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How to Practice Frame Perfect Nairs

Boofed

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
23
Introduction
Link can perform all his aerials except for dair immediately after a full-hop nair. I found that it is especially difficult to perform nair+fair in one full-hop, so I took it to 20XX. The results were astonishing and I learned a bit about how jumping works in this game. My results may help players practice moves out of nair or performing nair as soon as possible out of the "kneebend" animation with frame perfect precision.

Method
I am using 20XX v4.05 on the Dolphin emulator with a N64/Gamecube controller to USB adapter from raphnet.net and a standard Nintendo Gamecube controller. 20XX allows the user to pause and then advance frame after frame when in the developer mode. When skipping through frames in this way, the user needs to hold an input on the controller and then skip forward to feed that information to the game.

Results
Let's examine what happens when we try to perform the nair+fair full-hop combo with no lag. That is, a new animation will start immediately after the last one ended and all animations will play back-to-back. Image 1 shows Link with the hitbubble/hitbox option enabled and at the top of the window the frame counter is visible. Refer to the top line of text only, as this data refers to Link.
In image 2, I have given the command "X" on my controller and we can see link in the "kneebend" animation, as he prepares to jump. This animation will last 6 frames before link goes airborne.
However, we can provide an attack input on the very last frame (frame 5), as seen in image 3, and Link will perform an aerial attack, as seen in image 4. Note that either all or most attacks begin on frame 1 instead of frame 0. This is true for both Link's nair and fair.
The hitbox for Link's nair comes out on frame 4 and lasts until frame 39. However, it is interruptible as soon as (IASA) frame 36 [1], as shown in image 5.
That means I can issue an input when I am in frame 35 and interrupt the nair on frame 36. I choose to interrupt the nair with a fair on frame 35, as shown in image 6.
The hitbox for Link's fair comes out on frame 14. However, Link only gets 12 frames to perform the fair before colliding with the ground. Image 7 shows Link on frame 12 of the fair animation and image 8 shows Link hitting the ground immediately after fair's 12th frame.
Link has failed to perform the full-hop nair+fair combo in this instance, even though I provided frame perfect input.

However, Link can still perform the combo. I attempt it once more, but this time changing the frame timing a little bit. I make Link jump just like the first time around, but this time I do things a little differently after his "kneebend" animation. Image 9 shows Link 1 frame after his "kneebend" animation. In this frame, he has begun his full-hop animation called "jump" and he is on the 0th frame.
Now I input the A button to make Link perform his nair, just like last time. Again, on frame 35 I hold forward and A to interrupt the nair on frame 36 as before. However, this time Link has 2 more frames for which his fair can come out. Image 10 shows Link on frame 14 of fair and image 11 shows just how close Link is to the ground.
Thus, I have successfully performed the full-hop nair+fair combo. However, it required me to not input commands as fast as possible. Rather, there has to be a 1 frame wait time between jumping and nairing or else this will not work. There is not enough time for the fair to come out if I issue the nair command on frame 1 of "jump".

Discussion
Link can perform the full-hop nair+fair combo only if there is a 1 frame wait time between Link's jump squat "kneebend" animation and his "jump" animation. My hypothesis on why the 1 frame wait time is required is that the full momentum of jump is not achieved until frame 0 of animation "jump". This is useful because it can allow players to practice using aerials out of Link's nair with frame perfect precision, so long as they get the timing right on their jump. Alternatively, this can be used to practice using nair out of Link's "kneebend" animation as soon as possible, since the fair hitbox won't come out if the nair was frame perfect.

References
[1] http://smashboards.com/threads/link-hitboxes-and-frame-data.306010/
 

Boofed

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
23
Doing attack on the first aerial frame of jump causes gravity to affect the character on that frame, where it doesn't do so if you do nothing. http://smashboards.com/threads/shortened-jumps-via-frame-perfect-aerials.322505/

Same applies to air friction, so frame perfect aerials reduces both the initial vertical and horizontal speed a bit and thus the jump arc becomes bit lower and shorter.
Excellent find! I wish I could have done more reading on the subject before drafting this post, but I've been short on time. It looks like the code applies gravity constraints on aerials, so doing a faster aerial results in a shorter jump. Very cool!
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
Is there any frame leniency while performing this tech or is it pretty much a frame perfect thing. I understand gravity acts on a frame perfect aireal and shortens the jump arc. But if Nair is delayed 1 frame and is IASA frame 36, that's only 37 frames. + 14 for the first hit of fair. Full hops aireal time is 42 frames total and this tech takes 41 to complete.
 
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Boofed

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
23
Is there any frame leniency while performing this tech or is it pretty much a frame perfect thing. I understand gravity acts on a frame perfect aireal and shortens the jump arc. But if Nair is delayed 1 frame and is IASA frame 36, that's only 37 frames. + 14 for the first hit of fair. Full hops aireal time is 42 frames total and this tech takes 41 to complete.
I did try performing the tech with nair input on frame 1 of jump, rather than frame 0. That is, nair comes out on frame 2 of jump instead of frame 1. The fair fails to come out in this instance. So I think it is frame perfect.
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
I did try performing the tech with nair input on frame 1 of jump, rather than frame 0. That is, nair comes out on frame 2 of jump instead of frame 1. The fair fails to come out in this instance. So I think it is frame perfect.
Great... Link has so many awesome things he can do that have to be frame perfect. Like his perfect wave lands (like Ganon) or walk off bomb throw back ledge grab.
 

kingPiano

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
574
He also has a Frame perfect AC SH Nair iirc.

