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How to hatch a healthy Yoshi: A Yoshi guide

Discussion in 'Yoshi' started by rmusgrave, Jul 14, 2005.

  1. rmusgrave

    rmusgrave
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    BRoomer

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,107
    Location:
    Perth, Western Australia

    How to hatch a healthy Yoshi: A Yoshi guide by BringerOfDeath


    Contacting me:
    If you want to contact me for any reason involving the improvement of this guide, any issues you have with it, and/or permission to post this on sites other than SWF, please email or IM me at bringerofdeath128@hotmail.com, or contact me by AIM at bringer128. I am declaring this my intellectual property (I love that phrase), so you must contact me if you wish to use this elsewhere.

    Intro:

    I finally got sick of the fact that there is no Yoshi guide/FAQ on Smash World Forums, with different people asking the same question over and over. So, I made this. Who am I you ask? I am an Australian Smasher, my SWF name is rmusgrave, but I prefer the screen name BringerOfDeath. I have owned this game since the year it came out in Australia, but have only really been playing seriously since April of ’04. I have to admit, I originally wasn’t a Yoshi player, but now that I am, I can’t imagine playing anyone else. Now, into the guide.



    Contents:

    1. Why play Yoshi?
    2. Pros and Cons
    3. Yoshi’s moves
    4. Yoshi statistics
    5. Advanced Strategies
    6. Character Matchups
    7. Finish


    1. Why play Yoshi?

    At first glance, Yoshi may not seem to be the best character. What seems to be his biggest weakness, and the reason most people decide not to play him, is that he has no triple jump. If knocked off the edge without his double jump, he is (in many circumstances) doomed. However, once you actually play Yoshi, you will realise that this isn’t that bad of a disadvantage.

    Yoshi is not for you if:
    1. You prefer either extreme speed or extreme power
    2. You want to out prioritise your opponent all the time
    3. You think range and priority win against speed and manoeuvrability every time
    4. You don’t like reading your opponent

    5. You want to become good quickly
    6. You hate characters with sensitive controls

    If you don’t fit the description above, then you should be able to become a good Yoshi player.

    2. Pros and Cons

    Pros:
    -Faster than most people give him credit for
    -Good priority
    -Very heavy (5th heaviest in NTSC, 3rd heaviest in PAL)
    -Can double jump cancel
    -Has great smashes
    -Has many low trajectory moves
    -Has two meteor spikes
    -Very easy combos on some characters
    -Extremely manoeuvrable in midair
    -While double jumping, weight increased drastically
    -Shield does not reduce in size, and lasts longer than other characters


    Cons:
    -Average in many areas, with no big advantages (i.e. speed, power etc)
    -Slow grab
    -Cannot jump out of shield
    -Quite easy to self-destruct or leave yourself open for low % deaths
    -Recovery can be edgeguarded easily at high %
    -No triple jump
    -Can be chainthrown by Sheik (NTSC)


    3. Yoshi’s moves

    Ground:

    Neutral A

    Kick 1:
    Damage: 2-3%
    Total frames: 17
    Hit: 3-5
    Window of kick 2: 3-25
    Kick 2 starts: 8

    Kick 2:
    Damage: 4-5%
    Total frames: 20
    Hit frames: 4-6


    This attack does 1-2 kicks, each doing very minimal damage. The purpose of this move, however, is not to do damage. This move has 2 main uses. Firstly, it can be used to throw your opponent off, by using only the first kick and then following with a quick d-smash. This only works if the opponent wasn’t expecting to be hit. The second use is simply to hit with both kicks and knock the opponent away from close combat. This is usually quite desirable with Yoshi, because he has a bit of trouble sometimes in close combat, due to his slow grab.

    Forward tilt
    Damage: 6-12% (13% max if angled up, 11% max if angled down)
    Total frames: 29
    Hit frames: 6-8


    This attack does decent damage, for a tilt attack. It is one kick, which has more range, priority and combo-ability than the neutral A. In many cases, it is the preferred attack, with similar frame data and lag, with the only disadvantage being that you cannot string 2 together. Unlike the neutral A, this attack knocks the opponent quite vertically, depending on their DI. This can lead to further combos and setups. Another use for this move is a replacement for d-tilt and d-smash when crouch cancelling. Since you can angle this attack upwards or downwards, you can use the downwards angle to serve as a crouch cancel and hit with a nice move for comboing.

    Up tilt
    Damage: 5-10%
    Total frames: 29
    Hit frames: 8-12


    Although it does not have the range of the f-tilt, the up tilt has a much greater chance of starting a combo on your opponent. Juggling with this move is quite easy, and most characters can fall prey to it at a certain %. It can also set up for upair juggles, which is a good way to rack up damage. Biggest disadvantage of this move, is that it has limited horizontal range and priority.

    Down tilt
    Damage: 5-10%
    Total frames: 23
    Hit frames: 8-10


    This is one of Yoshi’s best attacks. It has great horizontal range, little lag, and set knockback. Now, you might think that set knockback is a bad thing, because you cannot use it for a KO. However, its greatest use is not at high %, but for low damage. At low damage, you can knock characters halfway across Final Destination easily. Not only this, but for some characters with bad recoveries, (and some with good ones) this attack can be used as a spike at any %. Falco and Marth for example, if hit with d-tilt off the edge after losing their double jumps, are almost guaranteed to not make it back.

    Forward smash
    Damage: 9-17% (1% less in NTSC)
    Total frames: 47
    Charge frame: 6
    Hit frames: 14-16
    Head invincible (not nose): 12-16
    IASA: 44


    This smash is Yoshi’s most powerful smash in terms of knock back. However, its trajectory gives the opponent the opportunity to recover high, which doesn’t help your edgeguarding. Still, it is very reliable as a KO move. The special thing about this move, however, is that when Yoshi uses it, he pulls his head back. In fact, he pulls himself about half a body length backwards. You can then use this fact to avoid an attack by charging your f-smash, then releasing in your opponent’s lag to punish them.

    Down smash
    Damage: 1st hit- 7-14%, 2nd hit 6-12%
    Total frames: 49
    Charge frame: 4
    Hit frame: 6-8 1st hit, 21-22 2nd hit


    This is Yoshi’s fastest smash, and has a very low trajectory. It’s great for KOing fast fallers, and for a quick and powerful finishing move. Has quite punishable lag however, so try to use it where you won’t get punished for it. Generally used as a more powerful substitute of the d-tilt when the opponent’s damage gets high enough. Also has more range than you might think. You can also do a reverse down smash if you’re close enough to the opponent. Simply face away from the opponent, and down smash, and you will hit a shielding or CCing opponent with both hits.

    Up smash
    Damage: 8-15% (1% less in NTSC)
    Total frames: 43
    Charge frame: 6
    Hit frame: 11-15
    Head invincible: 11-15
    IASA: 40


    This is one of Yoshi’s best vertical killing moves. It has a nice arc behind him, and has very nice priority. Yoshi even distorts his body around with this attack, so it can be used as a quick evasion + punishment attack when your opponent aims for Yoshi's head. Be careful however, you can only hit people at Yoshi’s head height with this attack, unless they are behind you.

    Dash attack
    Damage: 9% max
    Total frames: 43
    Hit frames: 10-23
    Head invincible (not nose): 5-13
    IASA: 42


    Yoshi’s standard dash attack. Lunges forward, lasts for a long time, and has a lot of priority. Useful for edgeguarding Fox/Falco forward B recoveries. Be careful using it at the edge however, the momentum can carry you off the edge after the attack finishes. Many times have I tried to sidestep dodge after a dash attack only to midair dodge off the edge and fall to my doom.

