How to play against King Dedede?

[FrankDaTank]

Okay so, I looked through the different forums asking how to beat King Dedede and none of the characters I play were listed or had any advice in any of the other topics where people asked this question so...I guess I'll just ask it myself.

I have problems with King Dedede. Serious problems. The characters I usually use in PM are Marth and Sheik (since I play them in Melee anyway), Mario, Ike, Marth, and Roy. Although I will sometimes also drift to DK, Ganondorf, or Captain Falcon if I feel like it.

I am a decently experienced player. I know how to read, I know percents, I wavedash, L-cancel, AGT, space moves properly, jab cancel, all that jazz. So I feel as though I have a fairly decent grasp on this game seeing as I've played Melee and Project M competitively for around two years. Just a little idea of my level in this game.

Anyway, as you may have guessed, I have a lot of trouble against Dedede.

First of all, his grab range, as I have painfully come to notice, is absolute god. Plus, it also seems like even if you manage to cross him up with an aerial, which is very hard to do given his grab range, he can just neutral air out of shield and totally negate your pressure. I already know Marth, Roy, and Ike get ****ed by this because Marth and Roy will ALWAYS be shieldgrabbed by Dedede no matter how well spaced an aerial is and Ike, although he doesn't quite have this problem, he's still kind of slow and his finishers seem difficult to land on Dedede.

Second, the fact that Dedede has three midair jumps always, ALWAYS messes me up so badly because I'll go up to try and hit him with an aerial, I'll whiff, and the other player will quickly fastfall with an aerial (down air or neutral air usually) and put me back into a really bad position, such as offstage or just in hitstun which leads to me getting grabbed, hit with another aerial, or just flat out edgeguarded. Air camping with him seems to be extremely, extremely powerful and to be honest, it's quite annoying for me.

Third, the fact that his survivability is so good, combined with the fact that he has Waddle Dee AGT in addition to three midair jumps and his Up-B can make things very, VERY frustrating when he lives to 170% and then gimps you at 60%. I know Dedede is a huge target, but he lives to insane percents, and even if he expends all of his midair jumps, his hammer still gives him more than enough priority to throw out a down air or another high priority, low lag aerial to protect himself while he fights his way back down to the ground and get his jumps back so he can start air camping again.

Fourth, and finally, the fact that his forward and back airs are soooo safe on shield (or at least they seem to be) really is quite annoying because it makes it very hard to grab him at all, especially when combined with the fact that most Dedede players air camp so much.

As an added question, I played against a Dedede who down aired my shield by jumping off the ledge a lot. Is down air safe in shield in addition to his forward and back airs?

As for the characters I use, what I have concluded is this:

Link- Can win against Dedede with his projectiles and disjoints, but it is hard because of ridiculous gimps Dedede has, and Link's somewhat slow mobility overall.

Marth- Terrible matchup for Marth, can't do anything safely on Dedede's shield, gets gimped to Hell.

Roy- Same as Marth, except slightly easier to KO Dedede due to easier to land sweetspots at base of sword and also gets juggled much harder due to faster falling speed.

Sheik- Don't have much experience with this, but seems like Sheik would be pretty easy for Dedede to edgeguard and gimp. Also Dedede lives forever because Sheik mostly relies on gimps for kills and it's very difficult to gimp Dedede, although her needles may help her in this regard.

Mario- Seems like an okay matchup for Mario, has a decent recovery, fireballs, a good setup with down throw into forward air as a finisher, can juggle Dedede decently well with up airs into forward smash.

Ike- Similar to Marth and Roy, except everything can't be shieldgrabbed by Dedede, has an arguably easier time recovering and KO'ing than either of the two.

DK- No experience.

Falcon- Horrible matchup. Bad recovery, gimped to Hell, combo food for Dedede.

Ganondorf- Not quite the same as Falcon, but similar. Gimps, combo food, etc.

Anyway, I NEED help with this matchup. If anyone can give me some advice with any of the characters I listed, then it would be very, very appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[sneakytako]

If you cross up his shield, you just cc his nair. Then you can uptilt as marth and juggle him for days.

Playing against d3 is a game of precision, of making no mistakes. Getting grabbed is pretty much death alot of the time.

I play marth d3 from both sides, and it's not nearly as bad as a mu as people think. You just have to learn to take advantage of d3's spacing moves and his poor range on his fast moves. Also, cc on platforms is really good unless he starts trying to inhale from below.

 

[Thor]

Okay so, I looked through the different forums asking how to beat King Dedede and none of the characters I play were listed or had any advice in any of the other topics where people asked this question so...I guess I'll just ask it myself.

