.:How to Murder Stuff:. A Guide to the 'Dorf'

[Swoops]

herow

Swoops, I will tell a little bit about my Purposes for Dsmash.

My Focus is the Second Hit of Dsmash for Mindgames. I'm not working on the First Hit.

I'm not seeking follows-ups for Dsmash.

Can you understand me ?


Honestly... I Love Ganon's Dsmash.

I know exactly what you mean. Fake them out so they think the first hit is coming, only to have their spot dodge end or shield drop right into the second. It can work, but I think I wouldn't expect it to work more than once or twice on a truly skilled opponent who knows whats what.

Not just because it has 17 frames between each hit, but also because of its 25 frames of lag after the second hitbox and the 35 frames for the second hitbox to come out. Also, it does 14-15% damage and doesn't give you much else. I'd rather fake the person out with an aerial and go for a d-tilt which gives me much better advantage. I think there are a lot better opportunities for fake outs and mindgames and the like.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

I think the same you.

There are lot of Better Mindgames.

Swoops I can't sit back and watch Dsmash without any useful atribute.

I will post when I made my tests. I will explain the possible Mindgames and I accept corrections too.

Glad that you understood this situation.

I should post Swoops ?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I think the same you.

There are lot of Better Mindgames.

Swoops I can't sit back and watch Dsmash without any useful atribute.

I will post when I made my tests. I will explain the possible Mindgames and I accept corrections too.

Glad that you understood this situation.

I should post Swoops ?

Good luck finding nothing. Please, get over it. DSmash is useless, and will remain useless.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'd give Dsmash 2 out of 10, overall.
The reasons it's not a 1, is that it's garanteed on Oli, and that it can switch positions with the opponent for a edgeguard.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Ideas for Ganondorf's Dsmash

As we know, Ganon's Dsmash, Unfortunately, is the most Useless move. A few weeks ago, I was playing with my friends and playing some Online Basic Brawls. I decided to test more frequently the Dsmash with the purpose to seek something useful. The way I used the Dsmash was: Ganondorf in Back Position, always Focusing the Second Hit, Dodge/Roll to avoid of my opponent if he Shield the Attack. Sometimes when was possible I got a chance to charge and give a damage above 14%.

My purpose is use Dsmash with maximum strategy, so always using the Second Hit. Let's call this "Blind Boot" for now.

Based on that I decided to test this as Possible Mindgame or a Possible Approach.

The most situation that I used "Blind Boot" was: When my opponent was coming from behind predicting a Salmon Smash.

Another Possible Situations which "Blind Boot" can be Useful:
- You can use "Blind Boot" when your opponent is recovering from the ledge (All forms) and specially you can use this against those players who mains Ike and use his Side-B to recover without hang the ledge.

- When you for some reason get in Back Position and your opponent is predicting another attack.

- Predict and Hit Gerudos during a Ganon Ditto.

 

[KiraFlax]

Sup Ray kalm and Swoops. lol my first post in any ganondorf thread.

 

[Swoops]

Sup Ray kalm and Swoops. lol my first post in any ganondorf thread.

Yo Kira, glad to see you around . Stick around, learn some stuff, become one with the boards >.>

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Swoops I know that you HATE Dsmash.

I totally agree with you, Dsmash is Useless.

But at least, think about my ideas for Dsmash in my last post.

I just wanted to help with some information.

Don't be very radical.

I think each attack should have something interesting, even if it is useless.

If you disagree completely about my ideas, give me an answer.

Anyway... this Guide belongs to you.

 

[Swoops]

No, I can definitely see where your ideas are coming from, it's just that there will always be a better option. The second hit of d-smash takes 35 frames to come out. That's slower than all of Ganon's moves (except WP and u-tilt of course) by at least 13 frames.

If you want to fake the person out you could do a variety of things that are safer and take less time. You could throw out a aerial with a buffered attack, or you could do a quick dashdance with a f-smash/gerudo thrown in. Hell even a SHAD or spotdodge to fake them out. If you decide to try and hit them with the second part, they get 35 frames to decide what to do. They could just shield and punish with something hard. If you're playing ganon, you really don't have the opportunity to screw around with something so unrewarding and punishable. The second hit is especially bad to try and hit with alone. I know you want to try and make it useful, but it just has no merit as a stand alone move. It's only use is in the olimar match up and maybe after a stomp at 0%.

