How to Fix DDD for the full 3.6 patch.

[Ripple]

So right now, DDD is in a bad spot. He is undeniably one of the worst characters in the game thanks to the nerfs that happened in the beta. Dair nerf was something that was over done with barely any compensation for it. It no longer combos at low %, people get out of it easier, starts up much slower, and if people hold away, we cannot follow up on it.

this tells me a few things. the most important being that the PMDT don't want DDD to be good in the air. His positional advantage was opposite to that of normal characters and they gutted it.

What I don't believe the DT realized was that DDD absolutely sucks on the ground and yet they are forcing a playstyle that isn't good. So with that in mind I've thought about some buffs to his kit for a grounded DDD that is usable AND fun (imo). most of these changes have been tested with the help of Joe!.

1. Jab 1. needs to come out IN FRONT of DDD on frame 6. Its a worthless jab as it stands right now coming out on 8 and not being able to hit someone until 9. upping the speed will actually encourage something that isn't as risky as grab.

2. Jab 1, 2, and Rapid jab and f-tilt become transcendent. The whole reason I adopted the aerial camp game was because clanking with projectiles and moves actually puts DDD in a really bad spot. Since DDD has nothing fast at all on the ground besides d-tilt and grab, both which are both laggy as hell, it essentially let opponents near him for free. With these moves now being unclankable, it will promote trading with moves instead of direct avoidance.

3. Rework D-tilt. D-tilt SUCKS right now, its nearly unusable. It's clearly not an edgeguard move. it doesn't hit below the stage at all and it has terrible knockback, and has tons of end lag. its also clearly not a GTFO move as its too weak. my suggestion

Angle 361 > 30
BKB 20 > 35
KBG 100 > 91
DMG 10 > 9

Frames
1-6 start up
7-11 Strong hitbox
WEAK HITBOX REMOVED (god, it was awful)
12-25 cool down

NOW this move actually has a use and I loved using it. This helps SO much getting people off stage and adds a move that doesn't have a ton of commitment to it.

4. Speed up f-smash

it currently starts on frame 42. 42.... Ike's, who's f-smash does 4 less % and is nearly as strong hits on frame 30, just like bowsers. by buffing the speed of his f-smash you are once again promoting grounded play. not as much but you still are, you could now tech chase platforms with it if extremely lucky. I will absolutely NOT accept a power decrease on this move, like bowser's f-smash

suggestion start up 42 > 36

4.5 up-smash KBG increase. 79 > 84.

I can see why they didn't want it doing so much damage but in that process we lost kill power. even with this buff, it is STILL weaker than fox up-smash. a move 10 frames faster and with less cool down.

5. Spot dodge cool down 32 > 29 AT LEAST.

even by buffing his grounded defensive options, you are still encouraging grounded play. He currently has the worst spot dodge in the game (tied actually). and buffering spot dodge is still too slow to get away from people who just mash grab. that is something unacceptable to me.

6. Rolls invincibility start up 4 > 3. no one's should start on 4. thats so bad.

7. FIX INHALE beyond the glitch

inhale is terrible, the other command grabbers get something great off of it and DDD doesn't. just 10%.

here is inhale right now
1-16 start up
17-19 Big grab box comes out.
20-57 inhale actually comes out and you are forced into this animation for this long
58-77 cool down.

over a FULL SECOND of commitment if you miss, and if you land it you get 10% and nothing more.... the risk vs reward is skewed beyond reason.

reducing the numbers on each of those would actually make this not AS bad

The only real suggestion I have is to at least double the size of the small grab box once inhale is actually out. the reason for this is because inhale basically trades with any move thrown out right now. even with the size doubled, it still trades with shoulder tackle from wario. (which I absolutely don't like)

I also really want to inhale windboxes to be stronger than before. something like a 40/50/60 spread. I Know exactly why this move was nerfed and its one of the stupidest reasons I've ever heard.(but I don't want PMDT "secret" exposed) all I have to say is that if you clearly see that my inhale is out and youre playing falcon AND i'm at the edge of the stage, you should not just run at me and attempt to knee me without expecting the wind to affect you.

8. grounded waddle toss not taking 63 frames to complete. If the intention is to make DDD more grounded then the move taking this long is dumb considering I can just jump and then throw one to make it take so much less time. I feel as though waddle dashing is TOO situational right now because I can't throw stuff on the ground unless its a landing mix up.

9. waddles dee walking slower. I suggested this forever ago, but it would a MUCH better pseudo trap that I can walk up to instead of run up to it. the cool down on grounded + their walk speed basically makes dashing too situational like I said before. if you could make ONLY waddle dees not walk at all, that would be perfect.

10. Revert dair final hit Knockback values. (90 BKB, 50KBG)

The move was murdered in every way. at least fix this part


Overall I think that these changes would be immensely beneficial for DDD players and wouldn't encourage taking to the air to an extreme degree.

 

[Ridel]

Ya know I started thinking the nerfs to Dedede weren't to bad and that people were overreacting. But after a ton of Anther's I can see why people were struggling with Dedede in Beta. The Inhale subject was actually a little eye oening cause I never really though of the pay off but rather "If it's a priority grab it is good" mentality. Wario get's a command grab that he can actually combo out of and it may lack a windbox but Wario's immense air speed basically makes up for it. I'm really starting to get frustrated when playing Dedede but I won't quit Dedede is my boy!

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

will this make the toonlink matchup winnable tho

 

[Ridel]

will this make the toonlink matchup winnable tho

Ehh I'm gunna lean on probably not. Only because Dedede will still always be a fat target and susceptible to zoners.

 

[Ripple]

I would also like a better shield if we don't get the dair buff since our shield is the same as ganon's.

which means Squirtles d-tilt is a guaranteed shield poke after 20 FRAMES. (with no angle)

 

[Rᴏb]

1&2: Agreed, intangible transcendent f-tilt sounds really strong though.

3: I agree that his d-tilt should be made useful. Is there anyway you could post a DL link for testing purposes?

4,5&6: Makes sense.

7: I'm dying to know why inhale has been nerfed into oblivion when it was never even a good move to begin with. The only change I really want is to be able to spit people far enough so that they can't punish me while I'm still in the spit animation.

8&9: I think these are really important. Waddle toss is probably the worst projectile-based move in the game at the moment because of how slow it is and because the reward for getting a waddle out onstage is very insignificant. Making this move faster and making Waddles stand still would help make waddle dashing less situational, help DDD control the stage more, and significantly reduce the need to camp by virtue of waddle dashing becoming more prevalent.