I have problems with King Dedede. Serious problems. The characters I usually use in PM are Marth and Sheik (since I play them in Melee anyway), Mario, Ike, Marth, and Roy. Although I will sometimes also drift to DK, Ganondorf, or Captain Falcon if I feel like it.

I am a decently experienced player. I know how to read, I know percents, I wavedash, L-cancel, AGT, space moves properly, jab cancel, all that jazz. So I feel as though I have a fairly decent grasp on this game seeing as I've played Melee and Project M competitively for around two years. Just a little idea of my level in this game.

Anyway, as you may have guessed, I have a lot of trouble against Dedede.

First of all, his grab range, as I have painfully come to notice, is absolute god. Plus, it also seems like even if you manage to cross him up with an aerial, which is very hard to do given his grab range, he can just neutral air out of shield and totally negate your pressure. I already know Marth, Roy, and Ike get ****ed by this because Marth and Roy will ALWAYS be shieldgrabbed by Dedede no matter how well spaced an aerial is and Ike, although he doesn't quite have this problem, he's still kind of slow and his finishers seem difficult to land on Dedede.

Second, the fact that Dedede has three midair jumps always, ALWAYS messes me up so badly because I'll go up to try and hit him with an aerial, I'll whiff, and the other player will quickly fastfall with an aerial (down air or neutral air usually) and put me back into a really bad position, such as offstage or just in hitstun which leads to me getting grabbed, hit with another aerial, or just flat out edgeguarded. Air camping with him seems to be extremely, extremely powerful and to be honest, it's quite annoying for me.

Third, the fact that his survivability is so good, combined with the fact that he has Waddle Dee AGT in addition to three midair jumps and his Up-B can make things very, VERY frustrating when he lives to 170% and then gimps you at 60%. I know Dedede is a huge target, but he lives to insane percents, and even if he expends all of his midair jumps, his hammer still gives him more than enough priority to throw out a down air or another high priority, low lag aerial to protect himself while he fights his way back down to the ground and get his jumps back so he can start air camping again.

Fourth, and finally, the fact that his forward and back airs are soooo safe on shield (or at least they seem to be) really is quite annoying because it makes it very hard to grab him at all, especially when combined with the fact that most Dedede players air camp so much.

As an added question, I played against a Dedede who down aired my shield by jumping off the ledge a lot. Is down air safe in shield in addition to his forward and back airs?

As for the characters I use, what I have concluded is this:

Link- Can win against Dedede with his projectiles and disjoints, but it is hard because of ridiculous gimps Dedede has, and Link's somewhat slow mobility overall.

Marth- Terrible matchup for Marth, can't do anything safely on Dedede's shield, gets gimped to Hell.

Roy- Same as Marth, except slightly easier to KO Dedede due to easier to land sweetspots at base of sword and also gets juggled much harder due to faster falling speed.

Sheik- Don't have much experience with this, but seems like Sheik would be pretty easy for Dedede to edgeguard and gimp. Also Dedede lives forever because Sheik mostly relies on gimps for kills and it's very difficult to gimp Dedede, although her needles may help her in this regard.

Mario- Seems like an okay matchup for Mario, has a decent recovery, fireballs, a good setup with down throw into forward air as a finisher, can juggle Dedede decently well with up airs into forward smash.

Ike- Similar to Marth and Roy, except everything can't be shieldgrabbed by Dedede, has an arguably easier time recovering and KO'ing than either of the two.

DK- No experience.

Falcon- Horrible matchup. Bad recovery, gimped to Hell, combo food for Dedede.

Ganondorf- Not quite the same as Falcon, but similar. Gimps, combo food, etc.

Anyway, I NEED help with this matchup. If anyone can give me some advice with any of the characters I listed, then it would be very, very appreciated.

Thanks!

A very very good Dedede I know used to say King Dedede only wins 4 matchups: Fire Emblem and Sheik. He now thinks Dedede wins more MUs than just that [posted an MU chart somewhere], but you're right that King Dedede gives those characters a rough time and should beat all of them [not by a lot, but by enough]. Here's some MU info from what I know.

Spoiler: Your characters

I think Ganondorf is supposed to beat King Dedede because his side+B is amazing for tech chasing Dedede everywhere [huge hurtbox] and he can somewhat reliably KO DDD [just hit him]. Aerial -> jab can stop shieldgrabs and also can't be CC grabbed so that's nice. You'll get gimped a decent amount, but tipman and strong uair/fair will help you edgeguard him effectively.