There is always a better punish move, better mindgame/fake out, better KO move (I wouldn't even classify d-smash as a KO move,) more rewarding move, and all around better move to be had.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Swoops, Thank you very much.

I understand you now. I agree with you about the Second Hit of Dsmash. Unfortunately, Dsmash has a BAD lag.

If I find something interesting about the other attacks, I will probably post here again with the objective of upgrade your guide.

Thanks for your attention dude.


I have one question about Ganon's Nair :
Nair can be useful in Combos or as a Follow Up ?

 

[Swoops]

I have one question about Ganon's Nair :
Nair can be useful in Combos or as a Follow Up ?

I actually like n-air quite a bit. I don't use it that much, because it is still just an average move, but it has more use than just a juggle breaker.

The second hit of it is pretty solid as an edgeguard with its weak hit. It's really nice because you can just drop off the ledge with it and the hitbox will last a good amount of time. DJ and sweet spot the ledge with up B and you've got yourself a gimped opponent. I mean, you have to decide whose recovery it probably works best on. It works as a decent OoS move too.

As for combo potential. I've tried screwing around with it a bit. It's nice, but there are a lot of factors that just end up screwing it up. You could try following up a low percent stomp though with a full jump n-air, then DJing into an u-air or something.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf would be a lot more interesting if his N-air had half the landing lag. Regardless, it's still a somewhat cool attack for coming in from above if you have the timing down. It doesn't automatically get punished by everything unlike D-air since you can space it. Sometimes however, you can do fullhop B-air -> crossup N-air for some mindgames.

Oh yes and offstage, weak hit N-air -> U-air for fun times. I also use N-air as I descend during my recovery. Usually this deters edgeguarders.

 

[Big O]

I find myself using Bair more often these days. Lol a lot of the time SHAC Bair's chained a few times really throws them off. I wouldn't use it on short people obviously since they can't get hit by AC Bair's but the horizontal reach is surprisingly good. It seems to be on par with Fair reach wise (slightly less reach) and is pretty safe on block. It is also a decent answer to SH approaches.

I treat Nair as a double sex kick because it pretty much acts like one. I wish it could kill better or link into the second hit more often.

 

[stRIP]

Ganondorf would be a lot more interesting if his N-air had half the landing lag. Regardless, it's still a somewhat cool attack for coming in from above if you have the timing down. It doesn't automatically get punished by everything unlike D-air since you can space it. Sometimes however, you can do fullhop B-air -> crossup N-air for some mindgames.

Oh yes and offstage, weak hit N-air -> U-air for fun times. I also use N-air as I descend during my recovery. Usually this deters edgeguarders.

im starting to use fulljump aerials and nair in the second jump to sideB. Or fulljump nair to nair to sideb, fulljump nair to double jump nair sideB. Nair got potential as a spacing tool, im experimenting around with it since a few weeks.

Nair O Dorf.

 

[weinner]

I decided to get the kill percents for every variation of WP (since you only have a standard punch).

So,

Reverse WP kills Mario from the center of FD w/o DI at: 18%
Aerial WP kills Mario from the center of FD w/o at: 13%

And a Reverse Aerial WP kills Mario from the center of FD w/o DI at:









5%

I just thought that was some nice information to know. Too bad we can never land one unless our opponent is an idiot.

 

[thexsunrosered]

I decided to get the kill percents for every variation of WP (since you only have a standard punch).

So,

Reverse WP kills Mario from the center of FD w/o DI at: 18%
Aerial WP kills Mario from the center of FD w/o at: 13%

And a Reverse Aerial WP kills Mario from the center of FD w/o DI at:









5%

I just thought that was some nice information to know. Too bad we can never land one unless our opponent is an idiot.

even though thats intense, you didn't do regular WP =O

but that is ****ing crazy xD

 

[Swoops]

I find myself using Bair more often these days. Lol a lot of the time SHAC Bair's chained a few times really throws them off. I wouldn't use it on short people obviously since they can't get hit by AC Bair's but the horizontal reach is surprisingly good. It seems to be on par with Fair reach wise (slightly less reach) and is pretty safe on block. It is also a decent answer to SH approaches.