10: PMDT pls

Overall your suggestions are pretty conservative. I really hope they're seriously considered.

 

[Key Chain]

10: PMDT pls

Overall your suggestions are pretty conservative. I really hope they're seriously considered.

This is exactly how I feel about all of this. I got excited the last time Ripple made a post about changes that Dedede should get going into 3.5 AND LITERALLY NONE OF IT CAME TRUE! (literally? is that the correct word? am I literally an idiot?)

Today as I was reading the new suggested changes I began to get the same "Fool me once" twinkle in my eye until I got up to the part about Fixing Inhale. Ripple, you could tell me if im misunderstanding what you said but it seems to me that the PMDT may have at least one childish member who is an embarrassment to the DevTeam and thats putting it nicely. I know I shouldnt jump to conclusions but if I had to, its the only conclusion I can jump to with the info you've decided to give us on the reason for the Inhale nerf. I for one dont find much wrong with Inhale nerfs going from 3.5 to 3.6b and you guys can fill me in on why im wrong if thats an unpopular opinion but just on principal alone, if that stupid Falcon thing has anything to do with the reason it got nerfed, it kinda pisses me off.

Im sorry if that got off point there towards the end or if it was hard to read but I just dont want to be let down again after reading the next changelog and I get kinda defensive when my hopes and dreams can be potentially shot down by one guy saying "Nah, I dont agree with any of these changes." Again, sorry for anything wrong I said and for this post being all over the place. I dont want to waste anyone's time.

 

[Soft Serve]

Where's the shine?

 

[L Pag]

1: I agree with this one. Jab is pretty slow right now, and all of our grounded options are slow right now.

2: I see where you're going with that, but we don't really need that on anything but f tilt and maybe jab 1. Clanking with projectiles doesn't put us in a bad position unless the opponent is using them to approach, and jab 2/jab 3 isn't really gonna stop a lot of approaches. Jab 1 offers a fast option to get rid of projectiles, while f tilt is slower but covers more ground.

3: D tilt is perfectly fine. D tilt does hit slightly under the ledge, and it stops a lot of approaches that miss a sweetspot, which is what it should do. It's a decent tool out of CC since it has a some good range on it too. I will admit a frame or two of added speed couldn't hurt, but for the most part, d tilt is fine.

4: I agree with this one. It's still a risky move thanks to it's small hitbox (the shaft of the hammer doesn't really have much of a hitbox, so the move has range and power, but that's all it has right now), so speeding it up should help Dedede out a lot.

4.5: Up smash is fine the way it is. That comparison you made to Fox was pretty silly tbh, since Fox's works well with his kit and has very little range, as well as a sweetspot. Dedede's may not have a lot of kill power, but it'll still kill a lot of characters at good percents, and the move itself covers a lot of options thanks to the fact that it has a strong hitbox all throughout and covers in front, above, and behind him.

5. I agree with this one, spot dodging gets punished almost any time I've seen it used or used it myself. Even with that buff, it'd still be hard to consider it a good spotdodge.

6. Same thing, roll kinda sucks right now, and it makes it really hard to escape shield pressure right now, even when buffering a roll.

7. Inhale is NOT terrible. This move provides a way to punish shields while in the air, already has a pretty big grab box, can be used for suicide kills, has a windbox, and grab armors through most things. We don't need a way to follow this up since it;s a great tool for getting people off stage and already limits their options. Although, I do feel as though they should make it so you shouldn't be able to jump out of the star until about 3/4 of the distance the star travels, since as of right now, it's completely unsafe to use on hit.

As for the windbox's, I think we should have some better windbox's, but not better than last patch. Last patch the windbox's made this move extremely hard to escape for some characters, and also caused a lot of dumb momentum stiff to happen. I've gotten a lot of kills from just using inhale to try and punish an unsafe an approach and having the windbox carry them through me and off stage too far away for them to recover. That's a situation where I lose a trade, but they just get killed by a windbox anyway.

Speaking of trades, trading with moves is fine, since we technically win. Sure, we take a bit of damage, but grab armor still helps us out a lot. Plus, a lot of characters lack the tools to even punish inhale from in front of Dedede without getting swallowed, and a bigger grab box will just make it so those same characters have difficulty punishing us.

The cooldown could be a bit lower, but considering just how good this move really is (especially since we can b reverse/wavebounce it), it should be easy to punish.

8. I agree with you here. Dedede's ground game is bad enough as it is right now, and our projectile, which is essential to our playstyle, should not take more than a second for it to come out on the ground. I'd say somewhere between 50 and 55 frames would be fine here.

9. I don't really think we need to make Waddles slower, but it wouldn't make too much of a difference, as the current speed and a slower speed both have their advantages. At the speed they walk right now, you can setup waddles for future use further down the stage and sooner than you could if they walked slow. Having waddles stand still is interesting, but I don't really think it'll help all too much compared to now, as waddles are super versatile with their walk speed and can help you escape a lot of bad situations.

10. PMDT PLS

I think the best way to fix Dedede would be to fix dair, make some adjustments to inhale (slightly stronger windboxes, make it safe on hit), make jab 1 and f tilt beat out projectiles, give him a better spotdodge and better rolls, make f smash a bit faster, and adjust side b

As for the side b adjustments, PMDT needs to do more than just make it faster. I think they should really remove gordos, or at least rework them, and increase the chance of waddle doos (assuming gordos are removed). Gordos are pretty dumb right now. They travel at an angle and speed that's still pretty different than waddles, so hitting them at longer range is still near impossible, and it takes away a waddle that could have hit. It's also still risky to waddle dash off screen, since you can't delay the waddle dash if you get a gordo, since the gordo falls at a different speed.

On top of that, if you get hit while throwing a gordo, you'll drop it and it still has a hitbox, so you can still get a huge punish off of making a mistake, and it's pretty poor design to have a move that's safe to punish based on RNG.

 

[Soft Serve]

Trancedent ftilt would be really really scary

which isn't a bad thing, right now its a weak spacing move that is slower than some fsmashes.

 

[Shokio]

1: I agree with this one. Jab is pretty slow right now, and all of our grounded options are slow right now.

2: I see where you're going with that, but we don't really need that on anything but f tilt and maybe jab 1. Clanking with projectiles doesn't put us in a bad position unless the opponent is using them to approach, and jab 2/jab 3 isn't really gonna stop a lot of approaches. Jab 1 offers a fast option to get rid of projectiles, while f tilt is slower but covers more ground.

