How to Deal With Specific Moves: Pikachu's QAC & Thunder Jolt

[TheMike]

How to Deal with Specific Moves​

I'm making this new thread because the last one had some old information For the ones who don't know how this thread works... it's simple: we'll have weekly discussion about how to deal with certain things. Then, if you want to discuss, just post your way to avoid getting hit by the move chosen for that week. If possible, some depth informaton about that would be great


~ Old Discussions ~



#1 MK's Tornado

Since all of us will be hit by this move at least sometimes we need to learn to punish it if they miss and if we're caught we must learn how to DI out of it the best. Essentially you want to DI into the center of the Tornado and then DI up and mash up-b to escape from the top. This is much harder than it sounds and will take all of us a lot of practice since ROB is such an odd shape he gets stuck inside easier than most. But it can be done and should be practiced and mastered.

How to avoid it completely by HugS
How to DI the Tornado Effectively by DuLL_RaZer


#2 Marth's Dancing Blade

Marth's Dancing Blade can be 1-4 hits long and has multiple different iterations, all of which can lead to different things for the Marth player. This move comes out in 4 frames, which needless to say is very fast, making it difficult to punish.

Opinions are torn on the best way to deal with this move but one thing we can all agree on is the fact that it is mighty annoying when used correctly. Depending on Marth's spacing at the beginning of the move, SDI is a viable option. If he starts too close to you then you can SDI behind him to punish with whatever move you see fit. If he starts too far away you can SDI away and hopefully get out of it's range. You can sheild or downsmash in between hits with good timing and practice. It is currently unknown if you can d-tilt in between hits as well but if so that leads to the obvious dtilt>trip>grab, or dtilt>ftilt. You may also roll in between hits, but I'm unsure how reliable this is.

Dancing Blade info and combos by Shockdrake


#3 Toon Link's Wall

To get past TLink's wall you literally just have to walk forward and powershield everything.

There's a few things TLink can do out of a SH.

BAir/NAir > Quick Draw.
-If you manage to powershield the aerial, SH Fair OoS is probably your best option here.

Bomb Pull > Quick Draw
-They usually won't do this unless a fair distance away. You just have to watch for the bomb pull and you get a free laser. Free FSmash if they're close enough.
-If you miss the timing on the bomb pull you can run forward and powershield the quickdraw then try for a DTilt or FTilt or something.

Double Arrow
-Just powershield both and keep approaching.

ZAir > Quickdraw
-This one's kind of rare to see, but it does exist. Just try to powershield both, again.

ZDrop Bomb > ZGrab Bomb > ZDrop > ZGrab > ZDrop > Landing aerial or quickdraw
-This is the most annoying shield pressure I've ever experienced in Brawl aside from a diddy doing the same thing with a banana.
-There's a simple fix, powershielding the bomb. When you powershield a bomb it counts as hitting you so it blows up.
-If you can't manage to time the powershield, you can try to SH backwards OoS and attempt a FAir.
-This isn't technically part of his wall, but w/e.

Boomerang
-He can't do anything other than a boomerang when he SH's the boomerang and it has a fairly laggy start-up, so use the time to dash in for a quick approach.

Bombs in General
-Always always always make sure you powershield these.
-If they hit your shield, they will bounce which means the TLink can approach with NAir or BAir and DI far enough away that they can quickdraw and be safe from anything unless you powershield one of them..and then they have a bomb in hand on top of that.

Bomb thrown up
-I don't expect ROBs to run into a bomb thrown straight up..so don't..
-They provide a kind of timed bomb for TLink. If the SH UThrow a bomb, they can quickdraw when then land and then SH Bomb pull > Quickdraw and so long as they get the bomb out of their hand quickly, they can jump and get the other bomb then throw it at you quickly so now you have two bombs coming your way along with a TLink..just not fun. XD

Anyway..I'll actually probably try to get me vs TLink recorded some so the people having issues with TLinks wall can have a visual represntation.

#4 Diddy's Naners

Air dodge into it, then use air dodge's IASA frames to throw it.

Glide toss to whatever the hell you want.

SDI down during his nana-dash attack-u-smash and d-smash him out of it. SDI out of range or behind his f-smash, and all he has left is his grabs and d-smash as reliable combos out of nana glide toss.

