How to kill people when you hit them (WIP!)

[Rachman]

A massive problem I see with Falcons is that they simply don't know what to do when they get a hit/grab on an opponent. This is true even with really top level Falcons far better than myself, but when it comes to punish game it is largely a flowchart off of your combo starters regardless of your skill level.

BECAUSE UP THROW RECOVERY FRAMES ARE INDEPENDENT OF CHARACTER WEIGHT LEARNING TO ACT OUT OF UTHROW PERFECTLY IS INVALUABLE FOR YOUR COMBO GAME AS IT IS A UNIVERSALLY APPLICABLE SKILL

Please note that this is a massive WIP and therefore I would like to retest my numbers. I found these a long time ago when I was new to the game and also would like to accompany the numbers with visual aids (format them in an easy to understand and potentially accompany them with images/Gfycats). Also, there will be parts of this thread which are not solely about %s/numbers so hopefully you guys enjoy that as well

Let's start with grab follow ups (Note: I always pummel buffer dthrow for a few extra % when their DI doesn't really matter too much on a dthrow. This is done by pummeling them once and then holding down the c stick during the pummel animation until you see Falcon begin to down throw. This cannot be mashed out of afaik):

Marth:
old throw flowchart (for my lazy people)

Spoiler

0-31% D-throw. Off of dthrow at 0% you can regrab any DI away (including down and away as proven in my thread here for those curious http://smashboards.com/threads/project-falcon.412971/) and previously I have reacted to DI in with sh nair. However, this may be hard for some. An easier way may be to simply nair off of dthrow and if it fails to connect you still have a guaranteed, fairly easy tech chase set up. Finally, I have seen others always regrab and simply pivot grab for DI in. I have not tested how guaranteed that is and would greatly appreciate @gravy 's input on that.

31-65~% Uthrow uair. Nothing much else to say. Follow di in more aerials or a regrab into another uthrow uair. Pretty easy stuff

65-90~% Uthrow knee. Pretty free if you just believe in it honestly. Sometimes I'll go for an uair knee if I know knee won't kill but honestly just take the knee. Your edge guards against Marth are relatively free as far as Falcon edge guards go.

~95%+ D throw knee. I go for dthrow knee here because DI away seems to make me settle for uair when I uthrow. Haven't tested this much since I'm not usually worried about any Marth I play living this long usually but it is something I should work on

Optimal marth flowchart

Spoiler

Lower port 0-7%:

Dthrow regrab on DI down and away,

Regrab on no DI and instant DJ nair on DI in

7-20%: Dthrow uair on DI down and away (no combo from it though, if they DI/SDI correctly),
regrab no DI and instant DJ nair DI in. Use nair techchase if you want to make it difficult for the Marth, since you get no true combo if not.

-Or go for uthrow uair to start a juggle, might be worth (12%+: dthrow knee works on DI in, reactible at later %s)

21-26%: Dthrow uair on DI down and away, combo to grab on DI away on the uair and nairs/uairs if they DI in. Regrab or dash SH uair no DI on the dthrow and either SH knee or instant DJ nair DI in on the dthrow. -

if they SDI and DI up and in on the uair, you can't combo to grab, so you do another uair (which they can't avoid) and combo to uair, grab or a techchase.

27%+: Dthrow uair on DI down and away, it'll force them into tumble and so if they DI down and away on the uair, you go to where they land and techchase them. Otherwise, react to their DI and combo accordingly with uairs and nairs.

-On no DI from dthrow you can dash SH uair and combo. On DI in you SH knee or instant DJ nair.

-From 23% you can dthrow knee Marth on no DI (and DI in ofc) Uthrow knee does not combo on DI away. Dthrow knee does not combo at any relevant %s

Higher port (4)

0-19%: Dthrow regrab on DI down and away, Regrab on no DI and instant DJ nair on DI in (2%+: dthrow knee works on DI in, reactible at later %s)

20%: Dthrow uair on DI down and away, no combo. regrab no DI, instant DJ nair DI in. Nair techchase if they can't get around it.