    Air:

    Neutral Aerial
    Damage: 7-14%
    Total frames: 47
    Hit frames: 3-33
    IASA: 45
    Auto cancel: <2 36>
    Landlag: 15
    L-cancelled: 7


    Standard sex kick style attack. Stays out for a fair amount of time, has high priority and does decent damage. More useful DJC’d or RDJC’d.

    Forward Aerial
    Damage: 9-17%
    Total frames: 49
    Hit frames: 19-21
    IASA: 44
    Auto cancel: <3 36>
    Landlag: 21
    L-cancelled: 10


    Yoshi’s standard spike. Has great priority and a long windup. Great for comboing because it anti-spikes when it hits the opponent on the ground. This can lead into up-tilts, then up-airs, and rack up a lot of damage. Generally hard to land, but a great move if you do manage to land it.

    Back Aerial
    Damage: 12-20% for all 4 hits
    Total frames: 39
    Hit frames: 10-12, 16-18, 23-25, 28-30
    IASA: 38
    Auto cancel: <9 33>
    Landlag: 15
    L-cancelled: 7


    This is Yoshi’s main multi-hit attack. It’s great for comboing, especially into itself. You can use it to combo into up-airs for the KO on floaty characters, or to create a juggling opportunity for fast fallers. It also has very little lag after the last tail swing, allowing you to short hop a b-air without fastfalling or needing to l-cancel. This is probably one of Yoshi’s most useful moves.

    Up Aerial
    Damage: 8-13%
    Total frames: 39
    Hit frames: 5-6
    IASA: 39
    Auto cancel: <4 33>
    Landlag: 19
    L-cancelled: 9


    This is Yoshi’s vertical KOing aerial move, and best aerial juggling move. It is usually best used DJC’d. This is because it allows you to return to the ground quicker, and increases the chances of you landing another hit. Keep in mind, this attack is difficult to l-cancel, because Yoshi’s feet flip above his head and its difficult to tell when he’ll hit the ground. Don’t worry though, because with a bit of practice you can get it down.

    Down Aerial
    Damage: Info from Yagi
    NTSC: 14 hits – 51%
    13 hits – 48%
    12 hits - 44%
    11 hits - 40%
    10 hits - 36%
    9 hits - 33%
    8 hits - 29%
    7 hits - 25%
    6 hits - 22%
    5 hits - 18%
    4 hits - 14%
    3 hits - 11%
    2 hits - 8%
    1 hits - 4%
    (PAL does roughly 1% less per hit making max damage 38%)
    Total frames: 59
    Hit frames: 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, 38, 40, 42, 44
    IASA: 53
    Auto cancel: <15 50>
    Landlag: 26
    L-cancelled: 13


    This is a very fun move to use. It is great at racking up damage, and a lot of NTSC players use it for this purpose. PAL players mostly don’t, however, because of the considerable drop in damage between versions. It is also arguably Yoshi’s best meteor spike. Although it has less knockback (or even knockdown) than his f-air, the Yoshi player can actually use it to meteor an opponent multiple times, effectively dragging him down towards the kill zone at the bottom of the screen. Since Yoshi’s double jump has considerable height, he can use this move to drag an opponent to below their possible recovery depth, and still manage to surface himself. This is a fantastic way to get a KO as Yoshi, because it makes it extremely difficult for any character to come back, and racks up damage on those that can.


    Special attacks – B attacks:

    Neutral B
    Damage: 4-7%

    This move is arguably Yoshi’s replacement for his grab. It is faster, has less lag if you miss, and has more range. Also, this move releases the opponent into an egg out of Yoshi’s ***, which has given it the name ‘Egg poop’. While in the egg, the opponent has to mash buttons to get out. If they mash too much, they might do an extremely laggy attack straight out of the egg, allowing you to combo them. If they don’t mash enough, you can attack them while they’re in the egg, racking up their damage. Also, if you expect them to mash a lot, you can position yourself under the egg before they break out, and then start to juggle them with up-airs or whatever is more appropriate at the time. This move can even be used to fake out shield grabbers (specifically cowardly Sheik players that are aiming to chain grab Yoshi) because it can be used in mid-air.

    Forward B
    Damage: 11% max

    This move, is IMO Yoshi’s worst move. It has little priority, is difficult to control and is mostly useless. Some people argue that this move can be used for recovery, but the majority of the time you’re far better off midair dodging. The only real application of this move is that when used aerially, it halts your decent for a few moments, similar to Marth’s forward B. If you can use this to dodge an edgeguarding move, then land on the ground and roll away in the hope that you’re not followed quickly.

    There is one nice little trick you can do with the egg roll, which is egg rolling off the edge. This is done by egg rolling away from the edge (strangely enough), then holding the direction you want to roll (i.e. press right + b while holding the edge facing left, then hold left). The egg roll will give you enough height to get over the edge, and the backwards direction stops you from hitting the edge and bouncing off, falling to your doom. For some reason, you don’t even get the skidding that you normally get from trying to egg roll backwards. This is especially fun to do on Corneria, because the fin has a large slope on it, making you roll extra fast. Keep this as a little trick to show off to your friends, however, because it isn’t very practical.

    Up B
    Damage: 6-12%
    Total frames: 54 (For Yoshi)
    Projectile comes out: 18
    Projectile lasts: 55 (explodes on 56)
    Eggsplosion: Hit frames: 1-3
    Can grab edges from frame 19 and up


    This is Yoshi’s only real projectile (the stars on his down B don’t count). He pulls his arm back, and tosses an egg at the opponent. The important thing about this move is that it is extremely versatile. You can hit an opponent directly above you, or on a platform in front of you, or a recovering opponent below you. There is also an advanced strategy involving this move, called Edge Cancelled Eggs, which I will cover later. It is good to remember that the egg loops towards the opponent, so on the ground they can simply dash underneath it. To prevent this, you often have to throw eggs where you expect them to dash to, not to where they are.

    A nice effect of this move is that it always knocks the opponent upwards. Because of this, you can use it to keep a floaty opponent airborne, or to create a setup for a combo on a fast faller. If the opponent is off the edge, you can even use it to pop them up high enough to safely spike them to their doom. All in all, a very useful projectile.

    Down B
    Damage: 8-14%
    --From ground--
    Hit frames: 27-land
    Can grab edges from 28
    Lands on frame 36 (even surface)
    --From air--
    Hit frames: 19-land
    Can grab edges from 18
    --Upon landing—
    Total frames: 40
    Hit frames (for stars): 1-16


    Also known as Yoshi bomb, this move is an effective vertical KOing move, and a great combo breaker. If you’re getting juggled, often all you need to do is time a down B so that your opponent misses with his juggle, and you come crashing down on top of him. Keep in mind that this move is extremely laggy when you hit the ground, so if you miss (and often if you hit at low %) you will most likely get punished for it. The only thing that prevents this punishment is the two little stars that come out either side of Yoshi when he lands with this attack. It is quite easy to underestimate the time those stars are out, and come in to punish Yoshi, only to get 0.5-1% damage from the star, and the Yoshi gets time to recover. One way to cut the lag on this move, is to use it above the edge. If you use down B above the edge, facing it, you will grab the edge while flying past it. This is great for preventing edgeguards a lot of the time, because the opponent may not want to risk being hit by the down b as you fly past. However, do NOT hold down when you use this to grab the edge. Holding down tells Yoshi that you don’t want him to grab the edge, so he doesn’t, and you hurtle to your doom. If you’re wary of this, and the fact that it is easy for someone to knock you out of your down b if they’re expecting it, you should be able to use it effectively.