I think Falcon King Dedede is supposed to be even-ish? I'm not positive, but Falcon is fast and can knee Dedede, but Dedede can ruin Falcon's day very quickly. Dash-dance camping to look for a punish is definitely your best option, and not overextending your tech chases is a good idea [it's probably okay to hard commit to an option like stomp in place after a dthrow, but then you just reset to neutral if it misses].

DK Dedede sounds weird. As for Mario, I'm only going to guess that Mario wins because Mario can fireball, likely use tilts to get rid of waddles [or bair them away repeatedly], and has KO confirms from grabs [he may also have a dthrow CG, not sure].

As a Link main, Link King Dedede is even or favors Link somewhat. Link is heavy and will live a while if you don't get gimped, but you have to stay onstage and be patient, as they can both ruin each other. There's a lot of camping going on in this MU if neither of you wants to force the issue, and platforms will be useful for Link.

Regardless of who you play as, you need to DI dthrow down, and fthrow up if you want to live as long as possible, aka it's a 50/50. Bad DI on fthrow usually means an easy edgeguard, and bad DI on dthrow means a regrab [or an offstage dropzone fair]. I usually try to DI down and react to other throws [unless his dthrow will send me toward center stage, then I'll *usually* DI up because bthrow].

As for the survivability, know that up+B CANNOT sweetspot [I'm not sure if his jumps can either], so a Fox or Falco fsmash at the ledge always cover it. This extends to moves like Link up+B and Sheik dsmash as well [although he can do reverse up+b, go into helpless, and fade to ledge if you commit early, as well as just wall tech and up+b again].

I don't see damage values for Dedede's aerials in the frame data thread, but assuming landing lag values are accurate, fair is probably pseudo-safe, and bair is probably mostly safe [I'd guess like -4 and -2 on block or something]. Dair is likely not safe [I believe each hit is rather low damage, so it's like Fox drill], but it can be crossed over and is a multi-hit, so rising dair on shield is obnoxious to punish if you aren't fast about jumping and uairing [which I should think would work].

Unless King Dedede had a jumpsquat reduction since the frame data thread was made, or unless nair was sped up, nair should be frame 14 OoS, which is really slow [for comparison, Link grab is frame 11 OoS, Samus is grab is frame 18 OoS, and Lucario nair is frame 15 OoS (his nair is frame 11)]. You need more tight shield pressure [or to call out the nair OoS with a shield or jab or something] if it's consistently being used to give you issues [but his shield grab is just frame 7 OoS and that can be an issue if you aren't spacing tight enough vertically].

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Now, [THIS IS IMPORTANT] I don't want to link a bunch of videos of people fighting high-level King Dedede players because I don't want to overwhelm you with data or irrelevant videos. But if you want me to link you sets of DDD vs X character, let me know [tag me and/or use the reply button on this post]. I know of sets for Marth/Falcon/Link off the top of my head and I'm sure I could find sets for most of the other characters.

P.S: If you are getting desperate for a DDD counter, not just a matchup you can handle [whether that is toughing it out with Marth or improving the Mario or whatever], Lucario, Toon Link, and Ivysaur all beat King Dedede very solidly. If the King Dedede has a counterpick for those characters [which isn't a terribly unreasonable assumption] you might get in a counterpicking war, or just find out you have a new co-main if you can handle their CPs too.

 

[FrankDaTank]

A very very good Dedede I know used to say King Dedede only wins 4 matchups: Fire Emblem and Sheik. He now thinks Dedede wins more MUs than just that [posted an MU chart somewhere], but you're right that King Dedede gives those characters a rough time and should beat all of them [not by a lot, but by enough]. Here's some MU info from what I know.

Spoiler: Your characters

I think Ganondorf is supposed to beat King Dedede because his side+B is amazing for tech chasing Dedede everywhere [huge hurtbox] and he can somewhat reliably KO DDD [just hit him]. Aerial -> jab can stop shieldgrabs and also can't be CC grabbed so that's nice. You'll get gimped a decent amount, but tipman and strong uair/fair will help you edgeguard him effectively.

I think Falcon King Dedede is supposed to be even-ish? I'm not positive, but Falcon is fast and can knee Dedede, but Dedede can ruin Falcon's day very quickly. Dash-dance camping to look for a punish is definitely your best option, and not overextending your tech chases is a good idea [it's probably okay to hard commit to an option like stomp in place after a dthrow, but then you just reset to neutral if it misses].

DK Dedede sounds weird. As for Mario, I'm only going to guess that Mario wins because Mario can fireball, likely use tilts to get rid of waddles [or bair them away repeatedly], and has KO confirms from grabs [he may also have a dthrow CG, not sure].

