1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 225,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

How to Edgeguard Pikachu

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Sycorax, Aug 18, 2016.

  1. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I have had opinions about this for a long time, and I finally did the research to figure this out. Marths traditionally have had a lot of trouble against Pikachu, and one of the reasons for this is that they do not know how to edgeguard Pikachu. Marth should not struggle that hard to edgeguard Pikachu. He has strong options to make Pikachu's life hell.

    What to do:
    You can cover every up-b angle to the ledge with dtilt. If Marth teeters on the edge and dtilts, it covers every angle Pikachu can approach the ledge from. It covers the high angles as well as Pikachu's lowest sweetspot angle (in this picture, Pikachu will grab the ledge on the next frame). For the record, Axe tends to angle his up-bs higher than this. Furthermore, you can react to Pikachu's up-b with your dtilt. On the first frame of Pikachu's up-b, little white clouds appear below him. The reaction window is about 2 frames easier than reacting to tech in place with grab. This only works if Pikachu will travel the second leg of his up-b. If he only travels the first, you cannot react with dtilt.

    In this way, you can cover all of Pikachu's attempts to grab the ledge. If Pikachu tries to up-b onto the stage, you can cover those options easily too. If he hits you with his up-b, there is so litle hitstun that you can instantly punish him. If he lands on a side platform, he has 24 frames of landing lag, plus hang-time at the end of his up-b. This is enough time to hit him with a uair, utilt, fair, or fsmash depending on the spacing.

    Marth has other options as well. Forward smash will also cover all of Pikachu's angles to the ledge, but you cannot use it on reaction. Often, Pikachu will up-b at a predictable time making forward smash easier to hit. You can see PPMD make a lot of good use of this in his set versus Axe at Smash Summit 1 until Axe starts mixing up his up-b timings to make PPMD miss. You can also see PPMD use dair to cover Axe's initially predictable up-bs.

    Another thing to note about Pikachu's up-b is that his hurtbox expands massively for 1 frame at the midpoint of his up-b. You can see MacD abuse this fact in this image. MacD probably could have been farther away honestly. And then Marth's fsmash reaches WAY farther than Peach's bair. When teetering on the edge, you can often hit Pikchu in the midpoint of his up-b with an fsmash or jump off and dair. PPMD does both of these in his set versus Axe.

    What not to do:
    With this knowledge, I hope that the Pikachu matchup can be easier for Marth mains. Effective edgeguarding techniques will also improve the effectiveness of uthrow juggles. Marth has a guaranteed uthrow->uair on Pikachu that leads into a strong juggle. However, this is often cut short by Pikachu DIing offstage and recovering for free against clueless Marths. With better edgeguarding, DIing offstage may not be as appealing an option.
     
    APESAUCE, Kyomaku, Syaith and 17 others like this.
  2. Scaremonger

    Scaremonger
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    News Flash ***** you're not a real gamer
    If Pikachu is below the ledge, you actually can cover every option on reaction with fsmash. ARC originally told me about this ~6 months ago, and I tested it with him pretty extensively. In this setup, you can actually cover both single and double-legged up-b with the same timing.
     
  3. V_D_X

    V_D_X
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    May 16, 2015
    Messages:
    25
    Can you describe the setup/timing of the fsmash?
     
    #3 V_D_X, Aug 18, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  4. Scaremonger

    Scaremonger
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    News Flash ***** you're not a real gamer
    You teeter at the ledge, and if Pika is coming from below, you fsmash as soon as you hear the sound of his up-b. Just hit the c-stick as soon as you hear it, it covers every possible angle with the same timing.
     
  5. Suge Knight

    Suge Knight
    Expand Collapse
    Kys

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2014
    Messages:
    772
    Taking 4 stocks from Pikachu should help you out.
     
  6. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I don't believe that. The frames just aren't there. I'm pretty sure it's a soft read. But I might be wrong.
     
  7. CP Adagio

    CP Adagio
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Messages:
    52
    Oof
     
  8. Scaremonger

    Scaremonger
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    News Flash ***** you're not a real gamer
    If you don't believe me, ask ARC lol. Like, I sat there for over an hour testing this setup, and it's legit. I'm not sure of the frame data, but I can absolutely promise you that it was on pure reaction.
     
  9. ridemyboat

    ridemyboat
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    You could probably react to the sound of their controller and fsmash if they're below.
     