    Throws:

    Forward throw: 6% damage
    Back throw: 6% damage
    Up throw: 5% damage
    Down throw: 4% damage

    Yoshi unfortunately has no throws that he can KO with effectively. This leaves you limited to the up and down throws for comboing, or the basic back and forward throws to throw your opponent off the edge and prepare to edgeguard them. Usually, Yoshi’s down throw is the best option, because its knockback varies little from its original knockback. Floatier characters are impossible to combo with any of your grabs, but fast fallers and heavier characters are often easy to combo from the down throw. For example, if a Falco doesn’t DI away from Yoshi, then you are guaranteed to be able to hit with a f-smash, up-smash, DJC’d up-air, whatever you think will combo or KO better at the time. On Marth, if he does not DI away from you, you can hit with an up-air only just before he is able to retaliate. On Pikachu, you are almost guaranteed to hit with a f-air after the down throw. Just remember that although Yoshi’s grab combos may be good, his grab is the worst in the game, and you will always have more trouble landing it than you would with another character.



    Yoshi statistics:



    Some grabbing stats: (From Mew2king and Superdoodleman)

    Grab range order
    1) Samus
    2) Link
    3) Young Link
    4) Marth
    5) Roy
    6) Yoshi
    7) Kirby
    8) Sheik

    Grab speed:
    Standing Grab:
    Hit frames: 18-23
    Total frames: 79
    Dash Grab:
    Hit frames: 11-16
    Total frames: 70


    Yoshi’s dash grab is faster by 7 frames to catch the opponent, and has less lag than his standing grab, making it the preferred option. Unfortunately, Yoshi’s dash grab can go through the opponent if you don’t space it properly, so keep it in mind. It also has fairly bad range considering the time it takes to grab. Don't take this wrong though, grabbing is an important part of many character's strategies, so don't discount it completely just because yours is slow. You just need to learn when to use it.

    Some more Yoshi frame information: (From SuperDoodleMan)

    Ledge stand <100%

    Total frames: 33
    Invincible: 1-30
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge stand 100%>

    Total frames: 59
    Invincible: 1-55
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge roll <100%

    Total frames: 49
    Invincible: 1-23
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge roll 100%>

    Total frames: 79
    Invincible: 1-69
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge attack <100%

    Total frames: 55
    Invulnerable: 1-15
    Hit: 19-23
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge attack 100%>

    Total frames: 69
    Invulnerable: 1-29
    Hit: 33-37
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge jump <100%

    Total frames: 37
    Invulnerable: 1-13
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge jump 100%>

    Total frames: 47
    Invincible: 1-25
    -------------------------------------
    Jump: airborne on frame 6

    Air time: 56
    Earliest FF: 29
    FF air time: 40

    SH air time: 40
    Earliest FF: 22
    SH FF air time: 27
    -------------------------------------
    Taunt

    Total: 80
    YOSHI!!: 20
    Shield cancellable: 68 (or later)
    -------------------------------------

    Air dodge
    Invulnerable: 4-29 out of 49

    Ground dodge
    Invulnerable: 2-15 out of 22

    Roll
    Invulnerable: 1-34 out of 34

    Dash becomes run on frame 14
    Turn-jump Threshold: 36
    Run turnaround: 36


    Here are some statistics of scream percentages for Falco’s forward smash on Yoshi. Me and Quetzalcoatl both came up with this list for an accurate measure of the difference crouch cancelling and double jump cancelling has to the distance that your character is hit by an attack. For those who don’t know, scream percentages is the most accurate way to measure attack power, because kill percentages can be very inconsistent based on position in the level, and DI.

    Standing -
    Scream 1 44% - 61%
    Scream 2 132% - 149%

    CC –
    Break 40% - 57%
    Scream 1 99% - 116%
    Scream 2 231% - 248%

    DJC -
    Break 40% - 57%
    Scream 1 150% - 167%
    Scream 2 238% - 255%

    These statistics show pre-hit and post-hit percentages, as well as the point at which Yoshi’s CC and DJC break. From this data, you can see that Yoshi’s double jump has the same breaking point that crouch cancelling has. In other words, if you ever crouch cancel a hit without Yoshi falling over, you can then say that you could have double jumped through that same attack. Also, you can see that DJC is considerably similar to CC in terms of reduction in power of your opponent’s move, with the big difference being the DI direction. At lower percentages, DJC seems to be a greater reduction, but it seems to even out at higher percentages. Not that it really matters at 235% against Falco’s forward smash anyway.


    Yoshi’s ‘different’ shield:

    Yoshi’s shield has a few interesting properties about it. Here’s a list of proven differences.

    -It does not diminish in size, thus he cannot have his feet or head clipped.
    -It lasts for 1 frame longer than the average shield, so it is slightly more difficult to break his shield.
    -His shielding animation causes him to be invincible for a couple of frames, which sometimes causes a hitting animation when you sidestep an attack.
    -His unshielding animation takes 1 frame longer than most characters, making it slightly slower to start a d-tilt or d-smash out of shield.
    -If Yoshi light shields an attack, he will slide extremely quickly away from the opponent.
    -Powershielding a projectile makes no sound
    -Yoshi cannot jump out of shield.
    -Yoshi can jump out of his invincible shielding animation.


    Advanced strategies:


    Double jump cancel (DJC) and reverse double jump cancel (RDJC):

    The double jump cancel is one of Yoshi’s first advanced moves you should learn. It is, as the name suggests, cancelling your double jump with an attack so you don’t use it to its fullest length. This can be quite useful, because often your entire double jump height is too high to be useful. Probably the most important thing about this, is that Yoshi’s double jump has the same speed and acceleration no matter what your speed was before. This means, you can DJC after fast falling or jumping upwards and it will achieve the same effect.

    Because of this, one of the main uses of the DJC is to change your movement speed instantaneously aerially. Effectively this gives you a large amount of aerial manoeuvrability, which is a powerful weapon. Also, there is the RDJC, or reverse double jump cancel. Since Yoshi’s double jump has the ability to turn him around in midair, you can use this to gain manoeuvrability.

    Another property of Yoshi’s double jump cancel which is harder to use, and is not always effective, is the DJCC, or double jump cancel counter. Referring back to one of Yoshi’s pros, his double jump gives him such a greater weight that he doesn’t flinch to a lot of attacks at low damage. You can then use this to DJC through an opponent’s attack, and retaliate as if you had never been damaged.

    Uses include:
    -Dash jump away, then DJC/RDJC to stop your horizontal movement and surprise attack a following opponent.
    -Jump off the ground, then DJC an attack to stop your vertical movement and fall to the ground again. This allows you to fast fall earlier in your jump than usual. You can use this as a replacement for SHFFLing, because it is considerably faster. This is great for juggling opponents with up-airs, because you can return to the ground extremely quickly, and follow with your next up-air.
    -Use your double jump with the right timing so you can go through your opponent’s attack and DJCC.

    Disadvantages include:

    -Extreme vulnerability after using a DJC. If hit off the edge after the DJC, you will most likely fall to your doom. See section on Untumbling.
    -DJCC still lets you take damage, and if your opponent uses stronger moves than you, and you don’t manage to combo him/her, then you have lost out of that exchange.
    -DJCC doesn’t work at high percentage, because you will be knocked a small distance, and be unable to counter.