21-26%: Dthrow uair on DI down and away, combo to grab on DI away on the uair and nairs/uairs if they DI in. Regrab or dash SH uair no DI on the dthrow and either SH knee or instant DJ nair DI in on the dthrow. -

if they SDI and DI up and in on the uair, you can't combo to grab, so you do another uair (which they can't avoid) and combo to uair, grab or a techchase.

27%+: Dthrow uair on DI down and away, it'll force them into tumble and so if they DI down and away on the uair, you go to where they land and techchase them. Otherwise, react to their DI and combo accordingly with uairs and nairs.

-On no DI from dthrow you can dash SH uair and combo. On DI in you SH knee or instant DJ nair.

-From 12% you can dthrow knee Marth on no DI (and DI in ofc)
78-86%: uthrow knee

Sheik:

Spoiler

0-37% Dthrow regrab/tech chase. DI in you regrab DI away you tech chase. One trick I use is buffer the dthrow no pummel the first dthrow to catch them DIing in for a free regrab on players not super aware of what to do v Falcon. This'll get me about halfway through the 0-37% range which is the part that Sheik is so hard to hit hard due to limited grab follow ups and CC. Also, she's much harder to tech chase than say Marth.

19+%

side b can cover 3/4 options and begins to get break asdi down at 19% and on. It's a very strong option even before then for people not ready to both tech and asdi down tech in place vs the side b

*24-37 Uthrow nair on no-> slight DI. Why do this when it's not guaranteed afaik? Because you can make Sheik explode if you landed something like grab at 24 uthrow nair uair regrab uthrow uair etc. I don't know my opinion on this but it's something worth knowing if you're a crazy man who doesn't wanna mess around with trying to cg/tech chase Sheik.

37-65% Uthrow uair. This is actually really hard. It is only a true combo on all DIs if you perform it frame perfectly (maybe a 2 frame window?) so acting out of uthrow frame perfectly is a massively important skill in this mu. In general, even Gravy isn't perfect but being pretty close is going to cut it in practice. Still, learn to be perfect so when you get nervous you're still good enough (I'm being a hypocrite as I haven't practiced this yet)

65-85% Uthrow knee is not a true combo on any DI I tested. HOWEVER, it beats or trades with any option I found Sheik to be able to do (catches DJ, beats/trades with frame perfect nair in every test I did on neutral di-> full in). Away DI is your bane and generally going to result in you having to accept uair or try to bait out a reaction and punish it.

85%+ Uthrow knee on no-> in DI is a true combo and away DI results in you effectively accepting uair as far as I can tell.

Peach:
The spoiler below is already in my other thread but is still useful for this thread.

Spoiler

How to dumpster Peach off a dthrow at 0% (courtesy of the frame god Magus):

↑
If Peach DIs the d-throw in at 0% they can just hold up against a SH n-air to avoid the 2nd hit without even needing to SDI it. It's the type of situation that's great for the FJ or instant DJ to FF n-air I was talking about before though. Even if they SDI the 1st kick it'll still get the 2nd hit if you do it right.

Off a grab at like 0-10ish, if they DI the FJ-FF/IDJ-FF n-air low you can FJ double u-air, and if they DI the n-air high you can FJ double u-air or if they were at almost 0 when you grabbed you could also SHFFL u-air to FJ double u-air. When she's at around 20+% she can't n-air between the u-airs in a FJ double u-air, and d-throw->FJ/IDJ FF n-air gets her to that percent and in the right position for it when they DI the throw high at very low damage.

___ DI N-Air High -> FJ Dbl U-Air _____ DI N-Air High -> SHFFL U-Air -> FJ Dbl U-Air

_

____ DI N-Air Low -> FJ Dbl U-Air

____ U-Air -> Not Enough Hitstun

Grab on Peach below 15%
You can try to regrab if they DI the throw low until like 30/40ish, though it's not entirely guaranteed and it's possible to DJ/wiggle to airdodge away to escape if they DI it low enough.