  10. Awstintacious

    Awstintacious
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2011
    Messages:
    121
    Location:
    Atlanta, Georgia
    We solved the puzzle yay!
     
  11. eideeiit

    eideeiit
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    May 14, 2014
    Messages:
    580
    Location:
    Finland, Turku
    Humans can react to sound quicker than to visual cues so this might be possible? Then again, fsmash hits f10 and takes more frames to reach low. Idk.
     
  12. TheBSKR

    TheBSKR
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Pikachu has a great recovery in my opinion, so I would not advise challenging it if you are not certain that you can 1. kill Pikachu and 2. Get back to the stage
    What I try is setting up Pikachu to be above the stage, so It is extremely easy to edgeguard . But if Pikachu is below the stage you can try: 1. Dash off double jump (if you are too low) up b to stage spike 2. Letting him back on stage up tilt into reverse ken combo 3. If Pikachu lands above you on fd or fod wavedash back fsmash.
     
  13. DCW

    DCW
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2015
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    Georgia
    Thank you @#SplitsOnTrees!

    I think the OP's method is better than the ones mentioned here. It covers more options at less risk to the Marth. Specifically, (#1) dash off up-B to stage spike requires a read for when they will up-B. It can miss, be interrupted by Pikachu's up-B, or wall-teched by the Pikachu. Any of these could lead to death for you. (#2) Waiting to uptilt a recovery to the stage requires a read that they will go for stage instead of ledge, so they can get to the ledge for free. (#3) likewise only covers recovery to stage, leaving the ledge uncovered. Compare these three methods with the OP's method, which covers recoveries to both ledge and stage in a guaranteed way that keeps the Marth totally safe.
     
    _trix_ likes this.
  14. TheBSKR

    TheBSKR
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    DCW You make a valid point, but those are as you said options, and from a Marth UNEXPECTED options. Situational: yes. Risky: yes. Optimal: no. The flaws are the reason I use those options. They prey on the melee mindset of the optimal option being the best option, the flaws are exactly why I use them.
     
  15. Audos

    Audos
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Austintown, Ohio
    Das true but at the same time you should practice the optimal stuff first before branching out to more risky stuff. Marths need a way to beat pikachu's incredibly favorable punish game. Edgeguarding is one of those steps that they just haven't mastered conventionally.
     
  16. ridemyboat

    ridemyboat
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Kind of early to conclude that pikachu has a favorable punish game.
     
  17. Audos

    Audos
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Austintown, Ohio
    Marths can land some combo strings but damage is only so good when you can't land a kill. The punish game for pikachu has more potential to net a stock, which is the main reason he loses the MU right now. Part of this is because pikachu can force marth offstage or in a terrible position that can lead off stage easily. Marth doesn't have nearly as easy a time doing the same to pikachu, because whenever pikachu is being knocked off stage he has a great chance of recovering without much worries. Marth already has a great set of neutral tools that probably beats pikachu straight up, all he needs is to convert into a KO before 200% consistently. You guys find a consistent way to edgeguard pika and put it to good use and you might see some amazing results in the future. This post might be a potential answer, I've never seen marths try to down-tilt on reaction while teetering before. But then again if it sounds too good to be true melee will find a way around it.
     
  18. AirFair

    AirFair
    Expand Collapse
    Marth tho

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,863
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    This is a really good post! Glad to learn more about this weird matchup.
     
  19. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I think there is a lot of potential for Marths to juggle Pikachu better/more and that being key to his punish game.

    I also think Marths could sure up their defensive game against Pikachu too. Axe seems to gain a lot from making Marths panic and choose bad options.
     
  20. Audos

    Audos
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Austintown, Ohio
    Marth has crazy juggling potential in general, but pikachu isn't helpless to escape juggles where as characters like peach are too slow falling and spacies are just straight up comboed. If the pika has a DJ then trying to make sure he doesn't land is hard to do. Not only that, but pikachu is hard to hit in neutral with options that start juggles. Full DI away usually works for pikachu to just get offstage and in a majority of situations trying to ken combo just gets you up aired and eating **** in the blastzone. It isn't all that easy to grab the squirrely little rat, either. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, just that on paper pikachu seems like one of the hardest characters for marth to execute more than trash damage on (damage that doesn't net a stock). Meanwhile pikachu has moves that combo well into an edgeguard situation, a small hurtbox with fox-like mobility, and one of the best flowchart edgeguards on marth in the game. If we are going to advance the MU to a point where marth wins cleanly, we have to use every advantage we can get.