    Edge Cancelled Eggs

    When Yoshi throws an egg, it has a certain windup time until the egg is thrown, and then you have wind down time until you can move again. One advantage Yoshi has, is that if you have thrown an egg and are still winding down or lagging, you will be able to grab onto an edge, as if you had never thrown the egg. Now, if you combine this with Yoshi’s DJC, you get the main use of edge cancelled eggs. Basically, what you do, is drop from the edge, double jump, and do an egg throw. If you have given yourself sufficient height to allow the entire windup of the egg throw to finish, you can then grab the edge again, and repeat. This allows you, after a lot of practice, to be able to increase your speed between egg throws, and keep yourself in a relatively unpunishable position. Not only that, but because of the looping nature of the egg throws, you can actually use the height you’re throwing from to your advantage. It is a lot harder to get underneath an edge egg than a normal egg.

    Uses include:

    -A way to disrupt your opponent’s edgeguard
    -Look extremely flashy
    -Can use the edge’s invincibility to go through attacks and punish your opponent
    -Faster egg spam than usual
    -Being below the range of the majority of projectiles, allowing you to counter the opponent’s spam
    -A way to grab the edge backwards
    -Use it as an instant edge hog, by running towards the edge, then egg throwing and sliding off the edge.

    Disadvantages include:
    -Since you use your double jump, if hit while doing this leaves you extremely vulnerable, and you can be KO’d by a simple needle from Sheik.
    -Extremely risky and easy to not get enough height and die, or to get too much height and get punished
    -Difficulty increases with the speed you are doing it at

    Learning the edge egg:

    There is a little trick to learning the edge egg. Most people complain that they can’t do it. Other than not putting in the time to get the timing down well, they are also dieing quite a lot while practicing, which is frustrating. The best way to do it is to start by simply double jumping higher than the edge, and throwing an egg, and letting yourself fall to the edge again. Then, slowly work your way down, reducing the amount of double jump you use each time. This way, you’ll get faster at it, and not die all the time. Also remember, that in battle, it is not the speed you can edge egg at that counts, it is whether you can time it right. The speed comes with time, but the timing is much more important. Remember to always have your finger poised above the midair dodge button, especially when edge egging, because you never know when you might need to use it.

    Wavedashing:

    Wavedashing is quite a simple concept if you’ve never done it before. It is midair dodging diagonally into the ground, giving you a horizontal sliding motion. It can be done while falling towards the ground, jumping past a platform etc, or while jumping straight off the ground. Yoshi has fairly low traction, giving him quite a decent wavedash, which can be used for some quite decent ground movement that would be near-impossible to achieve otherwise.

    The main uses of wavedash, usually involve wavedashing backwards to avoid an attack and retaliate, or wavedashing onto a platform or onto the edge. Offensive wavedashing is possible, but it is difficult to do with Yoshi, because he doesn’t have many moves that have little enough lag to not get punished for it. This isn’t the most useful strategy in the game, but it looks really cool, and is heaps of fun.

    Double jump landing:

    Yoshi’s double jump has an interesting property to it. In the first couple of frames, he actually travels downwards. During these frames, if you reach the height where you should be standing on the ground, you will land. This is quite difficult however, with the timing varying a lot.

    Uses:

    -Landing right after a jump, similar to wavedashing, but with less lag and no horizontal distance
    -Landing on a platform, so that you don’t have to do a full jump then fastfall onto it. Yet another replacement for the wavedash, but with less lag and no horizontal distance covered
    -Making Yoshi look like he just went crazy to throw off your opponent (perhaps)
    -Using near invulnerability of his double jump, you can do a DJLC (double jump land counter). This is extremely difficult to do, because the timing is horrendous, but it’s there.
    -Quick turn around while dashing. Normally Yoshi has a slow sliding animation when he turns around while dashing (not including dash dancing), but if you DJL you can automatically dash the other way.
    -Replacement for a tech.

    Disadvantages:

    -Difficult to perform consistently.
    -Most uses involve being faster than a wavedash, although the wavedash is often more useful.

    Platform Cancelling:

    I hate this personally. This was originally discovered by falling through a platform and using n-air and l-cancelling quickly after falling through, and you would land on the platform again. However, with characters with slow interruptible double jumps, (i.e. any character that can DJC) can platform cancel a slightly different way. When passing through a platform (or double jumping past an edge), you can use an aerial attack, and you will automatically appear standing on the platform, as if you had wavedashed onto it. This can be quite annoying in the middle of a combo, where you plan on using an aerial to attack your opponent and then suddenly appear on the platform/edge and do a tilt attack instead. From what I’ve seen, this is mostly a useless move, unless you’re unconfident about wavedashing onto a platform and want to have a chance of using an aerial on your opponent if you make a mistake. Just keep it in mind, because it can interrupt your combos when you least expect it.

    It can actually be used as an equivalent to DJLing on a platform or edge, for when you have already used your Double Jump to get that height. As with DJLing, it's usefulness extends only to being slightly faster than Wavedashing onto the platform/edge, and thus you can attack or otherwise move sooner.

    Powershield jumping:

    Yoshi unfortunately cannot jump out of his shield. This is quite a large disadvantage, because coupled with his slow shield grab, he is left with no really good out of shield options. Powershield jumping comes in here. If Yoshi manages to powershield either a projectile (also known as shield reflecting) or a physical attack, he can jump out and retaliate, or he can jump cancel an attack. This, like the DJLC is extremely difficult, and most players don’t use it because it is often quite unpredictable when Yoshi will powershield.

    A nice little trick you can use against projectiles, is that you can crouch powershield some of them. A good example is Samus’s standing missiles. If a missile is flying towards you, you can crouch under it, and when it reaches the exact right position, (about above his saddle) you press shield and you will be almost guaranteed the powershield. Pressing jump at the right time after this allows you to follow the missile a lot faster than usual. Of course, if you can jump out, you can also wavedash out, which is even better in this particular example.

    Instant edgehog:

    This is one of Yoshi’s most useful strategies. It exploits a couple of things about Yoshi’s double jump. Firstly, you can turn around with your double jump. Second, you move downwards in the first couple of frames of your double jump. Since you are moving downwards, you will gain the same attributes as falling, which include being able to grab the edge (if you haven’t noticed, you can’t grab the edge while travelling upwards past it). Therefore, if you run off the edge, then reverse double jump, you will instantly grab the edge. Considering your near invulnerability during your double jump, and your invincibility of grabbing the edge, you can actually edgehog an opponent extremely well using this technique.

    This technique can be used as a replacement to the backwards wavedash edgehog which all characters have.

    Egg dropping:

    I have only recently begun to use this technique, and although it's not the most useful, it isn't useless either. Egg dropping is achieved by jumping in the air, then smashing up on your joystick and pressing B. This begins the double jump for 1 or 2 frames, then cancels it, allowing you to fall quite quickly to the ground. It is quite a good fakeout to bait your opponent for a juggle, and if you angle the joystick correctly, you can achieve a decent amount of horizontal movement, and dodge attacks coming from the side as well as from above. Used at the right height can even perform a short wavedash like motion, allowing you to throw an egg earlier than you could with a wavedash to egg throw. Also, it stops any horizontal movement you had before, so you can dodge an attack that was aimed based on your movement speed. If performed correctly, Yoshi should not turn around with his double jump, even if you are Egg dropping backwards.

