How to Edgeguard Pikachu

Sycorax

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#1
I have had opinions about this for a long time, and I finally did the research to figure this out. Marths traditionally have had a lot of trouble against Pikachu, and one of the reasons for this is that they do not know how to edgeguard Pikachu. Marth should not struggle that hard to edgeguard Pikachu. He has strong options to make Pikachu's life hell.

What to do:
You can cover every up-b angle to the ledge with dtilt. If Marth teeters on the edge and dtilts, it covers every angle Pikachu can approach the ledge from. It covers the high angles as well as Pikachu's lowest sweetspot angle (in this picture, Pikachu will grab the ledge on the next frame). For the record, Axe tends to angle his up-bs higher than this. Furthermore, you can react to Pikachu's up-b with your dtilt. On the first frame of Pikachu's up-b, little white clouds appear below him. The reaction window is about 2 frames easier than reacting to tech in place with grab. This only works if Pikachu will travel the second leg of his up-b. If he only travels the first, you cannot react with dtilt.

In this way, you can cover all of Pikachu's attempts to grab the ledge. If Pikachu tries to up-b onto the stage, you can cover those options easily too. If he hits you with his up-b, there is so litle hitstun that you can instantly punish him. If he lands on a side platform, he has 24 frames of landing lag, plus hang-time at the end of his up-b. This is enough time to hit him with a uair, utilt, fair, or fsmash depending on the spacing.

Marth has other options as well. Forward smash will also cover all of Pikachu's angles to the ledge, but you cannot use it on reaction. Often, Pikachu will up-b at a predictable time making forward smash easier to hit. You can see PPMD make a lot of good use of this in his set versus Axe at Smash Summit 1 until Axe starts mixing up his up-b timings to make PPMD miss. You can also see PPMD use dair to cover Axe's initially predictable up-bs.

Another thing to note about Pikachu's up-b is that his hurtbox expands massively for 1 frame at the midpoint of his up-b. You can see MacD abuse this fact in this image. MacD probably could have been farther away honestly. And then Marth's fsmash reaches WAY farther than Peach's bair. When teetering on the edge, you can often hit Pikchu in the midpoint of his up-b with an fsmash or jump off and dair. PPMD does both of these in his set versus Axe.

What not to do:
With this knowledge, I hope that the Pikachu matchup can be easier for Marth mains. Effective edgeguarding techniques will also improve the effectiveness of uthrow juggles. Marth has a guaranteed uthrow->uair on Pikachu that leads into a strong juggle. However, this is often cut short by Pikachu DIing offstage and recovering for free against clueless Marths. With better edgeguarding, DIing offstage may not be as appealing an option.
 

Scaremonger

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#2
If Pikachu is below the ledge, you actually can cover every option on reaction with fsmash. ARC originally told me about this ~6 months ago, and I tested it with him pretty extensively. In this setup, you can actually cover both single and double-legged up-b with the same timing.
 

V_D_X

Smash Cadet
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#3
If Pikachu is below the ledge, you actually can cover every option on reaction with fsmash. ARC originally told me about this ~6 months ago, and I tested it with him pretty extensively. In this setup, you can actually cover both single and double-legged up-b with the same timing.
Can you describe the setup/timing of the fsmash?
 
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Sycorax

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#6
You teeter at the ledge, and if Pika is coming from below, you fsmash as soon as you hear the sound of his up-b. Just hit the c-stick as soon as you hear it, it covers every possible angle with the same timing.
I don't believe that. The frames just aren't there. I'm pretty sure it's a soft read. But I might be wrong.
 

TheBSKR

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#12
Pikachu has a great recovery in my opinion, so I would not advise challenging it if you are not certain that you can 1. kill Pikachu and 2. Get back to the stage
What I try is setting up Pikachu to be above the stage, so It is extremely easy to edgeguard . But if Pikachu is below the stage you can try: 1. Dash off double jump (if you are too low) up b to stage spike 2. Letting him back on stage up tilt into reverse ken combo 3. If Pikachu lands above you on fd or fod wavedash back fsmash.
 