3: D tilt is perfectly fine. D tilt does hit slightly under the ledge, and it stops a lot of approaches that miss a sweetspot, which is what it should do. It's a decent tool out of CC since it has a some good range on it too. I will admit a frame or two of added speed couldn't hurt, but for the most part, d tilt is fine.

4: I agree with this one. It's still a risky move thanks to it's small hitbox (the shaft of the hammer doesn't really have much of a hitbox, so the move has range and power, but that's all it has right now), so speeding it up should help Dedede out a lot.

4.5: Up smash is fine the way it is. That comparison you made to Fox was pretty silly tbh, since Fox's works well with his kit and has very little range, as well as a sweetspot. Dedede's may not have a lot of kill power, but it'll still kill a lot of characters at good percents, and the move itself covers a lot of options thanks to the fact that it has a strong hitbox all throughout and covers in front, above, and behind him.

5. I agree with this one, spot dodging gets punished almost any time I've seen it used or used it myself. Even with that buff, it'd still be hard to consider it a good spotdodge.

6. Same thing, roll kinda sucks right now, and it makes it really hard to escape shield pressure right now, even when buffering a roll.

7. Inhale is NOT terrible. This move provides a way to punish shields while in the air, already has a pretty big grab box, can be used for suicide kills, has a windbox, and grab armors through most things. We don't need a way to follow this up since it;s a great tool for getting people off stage and already limits their options. Although, I do feel as though they should make it so you shouldn't be able to jump out of the star until about 3/4 of the distance the star travels, since as of right now, it's completely unsafe to use on hit.

As for the windbox's, I think we should have some better windbox's, but not better than last patch. Last patch the windbox's made this move extremely hard to escape for some characters, and also caused a lot of dumb momentum stiff to happen. I've gotten a lot of kills from just using inhale to try and punish an unsafe an approach and having the windbox carry them through me and off stage too far away for them to recover. That's a situation where I lose a trade, but they just get killed by a windbox anyway.

Speaking of trades, trading with moves is fine, since we technically win. Sure, we take a bit of damage, but grab armor still helps us out a lot. Plus, a lot of characters lack the tools to even punish inhale from in front of Dedede without getting swallowed, and a bigger grab box will just make it so those same characters have difficulty punishing us.

The cooldown could be a bit lower, but considering just how good this move really is (especially since we can b reverse/wavebounce it), it should be easy to punish.

8. I agree with you here. Dedede's ground game is bad enough as it is right now, and our projectile, which is essential to our playstyle, should not take more than a second for it to come out on the ground. I'd say somewhere between 50 and 55 frames would be fine here.

9. I don't really think we need to make Waddles slower, but it wouldn't make too much of a difference, as the current speed and a slower speed both have their advantages. At the speed they walk right now, you can setup waddles for future use further down the stage and sooner than you could if they walked slow. Having waddles stand still is interesting, but I don't really think it'll help all too much compared to now, as waddles are super versatile with their walk speed and can help you escape a lot of bad situations.

10. PMDT PLS

I think the best way to fix Dedede would be to fix dair, make some adjustments to inhale (slightly stronger windboxes, make it safe on hit), make jab 1 and f tilt beat out projectiles, give him a better spotdodge and better rolls, make f smash a bit faster, and adjust side b

As for the side b adjustments, PMDT needs to do more than just make it faster. I think they should really remove gordos, or at least rework them, and increase the chance of waddle doos (assuming gordos are removed). Gordos are pretty dumb right now. They travel at an angle and speed that's still pretty different than waddles, so hitting them at longer range is still near impossible, and it takes away a waddle that could have hit. It's also still risky to waddle dash off screen, since you can't delay the waddle dash if you get a gordo, since the gordo falls at a different speed.

On top of that, if you get hit while throwing a gordo, you'll drop it and it still has a hitbox, so you can still get a huge punish off of making a mistake, and it's pretty poor design to have a move that's safe to punish based on RNG.

I'm no expert, but I mostly agree with this.

I don't think DDD is a complicated matter. Honestly I would just revert him back to his 3.5 self, with a few alterations:

1) Slightly improved rolls
2) Slightly improved spot-dodge
3) Faster FSmash
4) Like you said, an Inhale that is in-between the values of 3.5 and 3.6. Felt a bit too strong in 3.5, feels a bit too weak in 3.6.
5) Slightly improved jab

I don't know what exactly to say about the Waddle throw endlag and the Ftilt suggestions. I guess shaving off 4-5 frames of the Waddle throw wouldn't be too big of a deal and the Ftilt suggestion I guess would be more of just a reworking than an actual buff. A move no longer clanking sounds good at first, but then you realize that you have to watch out for projectiles being thrown out there now, so it's a different dynamic. I guess I could say; I don't see why not. If someone can bait out the ftilt coming, they can punish with a projectile.

Don't agree with the dtilt suggestion either. I've seen that move put in work. I also feel that it's endlag should be kinda irrevleant as it's a move that's supposed to be use for edge-guarding. You don't need a move's endlag sped up if you just kicked an off-stage opponent. You have plenty of time to setup you're next move.

But yeah, for the most part, I think reverting him back to last patch and improving his ground game a little would be great.

 

[Ripple]

1: I agree with this one. Jab is pretty slow right now, and all of our grounded options are slow right now.

good

2: I see where you're going with that, but we don't really need that on anything but f tilt and maybe jab 1. Clanking with projectiles doesn't put us in a bad position unless the opponent is using them to approach, and jab 2/jab 3 isn't really gonna stop a lot of approaches. Jab 1 offers a fast option to get rid of projectiles, while f tilt is slower but covers more ground.

making the rest of jab transcendent would make it consistent, it would be weird to suggest the hammer be unclankable during 1 part of the animation and not another.

3: D tilt is perfectly fine. D tilt does hit slightly under the ledge, and it stops a lot of approaches that miss a sweetspot, which is what it should do. It's a decent tool out of CC since it has a some good range on it too. I will admit a frame or two of added speed couldn't hurt, but for the most part, d tilt is fine.

It absolutely is not fine. DDD absolutely needs something with less commitment and d-tilt should be that move. IT LITERALLY DOESN'T HIT beneath the stage. simply checking debug mode proves it. It isn't a good move out of CC because it takes so long and doesn't do anything but 10% like inhale. the weak hit almost doesn't even give stun and needs to be removed entirely.

you know what d-tilt does do? stops bad approaches or punishes people who can't recover. There is a reason I don't use this move at all. There is 0 potential to use this move at the upper levels of play and it actually doing something favorable.