    The original Egg Dropping thread

    Untumbling or Wiggling:

    Have you ever been trying to recover without your double jump and not been able to mid-air dodge for the recovery because you are tumbling? Ever had to either use an attack like b-air to stop tumbling, or use egg roll for recovery instead? Well, there’s a better option. To untumble, (or wiggle) you simply need to keep smashing the joystick left and right until you stop tumbling, and fall straight. This is fantastic to help your recovery, because the egg roll is pretty useless, and using an attack to untumble with won’t help if you are near the edge, and you will fall too far during the attack’s lag.

    There is a slightly more advanced version of untumbling I use, which is harder to use, but much more practical. Often, when smashing left right continuously, you lose momentum from your falling, and can often lose so much that your untumbling was put to waste. That is why, when I do it, I simply hold towards the edge, and when I want to untumble I’ll just smash away then towards the edge again (i.e. if the left is towards the edge, I hold left, then smash right then left quickly). This makes you lose the minimum amount of momentum, and maximises your recovery distance.


    Light shielding:

    Light shielding by definition, is holding your shield button down lightly, to achieve a slightly different shield effect to full shielding. With most characters, you can tell if they are light shielding, because their shield increases in size, becomes a lighter colour and depletes slower. It also allows every character to slide further than usual from an attack, taking slightly more shield lag.

    The first main difference Yoshi has with his light shield is that the effect is invisible. You cannot tell the difference between a full shield and a light shield, until the shield is hit. Once Yoshi is hit, however, he gains a tremendous amount of horizontal movement for the power of the attack he is hit with. For relatively strong attacks, you can slide anywhere between the half and the full length of Final Destination while light shielding.

    Here’s a couple of my tricks for using light shielding. I find that it is best to use Z to light shield, instead of holding the shield button lightly, because it is considerably easier. Unfortunately, pressing Z outright will cause you to grab, which doesn’t help if you want to space yourself from your opponent. So, the best ways to buffer Z for the light shield include: using Z instead of L/R to L-cancel; sidestep or roll and hold Z while invincible; or wavedash and hold Z in the lagging frames. Doing these can help you light shield when you need it, and not rely on your finger pushing L or R in just the right amount.

    Uses:
    - Sliding away from your opponent to allow plenty of distance and time for you to recover.
    - Team move to allow you to approach the opponent while shielding

    Disadvantages:
    - Possible to slide too far and not be able to shield grab should the opportunity arise.
    - Difficult to get maximum slide distance without accidentally unshielding (unless using Z).


    Finish:

    This is the end of part 1 of my guide, which is effectively just an FAQ on different moves and their uses. I am still currently working on my character specific matchups section, which I will add once it is completed. I hope you all enjoyed reading this, and learnt something from it. If there are any problems, involving grammar or paragraphing, or even errors in my advice, please don't hesitate to post here, PM me or email me.
     
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  2. rmusgrave

    rmusgrave
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    BRoomer

    Joined:
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    Character Specific: Incomplete

    I haven't actually done any work on this recently, due to exams and such, but I plan to. Here's a very incomplete set of character matchups, to quell some of the questions we've been having recently.

    7. Character Matchups:

    These rankings and matchups are my view as to how well Yoshi does in his matchups. If you feel something needs to be changed, please contact me and I’ll check out the points you raise. Also, to interpret the rankings, think of it this way. A 5:5 ratio is an even matchup, a 1:9 matchup is a matchup that Yoshi will have very little chance of winning, and a 10:0 matchup is one that Yoshi cannot lose.

    Top tier:

    Sheik
    2:8 NTSC (due to chain throwing)
    5:5 PAL

    Sheik is very fast, and very strong. She has fantastic combos, all of which can be started from a simple grab. She can even chain grab Yoshi from 0% all the way up to at least 60%. However, Sheik lacks horizontal movement aerially, and due to a short dash dance, also has low horizontal evasion on the ground. She also has a sub par shorthop. These are areas where Yoshi can win in this matchup, and quite often Sheik players have difficulty countering a Yoshi player if they know how to take advantage of this.

    In this matchup, you have to watch your opponent carefully, and rely on good spacing. In midair, Yoshi cannot compete with Sheik’s fair if he approaches from underneath, and cannot compete with Sheik’s bair if he approaches from above. So if you see, or can predict which direction your opponent is facing, you can then beat Sheik in an aerial confrontation. If she jumps facing towards you, you can use fair while staying outside of Sheik’s fair range, and this will slam her into the ground, so you can follow up a tech or a roll with a DJC. If she jumps facing away, you can jump up from underneath and bair or upair her, and you have a very good chance of going under Sheik’s bair or over Sheik’s dair. The only thing to watch with this strategy is that Sheik can turn around aerially by charging needles. If she does this, RDJC away, because you will be positioned wrong and will be punished (unless of course you can consistently DJC through the opponent’s attack)

    In terms of defence, try not to shield. If you shield you can be grabbed, and this spells death to Yoshi against NTSC Sheik. Instead, rely on your manoeuvrability. Dash away and RDJC will beat any reckless approach Sheik approach, and the pullback on your fsmash can dodge attacks with the right spacing. All in all, you should be able to win in defence. Unfortunately, Sheik can use needles to force you to attack. The only advice I can give you on the offensive is to try your best to not get shield grabbed.

    Edgeguarding Sheik is normally quite a difficult task, because she can easily sweetspot the edge, and her upb attack makes her invincible. Your best option for edgeguarding Sheik is to instant edgehog her when she gets near, forcing her to upb onto the stage. In the amount of time it takes her to land and lag, you can get up, turn around and down smash her off the edge again. Then simply rinse and repeat. (Fair, dair, and dtilt have their uses, but this is the most effective strategy I’ve come up with.)

    I've been told to edit this part in, as it is apparently useful -

    A lot of you guys talking about down tilt are actually not far off the track. If find that I'm most comfortable against Sheik when I'm d-tilt distance away from her on the ground. That way, I can approach with a DJC aerial, I can RDJC around a short hop f-air or even f-smash if the spacing is right. If the Sheik is gonna do a short hot fast fall needles, al you need to do is either dash under and upsmash when you've just past her, or run past and f-smash behind her. Also, at the d-tilt range, you're far enough away to not be grabbed, and d-tilt and f-air are both long enough for you to use to keep her from getting closer and shieldgrabbing you.


    Fox:
    3:7 NTSC
    4.5:5.5 PAL

    Fox is THE fastest character in the game. His wavedash, dashdance and fast falling speed can give him a greater ability to dodge attacks than Yoshi, which is not a good thing when it is one of Yoshi’s strengths. He can infinite Yoshi against a wall, or along a flat path (although Yoshi is probably the most difficult to infinite). Yet, besides these advantages, Yoshi isn’t at a complete loss. His weight makes it difficult for Fox to lift him off the ground while CCing, allowing Yoshi to retaliate quite well. Yoshi is also a good juggler of fast fallers at many different damages.

    The main thing to remember in this matchup, is that on the ground, Fox can achieve tremendous horizontal movement and evasiveness, and because of his fast jump, can achieve vertical movement very well. Where Fox is somewhat lacking in manoeuvrability is when he is already in midair. This is when you must strike, because you can out prioritise him aerially. Using this and wavedashing to dtilt, you can stave off the Fox onslaught until juggling friendly percentages.

    Your best juggling moves, specifically against fast fallers, are your uptilt and upair. These can be chained together quite easily, and once you reach the right percentage, a nair will knock Fox off the edge, for the easy edgeguard. However, these moves aren’t the easiest to land so here are a couple of my setups for them. If you can manage to grab Fox, which usually only happens if you shield grab a smash attack, you can quite often chain an upthrow or dthrow into upsmash or upair into further juggles. Bair is great because it lifts the opponent upwards as well as across, and if you move through the opponent while hitting them, you’ll be in position for the upair or uptilt.