DCW

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#13
Thank you Sycorax Sycorax !

Pikachu has a great recovery in my opinion, so I would not advise challenging it if you are not certain that you can 1. kill Pikachu and 2. Get back to the stage
What I try is setting up Pikachu to be above the stage, so It is extremely easy to edgeguard . But if Pikachu is below the stage you can try: 1. Dash off double jump (if you are too low) up b to stage spike 2. Letting him back on stage up tilt into reverse ken combo 3. If Pikachu lands above you on fd or fod wavedash back fsmash.
I think the OP's method is better than the ones mentioned here. It covers more options at less risk to the Marth. Specifically, (#1) dash off up-B to stage spike requires a read for when they will up-B. It can miss, be interrupted by Pikachu's up-B, or wall-teched by the Pikachu. Any of these could lead to death for you. (#2) Waiting to uptilt a recovery to the stage requires a read that they will go for stage instead of ledge, so they can get to the ledge for free. (#3) likewise only covers recovery to stage, leaving the ledge uncovered. Compare these three methods with the OP's method, which covers recoveries to both ledge and stage in a guaranteed way that keeps the Marth totally safe.
 

TheBSKR

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#14
DCW You make a valid point, but those are as you said options, and from a Marth UNEXPECTED options. Situational: yes. Risky: yes. Optimal: no. The flaws are the reason I use those options. They prey on the melee mindset of the optimal option being the best option, the flaws are exactly why I use them.
 

Audos

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#15
DCW You make a valid point, but those are as you said options, and from a Marth UNEXPECTED options. Situational: yes. Risky: yes. Optimal: no. The flaws are the reason I use those options. They prey on the melee mindset of the optimal option being the best option, the flaws are exactly why I use them.
Das true but at the same time you should practice the optimal stuff first before branching out to more risky stuff. Marths need a way to beat pikachu's incredibly favorable punish game. Edgeguarding is one of those steps that they just haven't mastered conventionally.
 

ridemyboat

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#16
Das true but at the same time you should practice the optimal stuff first before branching out to more risky stuff. Marths need a way to beat pikachu's incredibly favorable punish game. Edgeguarding is one of those steps that they just haven't mastered conventionally.
Kind of early to conclude that pikachu has a favorable punish game.
 

Audos

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#17
Kind of early to conclude that pikachu has a favorable punish game.
Marths can land some combo strings but damage is only so good when you can't land a kill. The punish game for pikachu has more potential to net a stock, which is the main reason he loses the MU right now. Part of this is because pikachu can force marth offstage or in a terrible position that can lead off stage easily. Marth doesn't have nearly as easy a time doing the same to pikachu, because whenever pikachu is being knocked off stage he has a great chance of recovering without much worries. Marth already has a great set of neutral tools that probably beats pikachu straight up, all he needs is to convert into a KO before 200% consistently. You guys find a consistent way to edgeguard pika and put it to good use and you might see some amazing results in the future. This post might be a potential answer, I've never seen marths try to down-tilt on reaction while teetering before. But then again if it sounds too good to be true melee will find a way around it.
 

Sycorax

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#19
Marths can land some combo strings but damage is only so good when you can't land a kill. The punish game for pikachu has more potential to net a stock, which is the main reason he loses the MU right now. Part of this is because pikachu can force marth offstage or in a terrible position that can lead off stage easily. Marth doesn't have nearly as easy a time doing the same to pikachu, because whenever pikachu is being knocked off stage he has a great chance of recovering without much worries. Marth already has a great set of neutral tools that probably beats pikachu straight up, all he needs is to convert into a KO before 200% consistently. You guys find a consistent way to edgeguard pika and put it to good use and you might see some amazing results in the future. This post might be a potential answer, I've never seen marths try to down-tilt on reaction while teetering before. But then again if it sounds too good to be true melee will find a way around it.
I think there is a lot of potential for Marths to juggle Pikachu better/more and that being key to his punish game.