If they DI to be just above regrab height you can space a SH n-air since it has more vertical range at his feet, but if they SDI it up (holding up doesn't work) they'll still be able to avoid the 2nd hit. If they do this I don't think you can really do any good followups on the throw at very low damage that lead into more things besides maybe weird stuff like a pivot b-air, or IDJ d-air over her into a techchase (you go over n-air range). If you try to FJ/IDJ FF n-air the 1st kick will go over them and miss so you can't use that.

An u-air off a d-throw at 0% at best has you getting out of lcancel lag at the same time she gets out of stun (gif at the bottom), so you'd need to space it and then try to work around what she does afterwards to get something else in. If she DI's the u-air low off a grab at around like 10 or so you should be to get a JC grab off, though if she DI's the u-air high you can't hit her.

Grab on Peach after 15%
U-air actually has some stun at this point so out of the throw you can start to u-air->regrab/FJ dbl u-air, or straight FJ dbl u-air depending on DI. Don't bother with n-air since if they DI it high at this damage you won't get as much off it as you would an u-air.
It is worth noting that uair should be substituted for nair whenever there are enough frames to still continue the combo as nair can and is SDI ed by many better players. Still, nair is likely worth going for in this particular situation as the potential damage that can be inflicted is devastating to say the least.

Full Optimal Flowchart:

Spoiler

0-14%: DTHROW, dash immediately.
-DI in: Instant DJ nair FF and combo into uair and go for a combo from there.
-No DI: Regrab
-DI away: Regrab
15-20%: DTHROW, dash immediately.
-DI in: Instant DJ nair and combo from it.
-No DI: SH uair in your dash, if they DI the uair away then regrab them.
If they DI the uair in or no DI then throw out a hitbox and punish their airdodge:

OR: Instant DJ nair the no DI and combo from it, kinda hard.
-DI away: Regrab
OR: Instant DJ nair the no DI and combo from it, kinda hard.
21-28%: DTHROW, dash immediately.
- DI in: instant DJ nair and combo from it.
- No DI: SH uair in your dash. If they DI the uair away, regrab. If they no DI then combo to uair and if they DI in, uair to force an airdodge and punish it.
- DI away: Regrab
28-53%: DTHROW, dash immediately
-DI in and No DI: SH uair, combo into more uairs.
-DI away: SH instant uair, if they DI away then combo to regrab (from approx 42% you can combo to another uair:

54-90%: DTHROW, dash immediately
-DI in and no DI: SH uair, combo into more uairs. Knee if in the position to kill
-DI away: SH instant uair, if they DI away then combo to another uair, regrab won't work any more. 90-110%: DTHROW
-Knee DI in and no DI.
-If they DI away, you can go for a dthrow knee and still be able to react and punish the airdodge:

OR: Just uair the DI away if you think they'll definitely hit the airdodge, easier to do.
110-173%: DTHROW
-If they DI in or no DI, knee if possible. If they go too high, FH uair.
-DI away: dash SH instant uair. 173-193%: DTHROW
-If they DI in or no DI, FH uair them.
-If they DI away, do a dash FH uair.

Fun Peach uthrow thing (if they di the throw away):

Spoiler

Even on di the uair away, you can get fh uair, falling uair, knee. On di in you can get fh uair, falling uair, uair

Falco:

http://smashboards.com/threads/captain-falcon’s-uthrow-followups-on-falco.364342/

The main difference between Falco and Fox is that you pretty much have to dthrow tech chase Falco after the first few % on non-FD stages since he lands on the platforms very early.
Therefore:

Spoiler

0-40% Dthrow tech chase

40-88% dthrow tech chase still. If you uthrow however, there is a lot of stuff that can happen if they don't DI away (which they should pretty much always but surprisingly not all do)

53~% uthrow ftilt becomes a disgustingly good tech trap. If they miss the tech then you can stomp -> kill pretty easily.