Wow I didn't know Link's PWL was frame prefect I get it pretty consistently now I thought it was a 2 frame window. Wish it was like Ganon's DJ PWL, those have a ton of leniency.
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
He also has a Frame perfect AC SH Nair iirc.

Wow I didn't know Link's PWL was frame prefect I get it pretty consistently now I thought it was a 2 frame window. Wish it was like Ganon's DJ PWL, those have a ton of leniency.
Oh yeah if Had Ganons DJ perfect wave land he would be a total beast. Any way yeah PWL are only a one frame window tho I find them to be fairly easy as well.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
He also has a Frame perfect AC SH Nair iirc.

Wow I didn't know Link's PWL was frame prefect I get it pretty consistently now I thought it was a 2 frame window. Wish it was like Ganon's DJ PWL, those have a ton of leniency.
I can't confirm this, but I know the gravity glitch exists in Melee, and if so, it might make the frame perfect AC SH nair impossible. I seem to recall the frame-perfect AC SH Nair was determined to exist by taking his nair AC window and comparing it to the SH timing, but the gravity glitch reduces SH airtime at least a frame IIRC. Nair is listed as AC 32>, and his SH airtime is 32. Assuming he lands on frame 33, and the nair ACs 32 onward [what I was told it means], then the tech is either not frame perfect [a nair on frame 2 of airtime will land frame 33, which is 32 of the nair, ACing], or you have to be in frame 32 onward to autocancel, aka frame 33, and I *think* the gravity glitch would stop it. The third alternative is that the gravity glitch removes 2 frames of airtime and you must actually hit the nair only frame 2 of airtime (>_>).

Whoever is testing stuff in 20XX, if they could frame advance this, I'm curious...

For the original post, Link's dair hits frame 13, and his fair hits frame 14, so unless there's some weird collision detection that makes Link land at least 2 frames sooner using dair compared to using fair, he can do nair dair. If you tested with the second method already, then... it wouldn't have been that practical anyway?
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
The third alternative is that the gravity glitch removes 2 frames of airtime and you must actually hit the nair only frame 2 of airtime (>_>).
Yes, after some testing I'm fairly confindent this is the case and also what was meant. So frame perfect as in you need to hit nair exactly on frame 2.
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
I can't confirm this, but I know the gravity glitch exists in Melee, and if so, it might make the frame perfect AC SH nair impossible. I seem to recall the frame-perfect AC SH Nair was determined to exist by taking his nair AC window and comparing it to the SH timing, but the gravity glitch reduces SH airtime at least a frame IIRC. Nair is listed as AC 32>, and his SH airtime is 32. Assuming he lands on frame 33, and the nair ACs 32 onward [what I was told it means], then the tech is either not frame perfect [a nair on frame 2 of airtime will land frame 33, which is 32 of the nair, ACing], or you have to be in frame 32 onward to autocancel, aka frame 33, and I *think* the gravity glitch would stop it. The third alternative is that the gravity glitch removes 2 frames of airtime and you must actually hit the nair only frame 2 of airtime (>_>).

Whoever is testing stuff in 20XX, if they could frame advance this, I'm curious...

For the original post, Link's dair hits frame 13, and his fair hits frame 14, so unless there's some weird collision detection that makes Link land at least 2 frames sooner using dair compared to using fair, he can do nair dair. If you tested with the second method already, then... it wouldn't have been that practical anyway?
I know that link Dair does make his ECB stretch fairly far below him but I haven't done much testing at all on his normals and aireals.
 

kingPiano

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
574
I can't confirm this, but I know the gravity glitch exists in Melee, and if so, it might make the frame perfect AC SH nair impossible. I seem to recall the frame-perfect AC SH Nair was determined to exist by taking his nair AC window and comparing it to the SH timing, but the gravity glitch reduces SH airtime at least a frame IIRC. Nair is listed as AC 32>, and his SH airtime is 32. Assuming he lands on frame 33, and the nair ACs 32 onward [what I was told it means], then the tech is either not frame perfect [a nair on frame 2 of airtime will land frame 33, which is 32 of the nair, ACing], or you have to be in frame 32 onward to autocancel, aka frame 33, and I *think* the gravity glitch would stop it. The third alternative is that the gravity glitch removes 2 frames of airtime and you must actually hit the nair only frame 2 of airtime (>_>).

Whoever is testing stuff in 20XX, if they could frame advance this, I'm curious...

For the original post, Link's dair hits frame 13, and his fair hits frame 14, so unless there's some weird collision detection that makes Link land at least 2 frames sooner using dair compared to using fair, he can do nair dair. If you tested with the second method already, then... it wouldn't have been that practical anyway?
It is frame perfect, you have to nair on frame 2 and the AC window starts on frame 32 not 33 otherwise it would not be possible.

I can get a few back to back but it is quite difficult.

I also discovered a while back that Link's FH FF airtime is 35 frames not 36 frames as all other sources state.
 
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