I also think Marths could sure up their defensive game against Pikachu too. Axe seems to gain a lot from making Marths panic and choose bad options.
 

Audos

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#20
I think there is a lot of potential for Marths to juggle Pikachu better/more and that being key to his punish game.

I also think Marths could sure up their defensive game against Pikachu too. Axe seems to gain a lot from making Marths panic and choose bad options.
Marth has crazy juggling potential in general, but pikachu isn't helpless to escape juggles where as characters like peach are too slow falling and spacies are just straight up comboed. If the pika has a DJ then trying to make sure he doesn't land is hard to do. Not only that, but pikachu is hard to hit in neutral with options that start juggles. Full DI away usually works for pikachu to just get offstage and in a majority of situations trying to ken combo just gets you up aired and eating **** in the blastzone. It isn't all that easy to grab the squirrely little rat, either. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, just that on paper pikachu seems like one of the hardest characters for marth to execute more than trash damage on (damage that doesn't net a stock). Meanwhile pikachu has moves that combo well into an edgeguard situation, a small hurtbox with fox-like mobility, and one of the best flowchart edgeguards on marth in the game. If we are going to advance the MU to a point where marth wins cleanly, we have to use every advantage we can get.

I like this edge guard
method, but a problem with it could be the options pikachu has to up-b early and high, or even worse the axe-style neutral-b's that he uses to cover the ledge area. Normally they would just stop the opponent from hanging on the ledge, but the pika can also use it to make teetering harder for the marth. Maybe powershielding can cover this option, the projectiles are pretty slow. Lab boyz.
 

Sycorax

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#21
Why would you format your text like that!? It's pretty, but so goddamn hard to read.
If the pika has a DJ then trying to make sure he doesn't land is hard to do.
Yeah and Fox tech skill is hard. The answer is plainly, "Git gud."
Not only that, but pikachu is hard to hit in neutral with options that start juggles.
I really don't believe that. Uthrow starts juggles and it shouldn't be that hard to grab Pikachu. It's certainly easier than grabbing Fox, Falcon, Sheik, Falco, or Puff, and people have no problem asserting "just grab them and punish" in those matchups.
on paper pikachu seems like one of the hardest characters for marth to execute more than trash damage on
A combination of my dtilt edgeguard and fsmash edgegaurds make ending stocks a lot easier. Before, hitting Pikachu off stage was not meaningful. Now it is.
Full DI away usually works for pikachu to just get offstage
But now you can edgeguard him so it's all good.

All you seem to be doing is complaining about how hard the game is. I don't think your arguments carry any weight.

a problem with it could be the options pikachu has to up-b early and high
Sometimes you have to cover his up-b on a read. My method doesn't cover every situation. However, going high doesn't help since Marth has so low lag out of dtilt.
or even worse the axe-style neutral-b's that he uses to cover the ledge area
lmaooo, that's a gimmick. Just jab it, or fair it, or powershield it. That neutral b doesn't do anything.

I'm sorry to be rude, but people like you who come in spouting random ideas and who clearly have no idea what they are talking about annoy me. Please consider your own expertise and whether your REALLY know what you think you know before making huge, wrong posts.
 
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AirFair

Marth tho
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#22
Marth has crazy juggling potential in general, but pikachu isn't helpless to escape juggles where as characters like peach are too slow falling and spacies are just straight up comboed. If the pika has a DJ then trying to make sure he doesn't land is hard to do. Not only that, but pikachu is hard to hit in neutral with options that start juggles. Full DI away usually works for pikachu to just get offstage and in a majority of situations trying to ken combo just gets you up aired and eating **** in the blastzone. It isn't all that easy to grab the squirrely little rat, either. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, just that on paper pikachu seems like one of the hardest characters for marth to execute more than trash damage on (damage that doesn't net a stock). Meanwhile pikachu has moves that combo well into an edgeguard situation, a small hurtbox with fox-like mobility, and one of the best flowchart edgeguards on marth in the game. If we are going to advance the MU to a point where marth wins cleanly, we have to use every advantage we can get.