I treat Nair as a double sex kick because it pretty much acts like one. I wish it could kill better or link into the second hit more often.

Yea, B-air is probably my main SH snuffer. It has really decent priority and can shut down quite a few aerial approaches.

Something else...I'm trying to bring dashdancing back . Obviously there are huge drawbacks to using it, you're pretty limited in certain ways. No shield and no tilts, no wizkick...occasional trip ><. But you have pretty much every other option. Constant mix up of aerials, fake out DAs and gerudos, all of your smashes, and you can go ahead and roll out if you're in a bind. If anything, it's really flashy and fun :D.

EDIT:

im starting to use fulljump aerials and nair in the second jump to sideB. Or fulljump nair to nair to sideb, fulljump nair to double jump nair sideB. Nair got potential as a spacing tool, im experimenting around with it since a few weeks.

Nair O Dorf.

:O Don't you dare try to take away my nair-o-dorf title

 

[Z1GMA]

"Fullhop Nair > Buffered DJ Nair-spacing" isn't really that good.
The hitboxes goes way too high above ground.
But for baiting... yeah, it use to work a couple times before the opponent figures out what you're doin'.

 

[stRIP]

"Fullhop Nair > Buffered DJ Nair-spacing" isn't really that good.
The hitboxes goes way too high above ground.
But for baiting... yeah, it use to work a couple times before the opponent figures out what you're doin'.

actually im not using nair all the time. Fulljump uair to double jump Nair to aerial sideB. Im just experimenting around with it becuz it looks awesome.

GANONDORF AIRCAMPING LLOOOLOLLOLOLOOL

 

[Z1GMA]

Master his ISJR with 100% success rate, then use it to "Air Camp", and I'll be sure to call you Sensei, stRIP.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

I didn't expect that my question about Ganon's Nair could start a good discussion. lol

Thanks for your explanation Swoops. I asked you about Nair because you said once that you found something interesting about Nair.

Today, I'm playing Brawl+(Nightly Builds 5.0) and using Nair a lot, cause It's much more viable now. Not only for Juggle Breaker, but for Combos.

 

[Swoops]

I might -keyword is might here- have found a reliable way to set up into our bounce combo. You remember bounce combo right, that cool thing that we realized we just lacked even a somewhat decent setup into?

I have a few concerns with the thing as a whole, mostly because I don't have another person to test it with, and because if it is guaranteed, it seems to be frame perfect. That's if it is guaranteed...pretty sure it isn't.

Anywho, you know how some characters are using footstool to knock people into the ground for combos? Well I've been messing around with that for Ganon. With the right timing, if you footstool someone into the ground, you can fast fall a tipman u-air into the opponent, giving you the bounce from the bounce combo and giving you a free f-smash, gerudo, or what have you. This part is guaranteed. If you do it right, they shouldn't be able to roll before the u-air, and the u-air forces them to get up.

Now, obviously the question is, how the hell would I set up into a footstool right above the ground? Why, stomp of course! I was thinking how jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, and DA are usually a combo right after a stomp at 0-10%. I think if you get it perfectly, you can get the footstool right after a stomp. I mean, jump is 7 frames, so why not? That's the part that's hardly guaranteed. I know they can airdodge too...but we're ignoring airdodge for now >.>.

Anyways, testing still needs to be done.

Also, against D3 I've been able to stomp> FJ stomp> DJ footstool> bounce combo .

 

[Z1GMA]

I too have been messing around with his Footstooling Game.
But I find it pretty tricky to connect with the actuall 'Footstool'.

And god should know I've been so, so close to creating a garanteed WP out of it.
There's just a few evil frames which won't let you do it.

Swoops, have you tried sourspot Nair after the Footstool?
I works pretty well.

Also, against D3 I've been able to stomp> FJ stomp> DJ footstool> bounce combo .

Hey... That sounds very effective.
I never tried Full Jumping the Stomp :O
Rises the success rate pretty much, huh?