    I like this edge guard
    method, but a problem with it could be the options pikachu has to up-b early and high, or even worse the axe-style neutral-b's that he uses to cover the ledge area. Normally they would just stop the opponent from hanging on the ledge, but the pika can also use it to make teetering harder for the marth. Maybe powershielding can cover this option, the projectiles are pretty slow. Lab boyz.
     
  21. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Why would you format your text like that!? It's pretty, but so goddamn hard to read.
    Yeah and Fox tech skill is hard. The answer is plainly, "Git gud."
    I really don't believe that. Uthrow starts juggles and it shouldn't be that hard to grab Pikachu. It's certainly easier than grabbing Fox, Falcon, Sheik, Falco, or Puff, and people have no problem asserting "just grab them and punish" in those matchups.
    A combination of my dtilt edgeguard and fsmash edgegaurds make ending stocks a lot easier. Before, hitting Pikachu off stage was not meaningful. Now it is.
    But now you can edgeguard him so it's all good.

    All you seem to be doing is complaining about how hard the game is. I don't think your arguments carry any weight.

    Sometimes you have to cover his up-b on a read. My method doesn't cover every situation. However, going high doesn't help since Marth has so low lag out of dtilt.
    lmaooo, that's a gimmick. Just jab it, or fair it, or powershield it. That neutral b doesn't do anything.

    I'm sorry to be rude, but people like you who come in spouting random ideas and who clearly have no idea what they are talking about annoy me. Please consider your own expertise and whether your REALLY know what you think you know before making huge, wrong posts.
     
    #21 Sycorax, Aug 25, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  22. AirFair

    AirFair
    Expand Collapse
    Marth tho

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,863
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Lool this text format is hilarious

    Pikachu having a double jump just means that marth needs to bait the dj out before actually swinging while juggling him, and that makes it a lot easier. The only reason juggling should be hard is if you swing at the wrong times and you can't follow their drift.

    I just wanted to put a few ideas out for covering high upB.
    The places where I would expect Pika to try and go would be
    to the ledge
    behind you
    above you (a platform depending on stage)

    I believe you can cover the ledge with dtilt in most situations, but maybe you don't need to teeter when he's closer to the stage and using upB since you might get hit if he does a steep angle to sweetspot.

    If Pika hits you with upB and goes behind you to land, you should be able to punish, since I'm pretty sure he can't land that far away from you, and, as mentioned before, there is minimal hitstun on that move.

    If he goes above you then I think you can punish if he is close enough to you, but otherwise you might just need to take your positional advantage (if he upB's to top platform.)

    again, just ideas.
     
    Sycorax likes this.
  23. Audos

    Audos
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Austintown, Ohio


    HAHA believe me I'm
    not putting out my argument here for the sake of belittling what you said, I'm just being devil's advocate. If you thought I was either attacking your work, or implying that the difficulty of the match-up makes it worth whining about, then I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm used to the melee grind, but even if I wasn't that doesn't invalidate my points. What I'm saying about situations where it is harder to fight pikachu are just objectively true to his character. It is fairly difficult to juggle him in comparison to the majority of the cast. I'm not even saying it is that hard, Marth has the tools to juggle basically everyone. But to ignore the difficulty like only scrubs are dropping juggles and you aren't is pretty ignorant. Actually reply with reasons why even top players struggle with it instead of implying people should "git gud".

    Watch the Summit set
    between PPMD and axe, Kevin doesn't even opt for upthrow when he gets grabs. Juggling is usually the bread and butter of his punish game, but instead he's f-throwing. He even does it at times when he could opt to set up an edgeguard with back throw, so clearly he isn't doing it solely to push axe into a horizontally bad position, he is playing in a manner that implies juggling isn't optimal. Whether or not you want to agree with me or not on pikachu's wealth of options in many situation to escape juggles doesn't matter to me, but don't insult me like I haven't put thought or experience on the subject.

    As for the neutral b, I'm not certain about it, but I'm fairly sure
    that pikachu's can force an overlap in timing, where if you try to hit the projectile you give them ledge and if you try to cover ledge the projectile interrupts you. I'll have to test that or watch some sets to find out if it is possible.

    You can feel free to
    patronize me some more if you like, but it isn't going to affect the impact of your discovery. I'd suggest you stick to actual facts instead of throwing irrelevant insults or attacking some guy on the internet's credibility.
     