I like this edge guard
method, but a problem with it could be the options pikachu has to up-b early and high, or even worse the axe-style neutral-b's that he uses to cover the ledge area. Normally they would just stop the opponent from hanging on the ledge, but the pika can also use it to make teetering harder for the marth. Maybe powershielding can cover this option, the projectiles are pretty slow. Lab boyz.
Lool this text format is hilarious

Pikachu having a double jump just means that marth needs to bait the dj out before actually swinging while juggling him, and that makes it a lot easier. The only reason juggling should be hard is if you swing at the wrong times and you can't follow their drift.

I just wanted to put a few ideas out for covering high upB.
The places where I would expect Pika to try and go would be
to the ledge
behind you
above you (a platform depending on stage)

I believe you can cover the ledge with dtilt in most situations, but maybe you don't need to teeter when he's closer to the stage and using upB since you might get hit if he does a steep angle to sweetspot.

If Pika hits you with upB and goes behind you to land, you should be able to punish, since I'm pretty sure he can't land that far away from you, and, as mentioned before, there is minimal hitstun on that move.

If he goes above you then I think you can punish if he is close enough to you, but otherwise you might just need to take your positional advantage (if he upB's to top platform.)

again, just ideas.
 

Audos

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#23
Why would you format your text like that!? It's pretty, but so goddamn hard to read.

Yeah and Fox tech skill is hard. The answer is plainly, "Git gud."

I really don't believe that. Uthrow starts juggles and it shouldn't be that hard to grab Pikachu. It's certainly easier than grabbing Fox, Falcon, Sheik, Falco, or Puff, and people have no problem asserting "just grab them and punish" in those matchups.

A combination of my dtilt edgeguard and fsmash edgegaurds make ending stocks a lot easier. Before, hitting Pikachu off stage was not meaning. Now it is.

But now you can edgeguard him so it's all good.

All you seem to be doing is complaining about how hard the game is. I don't think your arguments carry any weight.


Sometimes you have to cover his up-b on a read. My method doesn't cover every situation. However, going high doesn't help since Marth has so low lag out of dtilt.

lmaooo, that's a gimmick. Just jab it, or fair it, or powershield it, or avoid it then WD forward teeter cancel. That neutral b doesn't do anything.

I'm sorry to be rude, but people like you who come in spouting random ideas and who clearly have no idea what they are talking about annoy me. Please consider your own expertise and whether your REALLY know what you think you know before making huge, wrong posts.


HAHA believe me I'm
not putting out my argument here for the sake of belittling what you said, I'm just being devil's advocate. If you thought I was either attacking your work, or implying that the difficulty of the match-up makes it worth whining about, then I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm used to the melee grind, but even if I wasn't that doesn't invalidate my points. What I'm saying about situations where it is harder to fight pikachu are just objectively true to his character. It is fairly difficult to juggle him in comparison to the majority of the cast. I'm not even saying it is that hard, Marth has the tools to juggle basically everyone. But to ignore the difficulty like only scrubs are dropping juggles and you aren't is pretty ignorant. Actually reply with reasons why even top players struggle with it instead of implying people should "git gud".

Watch the Summit set
between PPMD and axe, Kevin doesn't even opt for upthrow when he gets grabs. Juggling is usually the bread and butter of his punish game, but instead he's f-throwing. He even does it at times when he could opt to set up an edgeguard with back throw, so clearly he isn't doing it solely to push axe into a horizontally bad position, he is playing in a manner that implies juggling isn't optimal. Whether or not you want to agree with me or not on pikachu's wealth of options in many situation to escape juggles doesn't matter to me, but don't insult me like I haven't put thought or experience on the subject.

As for the neutral b, I'm not certain about it, but I'm fairly sure
that pikachu's can force an overlap in timing, where if you try to hit the projectile you give them ledge and if you try to cover ledge the projectile interrupts you. I'll have to test that or watch some sets to find out if it is possible.

You can feel free to
patronize me some more if you like, but it isn't going to affect the impact of your discovery. I'd suggest you stick to actual facts instead of throwing irrelevant insults or attacking some guy on the internet's credibility.
 