4: I agree with this one. It's still a risky move thanks to it's small hitbox (the shaft of the hammer doesn't really have much of a hitbox, so the move has range and power, but that's all it has right now), so speeding it up should help Dedede out a lot.

good

4.5: Up smash is fine the way it is. That comparison you made to Fox was pretty silly tbh, since Fox's works well with his kit and has very little range, as well as a sweetspot. Dedede's may not have a lot of kill power, but it'll still kill a lot of characters at good percents, and the move itself covers a lot of options thanks to the fact that it has a strong hitbox all throughout and covers in front, above, and behind him.

Up-smash is no doubt underpowered in the update.

That comparison you made to Fox was pretty silly tbh,Fox's works well with his kit and has very little range, as well as a sweetspot

This is Bull**** right here. Why does it matter if our up-smash works well with our kit? it looks powerful and isn't. I don't care if they add a sour spot behind him to balance it out. the strong hit needs to be stronger. and Fox lands up-smash in WAY more situations than us landing it. what does it matter if it has less range when people can connect it so easily and we can't

5. I agree with this one, spot dodging gets punished almost any time I've seen it used or used it myself. Even with that buff, it'd still be hard to consider it a good spotdodge.

good

6. Same thing, roll kinda sucks right now, and it makes it really hard to escape shield pressure right now, even when buffering a roll.

7. Inhale is NOT terrible

this is a ****ing joke.

This move provides a way to punish shields while in the air

Jump dair used to do this also but now it barely does.

, already has a pretty big grab box,

that takes 16 frames to come out and is forced out for 57

can be used for suicide kills,

NO IT CAN'T. not in any meaningful way. I'm so sick of people saying this. People watch Heysuess and Mach walk to the ledge jump away 2x and then on their 3rd jump turn around and inhale to try and take someone with them. ITS SO BAD. This tactic never works on actually skilled opponents. people blatently don't know the MU if they are running after DDD offstage.

has a windbox,

I wouldn't even consider this a positive aspect right now

and grab armors through most things.

if people see us using this move then they can purposefully throw out smash attacks and then trade with us because they knowingly will take 10% and just reset positioning. I'm fine with grab armor w/e but people shouldn't be able to do this.

We don't need a way to follow this up since it;s a great tool for getting people off stage and already limits their options.

I'm not saying we need a follow up, but we deserve more than 10%.

Although, I do feel as though they should make it so you shouldn't be able to jump out of the star until about 3/4 of the distance the star travels, since as of right now, it's completely unsafe to use on hit.

PMDT has known about this glitch since February of last year. them not fixing it is a joke.

As for the windbox's, I think we should have some better windbox's, but not better than last patch. Last patch the windbox's made this move extremely hard to escape for some characters,

it literally could be escaped be anyone who could run as fast as squirtle or faster. and squirtle has a very slow run speed of 1.35.

and also caused a lot of dumb momentum stiff to happen. I've gotten a lot of kills from just using inhale to try and punish an unsafe an approach and having the windbox carry them through me and off stage too far away for them to recover.

That's why you don't ****ing run and jump at DDD when inhale is out. It literally has the easiest counterplay in the world of "run away". if you don't run toward DDD, bad things don't happen. the fact that they nerfed inhale simply because people didn't understand this goes beyond comprehension.

The cooldown could be a bit lower, but considering just how good this move really is (especially since we can b reverse/wavebounce it), it should be easy to punish.

not THIS easy.

8. I agree with you here. Dedede's ground game is bad enough as it is right now, and our projectile, which is essential to our playstyle, should not take more than a second for it to come out on the ground. I'd say somewhere between 50 and 55 frames would be fine here.

fine

9. I don't really think we need to make Waddles slower, but it wouldn't make too much of a difference, as the current speed and a slower speed both have their advantages. At the speed they walk right now, you can setup waddles for future use further down the stage and sooner than you could if they walked slow. Having waddles stand still is interesting, but I don't really think it'll help all too much compared to now, as waddles are super versatile with their walk speed and can help you escape a lot of bad situations.

This is the exact same thing Fly amanita said when he was in charge of DDD. except he wanted waddles to walk even faster.

any situation that waddles could set up by walking could be set up yourself by Wdashing and placing a waddle in the correct spot. Waddles are too fast to actually give me any control of what I want to trap onstage.

Gordos are pretty dumb right now. They travel at an angle and speed that's still pretty different than waddles, so hitting them at longer range is still near impossible.

its only different when throw for excessively long time. and not different at all before that. you've spouted a lot misinformation that I don't think you actually know anything about DDD

4) Like you said, an Inhale that is in-between the values of 3.5 and 3.6. Felt a bit too strong in 3.5, feels a bit too weak in 3.6.

see above as to how that basically isn't true

Don't agree with the dtilt suggestion either. I've seen that move put in work.

no you haven't. or if you have, its against bad people.

I also feel that it's endlag should be kinda irrelevant as it's a move that's supposed to be use for edge-guarding.

its not meant for edgeguarding since it doesn't kill and it barely gives you enough time to do anything with the opponent. if you hit withe first frame the move is out, it has 28 frames of cool down. Marth's d-tilt, which actually hits below the stage and comes out 1 frame faster and has more knockback, has only 14 frames.

You don't need a move's endlag sped up if you just kicked an off-stage opponent. You have plenty of time to setup you're next move.

you don't have time. DDD's options are slow. youre not thinking about what can DDD do after 28 frames of lag. his fastest to actually do anything would be f-tilt at another 11 frames.

 

[Juushichi]

ripple, i am asking this less as developer guy and more as devil's advocate guy, but:

what honestly stops you from playing the air game even if you get this grounded stuff?

with the ground game, if you get a lead what stops you from laming out characters who can't really interact with you at that point?

with these things in mind, if they are important, how do you feel these changes holistically affect the cast (and not just DDD's ability within it)?

 

[Manaconda]

6. Rolls invincibility start up 4 > 3. no one's should start on 4. thats so bad.

I can't check right now but doesn't the whole cast start their roll invincibility on frame 4? I can't find any data for all PM characters, but all Melee characters start their rolls with frame 4 invincibility. Very little changed in Brawl (3 characters actually have particular rolls that begin on frame 5).