I wonder if "Ledge jump -> instant DJ -> Stomp" could set this up.
Most likely not, but you never know.

 

[Swoops]

I too have been messing around with his Footstooling Game.
But I find it pretty tricky to connect with the actual 'Footstool'.

And god should know I've been so, so close to creating a guaranteed WP out of it.
There's just a few evil frames which won't let you do it.

Swoops, have you tried sourspot Nair after the Footstool?
It works pretty well.

Hey... That sounds very effective.
I never tried Full Jumping the Stomp :O
Rises the success rate pretty much, huh?

I wonder if "Ledge jump -> instant DJ -> Stomp" could set this up.
Most likely not, but you never know.

If you can actually get the footstool out of a stomp before they can attack, it's a pretty **** small window. It's going to be harder to buffer than any normal attack (jab, f-tilt, etc.) I think I had the most trouble with it at first because I was mashing jump like a madman, but you have to be a lot more precise with hitting jump.

I actually have tried sourspot n-air, but it just doesn't work as smoothly as u-air for me. There are a lot of characters that lie really flat on the ground where it's tough to hit them with the sourspot. Either I just end up hitting them with too strong a hitbox or I end up missing them entirely >.<.

Against the bigger characters in the game, stomp> FJ stomp works pretty well actually. They only have two options to avoid it usually, tech or regain control before the ground and shield. Anything else and it looks like they get hit, which gives us a free DJ any aerial (any, even f-air, another stomp, or aerudo,) or my personal favorite, FF into u-smash.

Ill probably mess around with IDJ stomp from the ledge a little later today. My only grievance with the stomp set up is that it most likely only works at like 0-10%.

 

[Z1GMA]

I just wanna say something about Z1gman Comboing...
In the beginning, I found it very situational, and highly overrated.
To be honest... I didn't even use it myself.

But, for the last few weeks (before my TV collapsed), I've been forcing myself to put into my Game, and it actually pays off surprisingly well.

I always tried to force the situation to happen, before. But that never worked. It was stupid to even try.
But now, it sort of comes to me naturally when the opportunity shows itself.

My comming CV will contain a lot of sexyness based on it : )

stRIP had a very sexy example of it in Kalm's Ganon Boards CV.

If you can actually get the footstool out of a stomp before they can attack, it's a pretty **** small window. It's going to be harder to buffer than any normal attack (jab, f-tilt, etc.) I think I had the most trouble with it at first because I was mashing jump like a madman, but you have to be a lot more precise with hitting jump.

I actually have tried sourspot n-air, but it just doesn't work as smoothly as u-air for me. There are a lot of characters that lie really flat on the ground where it's tough to hit them with the sourspot. Either I just end up hitting them with too strong a hitbox or I end up missing them entirely >.<.

Against the bigger characters in the game, stomp> FJ stomp works pretty well actually. They only have two options to avoid it usually, tech or regain control before the ground and shield. Anything else and it looks like they get hit, which gives us a free DJ any aerial (any, even f-air, another stomp, or aerudo,) or my personal favorite, FF into u-smash.

Ill probably mess around with IDJ stomp from the ledge a little later today. My only grievance with the stomp set up is that it most likely only works at like 0-10%.

I Wonder if a ASAP WP would be able to hit them right after the Footstool, if the Footstool takes place very high up in the air...
It would be sweeeeet.

 

[Swoops]

I Wonder if a ASAP WP would be able to hit them right after the Footstool, if the Footstool takes place very high up in the air...
It would be sweeeeet.

If Ganon could somehow get a combo into a warlock punch...I'd have his dark, evil babies.

But alas, they could easily DI away after the footstool. Besides, you can jump out of the footstool at a certain point.

Now, I'm doing more b-airing . It has like the same shield pushback as f-air and ridiculous priority. I'm just doing tons of experimenting lately.

 

[finnishmatthew]

I dunno, d-smash seems waaaay to useless to use when a good follow up will almost guarantee a hit, and position them for another flame choke at low %.

 

[Swoops]

I dunno, d-smash seems waaaay to useless to use when a good follow up will almost guarantee a hit, and position them for another flame choke at low %.