  24. Audos

    Audos
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Austintown, Ohio
    In my experience there are a ton of situations where pikachu forces a 50/50 where he either takes an ariel or uses an escape option. He can land on platforms with airdodges and fastfall timing mixups very well, and his up-b is amazing to force you to hold awkward stage positioning so that you can attempt to cover both side plats at the same time. Before shield dropping was so effective, you could try and abuse his position after the 50/50 went the wrong way and he was still above you, but now you have to give them more respect. It's a mathematically losing battle, and while the juggle never hurts you much (pikachu's downward hitbox priority isn't much and almost never combos if they snuff your juggle), it isn't reliable to base your punish game on it as much as a floatier character or a fastfaller.

    I like the way you try to break down different options for recovering, which is the kind of things I enjoy when looking for a good edge-guarding sequence. I am admittedly not perfect at knowing all of pikachu's recovery
    options, I'm sure a lot of situations are reactable. All of them are not, though and require reads to cover. This d-tilt edge guard might work very well and provide a decent answer to some options but doesn't have a huge payoff. Even if you land this very reaction-intensive edgeguard you still have to rinse and repeat several times while watching for mix-ups, which is still a very uphill battle considering pikachu has such an easier time doing the same. That being said I'm a firm believer in the hard yet even match-up, I think marth is a 50/50 with sheik even if the marth has to do more work overall to match up with her. If fully fleshed out, marth might have a similar chance edge guarding pikachu at top level as pika does to him. If that does happen I'll be thoroughly impressed with both the work marths have put in at the top as well as the usually underappreciated work of theorycrafters like this on the forum.
     
  25. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Characters like Pikachu, Sheik, and Link may be able to time fastfalls such that Marth can't react to whether they fastfall, regular fall, or double jump away. It's something I'm interested in testing with debug mode.
     
  26. Sutekh

    Sutekh
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    142
    I started doing this against a friend of mine last night, and it was surprisingly effective. Good find!
     
  27. capusa27

    capusa27
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    48

    I'm confused about "On the first frame of Pickachu's up-b...than reacting to tech in place with grab." Are you saying that after reacting to the white clouds, you immediately d-tilt, or do you wait until the second part of the up-b? Thanks. @#SplitsOnTrees

    Also, what have you uncovered in your Pickachu punish game investigation? Will you make a separate thread for that?
     
    #27 capusa27, Sep 2, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
  28. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    You use the first frame white clouds as a cue to time your dtilt. It's not exactly as soon as possible. But the white clouds are a cue that comes early enough to allow you time to react.
    Nothing specific other than uthrow uair true combos similarly to how it does against Marth. I also think Marth's juggle options could be flow charted, but it's really difficult. I'm still thinking about how test it in frame advance mode. If Marths became better at juggling non-fastfallers then maybe uthrow could be much more significant of a threat.
     
    DCW likes this.
  29. _trix_

    _trix_
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Chicago
    @#SplitsOnTrees the main thing that makes pikachu hard to juggle is that he can mix up fastfall timing better than any top 15 character(except yoshi). His regular fall speed/acceleration is similar to that of marths, but his fastfall speed is just slightly slower than foxes. He also has relatively high priority on down air, so the spacing on your upairs has to be super precise to not trade with him, and it's quite difficult to be that precise when he's mixing up his ff timing. Also, pikachu can heavily distort his body by using his aerials, which makes it even harder to hit him. I.E. axe will use fair coming down, because it moves pikachu hitboxes up significantly and slows his fall. I think youre best bet is to cover the fast fall with a low upair, then try to shark his landing(downair has extremely high landing lag, and that is what he is most likely going to use to get down). You should also mix up when you go to hit him with upair, because he can't undo a fastfall. I.E. if you make him think your going high up to hit him, he might fastfall high up, which means he is now committed to fast falling till he hits the ground, which makes hitting him upair, fair, or uptilt a piece of cake. Overall though, I think forward throw is a far better option than upthrow because 1. Upthrow has awful frame advantage on pikachu, in some situations he actually gets out of hit stun before you get out of lag. 2. Even if you manage to juggle him repeatedly with upairs, he will just DI offstage and do a single up b to ledge, which is impossible to react to as you discussed, and requires an extremely hard read to cover. Fthrow on the other hand gives you fantastic frame advantage even if you don't get the tech chase, you can just dash dance and bait something out.
     