 

[Ripple]

ripple, i am asking this less as developer guy and more as devil's advocate guy, but:

what honestly stops you from playing the air game even if you get this grounded stuff?

with the ground game, if you get a lead what stops you from laming out characters who can't really interact with you at that point?

with these things in mind, if they are important, how do you feel these changes holistically affect the cast (and not just DDD's ability within it)?

nothing really stops you from laming someone out. However, the dair nerf HEAVILY discouraged being in the air and doing anything. also buffing the ground options would give people the belief (hopefully true) that people will have a better chance at winning trying to actually go in and beat someone rather than just camping and ticking away the timer or %.

holistically I think the the transcendent f-tilt is the best change and a fantastic way to promote aggression throughout the whole cast against DDD. people will be discouraged to lame out DDD with projectiles and I will be encouraged to throw it out against them to trade. people will then be promoted to play footsies outside my range and it'll be like fighting against marth. baiting out bad timings.
The jab and d-tilt allow him to actually play this game with the cast now without being over powered and DDD is no longer grab the character.

I can't check right now but doesn't the whole cast start their roll invincibility on frame 4? I can't find any data for all PM characters, but all Melee characters start their rolls with frame 4 invincibility. Very little changed in Brawl (3 characters actually have particular rolls that begin on frame 5).

I will check on this but I distrust anything put on the wiki. I thought most melee characters rolls came out on 2 or 3

 

[L Pag]

making the rest of jab transcendent would make it consistent, it would be weird to suggest the hammer be unclankable during 1 part of the animation and not another.

I'm going to remain neutral on this one, as I'm indifferent here. On one hand, like you said, it would remain consistent, but at the same time, making a move unclankable buffs a move a lot, so I don't know if I would give it to all 3 hits of his jab (especially not the third hit/spin).

It absolutely is not fine. DDD absolutely needs something with less commitment and d-tilt should be that move. IT LITERALLY DOESN'T HIT beneath the stage. simply checking debug mode proves it. It isn't a good move out of CC because it takes so long and doesn't do anything but 10% like inhale. the weak hit almost doesn't even give stun and needs to be removed entirely.

you know what d-tilt does do? stops bad approaches or punishes people who can't recover. There is a reason I don't use this move at all. There is 0 potential to use this move at the upper levels of play and it actually doing something favorable.

I'll say it again: D tilt is fine. It's a move that punishes people who don't sweet spot the ledge, as well as poor recovery choices, and at most percents, will knock someone away far enough for you to follow up with an offstage guard, grab ledge, throw a waddle, set up for another d tilt, etc... And this is how a move like this SHOULD work with edge guarding.

This is a quote taken from the Project M website:

"Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding."

D tilt adheres to the Project M's design philosophy perfectly: it's not too risky to use as an edge guard, but not as rewarding as going off stage. Oh, and it does actually go slightly below the stage

As for the commitment issue, I see where you're coming from, and a shaving a few frames off the endlag couldn't hurt.

This is Bull**** right here. Why does it matter if our up-smash works well with our kit? it looks powerful and isn't. I don't care if they add a sour spot behind him to balance it out. the strong hit needs to be stronger. and Fox lands up-smash in WAY more situations than us landing it. what does it matter if it has less range when people can connect it so easily and we can't

That's a really poor way of thinking about game design. The move is strong as it is right now, at least strong enough to adhere to the animation, but buffing a move because you don't think it looks stronger than it actually is? That's just silly. And you compared Dedede to Fox again: Dedede's up smash is meant for option coverage and hitting people when they're trying to come down on top of you. Fox's up smash is a kill move that is meant to punish mistakes in neutral or end combos. They're completely different, and balancing them based on each other will not help the game at all.

Also, if you add a sourspot on the move, that'll completely change it's design. As I said, it's designed for option coverage: it can cover anything that goes behind, in front, or above you, and that alone is a very strong tool that a lot of characters don't have, and adding a sourspot and a sweetspot to that would be nerfing it, if anything.

this is a ****ing joke.

Jump dair used to do this also but now it barely does.

Did it really? The way I see it, if you jump dair'd on someone's shield, you were putting yourself at a disadvantage. Dair still has landing lag, so even if you don't land, it's punishable, and if you did land, you had landing lag, and you're put in a similar situation as to what I just mentioned, where you can easily be punished. Sure, there were ways to make it safe on shield, but we've always had swallow, which is pretty much always safe on shield, since it's a grab.

that takes 16 frames to come out and is forced out for 57

So? The move should be slow. It's got a bigger grab box than most command grabs, as well as the windbox, and you can keep it out for as long as you want. Even then, most command grabs come out fairly slow, the exception being Wario, and he can't even b reverse his. Command grabs are a fantastic tool, and they have to be balanced somehow.

NO IT CAN'T. not in any meaningful way. I'm so sick of people saying this. People watch Heysuess and Mach walk to the ledge jump away 2x and then on their 3rd jump turn around and inhale to try and take someone with them. ITS SO BAD. This tactic never works on actually skilled opponents. people blatently don't know the MU if they are running after DDD offstage.

I see what you mean with what you said about it not being able to work in a meaningful way in most situations. Dedede's walk with someone inhaled is pretty slow, and mashing slows it down even more. But, the bottom line here is that it still can be used as one. It's not the best option, but it IS still an option, and you're denying that fact.

As for it not working on people who don't know the MU/skilled players in general, you sure about that one? I'd like to bring up a scenario here: Let's say Fox is off stage, and I know he's going to recover above the ledge with side b. I can jump up and fair, but at his current percent, he'll live and be able to recover with an up b, which provides him with a few mixups as to which angle he'll chose to up b. So, say I have a stock lead, or we're both on our last stock. I'm not confident in reading the up b angle that he'll be able to do if I fair him, so instead, I jump forward and swallow him as he side b's into me, and I get a swallowcide.

In this scenario, the skill of the Fox player doesn't matter. He's simply trying to mixup his recovery by recovering high, an option that has it's up's and down's, but I read it. And again, it's not my best option here, but it gave me assurance: Now I don't have to worry about reading the up b angle.

I wouldn't even consider this a positive aspect right now

Why not? Even if it may not be as good as it used to be, we still have a windbox that drags people into our grab box. Not matter how you look at that, it's a huge benefit.

if people see us using this move then they can purposefully throw out smash attacks and then trade with us because they knowingly will take 10% and just reset positioning. I'm fine with grab armor w/e but people shouldn't be able to do this.

If someone has the time to throw out a smash attack, I guarantee they have a better option than that. Plus, you have to think about the situations in which you would use swallow. It's a command grab. It's not supposed to be safe unless it's on someone's shield, and the fact that we can already power through a lot of stuff with grab armor makes it safe in a few more situations, which is a plus, if anything.

