jump --> uair
Getup attack --> dash jc grab, ftilt, dtilt

There are obviously a lot of other things that work. But this is just what I've been able to confirm is easy to react to. By that, I mean that in all these cases, I'm giving Ganon 25 frames, or 250 ms (average human reaction time to visual stimulus) to react.

One other thing to keep in mind is that covering ledge jump after waiting 25 frames leaves Peach in the actionable falling animation for a few frames. If Peach is frame perfect, she will trade Nair with you. This is still favorable most of the time, but something to keep in mind. Her other option is airdodge. But if you fast fall ac your uair, you can grab her when her invincibility is gone and before she's actionable.

Last thing is that mixing in dtilt makes things more tricky. It requires slightly faster reactions on the neutral getup. And if you want to save a frame and be in the crouching position from the start, you need to be able to dash out of crouch consistently. It's a surprisingly hard tech. But if you can pull it off, dtilt will lead to uair at some percents.
Click to expand...
I love seeing stuff like this. Will test and collab at some point.

Did you use 25 frames, or 250ms?
25 frames is actually ~417ms, which is EXTREMELY generous, super easy.
250ms is 15 frames which is tough but plausible.
 
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X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
tm said:
I love seeing stuff like this. Will test and collab at some point.

Did you use 25 frames, or 250ms?
25 frames is actually ~417 frames, which is EXTREMELY generous, super easy.
250ms is 15 frames which is tough but plausible.
Click to expand...
Oh my b. Yeah I knew that...

I used 25 frames. That means covering Peach is actually super easy lol. There should be no excuses for not punishing her from the ledge.
 
W

Waldoring

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
69
Location
PGH
Just got back from my second MOAL, definitely played better: http://moal.challonge.com/MoaL123MeleeSingles, tagged as 20GT.

5th is a pretty damn good improvement imo, though the only notable out-of-towner was Colbol. I did pretty well vs everyone sans Colbol (obviously), the fox who knocked me out of loser's, and a pikachu who I played right before Colbol. Surprisingly, I did really well vs a pretty good puff and someone from the WV PR.

I said I'd get vids, but the venue had no place to stand up my phone and the guy I came with always had games to play at the same time. Next time I guess.

Against pikachu, how should I approach neutral? My go-to for fast, shffl-y characters like pikachu, fox, falcon, etc. is to space ac bairs, pivot jabbing/ftilting as needed to punish approaches, abusing platforms for extra mobility/mixups. That didn't seem to work very well; I couldn't react to dd nair close to consistently. Also, pikachu's uair oos and falling uair made shielding a non-option, so I couldn't shieldgrab slower approaches. I took the set with a lot of reads and cheesey low ftilt edgeguards, but I only won neutral 1/6 of the time.

Vs. Colbol (marth), I wasn't nearly as lost as I expected to be. I got 2 and 3 stocked, but it's not like I did poorly in neutral or missed punishes, it's just that I could never get back to stage . By game 2, every edgeguard was some setup into dair spike. Does reverse sweetspot up-b avoid tipper fsmash/dair? It seems like such a slow option that would get edgehogged, but I guess I haven't tried it enough to say that.

That's essentially the same problem I had with in the fox matchup; I was dead the moment I got offstage without a jump. I guess the moral of the story is to not get off stage at low %, nothing else to it.
 
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Divinokage

Divinokage

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Joined
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Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
If you are off-stage vs Marth, you can't come back no matter which options you choose to do. If you go low you have to hope to absorb his badly spaced move or if you can DI high which you should be doing as much as possible then maybe you can avoid an aerial.
 
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O

Oldiz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
125
Go low and walltech, what you do after that either directly punish his edgeguard or airdodge back on stage. When it comes to recovery versus marth it's really about making it as hard as possible.

Also getting 5th as 16th seed is amazing!
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
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Messages
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The back country, GA
W Waldoring against pika I like to bait her nair approach and immediately wd back when I think it's coming so you can shieldgrab it or have more options to react to it. I treat her nair approach almost like falcon's, maintain some space/respect it when you have to. It'll frustrate them if you space well.
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Oldiz said:
Go low and walltech, what you do after that either directly punish his edgeguard or airdodge back on stage. When it comes to recovery versus marth it's really about making it as hard as possible.