At higher %, stay near the ledge. The banana, if it hits you, will cause you to fall off the stage and grab the ledge. Diddy has poor KO moves, and your gyro / laser spam from the end of the stage will do serious damage over time, and he can't combo into a kill move unless you let him since you automatically grab the edge! I believe he can still get a d-smash off after a glide toss of he's close enough, but you should see that coming.

Spot dodging a banana throw whne he's close causes the banana to go behind you. Abuse this by spot dodging his banana and preventing him from recovering it with carefully timed fairs; it's all about keeping him away from his banana.

Z-drop his banana and recatch it with any aerial to maintain control over one banana for as long as you want, just like you would with your gyro.

You can shoot a gyro with down+b while holding a banana, then glide toss forward with the banana, grab the gyro, then glide toss forward with that, and sometimes can even grab the banana again afterwards. Your mobility is huge!

Sheilding a banana works well if you perfect shield it and catch it. If you don't perfect shield it, I wouldn't bother catching it as the lag is enough for diddy to hit you with something when you fair in place.

If you have a banana but don't want to approach diddy for some reason, glide toss the banana straight down and laser / gyro. He has to dash attack the banana to pick it up, otherwise he has to walk next to it and hit A or air dodge into it. Any attempts to pick up the banana should result in getting f-tilted, lasered, gyro'd, or naired.

~ New Discussions ~



#5 Snake's Nades

We can explode the granades shooting a laser(but it can damage ROB with a wrong timming and when Snake throws the nade fast) and we can stop its way with the Gyro, but when it's missed, the nades becomes really annoying, Snake can get the stage control easier than every one with them.

Sometimes, the best choice is to approach, especially when it pillars u hardly. So, Dash > Shield, because when we attack, we explode the granade and it hurts us. At that situation, Snake can PS ur attack and even get hit by the nade.


The granades have many utilities. When Snake approaches with a nade > shield(then, tries to shield grab), ROB should grab him and throw fast with Fthrow. Then, hold shield so as not to get hit by it.

When used as an edge guard option, i don't find many problems, as ROB can avoid it by moving far from it with Up B, but well, he can drop a nade in the stage then Usmash. So, try to stay on the edge using Boost Hogging so as to receive invencibility frames.

When the granade is close to u, just shield(if Snake is also close to u, try something OoS when the nade explodes by itself). There isnt't a way to avoid them with attacks =0

#6 MK's Up B

On the ground we can't do anything to beat MK's Up B as it has invencibility frames. So, Power Shielding or even Spot dodging is the solution, but if MK could hit you, just try to skip from the Glide Attack that will probably follow it. If you get the PS or the Spot dodge, you can Jump rising an Uair, which will punish the Up B.


When he tries to hit you in the air you have three options:

A) Air Dodge
B) Perfect timming using Nair
C) Get hit

You're big, and will probably get hit by the Up B, but if not, after AD, I see Fast Falling > Shield as the best option, then try a Shield Grab if possible MK. If not, Ftilt OoS because its good range might punish him.


Just saying... Usmash and Bair have the same priority of the Glide Attack. So, if you avoid the Up B, you could also try these options.

Interesting post by GwJumpman


#7 Falco's SHDL

Personally, I don't powershield many lasers because I find it's just as effective (and easier) to airdodge from a distance or even spotdodge-inch up-spotdodge. You need to play gay to counteract a character who racks up most of his damage from lasers/chaingrabs. You need to perfectly space ftilt in order to get the most out of approaching through SHDL as it will save you from another round of it or even a phantasm away. If they try to escape before ftilt range take a step back and punish the landing

Other stuff by TheMike


#8 Snake's F/Utilt

DI Ftilt towards Snake and punish with Grab or Fsmash. When punishing with a Grab, you can either Fthrow, Bthrow or Dthrow. F/Bthrow to get him off stage. When Dthrowed, you can either follow up(Uair) or run away and spam again.

Ftilt OoS always work as a punishment when power shielded.
The same for Utilt.

#9 IC's Down B

Shoot Lasers(no Gyros!). If they blizzard the ledge, get up attack even when above 100%. When they a make a wall desyching with one above the plattform and the other below it, SDI away. You can also shoot laser if you're far from them. If they are using it, staggered as an approach, I would run away and shoot laser.

Thanks for everyone that discussed this. I'll soon list names.