I'm not saying we need a follow up, but we deserve more than 10%.

We already have something besides the 10%. Neutral b get's the opponent off stage, and sets up for an edge guard, which is what Dedede is fundamentally designed to do. Granted, this isn't guaranteed since you can jump out of the star pretty early, but like I said, that's one of the things the PMDT should be adjusting next patch.

it literally could be escaped be anyone who could run as fast as squirtle or faster. and squirtle has a very slow run speed of 1.35.

Again, I'd like to bring up what I said before about command grabs. They should only be safe on shield, and you can't usually run away from Dedede's windbox if you're in shield, and even then, there are still a lot of characters slower than Squirtle.

That's why you don't ****ing run and jump at DDD when inhale is out. It literally has the easiest counterplay in the world of "run away". if you don't run toward DDD, bad things don't happen. the fact that they nerfed inhale simply because people didn't understand this goes beyond comprehension.

I don't feel the need to repeat myself here. It shouldn't really be safe unless it's on shield. Also, to clarify, I'm not trying to say this move shouldn't be useful unless on shield, it just shouldn't really be too safe unless it is on shield. There should still be plenty of situations, like swallowciding as an edge guard or using it to abuse grab armor, but it shouldn't really be your best option there. In order to balance this, it should yield more reward, and I think what I said before about not being able to immediately jump out of the star already covers that.

any situation that waddles could set up by walking could be set up yourself by Wdashing and placing a waddle in the correct spot. Waddles are too fast to actually give me any control of what I want to trap onstage.

Assuming they stand still or walk slower, you absolutely could set them up with waddle dashing, but doing that takes more time/commitment then throwing a waddle and waiting for it to go where it needs to go while you have free movement. Granted, if they walked slower, you could set them up in the same way you can now, it would just take longer (which isn't necessarily good or bad). Their walking speed basically depends on personal preference, so there's not much of a reason to change it.

its only different when throw for excessively long time. and not different at all before that. you've spouted a lot misinformation that I don't think you actually know anything about DDD

It seems you only quoted the first part of that statement:

They travel at an angle and speed that's still pretty different than waddles, so hitting them at longer range is still near impossible, and it takes away a waddle that could have hit.

I figured that mentioning the part about hitting them at longer range implied that I meant the angle differs at longer range, but I guess I still wasn't clear enough. I'll count that as my bad there.

Anyway, I stand by what I said before. Fixing Dedede would revolve around better defensive options (rolls/spot dodge), buffing dair, stronger windboxes on neutral b and making it safe on hit, making jab 1 and f tilt unclankable, making f smash a tad faster, and adjusting side b.

 

[Ridel]

So many walls of text I have to read. Damn this thread really rustled some jimmies.

 

[Smur]

inb4 3.6 rolls out with more DDD nerfs

 

[Key Chain]

inb4 3.6 rolls out with more DDD nerfs

This is my recurring nightmare. something just tells me the ”fix” is in...

 

[kinje]

I'm going to remain neutral on this one, as I'm indifferent here. On one hand, like you said, it would remain consistent, but at the same time, making a move unclankable buffs a move a lot, so I don't know if I would give it to all 3 hits of his jab (especially not the third hit/spin).

@ Ripple I agree with @ L Pag on this one. Making all three (not just the first one) unclankable seems unnecessary to buff it and make it useful in the ways it should be. I'd advocate just making the first jab fast enough to be useful in similar ways to other characters' jabs and making just that one unclankable, as second jab and beyond being unclankable doesn't matter as much if we can compete with other characters with our first jab, since most of second jab's use (as far as I'm aware) is to catch people acting OOS after our first jab hits their shield, to combo a second hit off of the successful first jab and cancel into a grab (or smash/rocket hammer if they start SDIing out of the second hit or spotdodging instead of shielding after getting hit), or to just throw out another "get away" hitbox less commital than f-tilt in neutral.

I'll say it again: D tilt is fine. It's a move that punishes people who don't sweet spot the ledge, as well as poor recovery choices, and at most percents, will knock someone away far enough for you to follow up with an offstage guard, grab ledge, throw a waddle, set up for another d tilt, etc... And this is how a move like this SHOULD work with edge guarding.

This is a quote taken from the Project M website:

"Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding."

D tilt adheres to the Project M's design philosophy perfectly: it's not too risky to use as an edge guard, but not as rewarding as going off stage. Oh, and it does actually go slightly below the stage

As for the commitment issue, I see where you're coming from, and a shaving a few frames off the endlag couldn't hurt.

There are still a number of problems with that statement: a) it's not really safe enough to actually merit its use over more rewarding options (down-b, the back of d-smash, fair, and potentially jab 1) if you call that they aren't sweetspotting the ledge, b) it doesn't hit low enough below the stage that it can stop most characters who actually have a sweetspottable recovery, and c) against a number of characters, d-tilt right at the ledge is easily punishable by an opponent who successfully sweetspots the ledge right before, right after, or during the below-stage hitbox, while a quick whiffed run-off aerial offstage against an opponent who successfully sweetspots can be difficult and sometimes require a straight read to punish afterwards.

That's a really poor way of thinking about game design. The move is strong as it is right now, at least strong enough to adhere to the animation, but buffing a move because you don't think it looks stronger than it actually is? That's just silly. And you compared Dedede to Fox again: Dedede's up smash is meant for option coverage and hitting people when they're trying to come down on top of you. Fox's up smash is a kill move that is meant to punish mistakes in neutral or end combos. They're completely different, and balancing them based on each other will not help the game at all.

Also, if you add a sourspot on the move, that'll completely change it's design. As I said, it's designed for option coverage: it can cover anything that goes behind, in front, or above you, and that alone is a very strong tool that a lot of characters don't have, and adding a sourspot and a sweetspot to that would be nerfing it, if anything.

This is a good point, but his suggestion is reasonable as well, if we grant that the way it works right now isn't good or particularly useful to a high-level competitive player, and that future moveset designs don't need to interpret every move's use the same way as in previous versions of the moveset.

Did it really? The way I see it, if you jump dair'd on someone's shield, you were putting yourself at a disadvantage. Dair still has landing lag, so even if you don't land, it's punishable, and if you did land, you had landing lag, and you're put in a similar situation as to what I just mentioned, where you can easily be punished. Sure, there were ways to make it safe on shield, but we've always had swallow, which is pretty much always safe on shield, since it's a grab.