Audos

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#24
Lool this text format is hilarious

Pikachu having a double jump just means that marth needs to bait the dj out before actually swinging while juggling him, and that makes it a lot easier. The only reason juggling should be hard is if you swing at the wrong times and you can't follow their drift.

I just wanted to put a few ideas out for covering high upB.
The places where I would expect Pika to try and go would be
to the ledge
behind you
above you (a platform depending on stage)

I believe you can cover the ledge with dtilt in most situations, but maybe you don't need to teeter when he's closer to the stage and using upB since you might get hit if he does a steep angle to sweetspot.

If Pika hits you with upB and goes behind you to land, you should be able to punish, since I'm pretty sure he can't land that far away from you, and, as mentioned before, there is minimal hitstun on that move.

If he goes above you then I think you can punish if he is close enough to you, but otherwise you might just need to take your positional advantage (if he upB's to top platform.)

again, just ideas.
In my experience there are a ton of situations where pikachu forces a 50/50 where he either takes an ariel or uses an escape option. He can land on platforms with airdodges and fastfall timing mixups very well, and his up-b is amazing to force you to hold awkward stage positioning so that you can attempt to cover both side plats at the same time. Before shield dropping was so effective, you could try and abuse his position after the 50/50 went the wrong way and he was still above you, but now you have to give them more respect. It's a mathematically losing battle, and while the juggle never hurts you much (pikachu's downward hitbox priority isn't much and almost never combos if they snuff your juggle), it isn't reliable to base your punish game on it as much as a floatier character or a fastfaller.

I like the way you try to break down different options for recovering, which is the kind of things I enjoy when looking for a good edge-guarding sequence. I am admittedly not perfect at knowing all of pikachu's recovery
options, I'm sure a lot of situations are reactable. All of them are not, though and require reads to cover. This d-tilt edge guard might work very well and provide a decent answer to some options but doesn't have a huge payoff. Even if you land this very reaction-intensive edgeguard you still have to rinse and repeat several times while watching for mix-ups, which is still a very uphill battle considering pikachu has such an easier time doing the same. That being said I'm a firm believer in the hard yet even match-up, I think marth is a 50/50 with sheik even if the marth has to do more work overall to match up with her. If fully fleshed out, marth might have a similar chance edge guarding pikachu at top level as pika does to him. If that does happen I'll be thoroughly impressed with both the work marths have put in at the top as well as the usually underappreciated work of theorycrafters like this on the forum.
 

Sycorax

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#25
Pikachu having a double jump just means that marth needs to bait the dj out before actually swinging while juggling him
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Characters like Pikachu, Sheik, and Link may be able to time fastfalls such that Marth can't react to whether they fastfall, regular fall, or double jump away. It's something I'm interested in testing with debug mode.
 

Sutekh

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#26
I started doing this against a friend of mine last night, and it was surprisingly effective. Good find!
 

capusa27

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#27
I have had opinions about this for a long time, and I finally did the research to figure this out. Marths traditionally have had a lot of trouble against Pikachu, and one of the reasons for this is that they do not know how to edgeguard Pikachu. Marth should not struggle that hard to edgeguard Pikachu. He has strong options to make Pikachu's life hell.

What to do:
You can cover every up-b angle to the ledge with dtilt. If Marth teeters on the edge and dtilts, it covers every angle Pikachu can approach the ledge from. It covers the high angles as well as Pikachu's lowest sweetspot angle (in this picture, Pikachu will grab the ledge on the next frame). For the record, Axe tends to angle his up-bs higher than this. Furthermore, you can react to Pikachu's up-b with your dtilt. On the first frame of Pikachu's up-b, little white clouds appear below him. The reaction window is about 2 frames easier than reacting to tech in place with grab. This only works if Pikachu will travel the second leg of his up-b. If he only travels the first, you cannot react with dtilt.