40-120~ can uthrow regrab not away DI. Looks like a chain grab to the unknowing.

84+ go for uthrow into fsmash/fair (fair is harder to do against full behind DI so I'd recommend going for fsmash against fully backwards DI and fair against slight/no DI). Again, I don't believe this works against away DI.

65~% (really fuzzy, usually don't look at %s for this) uthrow dtilt against horrid DI into regrab into some combo straight out of 2007. Really don't recommend it but it'll work occasionally. Using dtilt a tech trap is also decent at lower %s I just like ftilt for whatever reason.

Combo extenders:

Single hit nair -> buffered shield drop/platform drop uair/grab. In a situation like this *put pic here* where you find both you and your opponent just slightly over the platform a common way to continue the combo could be a single hit nair into a fast follow up such as uair/grab. Since they are airborne as well in this situation they will find themselves unable to asdi down to negate the low KB first hit nair's hitstun.

This also has additional utility on the dreaded FoD. A common platform height is perfect for a first hit nair into buffered shield drop uair!



Instant DJ vs FH to cover BF platforms

*comparison pics here*

An instant dj will put you at effectively the perfect height to aerial over a platform and immediately land. This allows you to cover multiple/all* options with an instant dj nair, dj knee or a multitude of other options. Also, using it in combos allows you cover heights below that of a typical FH but you are not at enough of a frame advantage to FH ff!




If I'm off about anything please just let me know. This is old data and I'm not positive it's exactly correct (but it shouldn't be too far off). The new optimal flowcharts are effectively guaranteed to be accurate however

 

[Rachman]

Reserving this post. Hopefully nobody minds that I'm making this thread. Much of the data is going to be included in both of my thread (both this one and my main "Project Falcon" thread). I will be writing about other things relevant to the punish game here that I'm not positive will be in the other thread so hopefully nobody is bothered by my seemingly superfluous thread posting

 

[coilerr]

Very good thread as usual thanks a lot

 

[SwiftOfDaSouth]

Sweet Jesus



kreygasm

 

[Schill]

Sticky please

 

[タオー]

I love all of this. Specifically with Falco, I feel like you want to up throw from 0-38% (differs when platforms are introduced), and then you can mix up with down throw/continue with up throw based upon how they react with their DI. The reason you up throw at low percents is because it gives you more time to be ready to react to their tech option, as well as threaten with empty hops into a tomahawk at higher percents.
Furthermore, IIRC if you are spaced about the distance of half the stage of FD (Falco center stage, Falcon above ledge) Powershielding a Laser can convert into a run in nair, which sets up for knockdown or combo strings. You have to make sure the laser hits, and can either use the hit to follow up with nair, late uair or a *running JC grab (they may need to be a little closer for this, I will test this later). Even if the laser will miss, you can use the PS Laser essentially in the same way Falco uses his Laser, to cover space and begin applying pressure and locking down Falco from multiple fronts of attack. You do not need to be at this spacing, but I believe this is about the max distance you can pull this off.
IMHO this tactic makes the match up more than winnable. It makes the Falco think twice about utilizing their BnB approaches that gave them guaranteed pressure and combo setups, and when a Falco has to think twice, they will find it much harder to maintain pressure on Falcon, allowing you to play the game and end the years of turmoil of being unable to move (remember folks, you can access shield immediately out of your dash [Shield Stops], so you can PS out of Dash Dance!). Usually when a Falco is not used to having his Laser PS'd, they will DJ out of the hit (usually cause the laser hits their incoming aerial), and that leads to a very dead bird. Instant up air OoS, is a great option for this, but usually if you get Falco flustered you can take this opportunity to deal some serious pride damage, and ride the momentum through the set.