I don't really know what you mean by "Dair still has landing lag, so even if you don't land, it's punishable", or agree with your assertion that falling on their shield with dair always put us in a bad position, but the big thing is that now, depending on percent, falling l-canceled dair is even punishable on hit with good DI/SDI, and that's not good. Plus, they only ever have to worry about shielding our falling aerials if they actually put us in a good position after landing them, so, without other strong landing tools that we can reliably convert off of or escape after using, they never have to really respect our options by shielding, rolling or spot-dodging early and put themselves in a situation where they risk being caught by our falling swallow mixups.

So? The move should be slow. It's got a bigger grab box than most command grabs, as well as the windbox, and you can keep it out for as long as you want. Even then, most command grabs come out fairly slow, the exception being Wario, and he can't even b reverse his. Command grabs are a fantastic tool, and they have to be balanced somehow.

Even if Wario can't alter his falling momentum with a b-reversed bite, he still has crazy aerial mobility and can weave about as far as our momentum change from a b-reverse, and it's still the command grab that has the most similar use to ours outside of kirby's. They are supposed to be slow and do need to be balanced more carefully than other moves, but dedede's swallow starts up a little slower than most other command grabs and has about a 1/4-second more endlag than Ganon's and Bowser's side specials do.

I see what you mean with what you said about it not being able to work in a meaningful way in most situations. Dedede's walk with someone inhaled is pretty slow, and mashing slows it down even more. But, the bottom line here is that it still can be used as one. It's not the best option, but it IS still an option, and you're denying that fact.

As for it not working on people who don't know the MU/skilled players in general, you sure about that one? I'd like to bring up a scenario here: Let's say Fox is off stage, and I know he's going to recover above the ledge with side b. I can jump up and fair, but at his current percent, he'll live and be able to recover with an up b, which provides him with a few mixups as to which angle he'll chose to up b. So, say I have a stock lead, or we're both on our last stock. I'm not confident in reading the up b angle that he'll be able to do if I fair him, so instead, I jump forward and swallow him as he side b's into me, and I get a swallowcide.

In this scenario, the skill of the Fox player doesn't matter. He's simply trying to mixup his recovery by recovering high, an option that has it's up's and down's, but I read it. And again, it's not my best option here, but it gave me assurance: Now I don't have to worry about reading the up b angle.

That's a scenario that involves you reading your opponent and having stage position with them offstage at a percent where they can't break out in time to recover, WITH A STOCK LEAD. That doesn't happen much at the top level when players are at roughly the same ability, and when it does, that Dedede better have the confidence and knowledge to go for something better than swallow, and that Fox should know that Dedede can cover the high side-b and get a free stock from swallow, so they should go for a less risky option than side-b, especially if they're at a percent where they'll survive a fair offstage without having to rely on only a select few possible up-b angles.

Why not? Even if it may not be as good as it used to be, we still have a windbox that drags people into our grab box. Not matter how you look at that, it's a huge benefit.

Yeah, it's a benefit. Not a huge one, though.

If someone has the time to throw out a smash attack, I guarantee they have a better option than that. Plus, you have to think about the situations in which you would use swallow. It's a command grab. It's not supposed to be safe unless it's on someone's shield, and the fact that we can already power through a lot of stuff with grab armor makes it safe in a few more situations, which is a plus, if anything.

He was using it as illustrative of the move's inability to effectively do what it's supposed to do, swallow the person in front of you if they come close enough and aren't smart enough to just roll behind you and punish the incredible end lag of the move.

We already have something besides the 10%. Neutral b get's the opponent off stage, and sets up for an edge guard, which is what Dedede is fundamentally designed to do. Granted, this isn't guaranteed since you can jump out of the star pretty early, but like I said, that's one of the things the PMDT should be adjusting next patch.

Again, I'd like to bring up what I said before about command grabs. They should only be safe on shield, and you can't usually run away from Dedede's windbox if you're in shield, and even then, there are still a lot of characters slower than Squirtle.

Yeah, and all of those characters have the ability to either jump over and come down or from behind with an aerial or roll past/through the windbox. The point is, if you're gonna have the windbox at all, it should be something that characters should have to respect. The strong windbox is part of the reason the move's huge startup and endlag were more or less justified in the last patch, so leaving it just as slow and punishable while making it weaker unbalances the move and makes it bad. If it weren't for the windbox making it cover a bad roll or a spot dodge out of an early shield when you were coming down, all it is is a move that covers one defensive option and has the potential to do a little damage and gain stage position. In other words, the world's laggiest tomahawk, with one bad throw afterward.

I don't feel the need to repeat myself here. It shouldn't really be safe unless it's on shield. Also, to clarify, I'm not trying to say this move shouldn't be useful unless on shield, it just shouldn't really be too safe unless it is on shield. There should still be plenty of situations, like swallowciding as an edge guard or using it to abuse grab armor, but it shouldn't really be your best option there. In order to balance this, it should yield more reward, and I think what I said before about not being able to immediately jump out of the star already covers that.

I'm pretty sure all @ Ripple wants is for it to not be as laggy for how little it does when you land it or for it to be fixed to give us more out of a more than one second-long move than 10% and stage position if they don't break out of the star.
As it is right now, there are plenty of characters who are at no noticeable disadvantage position-wise after being spat out unless you get the swallow right next to the ledge and spit them offstage.

Assuming they stand still or walk slower, you absolutely could set them up with waddle dashing, but doing that takes more time/commitment then throwing a waddle and waiting for it to go where it needs to go while you have free movement. Granted, if they walked slower, you could set them up in the same way you can now, it would just take longer (which isn't necessarily good or bad). Their walking speed basically depends on personal preference, so there's not much of a reason to change it.

The problem with this reasoning is that, as it is now, if you want to throw them out so that they'll be where you want them a few seconds later, you have to throw them short of where you want them to be and then wait for them to get there, in which time they could have been hit as they crossed to that place or jumped/stopped and shot their beam, ruining your set-up/placement. They also only stay on standard platforms for a very small window of time.
If they walked more slowly, however, we wouldn't have to throw them short and then wait; instead, we could just put them approximately where we want them with the initial throw, and then use them almost exactly when we want to, instead of just before they walk past where we wanted them or get hit away from where we wanted them. It would definitely make them more useful now than before.

Now, personally, the only change I think they need is a reduction of lag on the grounded throw, so that we don't have to take to the air every time we want to use them against a reasonably fast character. As they are right now, when throw from the air, they're useful but not great, and I'm fine with that, since any speed change which made them better would make me have to re-learn the speeds and how I place them.