In this way, you can cover all of Pikachu's attempts to grab the ledge. If Pikachu tries to up-b onto the stage, you can cover those options easily too. If he hits you with his up-b, there is so litle hitstun that you can instantly punish him. If he lands on a side platform, he has 24 frames of landing lag, plus hang-time at the end of his up-b. This is enough time to hit him with a uair, utilt, fair, or fsmash depending on the spacing.

Marth has other options as well. Forward smash will also cover all of Pikachu's angles to the ledge, but you cannot use it on reaction. Often, Pikachu will up-b at a predictable time making forward smash easier to hit. You can see PPMD make a lot of good use of this in his set versus Axe at Smash Summit 1 until Axe starts mixing up his up-b timings to make PPMD miss. You can also see PPMD use dair to cover Axe's initially predictable up-bs.

Another thing to note about Pikachu's up-b is that his hurtbox expands massively for 1 frame at the midpoint of his up-b. You can see MacD abuse this fact in this image. MacD probably could have been farther away honestly. And then Marth's fsmash reaches WAY farther than Peach's bair. When teetering on the edge, you can often hit Pikchu in the midpoint of his up-b with an fsmash or jump off and dair. PPMD does both of these in his set versus Axe.

What not to do:
With this knowledge, I hope that the Pikachu matchup can be easier for Marth mains. Effective edgeguarding techniques will also improve the effectiveness of uthrow juggles. Marth has a guaranteed uthrow->uair on Pikachu that leads into a strong juggle. However, this is often cut short by Pikachu DIing offstage and recovering for free against clueless Marths. With better edgeguarding, DIing offstage may not be as appealing an option.

I'm confused about "On the first frame of Pickachu's up-b...than reacting to tech in place with grab." Are you saying that after reacting to the white clouds, you immediately d-tilt, or do you wait until the second part of the up-b? Thanks. Sycorax Sycorax

Also, what have you uncovered in your Pickachu punish game investigation? Will you make a separate thread for that?
 
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Sycorax

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#28
I'm confused about "On the first frame of Pickachu's up-b...than reacting to tech in place with grab." Are you saying that after reacting to the white clouds, you immediately d-tilt, or do you wait until the second part of the up-b?
You use the first frame white clouds as a cue to time your dtilt. It's not exactly as soon as possible. But the white clouds are a cue that comes early enough to allow you time to react.
Also, what have you uncovered in your Pickachu punish game investigation? Will you make a separate thread for that?
Nothing specific other than uthrow uair true combos similarly to how it does against Marth. I also think Marth's juggle options could be flow charted, but it's really difficult. I'm still thinking about how test it in frame advance mode. If Marths became better at juggling non-fastfallers then maybe uthrow could be much more significant of a threat.
 

_trix_

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#29
Sycorax Sycorax the main thing that makes pikachu hard to juggle is that he can mix up fastfall timing better than any top 15 character(except yoshi). His regular fall speed/acceleration is similar to that of marths, but his fastfall speed is just slightly slower than foxes. He also has relatively high priority on down air, so the spacing on your upairs has to be super precise to not trade with him, and it's quite difficult to be that precise when he's mixing up his ff timing. Also, pikachu can heavily distort his body by using his aerials, which makes it even harder to hit him. I.E. axe will use fair coming down, because it moves pikachu hitboxes up significantly and slows his fall. I think youre best bet is to cover the fast fall with a low upair, then try to shark his landing(downair has extremely high landing lag, and that is what he is most likely going to use to get down). You should also mix up when you go to hit him with upair, because he can't undo a fastfall. I.E. if you make him think your going high up to hit him, he might fastfall high up, which means he is now committed to fast falling till he hits the ground, which makes hitting him upair, fair, or uptilt a piece of cake. Overall though, I think forward throw is a far better option than upthrow because 1. Upthrow has awful frame advantage on pikachu, in some situations he actually gets out of hit stun before you get out of lag. 2. Even if you manage to juggle him repeatedly with upairs, he will just DI offstage and do a single up b to ledge, which is impossible to react to as you discussed, and requires an extremely hard read to cover. Fthrow on the other hand gives you fantastic frame advantage even if you don't get the tech chase, you can just dash dance and bait something out.
 

capusa27

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#30
Sycorax Sycorax

In January, PPMD mentioned that chasing Pikachu with forward airs after up throwing him. What do you think of this? I would think that this would be better than up air since forward air has less landing lag, and weak hit forward air can lead to tipper F-smash. This could make edguarding Pikachu much easier. Agree?
 