    Edgeguarding Fox with Yoshi is fairly easy, at least easier than Sheik is. If you can time it right, a downtilt on firefox or illusion will knock Fox to his furthest possible reaching distance of his firefox before he can do it again. Then you can simply edgehog for the KO. You can also use dair to spike Fox, as it can drag him down below his firefox recovery height and because it is a multihit move, it will prevent most attempts of meteor recovering.


    Marth:
    4:6 NTSC/PAL

    Marth has the longest range in the game, and this is probably the only advantage he has over Yoshi. Because of this range, it can be incredibly difficult to hit a Marth player that is playing defensively enough. Marth can combo Yoshi quite well, mostly because he can reach so far and nullify any retaliation that you could do. He also has a long dash dance and wavedash, allowing him to run away from an attack and then retaliate fairly quickly with a grab or pivot to f-smash. However, Yoshi definitely has some good advantages that he can use.

    Firstly, Yoshi is very heavy. His weight can prevent some combos from even starting, if you CC correctly. However, a tipped attack will almost always break your CC, ruining your chance of retaliating. That’s where your f-smash comes in. As you know, Yoshi’s f-smash is his strongest move, and has considerable pull back on it. Therefore, if you see Marth aim a tipped attack such as f-air or f-smash at you, your best option would be to f-smash him back.You also have quite good range on your d-tilt, so I would advise using this as much as possible where it fits.

    Now, a while back, there was a big theory that Yoshi countered Marth, because he can DJC through his attacks, and retaliate. To an extent that is still true, because Marth’s non-tipped attacks are usually weak enough for you to DJC through, then combo with uptilts, upairs, bairs, whatever. Probably one of Yoshi’s most applicable examples of DJCC on Marth, is when you’re DJing to follow up a combo, and Marth attempts to stop you with an attack, yet you can DJ right through it. It makes it a lot easier to punish him this way.

    Edgeguarding Marth is quite easy, compared to some characters. It’s painfully obvious to be able to tell if Marth aims to sweetspot the edge, so you should be ready to instant edge hog him to doom should the opportunity arise. If he’s wary of this, he may aim higher, which gives you the option of your d-tilt spike. Unfortunately your d-tilt doesn’t outrange Marth’s up-b attack, but on low % you should be able to CC into d-tilt, and since d-tilt has fixed knockback it’s a KO at even 0%. Your other options include dair, fair and d-smash edgeguards, with a small possibility to use your f-smash to avoid the slash of the up-b.

    High tier:

    Peach:
    3:7 NTSC/PAL

    Peach is Yoshi’s worst matchup in PAL, and 2nd worst in NTSC. Her priority both on the ground and in mid-air are amazing, and she has some really nice combos. Not only that, but she has the fastest hit recovery time in the game (on par with Samus) and a n-air which hits on the 3rd frame, and has more priority than all of your aerials except for f-air. This gives her the ability to n-air her way out of a lot of combos that you could try on her.

    The first problem most people have with Peach is her turnips. They can be quite annoying, because to beat a lot of her approach attacks you need to use a slower, but more powerful and higher priority move. Then, all Peach needs to do to attack you is throw a turnip in front, and it will interrupt your move and give her a free shot for hers. The best way to deal with her turnips is to catch them in midair. You can do so by pressing Z in midair when the turnip is near enough to you. Another little trick you can do is the mid-air dodge to grab turnip, where you mid-air dodge at the right time, and in the 4 frame startup of the midair dodge press Z (or hold L/R + press A). Then once you’ve caught it, you can use it quite well. It’s also good to keep in mind that if you shield an attack while holding an item, pressing shield grab will throw the item, and you can throw the item in any direction from shield.

    The second problem is usually Peach’s dash attack. It is a fast and fairly high priority move which does decent damage and sets up for some of her combos quite well. Many of your standard methods of evading moves do not work against her dash attack. Eg, the dash attack is faster than Yoshi’s WD backwards assuming Peach does not attack prematurely, and has too little lag to be shield grabbed. The only real forms of punishment I have discovered are to either d-tilt her before she gets the dash out, or to try and RDJC around it or DJC through it. There is another option to light shield the dash attack, and the pushback will give you time to avoid getting any follow up.

    The third problem you will have is Peach’s float cancelling. Properly done, a float cancelled attack is unpunishable by even the fastest shield cancelled move. This obviously prevents Yoshi from retaliating at all from shield, thus your best option is to light shield the attack, or to not shield at all. It is wise to watch Peach’s spacing when she does this move, because if she spaces the float cancel correctly you can use the pull back on your f-smash to evade and retaliate straight away. You also have the option of RDJCing around, and DJCing through, but remember that she only has 4 frames of lag once she hits the ground, and some of these attempts can be punished very quickly.

    The main objective of this match is to either knock Peach off the side and use Yoshi’s amazing edgeguarding skills to prevent her from coming back, or to rack up her damage and go for a vertical KO. The best part of this is that Peach has little to no priority underneath her, and your up-air has quite decent priority. This can allow you to up-air juggle Peach even past percentages that she would normally be able to retaliate. Using this and eggs, you should be able to rack up a fair bit of damage if Peach is above you.

    Edgeguarding Peach is a tricky business, because she has a great recovery. Generally, if you have hit with any attack except for d-tilt or d-smash, she should be able to recover high enough to avoid any edgeguarding, and the best you can do is use eggs to damage her, and aim to keep her above you to rack up more damage. If she is recovering low, however, there’s a few little tricks you can use. Firstly, if she is floating, toss eggs at her, and slightly in front. That way, she will either lose her float or have to float back out of the way, and effectively reduce the distance her float can take her. Once she isn’t floating, and is relying on her parasol, you simply have to watch her. If she appears to be aiming for the edge, or is too low to do otherwise, be prepared to instant edge hog her at the last moment to prevent her recovering. If she doesn’t appear to be aiming for the edge, stand at the edge, ready to d-tilt, d-smash, up-smash or otherwise punish her choice of not going for the edge.

    Falco:
    6:4 NTSC/PAL

    Falco is another fast faller, like Fox. Although their falling speeds are different in terms of acceleration and max speeds, they tend to have the same comboability. Falco also doesn’t have the speed that Fox has on the ground, allowing you to punish him more in that area. What he does have, however, is a laser that can interrupt your movement, and the ability to do the SHL (Short hop laser). This combined allows him to force his own pace and spacing on the match.

    The SHL is a tricky manoeuvre to beat, because it can pin you down, and you can’t rely on things like shield dashing and shield jumping with Yoshi. A nice little trick I have learnt is to duck under any high lasers to prevent from being stunned, and you can crouch powershield them back if you want. Because high lasers are missing, the Falco player will most likely aim for low lasers. If they are low enough (roughly about Yoshi’s chest height) you can powershield them as well, but from a standing position. Either that, or you can just jump over them.

    Once you’re on top of him, Yoshi should have the advantage. Upairs and uptilts are great for juggling, and dsmash and dtilt are great for knocking him off the edge. Beware of the shine, because Falco can do some really nice combos on you from shine. Probably your best setup move in this matchup is bair, so learn to use it well.

    Edgeguarding Falco is effectively the same as Fox. The best part is that Falco’s recovery is worse, and is easier to predict and edgeguard.


    Captain Falcon
    4:6 NTSC/PAL

    Captain Falcon is amazingly fast, and has amazingly good combos. Many of his combos end in his f-air (the knee), which is very powerful. He also has an amazingly long dash dance, and the ability to combo from grabs.