  30. capusa27

    capusa27
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    48
    @#SplitsOnTrees

    In January, PPMD mentioned that chasing Pikachu with forward airs after up throwing him. What do you think of this? I would think that this would be better than up air since forward air has less landing lag, and weak hit forward air can lead to tipper F-smash. This could make edguarding Pikachu much easier. Agree?
     
    #30 capusa27, Sep 5, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  31. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I mean, yeah, maybe. Idk. Uthrow fair only true combos on very specific DIs at a very specific percent range. But maybe simply being under Pikachu is enough to earn a fair. However, Marths don't do this consistently, even against similar characters like Sheik and Link. So yeah, maybe.
     
  32. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I don't disagree juggling Pikachu (and characters who fall like Pikachu) is hard. I think it could be improved. I have a feeling in my bones that some guaranteed juggle could be figured out. That's just a hunch though. At the very least, a flowchart of mixups should certainly exist, mixups that would be heavily weighed in Marth's favor.

    What you said is more or less correct on a top level, but you marred some specific details. His fastfall speed is A LOT slower than Fox's. It's slightly slower than Sheik's, Link's, Yoshi's, and Roy's, but not the fastfallers. Fair does not affect Pikachu's fall speed. Pikachu never gets out of stun before Marth is out of uthrow lag. At 0%, uthrow is +8 on Pikachu (with Marth in port 4).

    You can cover a single up-b to the ledge with a dtilt read and be completely safe. It's not a hard read. If you can't get there in time for a dtilt, just don't get close and Pikachu still has to work his way out of the corner.

    Fthrow sucks. Reaction tech chasing could be possible, but no one does it. The alternative, as you stated, is to bait something out. I'm sorry, but there is no way that baiting something out on the ground is a more favorable situation for Marth in this matchup than trying to do a juggle mixup. Pikachu has more options and more punishing options on the ground than coming down from the air.

    Pikachu's dair is not that disjoint. Marth's falling uair and falling fair will easily beat it. Timing them is hard though.

    Idk. I could write out more response, but it would be impossible to convince you without demonstrating in a game. But I don't have the opportunity to play Axe and I'm not good enough to make it a close game. I'm just saying I think this is a valid strategy that people should try. I still need to flesh out what I think about juggling mixups.
     
  33. Audos

    Audos
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Austintown, Ohio
    You can't cover single up-b on reaction, which is a key issue. If you tried to you would get up air after they grab ledge and probably gimped. F-throw is iffy still, but the frame data on up throw doesn't lie. You might have mix-ups but there is no guaranteed reactable way to cover everything, this I can assure you. In the end pikachu does really deal with the juggles well, and when you do juggle him you can almost never confirm into a kill.
     
    #33 Audos, Sep 6, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  34. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    That's why I said to do it as a read. And you can do it safely by shielding or dashing away immediately.
    It's not clear to me what exactly you're saying here. In case you're trying to say that uthrow is bad against Pikachu, you should know that Marth has a guaranteed uthrow uair on Pikachu from 7% to 55%.
     
  35. DCW

    DCW
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2015
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    Georgia
    Good to know. Is that conclusion the result of original research, or is there somewhere I could read more about this?
     
  36. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I researched it myself. At lower percents it's not useful because you have to fullhop and Pikachu gets out of hitstun too quickly. Fair can work well instead there but sometimes isn't guaranteed.
     
    DCW likes this.
  37. capusa27

    capusa27
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    48
    Hi, @#SplitsOnTrees

    Since I do not have the resources to test this, I have a question for you.

    Is Marth's forward air fast enough that he can REACT rising forward air to Pikachu's neutral air to punish Pikachu when Pikachu is right outside of Marth's down tilt range?

    I know that down tilt makes Marth crouch and makes Pikachu's neutral air whiff at close range, at least from what I have seen. Because of this, I would not think that this would be a problem if Marth could not rising forward air Pikachu.

    Thanks.
     
  38. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    No you can't react to Pikachu's dash SH nair with SH rising fair when Pikachu starts right outside your dtilt range.
     
  39. Tablesalt

    Tablesalt
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2016
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Valparaiso, Indiana
    Vorheese, a ranked player in Indiana told me that immediate bair and dair from ledge covers angles to the ledge or above the ledge from the side.
     
  40. Audos

    Audos
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Austintown, Ohio
    But grabbing the ledge is telegraphed and the pikachu can usually just go for stage on reaction.
     

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?