You mean as a follow up against Olimar? It does good extra damage, and can consistently put him off the stage depending on your positioning. I usually gerudo> d-tilt> gerudo> d-smash. Pretty solid and does like 49% I think.

 

[Z1GMA]

Yuck... My Ganon has a hard time against most Olimars ;\

Speaking of Gerudo -> Dsmash...
Sometimes, you can even hit ROB with a garanteed Dsmash, after Gerudo, if you drop him on lower ground (Thanks to his already 12 frames disadvantage).
It might aslo work on Ivy, if he's not too slim while on the ground, that is.

 

[finnishmatthew]

Yuck... My Ganon has a hard time against most Olimars ;\

Speaking of Gerudo -> Dsmash...
Sometimes, you can even hit ROB with a garanteed Dsmash, after Gerudo, if you drop him on lower ground (Thanks to his already 12 frames disadvantage).
It might aslo work on Ivy, if his not too slim while on the ground, that is.

Really? Awesome! My brother mains as R.O.B., gonna have to go try that.

 

[finnishmatthew]

You mean as a follow up against Olimar? It does good extra damage, and can consistently put him off the stage depending on your positioning. I usually gerudo> d-tilt> gerudo> d-smash. Pretty solid and does like 49% I think.

What I mean is that there are so many more useful moves than d-smash, that it's not something I would ostensibly seek to use. (except against Olimar). All-in-all, I feel that d-smash is a very useless move against everyone other than Olimar. It's much to laggy and DI-affected to be of any use. We should be seeking how to make his other moves extremely useful, and not seek a way to make a useless move somewhat useful.

 

[Swoops]

What I mean is that there are so many more useful moves than d-smash, that it's not something I would ostensibly seek to use. (except against Olimar). All-in-all, I feel that d-smash is a very useless move against everyone other than Olimar. It's much to laggy and DI-affected to be of any use. We should be seeking how to make his other moves extremely useful, and not seek a way to make a useless move somewhat useful.

Oh...yea I completely agree, d-smash sucks >.>

 

[finnishmatthew]

If Ganon could somehow get a combo into a warlock punch...I'd have his dark, evil babies.

But alas, they could easily DI away after the footstool. Besides, you can jump out of the footstool at a certain point.

Now, I'm doing more b-airing . It has like the same shield pushback as f-air and ridiculous priority. I'm just doing tons of experimenting lately.

Would it mindfreak you to believe that I once sacred combo'd with Ganon? I have a replay of it and might post it on youtube if I feel like it. Basically I F-aired, FOG'd and fast-falled + warlock punch as he tried to recover. Of course I WAS fighting a CPU 9 lvl who doesn't DI.

 

[Z1GMA]

Would it mindfreak you to believe that I once sacred combo'd with Ganon? I have a replay of it and might post it on youtube if I feel like it. Basically I F-aired, FOG'd and fast-falled + warlock punch as he tried to recover. Of course I WAS fighting a CPU 9 lvl who doesn't DI.

If you FF the WP, you reach the ground long before the punch comes out, which takes away most of the beauty that FoG contains.

 

[finnishmatthew]

I FOG'd, tilted the control stick, and and fast falled until I was (if i kept falling without moving) falling left off FD. Then, in the air, I hit B, and, still in the air, I fired warlock punch, hit the enemy, and just had enough space to recover. (with my up B, I FOG'd and thusly had no middle jump.)

 

[Z1GMA]

Ahh.. So it was OFF stage.

 

[finnishmatthew]

Exactly, basically an overcomplicated edge-guard.

 

[Z1GMA]

Hey, where's the "Swoops Spacing"-section?
I thought I'd find it somewhere in your this guide, but I didn't ;\
(All that stuff you wrote about Fair Spacing before you had your Brawl Break)

I felt a desire to read it again :sad:

 

[thexsunrosered]

Hey, where's the "Swoops Spacing"-section?
I thought I'd find it somewhere in your this guide, but I didn't ;\
(All that stuff you wrote about Fair Spacing before you had your Brawl Break)

I felt a desire to read it again :sad:

Sliqs guide is still really good imo, even now.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Hi!

10 ICs