 

[M-Tude]

Here are my thoughts on a death tech chases on Falco, and my reasoning behind why to choose or not choose an option depending on % and stage positioning. I apologize if it's a little much. Also, these apply to Fox/Falcon pretty well too, except the exact % of Uthrow followups.

0-40%

Spoiler

Dthrow tech chase re-grab. When you reach 40% you can start going for U-throw chain-grabs when not under platforms. I personally only re-grab between these percents because I don't think that my aerials give me enough benefit just yet. Stomp can be ASDI'd down so that they go straight into a tech, and knee and Uair won't have followups on good DI.

now technically you could just Dthrow re-grab until 86% when you can Uthrow Fsmash on bad DI (tech-chase DI away) or ultimately until you could Uthrow Knee any DI. That would take a long time though, and may not be very efficient in the long run.

Tech chasing with aerials: when to use the mechanical tech chase or go for reads.

Spoiler

First of all, tech chasing with aerials, I think, is a combination of % and stage positing.

I like to avoid tech chasing with aerials until about 50% because until that % I don't feel that you get enough umph from the knee, and Uair doesn't combo into anything at lower %. It's just hard to followup from those.

I only go for the mechanical tech chase (covering tech in place with Uair/Knee and grabbing tech roll in) when I'm near enough to the ledge that Falco's tech roll away gets cut off by the ledge enough that I can grab that too, which I normally would't be able to do, as per @gravy's explanation of the mechanical tech chase. mechanically tech chasing with this positioning assures a followup on all tech options, and a devastating one on tech in place/no tech, because at 50% or higher near the ledge, Falco will get hit a decent distance off stage from a knee. if they tech roll to the ledge, grab them and drop zone them on DI in, and edge-guard if they DI any other way. If they tech roll center stage, just continue re-grabbing them until you come to another ledge or until you have enough % to go for Uthrow Fsmash.

Using aerials with Uthrow:
I use Uthrow when I start going for Uthrow Fsmash, but it's also not bad starting around 70% when execution of the mechanical tech chase from Dthrow can be difficult on DI away. If Falco DI's away here, you have two options. 1 you can go for the mechanical tech chase if you are by a ledge. 2 you can over no tech with a dash SH uair and re-grab all the tech options. This can be nice because reaching Falco's landing spot with DWD on DI away is difficult since it's pretty darn far. This option is nice because Uair will pop them up for knee if they miss the tech, and all the other options are accounted for. It's not as good as the mechanical tech chase if that one is available though.

Hard reads:
I would also arise waiting for hard reads until about 50%, for the reasons on ease of followups that I stated before. At this percent, a stomp to knee, or a knee with bad DI will be pretty devastating. If you feel you have a read on where they will tech, go for it. Hard reads are also the best way of punishing the tech rolls because most other setups result in a grab on tech rolls. Unless you believe in Gravy's optimal tech chase, which I cannot do consistently, then hard reads punish rolls the hardest.

Kill setups at the ledge:
50-80% If you D-throw Falco close to the ledge and he DIs in, or No DI doesn't send him off stage, its possible to cover no tech, tech in place, and tech roll to the ledge with Bair's large horizontal hitbox. Hitting this will almost always combo into an off stage knee. If they DI up and in, dash full hop knee. If they DI down and away, dash SH knee will probably hit, but if not, then I think weak knee to Uair will.
This is a mechanical tech chase also, so catching tech roll in with grab is still possible.

I'll edit this later maybe to say what I think about dealing with platforms.
Also, it's somewhat up to you whether or not you want to add funky things in like the Ftilt tech trap. I think it's cool, and it certainly has its place. Raptor boost too is a great combo starter that's a half read/half option coverage move if you're just feeling it.

 

[Rachman]

I decided to add in things that may not always be the best option (dtilt, ftilt and some other stuff) just to give people who may not know any better some more ideas to work with. I probably should include raptor boosting to cover multiple options, specifically the run past to ledge raptor boost back onto stage.