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Sycorax

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#31
Sycorax Sycorax

In January, PPMD mentioned that chasing Pikachu with forward airs after up throwing him. What do you think of this? I would think that this would be better than up air since forward air has less landing lag, and weak hit forward air can lead to tipper F-smash. This could make edguarding Pikachu much easier. Agree?
I mean, yeah, maybe. Idk. Uthrow fair only true combos on very specific DIs at a very specific percent range. But maybe simply being under Pikachu is enough to earn a fair. However, Marths don't do this consistently, even against similar characters like Sheik and Link. So yeah, maybe.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Jul 7, 2014
Messages
501
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#32
Sycorax Sycorax the main thing that makes pikachu hard to juggle is that he can mix up fastfall timing better than any top 15 character(except yoshi). His regular fall speed/acceleration is similar to that of marths, but his fastfall speed is just slightly slower than foxes. He also has relatively high priority on down air, so the spacing on your upairs has to be super precise to not trade with him, and it's quite difficult to be that precise when he's mixing up his ff timing. Also, pikachu can heavily distort his body by using his aerials, which makes it even harder to hit him. I.E. axe will use fair coming down, because it moves pikachu hitboxes up significantly and slows his fall. I think youre best bet is to cover the fast fall with a low upair, then try to shark his landing(downair has extremely high landing lag, and that is what he is most likely going to use to get down). You should also mix up when you go to hit him with upair, because he can't undo a fastfall. I.E. if you make him think your going high up to hit him, he might fastfall high up, which means he is now committed to fast falling till he hits the ground, which makes hitting him upair, fair, or uptilt a piece of cake. Overall though, I think forward throw is a far better option than upthrow because 1. Upthrow has awful frame advantage on pikachu, in some situations he actually gets out of hit stun before you get out of lag. 2. Even if you manage to juggle him repeatedly with upairs, he will just DI offstage and do a single up b to ledge, which is impossible to react to as you discussed, and requires an extremely hard read to cover. Fthrow on the other hand gives you fantastic frame advantage even if you don't get the tech chase, you can just dash dance and bait something out.
I don't disagree juggling Pikachu (and characters who fall like Pikachu) is hard. I think it could be improved. I have a feeling in my bones that some guaranteed juggle could be figured out. That's just a hunch though. At the very least, a flowchart of mixups should certainly exist, mixups that would be heavily weighed in Marth's favor.

What you said is more or less correct on a top level, but you marred some specific details. His fastfall speed is A LOT slower than Fox's. It's slightly slower than Sheik's, Link's, Yoshi's, and Roy's, but not the fastfallers. Fair does not affect Pikachu's fall speed. Pikachu never gets out of stun before Marth is out of uthrow lag. At 0%, uthrow is +8 on Pikachu (with Marth in port 4).

You can cover a single up-b to the ledge with a dtilt read and be completely safe. It's not a hard read. If you can't get there in time for a dtilt, just don't get close and Pikachu still has to work his way out of the corner.

Fthrow sucks. Reaction tech chasing could be possible, but no one does it. The alternative, as you stated, is to bait something out. I'm sorry, but there is no way that baiting something out on the ground is a more favorable situation for Marth in this matchup than trying to do a juggle mixup. Pikachu has more options and more punishing options on the ground than coming down from the air.

Pikachu's dair is not that disjoint. Marth's falling uair and falling fair will easily beat it. Timing them is hard though.

Idk. I could write out more response, but it would be impossible to convince you without demonstrating in a game. But I don't have the opportunity to play Axe and I'm not good enough to make it a close game. I'm just saying I think this is a valid strategy that people should try. I still need to flesh out what I think about juggling mixups.
 