    I personally quite enjoy this matchup, because Falcon can combo Yoshi quite easily, and Yoshi can do the same to Falcon. The most important things to make sure of in this matchup, is that you know when to CC and when to attack. Yoshi’s CC can make or break this matchup, as it can give you great opportunities to KO or combo Falcon, but if used incorrectly can get you destroyed by a tech/roll chasing Falcon.

    Your best combo move in this matchup is b-air. It can set up for almost anything at various percentages, and quite often can lead into DJC’d upair combos. The biggest problem is that most of Falcon’s moves out prioritise Yoshi’s bair, so you have to aim it when the Falcon isn’t expecting it. It’s also important to note that Falcon doesn’t get comboed as easily as Fox or Falco, because he takes less lag from your hits.

    Falcon’s best move for you to CC is his Raptor Boost (forward B). For some reason, the launching effect of this attack is fairly weak, so if you can CC it, you should be able to retaliate into combo or KO moves. The best move to combo with after a CC is a tilted down f-tilt. The best move to KO with, or knock Falcon off the edge with, is d-smash. Other than that, you’re on your own. =P

    Edgeguarding Falcon is quite nice too, and this is the point where Yoshi really shines through in this matchup. Falcon’s up-B cannot sweetspot the edge. Therefore, you will always be able to (with the right timing) d-tilt his up-B recovery. If the Falcon DIs correctly, he will be able to make it to the edge with his up-B again. Then, you can simply repeat until Falcon’s damage is high enough to d-smash him too far for him to recover. D-air spike is also really useful in this matchup, because it can easily drag Falcon too far down and he won’t recover. Just be careful if you do this, because sometimes he can up-B you on your way back up, and bounce you off the wall. So, be ready to wall tech and you’ll be right.

    Samus:
    5:5 NTSC/PAL



    Low tier:

    Bowser:
    7:3 NTSC
    6:4 PAL

    Bowser is the heaviest character in the game, and is actually faster than people give him credit for. His aerials aren’t very laggy l-cancelled, and his tilts are quite fast and powerful. He also has a brilliant shield game, including shield grabbing and up B out of shield. The whirling fortress (up B) is Bowser’s best attack, and the thing that will be the most trouble for a Yoshi player.

    Yoshi’s biggest advantage in this matchup is his combos. If you can manage a low % upair or uptilt, you can combo it into uptilts and DJC’d upairs until Bowser is on roughly 70%, almost guaranteed. Then you can follow up with egg toss juggles and other upairs. Once Bowser reaches about 80% or so, it becomes easy to knock him off the edge with attacks like d-smash, where it is easy to edgeguard him.

    To edgeguard Bowser you have a few options. Firstly, if Bowser attempts to grab the edge, you can dtilt him, at any percentage. If you do this, a quick edgehog is an instant kill. You can also dair Bowser at mid-high percentages, which is a guaranteed KO if you land it. Fair keeps the usual edgeguarding usefulness. All of these techniques will force the Bowser player to attempt to recover high. If you can see this, do your best to follow underneath Bowser and d-smash him before he hits the ground. If he hits the ground, he will have very little landing lag, and will be able to use whirling fortress almost instantly, preventing you from attacking.
     
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  3. CAOTIC

    CAOTIC
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    Woxy

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    I think this is freaking awesome! The guide seems so far compelling enough to make me want to learn Yoshi - he's such a unique and complex character. It was a nice guide opening Mr. Bringer of Yoshi! I look forward to the character matchups!

    mmmm.... Yoshi v Bowser...
     
  4. Heretic_789

    Heretic_789
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    Smash Journeyman

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    Kool Guide, l found the pros and cons very interesting.
     
  5. dr.d

    dr.d
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    Smash Apprentice

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    again another very well done guide it opens my horizons even more that i have for Yoshi he's a side character for me so ya...great guide bye the way.
     
  6. UltimateYoshi

    UltimateYoshi
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    Smash Cadet

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    Jul 19, 2004
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    Excellent. I'm going to start practicing tonight!
     
  7. Shiri

    Shiri
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    Smash Chump

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    The Sunset Sudio

    Words...do not come to mind...

    :017: I don't know how I can sustain all the joy that is in my heart right now.

    A knowledgeable Yoshi player. A guide written by that player. It all makes WAY TOO MUCH SENSE. And it's all WAY TOO AWESOME.

    Good game, Bringer. You really made my day. ^___^
     
  8. King Kong

    King Kong
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    Smash Lord

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    Well done, very nice, maybe you should put something in there about egg juggling and Forward B fakeouts that would be cool. Looking forward to the rest of it. :)
     
  9. D1

    D1
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    Smash Master

    • Wii U Backroomer
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    Thx for tryin to bring good ol' Yosh into the light since most haters say he sucks.

    Go BoD!!!
     
    eyeheartlovetap likes this.
  10. rmusgrave

    rmusgrave
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    BRoomer

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    Thanks for all the praise guys! Seeing people happy with my guide makes the work all worthwile =P.

    King Kong, what do you mean about egg roll fakeouts? I've never heard of this before, so perhaps you could enlighten me? =)
     
  11. King Kong

    King Kong
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    Smash Lord

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    Uh, maybe fakeouts was the wrong word. What I mean is where you go into the egg roll and then control the control stick so that the egg stays in the same place and dosn't move. Its quite good for mindgames since the egg moves really fast and you can catch them by surprise or just roll away, I used to use it a lot when i played yoshi and it works well at first since nobody suspects it, once they catch on its pretty useless, but it helps to have that control over his egg roll.

    It really annoys people when you charge at them with the egg roll then stop, then move forward then stop and hold still then roll back then forward etc... its a pretty good mindgame. When people see Yoshi go into the egg roll they pretty much just wait for him to try and roll into them, but by holding still you're forcing them to advance on the egg, which is a little harder than it seems.

    Its kind of hard to explain what I mean, i'll have to show you in December. I'm trying to get good with Yoshi again so I can ditto you.
     
  12. Rob_Gambino

    Rob_Gambino
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    Smash Lord

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    The egg roll is suicide. It is really ez to time when to smash it.
     
  13. King Kong

    King Kong
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    Smash Lord

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    Yeah I know, i'm not saying to use the egg roll to attack, im saying use it to defend and to out psyche (hopefuly) its easy to time defence against the egg roll but its hard to attack it.
     
  14. rmusgrave

    rmusgrave
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    BRoomer

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    I tried out this egg roll fakeout thing. The only reason I can see me ever using it, would be if I had accidentally egg rolled, and needed to mindgame my way outta there. Otherwise, from what I can tell, the same effect can be achieved with dash dancing and wavedancing, only with less lag and more opportunities afterwards.

    It's not a bad idea, but I have a feeling this constitutes more mindgames than technical skill, which you cannot teach to someone through a guide. >_>
     
  15. pootTheBox

    pootTheBox
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    Smash Ace

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    Three cheers for Bringer!

    The long awaited Yosh guide! Thanks for puttin in the work to make this guide. I just recently made him one of my mains after discovering how fun it is to be him. Now maybe he will not only be one of my most used chars but also one of my strongest.
     
  16. nitro-blazer

    nitro-blazer
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    Smash Lord

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    Great Job on the Yoshi guide. It made me want to pick up Yoshi again. So i decided to use him instead of Pika.

    Great job.
     