 

[タオー]

First of all, tech chasing with aerials, I think, is a combination of % and stage positing.

I like to avoid tech chasing with aerials until about 50% because until that % I don't feel that you get enough umph from the knee, and Uair doesn't combo into anything at lower %. It's just hard to followup from those.

I think the first statement is correct, but uair can lead to a grab/ftilt at low percent and knee can lead to regrab/nair/uair at low percent. I think it's important to utilize these tactics if you want to push your Falcon to his utmost.

By showing that at any percent you can pressure with aerials and not just with grab, it makes getting a grab easier. One thing that shouldn't be forgotten is that while a lot of modern Falcon theory discusses optimization of options, Falcon is still extremely scary, and you can still use that to turn the tides on your opponent. One of Falcon's greatest strengths is his ability to make serious comebacks due to his very tanky defensive options and devastating punishes. Learn these options so you can constantly threaten their stock throughout the match, and you'll watch their will bend and break under your own.

I feel it is extremely damaging to Falcon if you are following flow chart's to a T. Know them, but learn how to work outside of them to trick your opponent. If you're playing anyone decent, they will quickly understand your tactics, and you will get read and die.

 

[SoapSuds]

I made a little spread sheet a while back where I just tested followups on Sheik and Marth every 10%. It shows a basic idea of what options get unlocked when. Keep in mind though that when I say in and out on here it's just 100% left or right, not down and away or up and in, so it's not great. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N_ocZHtUSJ5lQrEfA2tWVTguVtA-PLdoMGZaJnJ5SBk/edit?usp=sharing

 

[coilerr]

I love all of this. Specifically with Falco, I feel like you want to up throw from 0-38% (differs when platforms are introduced), and then you can mix up with down throw/continue with up throw based upon how they react with their DI. The reason you up throw at low percents is because it gives you more time to be ready to react to their tech option, as well as threaten with empty hops into a tomahawk at higher percents.


its more advantageous to d throw until 50% actually

quoting schmooblidon:

Did some testing for a friend about which throw to use at different percents for the most of amount of time to react/read a tech-

(damage% is after throw damage except 0%) - (I haven't considered staling so bare that in mind)

When do they need to tech -
Falco - [Dthrow (0% - 200%+), Fthrow (38% - 200%+), Upthrow (0%- ~90%), Bthrow (49%-150%+) ]

(technically with upthrow falco can jump out at 70% but it's frame perfect, 90% is more realistic)

How many frames from falcons first actionable frame and falco's first tech frame-

Lowest percents
Upthrow 0% - 1 frames
Dthrow 0% - 7 frames
Fthrow 38% - minus 2
Bthrow 49% - minus 6

50%
Upthrow 50% - 10 frames
Dthrow 50% - 10 frames

90%
Upthrow 90% - 20 frames
Dthrow 90% - 13 frames

 

[タオー]

Well I'll be, if that data is true, then it looks like my Falco game is about to get a hell of a lot more frustrating. Dthrow leads to so much more swag too. I'm getting giddy just thinking about mutilating this bird...

 

[anandb]

Do you have more info/links on the buffered shield drop after an aerial? I've never really considered fall through aerial follow ups.

 

[j3ly]

bump for epic thread

 

[T^2]

personally I've always felt pretty comfortable with falcons combo game. It seems like (in my opinion) he can grab someone to the point of getting enough percent to get arial strings that combo into knee. I might be wrong, but just from what time i've spent on falcon his combo game is not the thing people should be worried about lol. Every single one of his arials combos into each other, with stomp and knee being ridiculously strong. as long as you have the skill to SHFFL and a decent game sense, you should be fine in his combo game.

 

[j3ly]

true but there is surely a 'correct' grab to use at every percent which is difficult to just know without at least a little learned knowledge

 

[Rachman]

updating this thread with some more things labbed out by Setchi, specifically marth and peach flowcharts and some other things