#10 Pikachu's QAC & Thunder Jolt

For thunder jolt, powershielding is best from a distance, fair can cancel it out and nair will cancel it out and keep going through it. Read QAC. There are only so many directions that pikachu can move in, especially if the second direction is supposed to go into the ground. You can shield everything if you need to, just move away (or in the air, cover yourself with a nair), or maybe even try a Dsmash

 

[TheMike]

Reserved post.

 

[Sudai]

Just pick one and go. It won't happen otherwise.

 

[kingcobra9]

this already has bunches of info

 

[GwJ]

Grenade spam from Snakes, gogogo.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Grenade spam from Snakes, gogogo.

Laser when he whips em out, if you miss your chance, I'd shield the grenades if they're close (assuming Snake's not approaching) Sometimes I like to abuse ledge invincibility, jumping off the ledge, lasering, then re-grabbing. I do this until I snipe out a couple of grenades so I have an opening to get back on stage.

 

[Darth Waffles]

You can also go for the flashy airdodge-cancelling grab>throws, kind of like....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XddYTBwY9QU 1:37

 

[TheMike]

A conversation about Snake's nades started. So, we can discuss it. I'll edit the OP now.

 

[Tin Man]

Well we fire the laser at Snake's nades and watch them blow up in his face. The gyro (with a low charge) can block the nade which helps control the space in front of Snake, and a gyro with higher charge can also make them explode making the gyro fly up, while remaining intact. Snake's like to sheild drop the nades so aim the laser at his feet.

 

[Mr.E]

Snake's like to sheild drop the nades so aim the laser at his feet.

On this note, don't bother trying to shark Snake.

 

[Tin Man]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what u mean by shark. Please explain some1.

 

[Darth Waffles]

Sharking is when you attack from below the stage through the bottom level where you can't really be punished (like a shark). Some examples would be MK on Delfino or Halberd leaving the edge, moving under the middle of the stage, and upairing (the sword goes through the stage to hit the opponent), putting ROB (or anyone) in a bad position, or ROB/Puff floating under there waiting for an opportunity to upair

Basically it's another way to plank, this time underneath the stage with upairs or nairs instead of dairs lol

 

[TheMike]

We can explode the granades shooting a laser(but it can damage ROB with a wrong timming and when Snake throws the nade fast) and we can stop its way with the Gyro, but when it's missed, the nades becomes really annoying, Snake can get the stage control easier than every one with them.

Sometimes, the best choice is to approach, especially when it pillars u hardly. So, Dash > Shield, because when we attack, we explode the granade and it hurts us. At that situation, Snake can PS ur attack and even get hit by the nade.


The granades have many utilities. When Snake approaches with a nade > shield(then, tries to shield grab), ROB should grab him and throw fast with Fthrow. Then, hold shield so as not to get hit by it.

When used as an edge guard option, i don't find many problems, as ROB can avoid it by moving far from it with Up B, but well, he can drop a nade in the stage then Usmash. So, try to stay on the edge using Boost Hogging so as to receive invencibility frames.

When the granade is close to u, just shield(if Snake is also close to u, try something OoS when the nade explodes by itself). There isnt't a way to avoid them with attacks =0

 

[ipitydatfu]

everybody has been talking about laser as it comes out, and when you're faraway but what happens when it's thrown at you? do you have enough time to catch and throw back? etc etc

it is important to keep a mental note on how long each grenade has been out. that way you can assess what options you have when that grenade is heading your way. an unoticed cooked grenade can spell disaster.

i need more experience to go more indepth :/

just a bit of insight

 

[TheMike]

OP updated. Now, it's time to discuss MK's Up B.

GO! GO! GO!

 

[TheMike]

On the ground we can't do anything to beat MK's Up B as it has invencibility frames. So, Power Shielding or even Spot dodging is the solution, but if MK could hit you, just try to skip from the Glide Attack that will probably follow it. If you get the PS or the Spot dodge, you can Jump rising an Uair, which will punish the Up B.


When he tries to hit you in the air you have three options:

A) Air Dodge
B) Perfect timming using Nair
C) Get hit

You're big, and will probably get hit by the Up B, but if not, after AD, I see Fast Falling > Shield as the best option, then try a Shield Grab if possible MK. If not, Ftilt OoS because its good range might punish him.