Audos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
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104
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Austintown, Ohio
#33
I don't disagree juggling Pikachu (and characters who fall like Pikachu) is hard. I think it could be improved. I have a feeling in my bones that some guaranteed juggle could be figured out. That's just a hunch though. At the very least, a flowchart of mixups should certainly exist, mixups that would be heavily weighed in Marth's favor.

What you said is more or less correct on a top level, but you marred some specific details. His fastfall speed is A LOT slower than Fox's. It's slightly slower than Sheik's, Link's, Yoshi's, and Roy's, but not the fastfallers. Fair does not affect Pikachu's fall speed. Pikachu never gets out of stun before Marth is out of uthrow lag. At 0%, uthrow is +8 on Pikachu (with Marth in port 4).

You can cover a single up-b to the ledge with a dtilt read and be completely safe. It's not a hard read. If you can't get there in time for a dtilt, just don't get close and Pikachu still has to work his way out of the corner.

Fthrow sucks. Reaction tech chasing could be possible, but no one does it. The alternative, as you stated, is to bait something out. I'm sorry, but there is no way that baiting something out on the ground is a more favorable situation for Marth in this matchup than trying to do a juggle mixup. Pikachu has more options and more punishing options on the ground than coming down from the air.

Pikachu's dair is not that disjoint. Marth's falling uair and falling fair will easily beat it. Timing them is hard though.

Idk. I could write out more response, but it would be impossible to convince you without demonstrating in a game. But I don't have the opportunity to play Axe and I'm not good enough to make it a close game. I'm just saying I think this is a valid strategy that people should try. I still need to flesh out what I think about juggling mixups.
You can't cover single up-b on reaction, which is a key issue. If you tried to you would get up air after they grab ledge and probably gimped. F-throw is iffy still, but the frame data on up throw doesn't lie. You might have mix-ups but there is no guaranteed reactable way to cover everything, this I can assure you. In the end pikachu does really deal with the juggles well, and when you do juggle him you can almost never confirm into a kill.
 
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Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Atlanta, GA
#34
You can't cover single up-b on reaction, which is a key issue. If you tried to you would get up air after they grab ledge and probably gimped.
That's why I said to do it as a read. And you can do it safely by shielding or dashing away immediately.
F-throw is iffy still, but the frame data on up throw doesn't lie. You might have mix-ups but there is no guaranteed reactable way to cover everything, this I can assure you.
It's not clear to me what exactly you're saying here. In case you're trying to say that uthrow is bad against Pikachu, you should know that Marth has a guaranteed uthrow uair on Pikachu from 7% to 55%.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Messages
501
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Atlanta, GA
#36
Good to know. Is that conclusion the result of original research, or is there somewhere I could read more about this?
I researched it myself. At lower percents it's not useful because you have to fullhop and Pikachu gets out of hitstun too quickly. Fair can work well instead there but sometimes isn't guaranteed.
 

capusa27

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
64
#37
Hi, Sycorax Sycorax

Since I do not have the resources to test this, I have a question for you.

Is Marth's forward air fast enough that he can REACT rising forward air to Pikachu's neutral air to punish Pikachu when Pikachu is right outside of Marth's down tilt range?

I know that down tilt makes Marth crouch and makes Pikachu's neutral air whiff at close range, at least from what I have seen. Because of this, I would not think that this would be a problem if Marth could not rising forward air Pikachu.

Thanks.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
501
Location
Atlanta, GA
#38
Hi, Sycorax Sycorax

Since I do not have the resources to test this, I have a question for you.

Is Marth's forward air fast enough that he can REACT rising forward air to Pikachu's neutral air to punish Pikachu when Pikachu is right outside of Marth's down tilt range?

I know that down tilt makes Marth crouch and makes Pikachu's neutral air whiff at close range, at least from what I have seen. Because of this, I would not think that this would be a problem if Marth could not rising forward air Pikachu.

Thanks.
No you can't react to Pikachu's dash SH nair with SH rising fair when Pikachu starts right outside your dtilt range.
 
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