  17. Seppukumaru

    Seppukumaru
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    Smash Cadet

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    good guide, i think you're one of the few yoshi players that could make such a detailed guide. you put in everything i could think of, and that's a lot of stuff. maybe in the next installment, you could discuss strategies against specific opponents. i would get something out of that. i'm sitting here trying to think of something to add to the guide and i really can't think of anything. you should take that as a compliment.
     
  18. Rob_Gambino

    Rob_Gambino
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    Smash Lord

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    Another good place to practice edge cancelling yours eggs is mushroom kingdomII. You get to practice it from both sides, you can have a target to aim at, and the ledges aren't far if you die.
     
  19. FalseFalco

    FalseFalco
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    Smash Master

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    Very good. I like it so far.
     
  20. DF2K

    DF2K
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    Smash Journeyman

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    Beautiful guide my friend. Can't wait for character specific strategies. :D

    I'm tempted to making Yoshi my secondary to Ness. I have a thing for DJCing characters. :D
     
  21. YOSHIDO

    YOSHIDO
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    Smash Ace

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    Congrats that a reall good basis for yoshi. But u should tell them the differnt typses of yoshis. I know some like to shuffl the flutter tail and flutter kick. But u can also play with yoshi defensively. You could also go into detail about his stunning combos. And how most chacrters after 3 hits will die. one thing i like to do. netural a kick, tail dtilt egg. The d tilt can kill at low pectentages alone if hit right.
     
  22. Thomas Tipman

    Thomas Tipman
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    Smash Champion

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    BoD is da MAN!

    wow, that was a great guide so far. it helped me figure out what my yoshi was lacking (sadly ive been neglecting him :( ). my biggest problem with yoshi was that he couldnt jump out of his sheild and ive always had on the back of my mind that power shielding would be a great substitute for it and when i saw you put that in there i was sure the guide would only get better from there on. great stuff, best guide ive read.

    *leaves to play yoshi*
     
  23. Blackman

    Blackman
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    Smash Rookie

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    yoshi aint half bad
     
  24. rmusgrave

    rmusgrave
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    BRoomer

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    I agree with you there =P


    Thanks again everyone for the support and stuff. I just got permission from SDM to use his frame data, so I'll add that to the section on moves.


    How bout requests? Other than my character specific section, which is still in production, is there anything you want to see in my guide that I haven't put there?
     
  25. null

    null
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    Smash Apprentice

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    BRINGEROFDEATH RULEZ!??!/1/!?11?!!?1/1one/1/1/1/1/!?1/!?1?!!/1backslash
     
  26. 3.14159

    3.14159
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    Smash Ace

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    How could anyone possibly hate Yoshi? Anyone who hates Yoshi sucks. Oh, great guide and stuff.
     
  27. Kaotical

    Kaotical
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    Smash Ace

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    Good stuff. Helps my Yoshi a lot. Nothing else to say. :p
     
  28. Rebel581

    Rebel581
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    Smash Champion

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    There's a Yoshi guide? Cool. I'll give it a read through when I stop hating little *****. No offense to you, he's on a scale with Ness in my mind.
     
  29. ChRed2AKrisp

    ChRed2AKrisp
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    Smash Master

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    just for that, i'm reading this guide and practicing til' my yoshi beats your ROy. then i'll be satisfied.
     
  30. ShadDude

    ShadDude
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    Smash Rookie

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    Ah, good read there. I'll take a lot of those tips into mind, got me some training to do.
     
  31. Shiri

    Shiri
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    Remix

    :017: Bringer, I think a character matchup section would be all that's left to make this guide complete.

    Maybe perhaps you could throw in your own two cents regarding properly using Yoshi's standing grab, running grab, and neutral B in terms of likelihood of success.

    One personal question I have for you that I can't seem to answer myself is the following: Yoshi's crouching powershield works wonders; however, does his regular powershielding take a different timing from the other characters to perform? That is to say, when one powershields with Peach or Sheik (both seem pretty easy to powersheild with, actually), will their timing differ from Yoshi's, assuming that his sheild takes a frame or two longer to put up than everyone else's. I can't find any frame data that says Yoshi's shield takes longer to put up, but I can't but think it at least takes one frame more to do so.

    Yoshi's shield is just weird. x_x I can't wait until I get the subtle intricacies of it down. Until then, back to more hard work. Thanks again, Bringer. ^_^
     
  32. rmusgrave

    rmusgrave
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    BRoomer

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    I don't have that much time atm.

    Yoshi's shield doesn't take longer to start up than other characters, just that his shielding animation (and powershield) doesn't have the typical powershielding animation that other characters have. It does take 1 frames longer to unshield though.

    One thing to remember when powershielding is that Yoshi's head sticks out in front of where his shield appears, so it's impossible to powershield projectiles at head height without crouch powershielding. Perhaps that's the problem you're having?

    Another thing is that for some reason, Yoshi powershields for no reason. <_<

    I've just been holding down shield sometimes, without light shielding or anything, just holding it down, and I'll powershield an attack. It's friggin' weird lol. If i could figure out what triggers it, I'd be a happy Yoshi player. (Happier)

    Hope some of that helps.
     
  33. wynaut11

    wynaut11
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    Smash Rookie

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    Wow, that is really well written. 0_o I only know one person that is naturally skilled with yoshi. my best friend's little brother, Zane. He beat my 11 year old friend who has played for four years on his first try.

    its quite embarrassing seeing as he's only 4. He calls Yoshi "The Happy Dinosaur"
     
    TheLegendOfVenusaur likes this.
  34. Shiri

    Shiri
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    Smash Chump

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    ...

    :017: Oh my. o_O

    Oh dear. o_o;
     
  35. ShadDude

    ShadDude
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    Smash Rookie

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    Whoa, a 4-year old winning with Yoshi...now that's something you don't see everyday.

    May I ask who he was facing? The 4-year old
     
  36. AmishTechnology

    AmishTechnology
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    Smash Journeyman

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    Sorry if off topic but...

    Rmusgrave has the same birthdate as me!

    :D

    Nice guide. It's definitely a great collage of sources of Yoshi info put in one, although I knew all of it because I lurked at tons of old topics.
     
  37. Jagged13

    Jagged13
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    Smash Rookie

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    Awesome, Bringer. Just awesome.
     
  38. BETA

    BETA
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    Smash Ace

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    Okay, I've been practicing Edge-Cancelling Eggs. I've got it down decently, the timing. I can't aim them very well yet. It's hard to do, since you get momentum in the direction you throw it in.

    I disapprove of using Corneria to practice. The fin of the ship is a lot different than the sides of Final Destination. I can Edge-Cancel Eggs much easier there. Corneria helps you almost none on Final Destination. I say practice on Final Destination only, because that's where you'll probably use them.

    After I get Edge-Cancelling down, I gotta master L-Cancelling. I can't really practice anything else, since I don't have any smashers in my family.
     
  39. Mic_128

    Mic_128
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    Silent Night

    • Administrator
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    The thing would be that if you practise on Corneria, and you stuff it up, you'll land on the back of the ship. Stuff it up on FD...bye stock.
     
  40. rmusgrave

    rmusgrave
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    BRoomer

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    I understand what you mean beta. Aside from the weird angle you have to throw the eggs at, you also have to adjust to the ship's constant but slight movement. The reason I mentioned Corneria as a good practice place, is simply to get basic timing down before attempting to do it on levels like FD where you die if you screw up.

    I might actually chuck that in my guide now.

    And imo L-cancelling is much more important than any of the other advanced techniques.

    EDIT: It's not in my guide... where did I say Corneria was good for practice? >_>
     

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