Just saying... Usmash and Bair have the same priority of the Glide Attack. So, if you avoid the Up B, you could also try these options.

 

[GwJ]

This is coming from me and don't take anything I say as pure fact, but I want to explain how I handle MK's shuttle loops. When I'm above the stage (from mid-outer to mid) I don't Nair. In fact I almost never Nair unless I'm POSITIVE on the timing in which he will SL, which only happens when he's being predictable. I Fair or Bair as the timing is easier to manager and the hitbox lasts long enough to hit him. Bair is a personal favorite of mine.

As for offstage or the out edge of the stage, I don't get it. I almost never get killed by shuttle loop because I use ROB's Up B to my advantage. I chill on the stage and wait for him to make an opening whether it be through out of jumps, gliding, SL'ing, whatever. You need to be patient. You should never (almost) be trying to get around MK unless he's about to kill you. He's faster than you and more agile. You need to [air]camp. Pitch a mother ****ing tent in the sky and chill like a mother-****ing broken gyro stacking toy that works like a hose with a hole in it.

 

[TheMike]

This is coming from me and don't take anything I say as pure fact, but I want to explain how I handle MK's shuttle loops. When I'm above the stage (from mid-outer to mid) I don't Nair. In fact I almost never Nair unless I'm POSITIVE on the timing in which he will SL, which only happens when he's being predictable. I Fair or Bair as the timing is easier to manager and the hitbox lasts long enough to hit him. Bair is a personal favorite of mine.

Yeah, Bair is better, but i'm not sure if Fair really beats the Up B.

As for offstage or the out edge of the stage, I don't get it. I almost never get killed by shuttle loop because I use ROB's Up B to my advantage.

I forgot to say how i get back to the stage. Well, i try to use ROB's Up B the same way Snake players do. Then, i quickly get on the stage agin with Fast Fall so as not to be juggled, but if the MK player is faster than me, i do what i said in the other post =]

 

[TheMike]

I'll finish the discussion today. So, POST if u have something else to add to the discussion ^^

 

[koing]

sheild, dodge roll, run...like...hell XD

 

[GwJ]

lol at dodgerolling.

 

[Darth Waffles]

So... in short, we have three predictable options as stated by Mike. I've never gotten Bair to work and there's no reason that fair should possibly work, near the ground or falling down. I personally have a problem when MKs just wait/shield untilthe airdodge or nair is done, and invincibility frames beat Bair. I can get nair to connect against the shuttle loop but that stales my one "reliable" kill move in this matchup.

/hope

 

[GwJ]

Shuttle loop is one of those moves you HAVE to know is going to happen and when or you're going to be hit by it. You're gonna get hit a few times stupidy and you know that you could've dodged it. That's when you figure out what your opponent looks for to SL and don't let that situation happen/dodge it.

 

[TheMike]

Nice discussion. I'll keep it until next Saturday. I'm a little busy now >.< but i'll talk some more later i think ^^

 

[TheMike]

I'm preparing a better view of the OP, that's why this thread is "dead" lol but i'm also here to suggest discussing how to deal with Ike's Jab. What do u guys think?

 

[GwJ]

Don't get jabbed. As good as his jab is, you have no reason to be in Ike's face.

 

[jjvirus]

Don't get jabbed. As good as his jab is, you have no reason to be in Ike's face.

This.

I want to know how to get through Falco's SHDL...or the Gonzo Combo. Either one of the two would be nice...

 

[PSIQuasi]

close: Shield shuttle loop, spot dodge glide attack, to dmsash or whatever
Far : Gyro, laser (duh), or shield grab for close glide attack....

all I can think of...

 

[Mr.E]

This.

I want to know how to get through Falco's SHDL...

You get to play guessing games all day between trying to avoid the next laser or eating a Phantasm as he goes back to the other side of the stage once you close in. You have to be good at keeping him off-stage once you get him there to make up the damage.

EDIT: Oh, and if you shoot enough projectiles you'll start baiting his Reflector more frequently. Every second they waste doing something when you're approaching besides spam laser is a good thing. Just don't shoot a Gyro from too close and properly angle your lasers so they don't hit you back. :[

or the Gonzo Combo.

SDI/DI up on the UAir and jump away, problem solved.

 

[TheMike]

It can be Falco's SHDL as Mr. E started talking about it and i'll update the OP now.

