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How to deal with a fast/agro Fox?

Kai-MW

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Messages
4
Location
North Eastern Ohio
How do I deal with a very fast/agro fox as falco? I can't seem to get lasers out in time because he's so close to me and if I shield I get super pressured or grabbed. It feels really suffocating trying to deal with a fox like this and I can't seem to deal with it very well
 

Ezlo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
64
Alright, so I'm no expert, but maybe my thoughts can help you out.

It seems to me like you're trying to play a campy strategy against an aggro strategy, and since our character is the slower one, that just doesn't work. Lasers are great to slow down your opponent, and they're great to help manipulate your opponent's actions, but you're right -- they suffer when your opponent is right up in your face, because of the long startup.

So, without lasers, you shield, which isn't a BAD option, but it's definitely limited, and it sounds like you're shielding... 'wrong,' if that makes sense. If you watch videos of really good players, you'll notice they don't shield for long periods of time almost ever, and when they do it's because they have very few other options. You should be shielding with the goal of getting out of shield asap. Practice your OoS options to make shielding better, but I think my next tip is most important.

Against any approach, you need to put up walling tools (utilt and bair for instance) preemptively. Otherwise, you'll be too late. This is a fox clip, but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEbo1FCKVc&t=8m48s
Leffen gets pushed into the corner, and rolls in after Mango's fair. Immediately, he utilts and traded with mango's bair.

There is NO way that Leffen reacted to Mango's bair -- he either threw out the utilt out of habit, or predicted mango's attack. If you want to beat out aggressive attacks, you need to be prepared for them ahead of time. Try analyzing one of your sets with an aggro fox, and figure out when you could have thrown out a preemptive utilt, bair, laser, ftilt -- whatever would have stuffed their attack.

Not the most detailed response, but I hope it helps! Try not to default to laser/shield in all situations, and practice stuffing attacks preemptively.
 

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
Practince doing turn around fadeback lasers and retreating aerials. The lasers are the most improtant thing though. You should really describe what he is doing more thouroughly, but generally falco gets run over if he is trying to do all his lasers and aerials moving forward at fox.

If this isnt helpful then you have to disect what he's doing better. Fox being aggro could mean a lot of things. Is he fullhoping over your lasers? Is he using running shine to knock you down? Is he just SHFFLing aerials? Is he shielding in your face and shining you oos? All these things have different counters so it would help if you can figure out if one of these things or all are your problem. Or something else entirely.
 
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Zekk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
180
well if you let an aggro fox walk over you you are playing his game I would try and learn his habits but start out baiting him and keep him in hit stun because aggro players dont usually have the best defense mostly just punish game as falco his shine and pillar combos along with tricking the fox with throws di dont only d throw trick them get to an edge wait for them to try and recover bair or dair
 

1000g2g3g4g800999

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Messages
368
Location
Earth
Shine OoS and CC shine are your friends. CC shine won't work vs drill or running shine but if you can build decent percent off of the first shine, your zoning tools become much more effective. Wavedash back can give you faster burst movement than dash, and you can use this to avoid a short hop approach that isn't overshot by a lot. AC bair, if somewhat pre-emptive, will take out short hop approaches, but you can also time a bair vs a fullhop approach provided they weren't about to land right on top. Sometimes, a fly through dair or nair might work, calling their approach. Utilts facing away can be good, but beware that at 0 Fox could jump into it, land, and then punish you.
 

Abszol

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 13, 2015
Messages
9
Location
New York
Ill contribute to this just because of the Upstate NY fox mentality of running in and abusing fox.
I break down every approach option that fox has and recognize when the Fox clearly has me in a corner.
What not to do when cornered.
1. Laser. If you do this, your either asking for a power sheild to punish, up smash if its too late before the laser comes out. That is also dependent if your going for a low laser or the higher up short hop ones. If ou laser, the fox might also jump behind to punish.
2. Randy smashes, panicking will lead to an easy follow up.

So what do you do?
I like to do either two options. Grab ledfe by wd back then take to plat forms, no tourny winner. Or I enjoy run off bairs or run off double lasers back. This is risky though since the fox might continue and shine you off.
Usually my first option is my fav or full hop slight retreat.

For the retreat keep in mind im not running and allowing the fox all of bottom stage. An agro fox doesnt consider all possibilities unless if there a pro. By this tactic, i will end up either on mod plat then fall down to laser or ftilt which is position dependent. Fmsash might be better than ftilt depending on there selected aerial. If grounded then ftilt.
I might also bait them to the platforms to follow up grab to death punish. If i up throw then i will either op for shine bair, bair or fair. Nair isnt my cup of tea for those since its weak and it doesnt send them far.

What about fd, since im talkin plats?
FD is laser country and until that fox ps or jumps ovet lasers, your a free bird. When hopping lasers, wd uptilt is amazing. As of late I have been developing up smash as a great tool. If weak upsmash and they flop onto the ground. Immediate uptilt bair will burry them.

Im not gonna go on further, this is looin like a falco vs fox matchup thread
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
1,948
Location
Hell
First off YOU DO NOT win this match up by running away from fox or staying on your shield, use your broken hitboxes like uptilt, backair and down air, and also lasers to wall him out, fox can't beat this stuff, all he can do is tricky dash dances/wavedashes to beat your timings, full hops or go to the platforms. Start lasering as soon as the match starts, if he powershields, learn to powershield back: SHL and then shield immediately afterwards, watch Zhu, he's really good at doing this. If he full hops, stay away and laser, watch if he drifts backwards or forwards as he lands, if he comes down with an aerial or lands empty. There's not a whole lot you can do to challenge fox's full hop, the only thing that comes to mind to try to beat that is upsmash, upair or jumping and timing a super risky shine to beat whatever move he throws up (which requires 20xx like timing) when coming down. In my opinion is better to deal with what fox does after the full hop.

Other useful things to learn in this match up:

Combos on flat stage and platforms (watch mango, west and ppmd). Learn to combo the crap out of fox cause every shine counts and can be a determinating factor on who wins or loses.

Shine oos, buffering roll, shine grab, double shine, shield drop. DIng fox's upthrow, SDIng fox's upair, SDing fox's thunder's combo, teching smartly on platforms after getting upthrowd, teching drillshine,
 
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