As a Link main, Link King Dedede is even or favors Link somewhat. Link is heavy and will live a while if you don't get gimped, but you have to stay onstage and be patient, as they can both ruin each other. There's a lot of camping going on in this MU if neither of you wants to force the issue, and platforms will be useful for Link.

Regardless of who you play as, you need to DI dthrow down, and fthrow up if you want to live as long as possible, aka it's a 50/50. Bad DI on fthrow usually means an easy edgeguard, and bad DI on dthrow means a regrab [or an offstage dropzone fair]. I usually try to DI down and react to other throws [unless his dthrow will send me toward center stage, then I'll *usually* DI up because bthrow].

As for the survivability, know that up+B CANNOT sweetspot [I'm not sure if his jumps can either], so a Fox or Falco fsmash at the ledge always cover it. This extends to moves like Link up+B and Sheik dsmash as well [although he can do reverse up+b, go into helpless, and fade to ledge if you commit early, as well as just wall tech and up+b again].

I don't see damage values for Dedede's aerials in the frame data thread, but assuming landing lag values are accurate, fair is probably pseudo-safe, and bair is probably mostly safe [I'd guess like -4 and -2 on block or something]. Dair is likely not safe [I believe each hit is rather low damage, so it's like Fox drill], but it can be crossed over and is a multi-hit, so rising dair on shield is obnoxious to punish if you aren't fast about jumping and uairing [which I should think would work].

Unless King Dedede had a jumpsquat reduction since the frame data thread was made, or unless nair was sped up, nair should be frame 14 OoS, which is really slow [for comparison, Link grab is frame 11 OoS, Samus is grab is frame 18 OoS, and Lucario nair is frame 15 OoS (his nair is frame 11)]. You need more tight shield pressure [or to call out the nair OoS with a shield or jab or something] if it's consistently being used to give you issues [but his shield grab is just frame 7 OoS and that can be an issue if you aren't spacing tight enough vertically].

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Now, [THIS IS IMPORTANT] I don't want to link a bunch of videos of people fighting high-level King Dedede players because I don't want to overwhelm you with data or irrelevant videos. But if you want me to link you sets of DDD vs X character, let me know [tag me and/or use the reply button on this post]. I know of sets for Marth/Falcon/Link off the top of my head and I'm sure I could find sets for most of the other characters.

P.S: If you are getting desperate for a DDD counter, not just a matchup you can handle [whether that is toughing it out with Marth or improving the Mario or whatever], Lucario, Toon Link, and Ivysaur all beat King Dedede very solidly. If the King Dedede has a counterpick for those characters [which isn't a terribly unreasonable assumption] you might get in a counterpicking war, or just find out you have a new co-main if you can handle their CPs too.

Sorry for the long awaited response, but yes, those matches you mentioned would be nice, particularly the Link one.

Do you know of any matches of Mario versus DDD by any chance by the way?

 

[Thor]

Sorry for the long awaited response, but yes, those matches you mentioned would be nice, particularly the Link one.

Do you know of any matches of Mario versus DDD by any chance by the way?

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cSge9hLN_Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHOP0k8aRdA

Not as many videos of Link winning as I had hoped, but I could link more where Link is doing stuff right even if the Link doesn't win in the end.

Falcon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqmciPVlQrE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdHjmf_WwmA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BTcvIGFdy0&t=10m50s [only game 4 has Dedede]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxUilwO0CPY [scattered throughout the set]

Marth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlSDDAESD1U [hard matchup, I could link close sets where Marths get games if you wanted, but full sets didn't seem common]

Mario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y9Fg6QaI30 [just games 1 and 2]

I don't have much for Mario, sorry.

 

[sneakytako]

Marth vs D3 are common in AZ where heysuess plays Axe.

 

[FrankDaTank]

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cSge9hLN_Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHOP0k8aRdA

Not as many videos of Link winning as I had hoped, but I could link more where Link is doing stuff right even if the Link doesn't win in the end.

Falcon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqmciPVlQrE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdHjmf_WwmA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BTcvIGFdy0&t=10m50s [only game 4 has Dedede]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxUilwO0CPY [scattered throughout the set]

Marth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlSDDAESD1U [hard matchup, I could link close sets where Marths get games if you wanted, but full sets didn't seem common]

Mario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y9Fg6QaI30 [just games 1 and 2]

I don't have much for Mario, sorry.

Alright, watching those matches, I'm definitely seeing a thing or two that I could or should be doing as Link or Mario. Thanks for the help, Dedede really bugs me in this game with his dumb grab range and his fattiness so he lives forever.