 

[Darth Waffles]

Actually, Mr. E pretty much solved it too. I'll just mention the actual approaching part.

The projectiles thing he said is right. It feels great to charge a gyro into the ground, watch the reflector come out in front of you, cancel it, walk up and ftilt =) Falco's lasers are gayer than ROB's but ROB's is faster if you can hit with it.

Personally, I don't powershield many lasers because I find it's just as effective (and easier) to airdodge from a distance or even spotdodge-inch up-spotdodge. You need to play gay to counteract a character who racks up most of his damage from lasers/chaingrabs. You need to perfectly space ftilt in order to get the most out of approaching through SHDL as it will save you from another round of it or even a phantasm away. If they try to escape before ftilt range take a step back and punish the landing

 

[TheMike]

Our reflector is just too slow to avoid Falco's Blasters. So, we need to approach and the SHDL is very fast and can be a annoying move.

Personally, I don't powershield many lasers because I find it's just as effective (and easier) to airdodge from a distance or even spotdodge-inch up-spotdodge.

I'd rather approaching with Dash > Shield. AD could be very predicted and as I said before, the blasters are really fast and if we AD the first one, we may get hit by the second.

Approaching with Dash > Shield isn't bad, we just need to pay attention as Falco may mix up and grab us. So, stay at the correct range and Ftilt OoS when you have time for so.


Just saying, the blasters can stop our Gyro's way D:

 

[6Mizu]

Perfect sheilding works great on SHDL,but watch out for random dash attack or side b out of the blue.

 

[Sudai]

I learned to perfect shield 95% of the lasers after a 45 minute camp fest with Sethlon. It's not hard. Like was mentioned, just watch for the Dash Attack or Side-B. You should actually powershield those too (seriously, just learn to power shield Falco's predictable things and the match gets soooooooooooooo easy). PSign side-b makes it super easy to punish and if you ps a dash attack, you can grab it. If he tries to DACUS you'll grab armor his u-smash so long as you powershielded the dash attack.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I full-hop uncharged Gyro to avoid the SHDL and try to get it as close as possible to falco without actually touching him, PS'd Laser full charge gyro cold work too. Then he cant sideB past me or the Gyro will hit him out of it and if he does he'll have to do it higher to get by, that means more lag time on SideB which makes ROB happy. Then I just approach him and toss him off, Edgeguarding until he cant make it back.

 

[TheMike]

I'll be doing this again. Any suggestion for the next discussion?
If not, I'll simply put on for discussion what I would like to. :X

 

[6Mizu]

Are we gonna move on from this subject?

 

[TheMike]

Snake's F/Utilt.

GO GO GO.


How can we punish them OoS?
When DIed correct Ftilt, how to punish?
Is there a way to shield Ftilt1 and punish Ftilt2? How?

And others... Discuss!

 

[Tin Man]

Snake's F/Utilt.

GO GO GO.


How can we punish them OoS?

Ftilt OoS works

When DIed correct Ftilt, how to punish?

????? (iunno, anyone else?)

Is there a way to shield Ftilt1 and punish Ftilt2? How?

sheild #1, spotdodge then dsmash/grab punishing the lag of hit #2

And others... Discuss!

like the match-up synopsis said, out Ftilt can outs pace the 1st hit of snakes Ftilt, maybe not the second (I'm guessing not) but definitely the 1st, so use it as a primary spacing move, don't get close to snake, stay far away, and make sure you are good at camping, cause he is also just as good, F tilt is key in his close range game.

Don't stay too close to an edge because he will Ftilt u, hit #1 will get stopped by ur shield, but hit #2 will hit you as u tumble off the platform/edge >.>

Watch out for Ftilt ---> Ftilt, sometimes a snake will ftilt once, just hit #1, then do another full 2 hits while ur shield is still up, this eats up you shield, so make sure u can take a hit, or try and counter hit #2 like I said above.

 

[TheMike]

????? (iunno, anyone else?)2

You have to DI towards him, because he's going towards. Then, you'll be going to oppostie directions.

I've already heard about some japaneses(Snake Ditto) DIng correcty > Ftilt, then the other Snake also DIs correctly and Ftilt, repeat. This was posted here./

If that's possible, when DIed correctly, I think we can do Ftilt, Dsmash, Grab and maybe Fsmash. Not sure though.