It seems you only quoted the first part of that statement:

I figured that mentioning the part about hitting them at longer range implied that I meant the angle differs at longer range, but I guess I still wasn't clear enough. I'll count that as my bad there.

Anyway, I stand by what I said before. Fixing Dedede would revolve around better defensive options (rolls/spot dodge), buffing dair, stronger windboxes on neutral b and making it safe on hit, making jab 1 and f tilt unclankable, making f smash a tad faster, and adjusting side b.

Yeah, I think we're all at least partially in agreement on those, although I'm still not sold on how important f-smash changes would be. I feel like down- and up-smash do the same job it would do if it were faster (other than covering characters recoveries by air-dodge upon read), because speeding it up to a speed that it's more usable would necessitate a nerf in either range or power to balance it out in the end.
I'd also personally like a slight reduction in jump-squat to make our OOS options other than grab and roll a little less abysmal and more shield damage on our meatier moves across the board à la bowser (potentially making f-smash and down-b more useful as shield-breakers instead of mainly hard-read/hypno-smash moves)

 

[Ridel]

Well 3.6's final patch dropped today and Dedede's D-Air got more changes. It looks to be buffed having a better IASA and more KB growth. it also lost two of it's six hitboxes making it shorter this is obviously a bad thing though the other buffs may compensate but it's not looking good as of now. Well at least Inhale got buffed, it's now 4X harder to break out of star. I'm actually a little disappointed that we didn't get the changes we needed. Bowser did because there was so much outcry for it, but since Dedede has a much smaller player base we didn't gain the traction like Bowser. I could be wrong of course but that's just how it feels.

 

[Phubs]

The dair nerf wasn't actually too bad, because as @ Ripple pointed out you can auto cancel SH->dair now

 

[RandomLax]

Well 3.6's final patch dropped today and Dedede's D-Air got more changes. It looks to be buffed having a better IASA and more KB growth. it also lost two of it's six hitboxes making it shorter this is obviously a bad thing though the other buffs may compensate but it's not looking good as of now. Well at least Inhale got buffed, it's now 4X harder to break out of star. I'm actually a little disappointed that we didn't get the changes we needed. Bowser did because there was so much outcry for it, but since Dedede has a much smaller player base we didn't gain the traction like Bowser. I could be wrong of course but that's just how it feels.

This.
Dedede got nerfed and redesigned for no reason. Dedede got nerfed and redesigned for no reason. If he was "too strong" there would be much more representation, popularity, and consistency when Dedede's are seen playing. However there isn't, why? Dedede keeps going from bad to worse. Who would want to play a ground based floaty? Its entirely counterproductive to his skillset. I just don't understand the reasoning for these nerfs, when Ripple had very valid suggestions to make D3 more viable...

 

[Key Chain]

im done caring. im just going to keep playing him until they nerf him into a character I dont enjoy playing. For me, personally, it'll take a lot to make that happen but if it does happen i'll just wipe my tears and play Melee seriously until they buff him back.

I hope that never happens though. So far Dedede in PM has been a dream come true and I have no intentions of dropping him or the game in the near or distant future.

 

[kinje]

Dair's basically a new move. It's at least a useful move now that it combos and ACs and can be used while remaining in the air to a more useful degree, but it's not the same move as it once was, so I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.
At least they kind of fixed the star.

 

[Phubs]

At least they kind of fixed the star.

Spit->fair has potential now, but its only guaranteed if you believe

 

[Smur]

im done caring. im just going to keep playing him until they nerf him into a character I dont enjoy playing. For me, personally, it'll take a lot to make that happen but if it does happen i'll just wipe my tears and play Melee seriously until they buff him back.

I hope that never happens though. So far Dedede in PM has been a dream come true and I have no intentions of dropping him or the game in the near or distant future.

Same here mang. I've come to realize my character can only take me so far, so I'm done with entering any more singles tournaments. That said, he's still fun as ****. Besides, doubles and the occasional money match are still on the table

 

[kinje]

He's still totally doable in singles as long as you don't run into PR members until finals.
In other words, as long as you don't play anyone who's as good or better than you.

 

[Smur]

Oh, I know he's still viable-ish. I got second place at the last two tournaments I went to. Me quitting singles probably has more to do with me as a person

 

[Key Chain]

He's still totally doable in singles as long as you don't run into PR members until finals.
In other words, as long as you don't play anyone who's as good or better than you.

idk man. I think thats a bad mentality to have but I guess it kinda depends on how much you love the character and what you plan to do with the character success wise. I'm trying to improve both as a player and as a Dedede so I think it'll be wrong to adapt that type of mentality of just accepting Dedede as a character we cant win serious matches with. but thats just how I see it.

Oh, I know he's still viable-ish. I got second place at the last two tournaments I went to. Me quitting singles probably has more to do with me as a person

lol I guess im sorta glad to hear this for my own personal reasons. I'm ”Monk3yCha0s” on Twitchtv and reddit A.K.A one of your biggest/most annoying fans. it made me sad to hear you might be using him less but im glad to hear about your success at the previous two tourneys and I hope you do well at your future events with whoever you decide to play! (Smash in the Boro, this wednesday on EagleSmash right?)

 

[Smur]

Aww man, I feel a little guilty now lol @ Key Chain

If I do end up going to SiTB, I'll REP THE DDD

 

[sneakytako]

dtilt is actually pretty good, it's way more useful than jab imo.

You should probably use dtilt instead of jab, it pretty much does what you're asking jab to do.

 

[G13_Flux]

dtilt is actually pretty good, it's way more useful than jab imo.

You should probably use dtilt instead of jab, it pretty much does what you're asking jab to do.

but you might as well just use grab instead of dtilt. it has less cooldown, the startup is the same, and its not CCable. dtilt has its uses in CCing and sometimes just getting your opponent offstage, but its still got a lot of cooldown compared to other moves of similar nature/function.

 

[sneakytako]

Idk, i can't argue that grab > dtilt, but sometimes you just need a lingering hitbox that is pretty non-committal, like punishing a landing where you know dtilt can outspace most of their aerials. Like against a shiek trying to land on stage from the edge, dtilt is pretty good at beating higher fairs, or at least trading with low fairs (which if you hit them without them landing, that's generally a dead shiek)

 

[Psychostoner]

Yo dev's

d3 is a HUGE target. the entire cast gets free hits on him.

Dont change anything and just make d3 smaller. weapon still stays same.

Perfect.