Also getting 5th as 16th seed is amazing!
Click to expand...
What are you wall teching? You can't do it against every move.
 
O

Oldiz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
125
Fsmash and downtilt at higher percents is very much techable, especially tipper.
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

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Messages
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Oldiz said:
Fsmash and downtilt at higher percents is very much techable, especially tipper.
Click to expand...
That's if they decide to stay on stage, the better Marths usually decide to go out there and kill you no matter where you decide to go. There's every reason for them to punish low recoverys with reverse up-B or weak hit Fairs. They can also reverse Fair + most of the time you'll get spiked. They won't go for tipper unless you are above the stage or in the worst case for them they will grab the edge and reset the edgeguard. If they don't do any of that then they dont know the matchup.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
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Messages
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The back country, GA
A simple ledgehop dair kills Ganon's low recovery and is rarely techable when spaced and timed right.

...IF he has time to grab ledge, which he will more times than not
 
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ForTheLulz

ForTheLulz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
104
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Maryland
where's the gif where fox is waveshining ganon across the stage and then fox overextends with an offstage shine and ganon ledgehop upairs fox?
 
B

Bwmat

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Messages
665
More and more I'm convinced Marth is actually hopeless for Ganon. It seems he can punish everything on reaction if he plays right, and there's no real openings...

Thank God for Falcon.

And I can still beat marths below my level, but those at/above wreck me.

Edit: also, **** shiek. Falco didn't work out too well there either lol
 
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spider_sense

spider_sense

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
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Miami, FL (Ives Dairy)
Some spectacular Ganon play at Tgl yesterday. I'm using this crappy iPad so I can't time stamp any matches. Twitch.TV/trailgamingleague. Rockcrock and Linguini put in some work. Always hyped to watch them play.
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
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Messages
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The back country, GA
spider_sense spider_sense you completely wrecked face!! I just saw your sets with rockcrock and Emilio. I would've utilt'd both of them at least once

:denzel:

just saying lmao. So much good Ganon ****, only thing missing is Tipman and sober ACE. Watching you vs Lz now.

I hate how the twitch app forces you to watch in MEGA HD on any tournament that didn't have a huge number of viewers. My Wi-Fi signal isn't very strong and it keeps having to load, **** this **** I'll watch melee in 360-480p lol

EVERYONE: If shamunt doesn't put all the matches on YouTube the twitch is TrailGamingLeague.
 
RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Messages
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Well that took a long time to look through all that. Sick stuff by Spider Sense and Mr. LZ, especially him beating Shiz that was nuts.
 
PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
Linguini said:
Nice skills on the bass, Joe ;).

I have an EP coming out on September 19th on beatport, check out the previews here!

https://soundcloud.com/expanded-records/meees-do-you-exp114-out-19092016

Would appreciate it if the ganon homies headed over to my artist page on facebook and gave me a like; need all the support I can get! Here's the link : https://www.facebook.com/Meeels66/
Click to expand...
Thanks meeeeeels lol. Liked up! Keep killin it out there.

**** yes good **** by the FL ganons (as per usual). I'm gonna have to give all that a nice look when I get home. Keep it up
 
Renth

Renth

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Joined
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Messages
5,938
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Colver, PA
How to start a who's got the biggest **** competition on ganon forum:

I did insert thing here First
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Messages
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The back country, GA
Spider_sense vs RockCrock
https://youtu.be/3lNkPMyRSMg

Spider_sense vs Oaty (peach)
https://youtu.be/W6Z5a6Hs8tU

Linguini vs Envy (puff)
https://youtu.be/PZbkXw8a9UU

Spider_sense vs Barraca
https://youtu.be/dI2reF-Avx8

Linguini vs Pure (peach)
https://youtu.be/QeoDQGYuRqo

Spider_sense vs flipsy (climbers)
https://youtu.be/of_T-NPkNqE

Spider_sense vs Linguini
https://youtu.be/ZAVok2eUMUQ

Spider_sense vs Mr Lz (G&W/martha)
https://youtu.be/vbWj4wje5_s

Spider_sense vs Blea (winners)
https://youtu.be/ZnKMRKK_-BQ

Spider_sense vs Blea (LF)
https://youtu.be/aztZQWRU5Xk
 
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